Thai Politics - 'Battle Of Ideology' Looms?

[webfact]

POLITICS

'Battle of ideology' looms?

By Tulsathit Taptim

The Nation

Pheu Thai to play down welfare issue in election campaign while attacking govt for 'injustice'

They don't exude the confidence of a reigning champion, but why should they? The Pheu Thai Party, whose leaders met Nation Group editors yesterday to discuss the next election, whenever it will come, plans to enter the electoral contest as a justice-seeking underdog who has nothing to lose.

It will be a "battle of ideology", the Pheu Thai leaders declared. The voting public will be reminded, of course, that the Opposition party was the "real pioneer" of Thailand's "welfare" direction, but it will be unwise to go tooth and nail on such an issue against opponents who have state budgets at their disposal.

Pheu Thai's election strategy is based on the assumption that while people won't forget who "helped" them first, they will remember better the tragic political events of 2010.

The Pheu Thai leaders know they have a mammoth task. The party needs a clear-cut victory to stand a chance of grabbing back the power at a time when its money war chest is shrinking and its rivals are stronger financially.

The coalition government has been acting like a Santa Claus and Thaksin Shinawatra is apparently no longer the most bankable political asset. All these leave an ideological theme a sensible option for the election campaign.

"No other government chases and kills its people like that," Pheu Thai leader Yongyuth Wichaidit said. Party candidates will try to hammer that home in their election campaign, along with such "democratic" concepts as winners get to govern.

Such a campaign may not be as simple as it sounds.

In private, the leaders gave signals that they think of the red shirts a bit differently.

Some see the movement as an integral part, something inseparable from the party, which has to devise all policies toward and devote all energy for them. Others view the red shirts as a very important power base, but feel the party needs to keep some kind of a distance.

Prompong Nopparit, the party's spokesman, is in the first category. He yesterday pledged that a blanket amnesty for red-shirt and yellow-shirt political defendants could be expected if Pheu Thai won back power, although he seemed to exclude bigger cases like Thaksin Shinawatra's. Some other Pheu Thai leaders did not sound as resolute when it comes to the amnesty issue.

The leaders were surprisingly open about Thaksin's behind-the-scene influences, though. If you question Pheu Thai about Thaksin, Yongyuth quipped, what about Abhisit Vejjajiva and the Democrat Party, Chumpol Silapa-archa and Chart Thai Pattana Party, Chaovarat Chanweerakul and the Bhum Jai Thai Party? Thaksin, Yongyuth admitted, has played some advisory roles, but the ousted leader did not have a commanding influence.

Deputy Pheu Thai leader Kanawat Wasinsungworn expressed confidence that his party would not have to worry much about welfare issues during the election campaign. For one thing, it was his party that initiated big government spending for the poor, he pointed out. It was a policy that has been copied, modified, and re-modified, so much so that if it was going to be a "Me too" election campaign, it won't matter much to voters, Kanawat and other Pheu Thai leaders said.

Even if welfare still matters politically, said Suchart Thadathamrongvech, former deputy finance minister, "the people will still trust our policies". Yet he and the other Pheu Thai leaders were adamant that the upcoming campaign focus will jump from poverty to "justice". The campaign won't be about "people who are poor, but people can't stand the injustice that befalls them," said Yongyuth.

It will be an interesting role reversal. When the Democrats were in the opposition, they fought electoral wars by seeking to bring up the allegations of Thaksin's "lack of respect for human dignity", while the then Thai Rak Thai Party drummed up the tangible outcomes of welfare policies. Thai Rak Thai wouldn't play the ideology card then, so the question is, will the Democrats now?

-- The Nation 2010-12-23

[Bizz]

Deputy Pheu Thai leader Kanawat Wasinsungworn expressed confidence that his party would not have to worry much about welfare issues during the election campaign.

Pheu Thai to play down welfare issue in election campaign while attacking govt for 'injustice'

They don't exude the confidence of a reigning champion, but why should they? The Pheu Thai Party, whose leaders met Nation Group editors yesterday to discuss the next election, whenever it will come, plans to enter the electoral contest as a justice-seeking underdog who has nothing to lose.

what a load of wanke** move on please, there are more wiser people and please, find them,

we are there.

