Single Thai Mother

[mpdkorat]

I have just been asked by a Thai female friend of mine what are her options. Two months ago she gave birth to a child, the father being an English guy living in Thailand. The father was supporting the mother up to about 4 months ago but he changed his mind and wanted nothing to do with the child, after saying he really wanted it and was looking forward to the birth. This persuaded the mother not have an abortion. The father refuses to have any contacted with the mother and makes no financial contribution towards the care of his child. The mother is on a limited income as she is a factory worker. She would like the father to assist her financially in the bringing up of this child. What are her options?

[Jai Dee]

If he is definitely the biological father of the child, then it is his moral duty to support her.

Not sure what her options are apart from perhaps getting advice from the Bristish Embassy, but maintaining anonymity until she finds out all options and decides on a course of action.

[bkkmadness]

I don't think there is many options are there? There is no CSA here or anything, I think its bad luck on her part, the poor girl. What an a.sshole guy.

Jai Dee is right, its his moral duty to support her but legally I don't think she has a leg to stand on does she?

[mpdkorat]

If he is definitely the biological father of the child, then it is his moral duty to support her.

Not sure what her options are apart from perhaps getting advice from the Bristish Embassy, but maintaining anonymity until she finds out all options and decides on a course of action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He is the father all right, has some tangible property in Thailand in a company name. I presume blood testing will be required to prove he is the Father, but in this case just a formality as he is.

[mpdkorat]

I don't think there is many options are there?  There is no CSA here or anything, I think its bad luck on her part, the poor girl.  What an a.sshole guy.

Jai Dee is right, its his moral duty to support her but legally I don't think she has a leg to stand on does she?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do tend to agree with you, it is a difficult situation thats why I came on here to pick all your brains. This guy does have assets in this country in a form of a house and a business. It should never have come to this. If he just gave a monthly allowance to help. He could have then visited the kid and been part of the upbringing. Made it a joyfull thing rather than just running away.

[think_too_mut]

I don't think there is many options are there?  There is no CSA here or anything, I think its bad luck on her part, the poor girl.  What an a.sshole guy.

Jai Dee is right, its his moral duty to support her but legally I don't think she has a leg to stand on does she?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If she takes him to the court and wins - the verdict would be - he'll have to pay for child's support 30 (thirty) baht per day.

From a regular expat talk on the boards I gathered that with a lawyer, she stands a better chance if she goes through the UK Ambassy, unless the father is already stripped off of all his UK rights (no passport, property, no pension from there, no intention to visit UK again).

[JoJo]

well, there are always 2 sides to a story.

It could be she got pregnant on purpose to "trap" this guy and now he realises it, does not want anything to do with her nor child. That's also a possibility....it does and has happen! Either which way, the man is an arse.

Another possibility is that the child may not be his or he may suspect so. A simple DNA test would rectify things. However, how would she be able to convince him to do it and who is going to pay for it?

Note : I am not saying he is not nor trying to say anything negative about the Thai woman.

I think I agree with bkkmadness, I doubt she can do anything about it. I doubt the embassy would want to get involved, esp the British Embassy, not without proof anyway.

I do hope it works out for her. Perhaps her family can help out.......

Edited August 17, 2005 by JoJo

[The_Moog]

Moral duty is irrelevant here.

There is a Legal responsibility for a UK man fathering children, and, yes, under the Law as it applies to him, she would win her case.

Obviously she has to have the financial resources to pursue the case.

< A Barrister friend in Hong Kong was always nobbing Filipinas , and petrified that one would conceive, as he said she would undoubtedly win a paternity case and be awarded a lot of money>

[think_too_mut]

Moral duty is irrelevant here. 

There is a Legal responsibility for a UK man fathering children, and, yes,  under the Law as it applies to him, she would win her case.

Obviously she has to have the financial resources to pursue the case.

