No Degree = No Future ?

[mark45y]

I've heard the argument that having a degree shows that you can "last the distance" but in my own experience I don't think that it's hard at all to get a degree at least in some disciplines. University for myself and many of my friends was a giant party and getting a degree just meant hanging around for 3-4 years of fun and a small amount of work. Most people I know who got degrees saw University as one of the most enjoyable times of their lives not something they had to endure. Most of them say the opposite about the jobs that they now have.

Unless you are speaking as an international representative of education your argument only holds credence in the Universities you have experience with. So we can avoid those specific graduates what may the names of those universities be and in what country?

[StreetCowboy]

I've heard the argument that having a degree shows that you can "last the distance" but in my own experience I don't think that it's hard at all to get a degree at least in some disciplines. University for myself and many of my friends was a giant party and getting a degree just meant hanging around for 3-4 years of fun and a small amount of work. Most people I know who got degrees saw University as one of the most enjoyable times of their lives not something they had to endure. Most of them say the opposite about the jobs that they now have.

I have never seen the case for working hard at university so succinctly put.

SC

[Heng]

Any job interview is a cup in hand situation. You want a job. You want someone to fill that cup.

A degree is simply one of those cups. Some are cheap, some are easy to get, some are quite difficult to get.

Those without degrees are the cupless, like it or not. It can be rationalized that you are that much better because of it. Surely plenty of folks put their time to better use than reading a few dozen books and taking a handful of exams (which is often all a degree is). Just as there are folks who can come up with reasons why it's better to live without a home, car, or savings. One's mileage may vary.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Heng

[livinthailandos]

A. Degree what is the real price and worth of the degree, look at a few factors

A. Location of the country where jobs are

B. How is that country's economies going

C. Type of degree you have going into a job market

D. Supply and Demand of job market for what job needed

E. Overall # of people in the job market.

You can all say how much a degree is great and for what its worth, but when things get bad a degree or many degree's doesn't mean you have a job available. maybe if your in a specialized field. Don't get me wrong a degree is great to have to show, but this whole issue of future potential earnings because you have a bachelor, master's degree, doesn't work out simply because the future is always uncertain and unpredictable.

Im sure someone might say go back to school and get a different degree, trying do that when you don't even barely have money to eat or may lose a roof over your head. Seems most of you don't see the other side of reality when the economy tanks. keep in mind i'm talking about western economies here.

[GuestHouse]

The non British members taking part in this discussion perhaps need to understand that attitudes to Education, and particularly attitudes to higher education are rooted in the layers of Britain's class system.

Like many here I started work as an apprentice, like a few here I completed my training, worked at what I had trained to do and then went to university. (I graduated at age 30 and since the financial benefits of degrees are part of the discussion I can say I immediately doubled my pre-degree salary and within six months of starting my post degree job had trebled my pre-dgree salary).

My view then is from both sides of the fence - Training/Experience on the one hand and Degree on the other (though of course the training and experience was in my 'back pocket').

I believe my degree did what it was meant to do, it introduced me to ways of thinking - taught me analytical method and undid some, if not all, of the 'Trained thought' of my vocational training and experience.

Importantly, and this is to me one of the biggest benefits of a university education - it introduced me to other people's learning and thoughts. The student union bar was of course fun, but the privilege (and I mean 'Privilege') of attending lectures given by some of the leading scholars in their field - and I would add not just in my own faculty or school - was and remains a real mind opener.

Now I've done the vocational training (I served my apprenticeship with the cream of the crop of companies to get an apprenticeship with - The facilities at our dedicated training school were as good if not better than those at my university) - But training for a job never offered the mind widening experience of university - Never came even close.

You can see this in young people who go away to university - they very often come back completely changed with a whole new outlook on life. You don't get that from an apprenticeship or experience in a 'job'.

However the first different thinking I came across was before I even enrolled for my first class.

I swear if I had a penny for every person that said to me 'What are you doing a degree for, you won't get a job' - 'What are you doing a degree for, thousands of people with degrees can't get a job' - 'You've got experience, what do you need a degree for' ......... I tell you, at a penny for each time I heard these comments would have paid my Student's Union Bar Bill.

Several members of the Thai team working for me are currently reading for first or master's degrees in their spare time, most already have at least a first degree - I can assure you that if anyone suggested to them that it was a waste of time doing a degree, or that 'experience' is more important they'd think the comments coming from a mad man.

It's a view point very many Working class British people express without even thinking that in truth education is a key to opening doors that are closed to them.

