Tuks Tuks No Good!

[Wellington]

Absolutely; we need a bus service badly, besides the obvious it would save a lot of lives lost by young kids going to school on bikes they don't know how to use properly.

You have me curious, from where to where do young kids go to school on bikes where there are no buses?

I don't know the school's name ,but the road near Saphan Hin, which runs between the Immigration to the Driver Centre,

is full of bikes parked outside the school there.

Anyway, you are splitting hairs, the point is exaggerated ,yes,but still valid.

[stevenl]

Absolutely; we need a bus service badly, besides the obvious it would save a lot of lives lost by young kids going to school on bikes they don't know how to use properly.

You have me curious, from where to where do young kids go to school on bikes where there are no buses?

I don't know the school's name ,but the road near Saphan Hin, which runs between the Immigration to the Driver Centre,

is full of bikes parked outside the school there.

Anyway, you are splitting hairs, the point is exaggerated ,yes,but still valid.

Sorry, but Phuket Town as an example of where the busservice is missing :lol:

[LivinLOS]

LivinLOS...

ha ha ha.. Superb.. do you really think they are anywhere close to those board prices late at night ???

And thats forgetting about the many many times they agree one price.. drive off into the dark, then stop and demand far more to complete the journey..

I'm not saying that has never happened, but it doesn't happen enough to consider it a problem. I know it has happened to about 30 of your friends but unfortunately none of them are TV members so we never get any clarification. (why is it you have such a huge circle of friends yet as far as I can tell not one of them posts on here?)

Well if you were a member of Phuket info those same stories I cut and pasted on here are posted.. Plus I also know a lot of expats who dont do anything online at all..

And most dont post on Thaivisa because of the member base and moderation.. Something I am sure you have read if you had been on any other Thai forums like PI Teak Door etc..

as for this being a rare thing.. I would say it was 50% maybe 30% of the time.. If leaving town in the wee small hours to my old villa above Sun Hill hotel.. And thats with clarifying many many times before getting in that it was to the top of the hill. Its SOP.

LivinLOS....

So public parking is now theirs ?? And 'their turf' many of them have been on the island far less time than many of the expats I know.. Who also pay far more taxes to pay for those public spaces..

To be quite honest, yes I believe it is. If you park in a taxi rank in the UK or anywhere else in the world you'll get told to shove off in no uncertain terms. The fact that we are talking about areas that aren't specifically designated to Tuk tuks is irrelevent as far as I'm concerned. It's where they park every day and have done for years, which makes it their turf and who am I to tell them different. That doesn't obviously excuse the very rare times that unprovoked violence is used to move people on, but if you are asked nicely and still refuse then I have no sympathy for you if you get a whack.

Always been like this ?? Always means as far back as the tsunami does it ?? there was nothing like the tuk tuk problem going back 'years' back at 2000 or so there was less than half of them, now the entire beach rd is clogged on both sides end to end with tuktuks.. This isnt some old established tradition.. This is an issue only of recent history and growing.

The reason being each one pays abotu 10k per month to the tuk tuk federation of which Pain (via his son) controls, along with the fact that large amounts of the vehicles are leased via a senior policemens leasing company.. So its in their interest to have 1000 tuk tuks, each only doing one fare a day, each charging a 1000 baht a fare.. Screw supply and demand, if they can make tuktuks the only choice, if they can wield such power to blockade hotels, and therefore force such high rates on unwilling consumers, then it benefits Pian, and so why does he care if it is a major stumbling block for the island. Hes getting rich.

And that 10k a month payment.. That buys them something.. That buys them the right to threaten, it buys them protection from police enforcing laws, it buys them the right to play bully boy politics.. And as far as a significant minority of the ones working Patong, thats a perk of the job, its part of its appeal..

you say 'the rare occasions' go try to park almost anywhere in Patong (outside of the paid parking and jungceylon) and see how 'rare' it is.. Those roads belong to everyone, those are not turfs and pitches.. They have turfs and allocated pitches ALSO.. those are just regular parking spaces, the few remaining pieces of public parking, but theres so many tuktuks, not carrying fares, they want those too. Parking in one gets an immediate 'rare occurrence' of criminal behaviour.. Pretty much every time.. How rare is that ?? If they dont front up and threaten or assualt they do commit criminal damage to the vehicle.