< A Barrister friend in Hong Kong was always nobbing Filipinas , and petrified that one would conceive, as he said she would undoubtedly win a paternity case and be awarded a lot of money>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, after years on Thai related boards and reading thousands of posts on similar matters, it somehow peaks out that UK, US and Oz are notorious (among irresponsible fathers) for nailing them down no matter where they are.

Can't remember who posted it (or was it in Stick's column or Readers' Submissions 3years ago) that local lawyers would do the case even if the woman has no means of paying them - knowing they'll surely win and then recoup their fees.

Somebody even posted that a Thai lawyer flew biz class to the US to meet with the runaway father's lawyer (at the father's expense, it turned at the end).

IMO, the unlucky mother is not totally helpless, even some amateur guidance would point her in the right direction and make a contact with someone who can help her.

[The_Moog]

She needs to talk to a Lawyer who has a specialty in Family Law, (or to a Lawyer who can refer her to one)

She will definitely win her case against a UK man if the facts you've described are true.

legally I don't think she has a leg to stand on does she?

The good news is that this is not correct. The Law will protect girls in this position.

Lucky its a British Father and not a Thai one. I don't know if Thai Law has the same provisions.

**Furthermore if he has assets here, then you simply get the bailiffs in to enforce judgement - and take all the furniture and computers etc....<sweet!>

Edited August 17, 2005 by The_Moog

[bangbuathongben]

This persuaded the mother not have an abortion

Just wondering getting off the subject in hand slightly, is this not highly illegal in Thailand??????

On the other hand poor girl, if her story is true!

Bang.........

Edited August 17, 2005 by bangbuathongben

[tuky]

Just wondering getting off the subject in hand slightly, is this not highly illegal in Thailand??????

Bang.........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bangbuathongben, it is illegal in Thailand.

Thankfully the young lady didn't have to go that route, unluckily she chose the wrong farang guy and now has been left in a mess.

Off topic - and detracts from a very important theme about protecting the rights of Thai women.

Please keep this on topic folks.

Edited August 17, 2005 by tukyleith

[sriracha john]

I don't think there is many options are there?  There is no CSA here or anything, I think its bad luck on her part, the poor girl.  What an a.sshole guy.

Jai Dee is right, its his moral duty to support her but legally I don't think she has a leg to stand on does she?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If she takes him to the court and wins - the verdict would be - he'll have to pay for child's support 30 (thirty) baht per day.

From a regular expat talk on the boards I gathered that with a lawyer, she stands a better chance if she goes through the UK Ambassy, unless the father is already stripped off of all his UK rights (no passport, property, no pension from there, no intention to visit UK again).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A recent news report of a well-to-do aged Thai man being court-ordered to pay 40,000 baht per month to the mother of his child until the child reaches 18. So any judgment is definitely tied to financial resources.

I would strongly encourage her to contact a lawyer at the earliest possible date. If unable to pay (factory workers don't make much), I would encourage her to contact the Law Society of Thailand for a pro-bono.

He can be ordered to undergo paternity testing and be required to pay support.

[The_Moog]

It really is of the utmost importance that all male readers know that if you father children in Asia you may encounter a lifelong financial liability.

Yes, the girl might be a simple heart with no legal wherewithal,

.... it might be a one-night stand,

The lawyers will handle all the unpleasantness on her behalf. Access to lawyers is much easier than it once was, especially on a 'no-win no-fee' basis.

[uncle paul]

i hope he has to pay: if he is the biological father

something from the phuket gazzete

Obtaining child support from missing father

A friend in Phuket is pregnant and, apparently, the father is a foreign serviceman. If the father doesn’t live up to his paternal responsibilities, what legal recourse does my friend have to force him to financially support their child? Are there any “Status of Forces” arrangements that could help her situation?

Friday, December 7, 2001 Stephen Vandale, San Diego.

“First, your friend will have to apply to the Family Court for the serviceman to be legally recognized as the father of the child.

Once this is done, your friend can petition the Family Court for him to pay child support.

If the father is not in Thailand, the court will liaise with the appropriate Embassy in determining if it is possible to force the father to pay child support.”