[fletchsmile]

The non British members taking part in this discussion perhaps need to understand that attitudes to Education, and particularly attitudes to higher education are rooted in the layers of Britain's class system.

I'm glad where I grew up we didn't have all this class system you refer to. Most people in my schools were of similar social standing or "class". That said the opinions on education differed enormously, and for most weren't a product of class, just whether someone was academic or not.

Like many here I started work as an apprentice, like a few here I completed my training, worked at what I had trained to do and then went to university. (I graduated at age 30 and since the financial benefits of degrees are part of the discussion I can say I immediately doubled my pre-degree salary and within six months of starting my post degree job had trebled my pre-dgree salary).

My view then is from both sides of the fence - Training/Experience on the one hand and Degree on the other (though of course the training and experience was in my 'back pocket').

I believe my degree did what it was meant to do, it introduced me to ways of thinking - taught me analytical method and undid some, if not all, of the 'Trained thought' of my vocational training and experience.

Importantly, and this is to me one of the biggest benefits of a university education - it introduced me to other people's learning and thoughts. The student union bar was of course fun, but the privilege (and I mean 'Privilege') of attending lectures given by some of the leading scholars in their field - and I would add not just in my own faculty or school - was and remains a real mind opener.

Now I've done the vocational training (I served my apprenticeship with the cream of the crop of companies to get an apprenticeship with - The facilities at our dedicated training school were as good if not better than those at my university) - But training for a job never offered the mind widening experience of university - Never came even close.

You can see this in young people who go away to university - they very often come back completely changed with a whole new outlook on life. You don't get that from an apprenticeship or experience in a 'job'.

However the first different thinking I came across was before I even enrolled for my first class.

I swear if I had a penny for every person that said to me 'What are you doing a degree for, you won't get a job' - 'What are you doing a degree for, thousands of people with degrees can't get a job' - 'You've got experience, what do you need a degree for' ......... I tell you, at a penny for each time I heard these comments would have paid my Student's Union Bar Bill.

Several members of the Thai team working for me are currently reading for first or master's degrees in their spare time, most already have at least a first degree - I can assure you that if anyone suggested to them that it was a waste of time doing a degree, or that 'experience' is more important they'd think the comments coming from a mad man.

Lot of good points in the above.

It's a view point very many Working class British people express without even thinking that in truth education is a key to opening doors that are closed to them.

You have a thing about class don't you

[GuestHouse]

It's a view point very many Working class British people express without even thinking that in truth education is a key to opening doors that are closed to them.

You have a thing about class don't you

Not at all - but I have a long standing interest in issues relating to British Society and at the heart of the workings of British Society is the British Class system. Negativity to education is a text book example - excuse the pun.

[WarpSpeed]

This..............

Go and have a look at some of the most sucessful people in the world and you will find not all of them have degree's, Bill Gates and Richard Branson spring to mind.

Having a degree proves nothing...doesnt actually mean you can do a particular job and be sucessful at it..Thailand is a pressing point in this regard

And generally a decent high school equcation in the west would be at the same level as most Thai degree's anyway

Have met many educated idiots through the years....

I'll also add that like so many things in life it's more about heart and determination then anything else.. And that you'll not find in abundance here..

The truth is they don't want you to hire him because it will further expose their shortcomings and they think because they had to work to get their degree that no one else could be as well educated without one.. But they are limited by their own life's experiences..

Edited December 14, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

If you have the authority to hire, why would you consider colleagues opinions? Do you have a committee to vote on each new hire? The degree indicates the individual is capable of learning and satisfying the requirements for the paper.

As far as your concern that you will look bad if your new hire fails and it could/would be seen as a personal failure, I am speechless at this statement. I will not even make further comment as you may/likely take offense at what I would say.

Mistakes, setbacks and other terms are common in business, but failure indicates a complete wipe out of a company and thus the employees are jobless. If one new hire, trained/overseen, while the experienced/present work force is in place, could bring about a failure, I would question the feasibility of working for said company.

Agreed most go through the degreed staff like toilet paper anyway why would one non-degreed hire make such a bruise on your reputation?

[WarpSpeed]

With the current availability of potential staff in Thailand (or anywhere else it seems) why would you pick someone that didn't have the personal dedication to finish a degree? No, a degree will not measure how good someone may be at a given job, BUT it does measure some things fairly accurately and dedication and determination are two of those things that can be measured.

To the OP --- a candidate without a degree may in fact be useful to the team, but I am guessing if you look at the guy's CV it won't show that he has stayed with anything too long and training etc of an employee are costs that you can often avoid repeating by getting people with a track record of sticking to things they start.