[TAWP]

The downside of democracy mixed with professional criminals is that they try to talk you into getting robbed by offering part of your [or your neighbors] items back and saying how much worse the other gangs are...'they will beat you up aswell'!

[asiawatcher]

They are trying to play down reality. Thugs with ill intent and an ousted criminal backer. No PTP is not Thailand's solution to anything and to try to claim to be the originators of the welfare policies, suggest they go back to where Abhisit was working towards that back in early 2000 before he came to power. Selective memory works for all. Amazing Thailand.

[Emptyset]

"Thai Rak Thai wouldn't play the ideology card then, so the question is, will the Democrats now?" What does this sentence mean? What's the ideology card?

[Emptyset]

They are trying to play down reality. Thugs with ill intent and an ousted criminal backer. No PTP is not Thailand's solution to anything and to try to claim to be the originators of the welfare policies, suggest they go back to where Abhisit was working towards that back in early 2000 before he came to power. Selective memory works for all. Amazing Thailand.

So you're claiming that Abhisit is actually the "originator" of the welfare policies? What was he working towards? You're saying TRT used his ideas but gave him no credit? Were any of these ideas used in the Democrat manifestos (in 2001 for instance)?

[thaihome]

[Emptyset]

Given the Democrat's (former) proximity to PAD, should we blame them for acts of violence carried out by PAD? I think not. Who from PT has actually been involved with the demonstrations? Jatuporn & Apiwan. Obviously Korkaew ran for them too. Can't think of any others offhand. Obviously the red shirts are close to PT, but should they be thought of as one and the same? Probably not. I've spoken to people who support the red shirts but wouldn't vote for PT.

[hyperdimension]

The campaign won't be about "people who are poor, but people can't stand the injustice that befalls them," said Yongyuth.

I'm confused. Are they still going to push their minimum wage policies? Or has that now been scrapped?

It looks like they've also scrapped the "bring Thaksin back" policy that Chalerm had publicly proposed some time ago.

So now it's going to be about how bad the other side is, and not about the poor anymore?

They don't seem to have much consistency. How can anyone take their word seriously? These thugs can't be trusted.

[whybother]

Given the Democrat's (former) proximity to PAD, should we blame them for acts of violence carried out by PAD? I think not. Who from PT has actually been involved with the demonstrations? Jatuporn & Apiwan. Obviously Korkaew ran for them too. Can't think of any others offhand. Obviously the red shirts are close to PT, but should they be thought of as one and the same? Probably not. I've spoken to people who support the red shirts but wouldn't vote for PT.

Who would they vote for, if not PTP?

Not all red shirts might support PTP, but the PTP are certainly riding on the back of the red shirts.

[Emptyset]

Given the Democrat's (former) proximity to PAD, should we blame them for acts of violence carried out by PAD? I think not. Who from PT has actually been involved with the demonstrations? Jatuporn & Apiwan. Obviously Korkaew ran for them too. Can't think of any others offhand. Obviously the red shirts are close to PT, but should they be thought of as one and the same? Probably not. I've spoken to people who support the red shirts but wouldn't vote for PT.

Who would they vote for, if not PTP?

Not all red shirts might support PTP, but the PTP are certainly riding on the back of the red shirts.

In the end, they'll vote for the politician that they feel will bring them most benefit at a local level. But I think it's safe to assume the vast majority of red shirts will be voting PT. I know that some red shirts are angry at PT for not doing enough for them, not being radical enough & trying to distance themselves somewhat from the reds. Similarly, I've read that some PT MPs feel that the red shirts have damaged their image and that the party should stay well away from street politics. Second point I agree with, but that said, I feel the red shirts actions might've lost them more support than they've gained. I do know people also that definitely don't support the red shirts, but might vote PT depending on the platform and the leader.

On the point that Hyperdimension made, I think PT are trying to avoid looking "populist" so are looking for a different rhetorical strategy based around injustice, rather than the ones they were considering before based around Thaksin and populism. Now the Democrats have rather stolen their thunder when it comes to populism. I think their policies will be as mentioned before though, since I first saw some of them (like the min wage) mentioned a few months ago.

[thaihome]

... Who from PT has actually been involved with the demonstrations? Jatuporn & Apiwan. Obviously Korkaew ran for them too. Can't think of any others offhand. Obviously the red shirts are close to PT, but should they be thought of as one and the same? Probably not. I've spoken to people who support the red shirts but wouldn't vote for PT.