As for paying taxes...If you are looking for a place were paying taxes gives you equal rights, ability to own land and demand bus services etc etc. then in case you hadn't noticed, you have come to the wrong place. You arrogantly state that some expats have been here longer than the tuk tuk drivers, so what? Phuket has been the way it is long before we were here, even the real long termers, so it is us that need to adapt not the island.

Phuket is not the way it was when we came here.. In case your missing the point.. Its become this way.. it wasnt like that in the 90's, it wasnt even nearly as bad in the early part of the millennium.. But the culture of greed has grown stronger and stronger. Its rapidly accelerated post tsunami.

And yes, while I dont have any high hopes, I do think that if resident in a country, for a decade, married, have kids, etc etc etc.. there should be some system by which you have the right to become a legal citizen, with the equal rights under law that this means.. Is that such a strange thing to think ?? Is that fairness so odd to expect it to apply ?? Why is it 'we' the countries of the west are held to those standards and Thais should not be ??

Edited October 22, 2010 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

Absolutely; we need a bus service badly, besides the obvious it would save a lot of lives lost by young kids going to school on bikes they don't know how to use properly.

You have me curious, from where to where do young kids go to school on bikes where there are no buses?

I don't know the school's name ,but the road near Saphan Hin, which runs between the Immigration to the Driver Centre,

is full of bikes parked outside the school there.

Anyway, you are splitting hairs, the point is exaggerated ,yes,but still valid.

Sorry, but Phuket Town as an example of where the busservice is missing :lol:

Of course they tolerate busses in Phuket town as they wont pay the tuktuk fares anyway.. So no need to beat up drivers, threaten companys management and do the usual MO of the cartel.. They reserve that for the hotels with westerners in them where to get out of the hotel costs 2 days Thai min wage.

[LivinLOS]

"The point is Phuket is different to anywhere I know. Not all of those differences can be good, but nearly all of them are and that's good enough for me. I think it's high time people stopped letting Tuk tuks get them down so much."

Nice try

Well it's their choice, but I assure you things won't change any time soon. Make other arrangements and forget they even exist is the only way to go.

If only it were so simple.. I do make other arrangement.. I have my own car.. But then they wont let me park it anywhere when I try to use it !!!

Of course living in Bang Tao you dont experience this day in day out.. so its fair that you dont know.

[madmitch]

There are a couple of comments on here implying that posters have used motorbike taxis in the Kata/Karon area.

Can someone please let me know where the motorbike queues are because I always thought that they were not allowed by the Karon/Kata tuktuk co-operative.

Unless you rely on flagging down a passing Patong or Phuket Town rider.

[stevenl]

Of course they tolerate busses in Phuket town as they wont pay the tuktuk fares anyway.. So no need to beat up drivers, threaten companys management and do the usual MO of the cartel.. They reserve that for the hotels with westerners in them where to get out of the hotel costs 2 days Thai min wage.

That has nothing to do with Wellington's remark nor my reaction to that remark. But who cares, as long as you can voice your rants against anything you don't like.

[LivinLOS]

Your mocking Wellingtons comment, by saying there is a bus service in phuket town correct ??

I was explaining why the cartels tolerate a bus service there..

Are either of those statements out ??

[BangTaoBoy]

Of course living in Bang Tao you dont experience this day in day out.. so its fair that you dont know.

You've hit the nail on the head mate. We should all be making decisions as to what's best for us and what is most likely to make us happy. It seems as if a lot of people aren't very good at this.

I go to Patong regularly, and as you mentioned there is ample parking in Jungceylon, so what's the issue? I know where I can park, I know how to treat certain people, who to avoid completely and as aresult live a very grief free life.