Pure <deleted>......Very pompous and presumptuous of you, what do you know about this young mans reasoning for not obtaining a degree?? Tell that to Bill Gates and countless others whom could buy you a thousand times over..

Edited December 14, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[StreetCowboy]

Guesthouse - I'll not re-quote your post, but...

When I was eighteen, one of my classmates was discussing universities with the music teacher

Teacher: are you ambitous?

Boy: If I was ambitous, I'd not be going to university

Teacher: That's a very Scottish answer

I guess none of the people I associated with were particularly ambitous - there were no Bill Gates or Richard Bransons amongst my associates - not even amongst my friends that never completed their studies.

I think in Scotland the schools are far less class-segregated than South of the border, and so while there is perhaps less class distinction, it is maybe more obvious; but I think class privilege is more evident in one's ambitions than any real barriers that are put in one's way - prejudices of the victim, rather than the oppressor, and one's friends and colleagues holding one back, rather than anyone holding you down. Perhaps also (with reference to the thread on the benefits of spending 400K baht / year on school fees) - the ambitions of the teachers at an expensive school might compensate for limited parental ambition, whereas at a mediocre school, the parents must shoulder a much greater responsibility for the success of their children.

For me, university was an easy way to overcome lack of imagination and ambition - I also reckon its important for students to spend a few years doing jobs that are 'beneath them' - labourers, toilet cleaners, dish washers; all part of growing up and being British...

SC

[WarpSpeed]

If you have the authority to hire, why would you consider colleagues opinions?

Because the new hired will have to work with them. And if they really want to "kill" him, it's not going to be a nice experience for him

As far as your concern that you will look bad if your new hire fails and it could/would be seen as a personal failure, I am speechless at this statement. I will not even make further comment as you may/likely take offense at what I would say.

What is you point ? jdinasia completely gets it. If I hire him, for the next six month I'll have to support him, to make sue he succeeds. So what is most important for me? The success of the company because I believe hiring out of our comfort zone can bring great benefit to our company ? Or my personal comfort, don't rock the boat, and if it doesn't work as planned I can't be blamed because I followed company policy

Here's the crux of it as I've pointed out, it's not about his skills or education but about envy, jealousy and insecurity on the part of your degreed staff when it comes right down to it..

On your second part are you suggesting that a degreed person hired is able to step right in without coaching and training? Not likely, never happened to me before in the years of hires and training I've provided...

[GuestHouse]

SC,

I'd certainly agree with you that Scottish Attitudes to Class and Education differ from English attitudes - but I do disagree with you on the point of colleagues, friends, associates (people from one's on social class) creating barriers towards self advancement. The term 'Counter Jumper' encapsulates this nicely - as does the term 'Crabs in a bucket'.

The impact of social class on access and take up of education is arguably one of the most studied areas of sociology - I don't think I've ever read a single article that suggests social class in Britain (certainly in England) does not have a huge impact on access and take-up.

[StreetCowboy]

With the current availability of potential staff in Thailand (or anywhere else it seems) why would you pick someone that didn't have the personal dedication to finish a degree? No, a degree will not measure how good someone may be at a given job, BUT it does measure some things fairly accurately and dedication and determination are two of those things that can be measured.

To the OP --- a candidate without a degree may in fact be useful to the team, but I am guessing if you look at the guy's CV it won't show that he has stayed with anything too long and training etc of an employee are costs that you can often avoid repeating by getting people with a track record of sticking to things they start.

Pure <deleted>......Very pompous and presumptuous of you, what do you know about this young mans reasoning for not obtaining a degree?? Tell that to Bill Gates and countless others whom could buy you a thousand times over..

I doubt Bill Gates will be looking for a job in Thailand... I doubt he ever had a paper round, either.

I'd employ someone who had a paper round over Bill Gates any day. The last thing you want is your staff suddenly running off to found multi-billion dollar software empires, leaving you in the lurch.

And if the fella had washed dishes when he was at university, all the better.

But if he was a high plains drifter who loved new challenges, I'd give the job to a local who had career aspirations that started with the job on offer

I interviewed less than 10% of the candidates that applied for jobs when I was recruiting. So the average candidate got less than five minutes' assessment based solely on their CV and covering letter. And I don't think that is unreasonable or unusual.