Keep practicing that denial of association between the PTP and the UDD. You are going to need have it down to perfection when the election takes place.

In March this year before the protest started, PTP said they would help the UDD organise and manage the rally. Each party MP distributed 1,000 red T-shirts that feature the image of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to constituents. (can't post the link).

In July this year, the PTP and UDD held a joint seminar in Pattaya.

The list goes on and on. The PTP and UDD are linked forever any every Thai voters mind.

TH

[Emptyset]

... Who from PT has actually been involved with the demonstrations? Jatuporn & Apiwan. Obviously Korkaew ran for them too. Can't think of any others offhand. Obviously the red shirts are close to PT, but should they be thought of as one and the same? Probably not. I've spoken to people who support the red shirts but wouldn't vote for PT.

Keep practicing that denial of association between the PTP and the UDD. You are going to need have it down to perfection when the election takes place.

In March this year before the protest started, PTP said they would help the UDD organise and manage the rally. Each party MP distributed 1,000 red T-shirts that feature the image of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to constituents. (can't post the link).

In July this year, the PTP and UDD held a joint seminar in Pattaya.

The list goes on and on. The PTP and UDD are linked forever any every Thai voters mind.

TH

Why will *I* need to have it down to perfection? Do you think I'm working for PT or something? I didn't flat out deny it anyway, I was questioning the association more than actually denying it. They're heavily intertwined but are they one and the same? Actually, I've got far more time for the red shirts than I have for PT, so I'd rather they weren't associated because I think the red shirts will eventually become more politically advanced than PT and outgrow them. Why should they tie themselves to a party which I don't think necessarily best represents their interests? Of course who best represents their interests is for them to decide, not me...

[hyperdimension]

During the protests earlier this year, the protesters were instructed by UDD leaders on the stage to vote for Pheu Thai.

Basically, "democracy" for them means getting Pheu Thai back into power.

Edited December 23, 2010 by hyperdimension

[thaihome]

Why will *I* need to have it down to perfection? Do you think I'm working for PT or something? I didn't flat out deny it anyway, I was questioning the association more than actually denying it. They're heavily intertwined but are they one and the same?

You are being seriously disingenuous here. You know exactly what you were trying to do and having been called on, are quickly backtracking away from it.

Actually, I've got far more time for the red shirts than I have for PT, so I'd rather they weren't associated because I think the red shirts will eventually become more politically advanced than PT and outgrow them. Why should they tie themselves to a party which I don't think necessarily best represents their interests? Of course who best represents their interests is for them to decide, not me...

You have been seriously misled by the UDD propaganda generated almost solely for the romantic western liberal rooting for the classic underdog.

The local UDD leadership is comprised almost completely by local faction leaders and their canvassers and client Kamnans (who are often the same person). These people have carefully crafted a campaign to focus the attention of the rural poor on this so-called mysterious “Amat and Bangkok elite” (that nobody can actually name) as the cause of all their problems.

The actual problem and group that has the most to loose if the rural poor are ever freed from the economic servitude they exist in, is not the Bangkok elite, but the very UDD leaders themselves.

If you want to cheer for the rural poor; you really need to pick a new champion, because the UDD is not it. There are lots of organizations that try to help the rural poor with real economic polices. Name me one UDD economic policy.

:jap:

Th

[Emptyset]

Why will *I* need to have it down to perfection? Do you think I'm working for PT or something? I didn't flat out deny it anyway, I was questioning the association more than actually denying it. They're heavily intertwined but are they one and the same?

You are being seriously disingenuous here. You know exactly what you were trying to do and having been called on, are quickly backtracking away from it.

Actually, I've got far more time for the red shirts than I have for PT, so I'd rather they weren't associated because I think the red shirts will eventually become more politically advanced than PT and outgrow them. Why should they tie themselves to a party which I don't think necessarily best represents their interests? Of course who best represents their interests is for them to decide, not me...

You have been seriously misled by the UDD propaganda generated almost solely for the romantic western liberal rooting for the classic underdog.