Friday, December 7, 2001 Nakin Themrat, Senior Partner, International Law Office.

something from stickmans site

When it comes to these two issues, the absolute best advice that I can give is "wrap that rascal" - because if you become a Daddy you can end up paying for a minimum of 18 years. Don't think that you will be getting off the hook by going back to the US of A, Australia, New Zealand, Germany or wherever you might hail from in the free world.

At the current time in Thailand, child support is primarily awarded in the event of a divorce. The laws can be interpreted to include de facto relationships as well as the proverbial one night stand, no matter how many times you "stood up" during the session. Regardless of all the legal jargon and technicalities, at the current time, the enforcement of child support in Thailand is a rather hit and miss proposition, but you can expect that to change over the next five years. Foreigners that remain in Thailand for any reason and under any type of visa plan can expect to bear the brunt of enforcement activities because they traditionally earn more than the average Thai bloke that has a child support order. However, under the current schemes in Thailand, someone that is owed child support can typically lodge a complaint with the local police and the obligor (person that owes child support) can find himself answering to that complaint. The easiest answer is of course to pay.

If you became a Daddy and decided to go back to your home country you are not going to avoid taking care of the child that you leave behind. Many fathers have been successfully pursued in their home countries for child support which is then sent back to the home country of the mother and child.

Here is how it works: Either the public child support office, or a private company will file legal action against you in your home country for a decree / order / judgement of paternity. You get hauled into court, and if you are wise, you will demand a DNA test. You do not have to pay for this test unless the test comes back showing that there is a conclusive probability that you are the father. Typically, the "probability" must be in excess of 96% -- higher in some countries. DNA tests do not ever come back with a rating of 100% -- typically 99.0% plus. What this means is that 99% (or whatever the "probability" percentage is) of the population is definitely excluded from being the father of the child.

Once the DNA tests are conducted, then your next court date is to establish a child support award. This is where the "shocker" comes -- the child support will be established according to the child support guidelines of your country. The economy of Thailand will not be considered at all. All that will be looked at is how much money the mother makes / earns each month. That amount will be converted to the currency of your country.

How much can you expect to pay? Figure an "average" of 20% of your net monthly income -- in other words the amount you take home after taxes. For example, if you have a net income of USD $4,000 per month -- at today's exchange rate, you would end up paying 31,900 baht each month (USD$800.00).

Think that you can get the child support reduced by tossing in your costs to go and see the child, or to bring the child to your country to visit? It isn't going to happen. The reason is that the courts in your country can not order or require the mother to provide visitation or access to the child because those courts do not have jurisdiction over the mother and child. If you want visitation, or wish to try to obtain custody of the child, you will have to come to Thailand and pursue those issues through the Thai courts.

Thailand is not currently a signatory of the Hague Convention on Child Support. However, over the next few years, they most likely will become a signatory given the new role that Thailand is playing in the world. Thailand is coming under increased pressure from various NGO's and governments around the world to firm up their child support laws.

What are the odds of you getting nailed for child support either in Thailand or back in your home country? Today, the odds are in your favor. However, in 12 to 18 months the odds will probably start changing.

Again - for the best protection - and for the benefit of everyone - including a child that you might bring into this world - wrap that rascal. If you really want a child, then check out any one of the hundreds of orphanages around LOS - you will find thousands of kids that are looking for an opportunity.

and finally

U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989); U.N. Doc. A/44/25. (Article 27 (4) provides "states parties shall take all appropriate measures to secure the recovery of maintenance for the child from the parents or other persons having financial responsibility for the child, both within the State Party and from abroad. In particular, where the person having financial responsibility for the child lives in a State different from that of the child, States Parties shall promote the accession to international agreements or the conclusion of such agreements, as well as the making of other appropriate arrangements." No specific enforcement procedures.) The United States is a signatory, but not a party to the Convention (the Convention is not in force for the U.S.) IN FORCE: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Costa Rica Cote d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakstan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea (North), Korea (South), Kuwait, Kyrgystan, Laos, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Micronesia, Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nauru, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Niue, Norway, Oman, Palau, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russian Federation, Rwanda, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, Samoa (Western), San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmanistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam, Yeman, Yugoslavia, Zaire, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

i guess its sue the person concerned

Edited August 17, 2005 by uncle paul

[mpdkorat]

It really is of the utmost importance that all male readers know that if you father children in Asia you may encounter a lifelong financial liability.