I understand that it's different for people who work and pay taxes, but to me that is still not a valid arguement. It's your responsibility to know what you need to know about the place you live and work before you go there, and if it doesn't fit with you, you go somewhere else. I find it very strange that someone like yourself is still harping on about equal rights for tax payers. It has never been and never will, why keep beating yourself up over it instead of accepting the way it is and always will be.

Your favourite argument of how things are getting worse all the time to me is a weak argument as well. I've spent a lot of time here as well although probably nowhere near as much as you, and to be honest I haven't really noticed any changes other than new buildings and roads etc but the way I live my life, adapting to my surroundings, keeping myself to myself, avoiding things likely to make me angry, then to be honest the amount of tuk tuks could double every week and I wouldn't even notice.

[stevenl]

Your mocking Wellingtons comment, by saying there is a bus service in phuket town correct ??

I was explaining why the cartels tolerate a bus service there..

Are either of those statements out ??

Not completely. Wellington claimed a regular busservice in stead of/besides tuktuk's would save school children's lives because they would not have to ride their bikes anymore, I can't see where that would be the case. He indicated Phuket Town, which is of course a strange example.

So if you meant to indicate the same you're correct, but I'm getting real tired of reading your statements about tuktuk drivers beating up people, threatening everybody, mafia style, westerners are discriminated against, etc., so I simply skip those remarks from you, which just leaves your hollow phrases.

[Samuian]

some years back Puket Town down to Patong, near where th emini bus stopped, 500.- everyones offer, wlked back a bit away fromthere... tuk-tuk came honked 300.- nope 250 okay -okay!

But then he started the "have room story"....

[Wellington]

Your mocking Wellingtons comment, by saying there is a bus service in phuket town correct ??

I was explaining why the cartels tolerate a bus service there..

Are either of those statements out ??

Not completely. Wellington claimed a regular busservice in stead of/besides tuktuk's would save school children's lives because they would not have to ride their bikes anymore, I can't see where that would be the case. He indicated Phuket Town, which is of course a strange example.

So if you meant to indicate the same you're correct, but I'm getting real tired of reading your statements about tuktuk drivers beating up people, threatening everybody, mafia style, westerners are discriminated against, etc., so I simply skip those remarks from you, which just leaves your hollow phrases.

The school in Phuket Town may include children who use the bus.

Idid not say there were no buses in the Town

But if you drive by that school at emptying time any day the road is a seething mass of inexperienced kids,three up,in most cases tearing up and down to get home

You missed the point.

If they had a road code.proper tuition.lights that worked and on and on there might be a great leap to more safety on Phuket's roads.

[schlog]

It is not a weak argument it is a fact. I am living here on Phuket now more than 20 years and the last years it is getting worse year by year especially Patong. The good days of a relaxing Patong with Saloon bar........nice people...are long over. If Patong is not a mafia controlled town so it must be the town of good faith.

But Patong and its ticks is not Thailand and i am still happy to live here.

Edited October 22, 2010 by schlog

[KarenBravo]

Have to agree. the tuk-tuk situation has got worse in just a few years.

Prices rocketed when oil hit US$147 a barrel. Now that it is just over half that, prices still haven't come down.

As LoS pointed out. It's the big-wigs that rent out the tuk-tuks that are the cause. They have no incentive to change as they are minting money at the moment.

That's why only an edict from Bangkok will fix the situation.

Edited October 22, 2010 by KarenBravo

[BangTaoBoy]

You missed the point.

If they had a road code.proper tuition.lights that worked and on and on there might be a great leap to more safety on Phuket's roads.

Talking of roads, what a U turn that was. That isn't what you said at all! There was no mention of road codes and tuition. You made the connection between Tuk tuks and the lack of busses and kids on bikes. You then gave Phuket town as an example, which is what 'Stevenl' was questioning.

The truth is, even if busses ran all over the island and there were no tuk tuks, locals would still use bikes, kids as well, so I don't think it was a great argument in the first place. It wouldn't stop the vast majority of people having cars who can afford them so it wouldn't stop people on lower incomes having bikes.