SC

[jdinasia]

S.C. ---- I didn't even consider the post you responded to worth my time

Then again I still stand by my position on hiring (particularly in Thailand.) I also agree that I'd rather have a person that had worked over a trust-fund baby (again, particularly in Thailand.) I don't have to worry about having to hire someone that could buy me 1000 times over anyways

edit for typo

Edited December 14, 2010 by jdinasia

[Moonrakers]

,,,

Edited December 14, 2010 by Moonrakers

[StreetCowboy]

S.C. ---- I didn't even consider the post you responded to worth my time

Then again I still stand by my position on hiring (particularly in Thailand.) I also agree that I'd rather have a person that had worked over a trust-fund baby (again, particularly in Thailand.) I don't have to worry about having to hire someone that could buy me 1000 times over anyways

edit for typo

The mortification of it; imagine the poor personnel lady helping the lad fill in his forms

"Windsor... W I N D S O R

...

No, that's just a title, the first name is

H A R - no, R - Arro yes, R O oh wait, only 1 R

Eff this for a game of soldiers, I'm off back to the army. You can't beat the family business..."

On a topic related to the OP's: How often do you follow up on references in the recruitment process?

And before or after you make your decision?

I fell foul of that (not following up on references) once, and had to lay the chap off at the end of his probation; although perhaps the referee might have erred on the generous side as well...

Twice, actually, in the same job...but I doubt I would have rejected the second chap anyway, even if the full horrors had been revealed...

SC

[craigt3365]

I have a degree in accounting. I remember talking with one of my teachers about a particular class. Asking him if I would EVER see any of this "on the job". He had an interesting reply. He said a lot of what the undergrad process was about is getting you ready for life as a professional. Dressing properly, showing up on time, taking your assignments seriously, paying attention, etc. He said that is one reason most accounting classes were at 8am...as opposed to my roommates psych classes that started at 5PM!

As far as business is concerned, he was not far off. As far as other professions, I can see how it would not really matter.

Most companies I have worked for have an undergrad as a requirement. It's just not that hard to get it...so it was a basic requirement. Kinda of like a ticket you need to get into a concert...ya just gotta have it for certain jobs. But I can see how here in LOS, it's not the same thing....especially as you can just buy a degree here!

[jazzbo]

What about Have Degree = Still No Future? There has been an interesting series of articles in The New York Times the latest entitled No Jobs? Young Graduates Make Their Own

http://www.nytimes.c...me&ref=homepage

[ExpatJ]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards.

[THAILIBAN]

faulty posting, sorry. see below for my actual post

Edited December 15, 2010 by THAILIBAN

[THAILIBAN]

If the problem is inside your company, I would suggest that the management practices are at fault.

I disagree. In my opinion it's a culture/tradition within a business role.

Good sales people don't have to resort to lying (assuming they leave a company with a crappy product).

I agree, yet in every business area I've worked in they've done it over and over and over again. Backhanders, kickbacks, lies, and deals with competitors - I've seen it all. Since moving to Asia I'm seeing this at a level I previously thought didn't exist.

just out of interest, would you mind to tell us in which field you are working and if those salespeople are locals or Western foreigners ?

[jdinasia]

S.C. ---- I didn't even consider the post you responded to worth my time

Then again I still stand by my position on hiring (particularly in Thailand.) I also agree that I'd rather have a person that had worked over a trust-fund baby (again, particularly in Thailand.) I don't have to worry about having to hire someone that could buy me 1000 times over anyways

edit for typo

The mortification of it; imagine the poor personnel lady helping the lad fill in his forms

"Windsor... W I N D S O R

...

No, that's just a title, the first name is

H A R - no, R - Arro yes, R O oh wait, only 1 R

Eff this for a game of soldiers, I'm off back to the army. You can't beat the family business..."

On a topic related to the OP's: How often do you follow up on references in the recruitment process?

And before or after you make your decision?

I fell foul of that (not following up on references) once, and had to lay the chap off at the end of his probation; although perhaps the referee might have erred on the generous side as well...

Twice, actually, in the same job...but I doubt I would have rejected the second chap anyway, even if the full horrors had been revealed...

SC

SC----

To be honest I have failed to check references once in Thailand and several times "back home". I no longer skip that step for expediency. ("Back home" it was for seasonal jobs --- I would have hired them anyways but watched them better) Here in Thailand it was a fake degree AND fake references. I had to bite the bullet on that one and go to the MD and say I dropped the ball. The nice thing was that the lies on the application/cv remedied any liability in paying severance.