Yes, the girl might be a simple heart with no legal wherewithal,

.... it might be a one-night stand,

The lawyers will handle all the unpleasantness on her behalf. Access to lawyers is much easier than it once was, especially on a 'no-win no-fee' basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks guys I did not realise that she was in a strong possision. I will give the advice I have received here.

This guy found my friend working in a hotel reception. He was desperate to get her as he did not want a bar girl for a wife. After several months he was successful and she eventually moved in with him. He promised to marry her and take care and love her for the rest of his life. I met this guy and he was always saying how lucky he was to have such a girl. He then brought his daughter over from England apparently he was still married to this daughter’s mother. I saw this young girl being taken shopping by my Thai friend and the young girls was calling her mum. I then heard that she was pregnant. I think he then started going to the bars, Go Go's and the whole relationship fell apart.

[bkkmadness]

Thanks guys I did not realise that she was in a strong possision. I will give the advice I have received here.

Not did I, I'm shocked there is so much support here. Great news, let us know how it works out.

[uncle paul]

It really is of the utmost importance that all male readers know that if you father children in Asia you may encounter a lifelong financial liability.

Yes, the girl might be a simple heart with no legal wherewithal,

.... it might be a one-night stand,

The lawyers will handle all the unpleasantness on her behalf. Access to lawyers is much easier than it once was, especially on a 'no-win no-fee' basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks guys I did not realise that she was in a strong possision. I will give the advice I have received here.

This guy found my friend working in a hotel reception. He was desperate to get her as he did not want a bar girl for a wife. After several months he was successful and she eventually moved in with him. He promised to marry her and take care and love her for the rest of his life. I met this guy and he was always saying how lucky he was to have such a girl. He then brought his daughter over from England apparently he was still married to this daughter’s mother. I saw this young girl being taken shopping by my Thai friend and the young girls was calling her mum. I then heard that she was pregnant. I think he then started going to the bars, Go Go's and the whole relationship fell apart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i guess you will be a witness against him should it come to it?

[mpdkorat]

It really is of the utmost importance that all male readers know that if you father children in Asia you may encounter a lifelong financial liability.

Yes, the girl might be a simple heart with no legal wherewithal,

.... it might be a one-night stand,

The lawyers will handle all the unpleasantness on her behalf. Access to lawyers is much easier than it once was, especially on a 'no-win no-fee' basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks guys I did not realise that she was in a strong possision. I will give the advice I have received here.

This guy found my friend working in a hotel reception. He was desperate to get her as he did not want a bar girl for a wife. After several months he was successful and she eventually moved in with him. He promised to marry her and take care and love her for the rest of his life. I met this guy and he was always saying how lucky he was to have such a girl. He then brought his daughter over from England apparently he was still married to this daughter’s mother. I saw this young girl being taken shopping by my Thai friend and the young girls was calling her mum. I then heard that she was pregnant. I think he then started going to the bars, Go Go's and the whole relationship fell apart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i guess you will be a witness against him should it come to it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure what I can witness. I think the DNA takes care of that.