This is something I think people overlook. There isn't actually a great market for busses. Most of us have cars, those who can't afford them have bikes and tourists have the tuk tuks. I think you'll find most tourists don't want to stand at a bus stop in the mid day sun, waiting for a ricketty old bus, that will then take an hour to go 2 miles.

[stevenl]

The school in Phuket Town may include children who use the bus.

Idid not say there were no buses in the Town

But if you drive by that school at emptying time any day the road is a seething mass of inexperienced kids,three up,in most cases tearing up and down to get home

You missed the point.

If they had a road code.proper tuition.lights that worked and on and on there might be a great leap to more safety on Phuket's roads.

We were talking about tuktuk's, and in relation to that about buses. You claimed that with more buses schoolchildren would be safer. You gave an example of a Phuket Town school, which makes no sense at all in that respect, and now you say you gave that example because more road tuition is needed. While I agree with you, I also doubt that would help much, but that really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

So yes, I missed your point, because your point has nothing at all to do with this thread, plus in your post you made no reference at all to what your point really was.

So thanks very much for your explanation.

[petercallen]

Have to agree. the tuk-tuk situation has got worse in just a few years.

Prices rocketed when oil hit US$147 a barrel. Now that it is just over half that, prices still haven't come down.

As LoS pointed out. It's the big-wigs that rent out the tuk-tuks that are the cause. They have no incentive to change as they are minting money at the moment.

That's why only an edict from Bangkok will fix the situation.

I thought the prices rocketed when they made the streets one way in Patong,

It cannot be the price of fuel, they run on the smell of it.

[KarenBravo]

I thought the prices rocketed when they made the streets one way in Patong,

It cannot be the price of fuel, they run on the smell of it.

That was an excuse for another series of price hikes.

Another contributing factor as to why prices have more than doubled in only a few years.

[LivinLOS]

Of course living in Bang Tao you dont experience this day in day out.. so its fair that you dont know.

You've hit the nail on the head mate. We should all be making decisions as to what's best for us and what is most likely to make us happy. It seems as if a lot of people aren't very good at this

Totally agreed.. We are the lucky ones, who control our own destiny... And if we feel the crime and other aspects are making the island less appealing than anywhere else, its within our power to change it. Something I am doing.

However that doesnt mean your not allowed an opinion on the negative aspects. it just means you must learn to minimize them in your life.

I go to Patong regularly, and as you mentioned there is ample parking in Jungceylon, so what's the issue? I know where I can park, I know how to treat certain people, who to avoid completely and as aresult live a very grief free life.

Patong has been my main town for 9 years, I have lived in satellite villages for a few of those years but its always been my 'hub'

(now aint that Thai marketing 101) for basic goods and services. So that changes to the town, both good and bad have been visible to me, in a way they probably are not to someone living in Nai Harn or Surin.

So I can park in Jungceylon (but not at night) thats great, if I want to go to jungceylon.. But what about the whole rest of town ?? How about everywhere else ?? Hence you keep a bike too, with the added risks of a bike, simply because a car isnt practical (this was one issue for my mum, bikes were intimidating cars impractical).

Going back a bunch of years a buddy got a new fortuna, being pleased with it and new he was trying to use it day to day. He parked over from the offshore in front of what is now the Nanai jungle sauna of recently passed Nick. This was not in front of the MB taxi stand, it was on a normal road, legally parked.. They told him to move it, he speaks fluent Thai and asked them why, its not bothering them, its not in front of them.. They wanted it moved.. So he shifted it a further 5m or so.. Now the car is maybe 8 or 10m away from them. They however decided it was obscuring their view of the road, went and keyed it all round and spiked 2 of the tyres on the non visible side. Because he parked 10m away.. Because it was 'in their view'.. Thats day to day car use in Patong.

I understand that it's different for people who work and pay taxes, but to me that is still not a valid arguement. It's your responsibility to know what you need to know about the place you live and work before you go there, and if it doesn't fit with you, you go somewhere else. I find it very strange that someone like yourself is still harping on about equal rights for tax payers. It has never been and never will, why keep beating yourself up over it instead of accepting the way it is and always will be.