ExpatJ --- your assessment may be right, but I would be the first to admit that in keeping a minimum standard in education I may miss out on a few decent potential employees. I would also point out though, that those potential employees by not meeting the minimum standard are missing out far more in job opportunities.

[stander]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

That sums up it nicely and also all these posters who talk about "buying a degree in Thailand" do any of them actually have evidence of this, if so I would be interested in hearing.

[jdinasia]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

That sums up it nicely and also all these posters who talk about "buying a degree in Thailand" do any of them actually have evidence of this, if so I would be interested in hearing.

There is actual evidence for this with both totally fake degrees printed on KSR for foreigners and "earned degrees" by Thais that were in all actuality just purchased. They are a minority (in both cases) and in the Thai cases at least tend to have been done to keep government jobs or obtain the next ranking in government jobs. I have not come across a Thai applicant that did not in fact earn their degree that I know of.

[stander]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

That sums up it nicely and also all these posters who talk about "buying a degree in Thailand" do any of them actually have evidence of this, if so I would be interested in hearing.

There is actual evidence for this with both totally fake degrees printed on KSR for foreigners and "earned degrees" by Thais that were in all actuality just purchased. They are a minority (in both cases) and in the Thai cases at least tend to have been done to keep government jobs or obtain the next ranking in government jobs. I have not come across a Thai applicant that did not in fact earn their degree that I know of.

Source?

[richard_smith237]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

That sums up it nicely and also all these posters who talk about "buying a degree in Thailand" do any of them actually have evidence of this, if so I would be interested in hearing.

There is actual evidence for this with both totally fake degrees printed on KSR for foreigners and "earned degrees" by Thais that were in all actuality just purchased. They are a minority (in both cases) and in the Thai cases at least tend to have been done to keep government jobs or obtain the next ranking in government jobs. I have not come across a Thai applicant that did not in fact earn their degree that I know of.

Source?

I'm not sure he needs any, its common enough knowledge. We know MBK sells fakes without having to go there and prove it with photos.

Another thread that ran previously titled 'Mr Hippo's Day in Court' (I think) about one TV member (Mr Hippo) who was in trouble with the Thai Authorities after purchasing a degree.

It's also common knowledge that many of the Uni's for International students in the UK rely on international funds and are somewhat easier to pass - I know because some of my Thai friends have taken this path of study. The Dean visits Thailand yearly (amongst other places) and is well taken care of.

Going back to the original topic: Is there anyone here who would choose not to send their children to University ?

Everyone I work with, even those without degrees who have taken the 'pish' out my Uni education when compared to their 'University of Hard Knocks' comments always respond with an "Of Course I Would" when I ask them if they would choose to send their kids to Uni.....

But it's still not the be all and end all. But for any single person it can only develop their career prospects.

[jdinasia]

Source?

(I am not "quoting" a news source -- but there have been news reports in Thailand and reprinted on TVF of the "bought degrees" by Thais ... AND I have personal experience of having to fire a staff member (foreign) that bought a fake degree on KSR. There are also admissions of foreigners who used fake degrees on this site (and I think 2 that got caught for it by either MoL or MoE)

Fell free to use the search function

The days of buying a fake degree or teaching certificate in Khao San Road are virtually gone and Thai employers have become wise to these tricks. The employer now faces a hefty penalty for failing to ensure his employee is properly qualified which has caused a general wake up alarm amongst employers who previously would employ just about anyone to show that they had a 'farang' working for them. http://www.thaivisa.com/391.0.html

and

Khon Kaen - A criminal action is set to be taken against a private university in Khon Kaen provincefor "selling" bechalor's degrees to hundreds of buyers each for Bt100,000, an activist representing teachers in both private and government schools said yesterday.

[stander]

Okay JD point taken, please don't take offence as I don't have a lot of faith in farang hearsay.

The ability to produce fake documents has becoming much easier and I don't think Thailand is alone in this, I would imagine this is quite common practice worldwide.

[ExpatJ]

Okay JD point taken, please don't take offence as I don't have a lot of faith in farang hearsay.

The ability to produce fake documents has becoming much easier and I don't think Thailand is alone in this, I would imagine this is quite common practice worldwide.

The fact you can buy a fake degree is not relevant to this discussion- it just means that a quick call to the relevant uni is needed to make sure a candidate has actually studied where he says he has. It doesn't mean having a degree is any less beneficial.

Also the old line mentioned by other posters- "i have known plenty of people with degrees who had no common sense" is also not relevant - People without degrees are likely to have even less common sense (i.e. they did not have the sense to study harder and get into university themselves as its clearly in their interest).