[Dragonman]

I have never practiced Family Law, or more likely in Thailand a legal action under civil law for child support outside marriage. I must admit I haven't come across the thai lawyers who work on a no win no fee basis. Perhaps there are some in Bangkok, but I would be worried about their competence. Especially as he will probably get an expensive lawyer. The British Embassy will only help British Citizens in this position, and so are more likely to help him

It should make no difference him being foreign as Child Support Actions are invariably brought in the Country the child is resident. The only difference why actions are not brought that often is that the majority of thais do not have the income to make it worth while; and those that have usually settle out of court. My advice, for what it's worth, would be for her to get a lawyer( doesn't have to be the lawyer eventually representing her) to write saying Court Action is being initiated and requesting a meeting to discuss settlement out of court.

[The_Moog]

The British Embassy will only help British Citizens in this position, and so are more likely to help him

....or indeed, baby.

Who is de facto a British citizen if paternity is proven.

[lopburi3]

The British Embassy will only help British Citizens in this position, and so are more likely to help him

....or indeed, baby.

Who is de facto a British citizen if paternity is proven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe so - this is from UK Embassy Web site

British fathers cannot transmit their nationality to illegitimate children automatically (see below). If the parents marry after the child's birth, it is possible that the child's birth will be "legitimated" by its parents' marriage. In order for us to establish whether or not legitimation has taken place, we require both parents to sign paternity declarations in person at the Embassy (the fee for which is Baht 5,250) and the father to complete a "domicile questionnaire". Please ask for the declarations of paternity forms and the domicile questionnaire.

[uncle paul]

believe what you want people if she wins in the family court the father will have to pay end of story. he leaves thailand he still has to pay. GET USED TO IT YOU CAN NO LONGER IMPREGNATE WITH IMPUNITY

[The_Moog]

Yes, Lopburi is quite right. Baby is not British.

[Dragonman]

believe what you want people if she wins in the family court the father will have to pay end of story. he leaves thailand he still has to pay.  GET USED TO IT YOU CAN NO LONGER IMPREGNATE WITH IMPUNITY

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make it sound easy for women with child support problems. I regret it is not so for many with International child support problems. Unless you have found something that I have not been sent regarding new agreements, Thailand has no reciprocal agreement with the USA or UK on child support. Although actually CSA has legislation to chase errant fathers abroad. and the USA has criminal powers to persue. Perhaps you could outline the Thai Authority with similar powers?

[elsie]

Pavena Foundation might be of some help.

[Richard W]

.... it might be a one-night stand,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or even briefer, as Boris Becker found to his cost.

[uncle paul]

believe what you want people if she wins in the family court the father will have to pay end of story. he leaves thailand he still has to pay.  GET USED TO IT YOU CAN NO LONGER IMPREGNATE WITH IMPUNITY

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make it sound easy for women with child support problems. I regret it is not so for many with International child support problems. Unless you have found something that I have not been sent regarding new agreements, Thailand has no reciprocal agreement with the USA or UK on child support. Although actually CSA has legislation to chase errant fathers abroad. and the USA has criminal powers to persue. Perhaps you could outline the Thai Authority with similar powers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

did you not read the un charter?

i posted it before

[opothai]

on this subject as with other threads there are two sides to a story.

i know personally of a case where the girl got pregnant and wanted the baby then turned on my friend wanting to finish the relationship, he paid 1 million bhat as help for the baby and that should be the end of the situation.

but no, after six months she comes back for more money and to this day 3 years after the fact she is still writing and telephoning for money.

question has this man definately not helped in any way or not.

if not then i agree he should be made to pay his dues

[longway]

on this subject as with other threads there are two sides to a story.

i know personally of a case where the girl got pregnant and wanted the baby then turned on my friend wanting to finish the relationship, he paid 1 million bhat as help for the baby and that should be the end of the situation.

but no, after six months she comes back for more money and to this day 3 years after the fact she is still writing and telephoning for money.

question has this man definately not helped in any way or not.

if not then i agree he should be made to pay his dues

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1 million is alot, but is definitely not the end of his responsibility, he should take care of the baby financially until the child is 18.

he needs to fix a reasonable monthly amount and also make sure the baby is being cared for properly. sounds as if the woman sees the child as a meal ticket. sad that if true..both parents not really interested in the welfare of the child.