I am not harping on.. I know thats how it is, and accept it.. But accepting it and agreeing with it, are not the same. I do think its basically unfair. You were the one who brought up equal rights etc and I just said that I think its unfair. Yes if someones resident, and pays taxes, has a family etc, they should have equal rights, equal rights to park in a space and use public roads. The whole 'this my country, you.. farang.. move' gets a bit old, especially when its coming from some non island Thai who may have been there a few months trying to get rich quick on the back of the same farang economy.

Your favourite argument of how things are getting worse all the time to me is a weak argument as well. I've spent a lot of time here as well although probably nowhere near as much as you, and to be honest I haven't really noticed any changes other than new buildings and roads etc but the way I live my life, adapting to my surroundings, keeping myself to myself, avoiding things likely to make me angry, then to be honest the amount of tuk tuks could double every week and I wouldn't even notice.

Well if you havent noticed changes, Bang Tao must be nice and peaceful, well done !! The last statement that they could double weekly and you wouldnt notice is of course rubbish.. Put double and then double, unemployed males around, and watch crime rocket (even more).

This year or 2 I have seen an exodus of long term expats at a rate I hadnt seen ever before, and those are not expats leaving for cheaper places they are cashed up guys trying to find a place more peaceful and safer. 2 of them have even packed up leaving empty houses unsold simply to get away. Now if thats really the case, I wonder why they are so keen to leave ??

[LivinLOS]

That has nothing to do with Wellington's remark nor my reaction to that remark.

So if you meant to indicate the same you're correct

:jap:

[LivinLOS]

If they had a road code.proper tuition.lights that worked and on and on there might be a great leap to more safety on Phuket's roads.

I think its a lot more the sporadic implementation of law.. Police work isnt police work as we think of it.. Its random fine collecting, mixed in with being paid to allow law breaking (bar openings, bar noise, nudity, prostitution, etc).. So theres no problem with a policeman standing there watching 3 up 14 year olds on an uninsured scooter with no license or helmets speeding off, as long as hes not in fine collecting mode on the 15th or 30th of the month. Sure it would save lives, but where the policemans upside in enforcing that law.

The same goes for all other rules, the tessabaan is not in the business of controlling building codes, hes in the business of being paid to tolerate the breaking of those codes, with the cost to break them depending on their severity and the 'juice' of the applicant.

When this is the basic fabric of society, things stop being about right and wrong, and start being about power and connections. And all rules be they traffic, building, or any other social construct become grey and opaque.

Then you have the rules that are allowed to be broken, because they are just poor Thais.. The cop who grew up being carted about 3 up helmetless on a scooter isnt likely to see much reason to stop the practice, no matter what the law says. Hence we have the ridiculous amount of road death, I was chatting with a nice Thai fella the other day and he said in his gang of mates 9 died in their teens on the roads !! 9 of his close circle.. 3 in one day !! Start thinking about the numbers and it just boggles the mind.

All we can do is drive defensively, own a safe vehicle and be fully insured (tho they often refuse to pay the blood money) cos they wont be changing in the near term, and it requires a radical change is the whole thinking and policing, a huge leap.

[LivinLOS]

You missed the point.

If they had a road code.proper tuition.lights that worked and on and on there might be a great leap to more safety on Phuket's roads.

Talking of roads, what a U turn that was. That isn't what you said at all! There was no mention of road codes and tuition. You made the connection between Tuk tuks and the lack of busses and kids on bikes. You then gave Phuket town as an example, which is what 'Stevenl' was questioning.

The truth is, even if busses ran all over the island and there were no tuk tuks, locals would still use bikes, kids as well, so I don't think it was a great argument in the first place. It wouldn't stop the vast majority of people having cars who can afford them so it wouldn't stop people on lower incomes having bikes.

This is something I think people overlook. There isn't actually a great market for busses. Most of us have cars, those who can't afford them have bikes and tourists have the tuk tuks. I think you'll find most tourists don't want to stand at a bus stop in the mid day sun, waiting for a ricketty old bus, that will then take an hour to go 2 miles.

So your saying, that if there was an efficient school bus system, no one would use it and they would still choose illegal bikes ?? Not even one life would be saved ??

Of course the roads are relevant.. Roads are dangerous, and a lack of options puts kids on bikes. Sure some would do it aznyway, bt many do it due t no choice.

Tourists dont stand in the sun in Pattaya for more than a minute or two, and a rotating baht bus would be perfect for Patongs one way and could halve the tuktuks, thereby making the current ones carry more fares, thereby reducing prices to a market level.

But Pian and Co wouldnt make about 5 or 6 mil a month in tuktuk 'association fees'.

[LivinLOS]

I thought the prices rocketed when they made the streets one way in Patong,

It cannot be the price of fuel, they run on the smell of it.

That was an excuse for another series of price hikes.

Another contributing factor as to why prices have more than doubled in only a few years.

Theres a constantly evolving series of reasons.. The real reason is theres way to many of them..

A taxi driver who I was once related to was sat outside of a hotel in the north, he spotted me and called me over so I went and chatted with them for half hour or so, he had given up a job doing deckchairs to join the taxi federation, they had a 'deal' where the hotel (trapped on south Nai Yang) couldnt use any other transport. But they were moaning, saying they only got maybe 1 fare a day, but that was enough for them in Nai Thon, no problem.

Thats a broken system.. When 3 fully grown men are sitting around, to do maybe an hours work a day, to each have a car to pay for, and hence the customers have to pay such crazy rates than an hours work supports a man and his family. Hes not getting rich, its hindering everyone, its inefficient use of labour, etc etc.. Disrupt a free market and create a problem.

[stevenl]

So your saying, that if there was an efficient school bus system, no one would use it and they would still choose illegal bikes ??

Wellington started talking about Phuket Town, where there happens to be an efficient bus system. Some kids take the bus, public or school, and some take the bike.

A bus system between the beaches would hardly help to increase safety for school children.

[geriatrickid]

Boycotting the tuk tuks won't achieve anything. There will always be some desperate naive torist showing up that will get ripped off. Boycott the companies that advertise on the tuk ts and let the companies know you are staying away because they support the tuk t crooks. There are a couple foreigner focused restaurants; K****n's and B*****o that are big advertisers on the Patong Tuk ts. If they see that the association is pissing off the target market, they'll say screw the advertising expenditure. I have refused 5X in the past 1/2 years to accept invitations to eat at K*****n's, instead causing the group to dine elsewhere. As for B****o, their meat is poor quality, so I avoid the place simply because it's expensive crap.

[BIGTOE3]

As they say in Thailand " UP TO YOU" so I have deceided due to the problems with the Tuk TUK ETC that I will NOT go back to Phuket and have advised many people to go elsewhere for a holiday if more people do this perhaps may be things will change.

BT

[iSabai]

As they say in Thailand " UP TO YOU" so I have deceided due to the problems with the Tuk TUK ETC that I will NOT go back to Phuket and have advised many people to go elsewhere for a holiday if more people do this perhaps may be things will change.

BT

Reasonable choice for some, but wishful thinking that enough people will follow suit, IMO, to make a difference.

I just avoid using tuk tuks.

[pmgthailand]

Taking away the small minority of drivers who have been involved in attacks on tourists, the vast majority are normal working guys. It is getting quite pathetic now how nobody can use the word tuk tuk without throwing the word mafia around. You've lived a very sheltered life if you think a group of taxi drivers controlling their market by bribing officials constitutes a mafia. The word mafia is now used to talk about boys selling deck chairs! Pathetic.

As for prices, they are about right. This is a tourist island and they have every right to charge tourist prices. The prices are clearly displayed on boards so it is unlikely you will be over charged.

As for their ranks. I think you are being very naive if you think you have the right to park in the places used by tuk tuks. It doesn't matter if they are officially designated spaces or public spaces, it's their turf, don't lay claim to it, because you will loose.

As for the people whose only vaguely legitimate complaint is the lack of a cheaper alternative, tuff luck. Get a car, bike, use bike taxis or move. You can't have a place like Phuket and then expect to have a normal bus service. You'll be expecting a free bus pass when you hit 65 next!

I am confused with your post, on an early post you stated that your own home area was not good so surely if something is NOT right it should be fixed period.

Why should tourists be ripped off ? Why should public areas be off limits to the majority of the resident population as a whole ?

If its NOT right it is NOT RIGHT PERIOD.

BT

Hear Hear!!!

I have lived and worked in Phuket for 5 years. IMO this place gets worse every year. What I cannot understand, is ex-pats that come on the forum defending the place. Are they blind, it is only getting worse. More violent robberies, burglaries, shootings, murders, crazy drivers on the roads every month, polluted beaches, garbage everywhere, drugs, whores etc... I could go on but I won't, open your eyes before you become just another statistic. This island is not paradise, but like everything else in Thailand it is only an illusion.

[BangTaoBoy]

If they had a road code.proper tuition.lights that worked and on and on there might be a great leap to more safety on Phuket's roads.

I think its a lot more the sporadic implementation of law.. Police work isnt police work as we think of it.. Its random fine collecting, mixed in with being paid to allow law breaking (bar openings, bar noise, nudity, prostitution, etc).. So theres no problem with a policeman standing there watching 3 up 14 year olds on an uninsured scooter with no license or helmets speeding off, as long as hes not in fine collecting mode on the 15th or 30th of the month. Sure it would save lives, but where the policemans upside in enforcing that law.

The same goes for all other rules, the tessabaan is not in the business of controlling building codes, hes in the business of being paid to tolerate the breaking of those codes, with the cost to break them depending on their severity and the 'juice' of the applicant.

When this is the basic fabric of society, things stop being about right and wrong, and start being about power and connections. And all rules be they traffic, building, or any other social construct become grey and opaque.

Then you have the rules that are allowed to be broken, because they are just poor Thais.. The cop who grew up being carted about 3 up helmetless on a scooter isnt likely to see much reason to stop the practice, no matter what the law says. Hence we have the ridiculous amount of road death, I was chatting with a nice Thai fella the other day and he said in his gang of mates 9 died in their teens on the roads !! 9 of his close circle.. 3 in one day !! Start thinking about the numbers and it just boggles the mind.

All we can do is drive defensively, own a safe vehicle and be fully insured (tho they often refuse to pay the blood money) cos they wont be changing in the near term, and it requires a radical change is the whole thinking and policing, a huge leap.

I just don't get you. You've just done nothing but describe the place and the way it's always been. You sound like a fresh off the plane tourist, which we all know you are not. We all know how the politics work here. We know there's corruption, we know that people with power abuse it. We know it's all about who you know not what you know. We know Farangs will never have equal rights. We all know these things and always have. Yes as you said, of course you have the right to moan about them, but honestly, what is the point? It just makes you sound like a naive newbie.

Everyone compares Phuket to their country back in Europe or USA or OZ, and thinks Phuket needs to change. This is a rich tourist area in a developing country in south east Asia.

Myanmar is just a few miles away, yet there they keep democratically elected prime ministers under house arrest for decades on end. Makes a greedy group of taxi drivers look quite unoffensive really doesn't it.

[BangTaoBoy]

So your saying, that if there was an efficient school bus system, no one would use it and they would still choose illegal bikes ?? Not even one life would be saved ??

For the best part, yes I am. People the world over don't particularly like busses, they use them as a very last resort. People who can afford cars will always get cars, people who can afford bikes (which is nearly everyone) will always get bikes. They won't care about the dangers, it's about having a sense of freedom, and the ability to travel independently. Expecting Thais to get off their bikes and on busses is no different to you selling your car to use the bus, would that happen if there was a bus service??