The local UDD leadership is comprised almost completely by local faction leaders and their canvassers and client Kamnans (who are often the same person). These people have carefully crafted a campaign to focus the attention of the rural poor on this so-called mysterious "Amat and Bangkok elite" (that nobody can actually name) as the cause of all their problems.

The actual problem and group that has the most to loose if the rural poor are ever freed from the economic servitude they exist in, is not the Bangkok elite, but the very UDD leaders themselves.

If you want to cheer for the rural poor; you really need to pick a new champion, because the UDD is not it. There are lots of organizations that try to help the rural poor with real economic polices. Name me one UDD economic policy.

:jap:

Th

So UDD propaganda is designed "almost solely" to fool romantic liberal westerners like me? If that's the case they should've let me design it, I would've done a much better job.

I think I already noted in another thread that red shirts in rural areas are lead, for the most part, by "ex-TRT apparatchiks". These people yr describing at the local level probably haven't crafted that much of the campaign at all though. Just shows the lack of democracy in the movement, really. Much of the rhetorical strategy & red shirt political thought is down to Thida & Weng, though I think it was a friend of Nattawud's that came up with the "amaat vs phrai" idea. However, many people already knew the word amaat (from films like Pao Boon Jin) and it was something that resonated with them already. Some were using it soon after the 2006 coup. Obviously this little people vs elites thing is a simplistic reduction and I'd agree, ridding Thai democracy from the influence of the amaat probably won't solve the major problems people face in their lives. Why do you say people can't name them though? They name at least one of them with great regularity and great venom. They're not really that mysterious either... I mean it's pretty obvious to me. I can't name every name and often the names change, but you can start by reading Duncan McCargo's piece on the "network" for a clue as to who they might be.

I think it's you that's mystified things. Anyway, what exactly have the amaat been doing for the seventy or so years that they've had the whip hand over the country? It's not surprising that people liked Thaksin, he actually did things for them for a change, made them value their vote. They like their local poo yai because they give something tangible back, so that seems understandable to me. However, it's the patronage system as a whole that must be defeated, whether at a local level or at a national level. It's not either/or. The fish rots from the head, etc... one good thing is I think people expect more from politics now, their eyes will be more open.

Anyway, I've got little faith in the majority of the UDD leaders, especially the ones closest to Thaksin. It's notable, as you say, that little time was spent on stage talking about economic inequality or the ways to solve it. Or real improvements in the lives of the grassroots. As I said in the other thread, there's a progressive strand of red shirts, lead by the likes of Sombat who're gaining more influence and if rural red shirts can interact and share ideas with this strand, then there's no reason they can't metamorphosize into a movement with much more positive and important implications than bringing back Thaksin or nonsense like that. That's what I'm hoping for and that's why I've got time for red shirts (although I think they should be listened to, not condemned, just in general). You can honestly hear more ideas in five minutes from Sombat or Somyot than you can in fifty Jatuporn speeches. Hopefully, people are becoming more politically advanced and they won't put up with such immaturity (on all levels) for too much longer. Obviously it's a long-shot, though.

What organizations are you talking about? Most organizations I've seen in Thailand seem to focus on single issues and aren't mass movements capable of really changing the distribution of power & wealth in country.

[Buchholz]

That's very similar to the slogan that JetsetBKK posted quite awhile ago about the Red Shirts.

This guy wants democracy so bad he'll break your legs to get it.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Buchholz

[hanuman1]

Several thousand red shirts demonstrating peacefully. In the interests of balance - if such a notion isn't too outlandish for some around here.

P.S. the title of this thread is most apt - is it referring to Thai politics or the content of most of these political threads?

Edited December 23, 2010 by hanuman1

[jayjay0]

Well what are they trying to tell us with this little item.

.{"Prompong Nopparit, the party's spokesman, is in the first category. He yesterday pledged that a blanket amnesty for red-shirt and yellow-shirt political defendants could be expected if Pheu Thai won back power"}

Like is the message vote for us and we will let you do any thing you want with out retribution.

Then on the other hand look who they are conferincing with The Nation Editors. Yes you can get ideology out of that group.

The main problem is that each and every one of them has there feet planted firmly in mid air.

[gregb]

It will be a "battle of ideology", the Pheu Thai leaders declared. The voting public will be reminded, of course, that the Opposition party was the "real pioneer" of Thailand's "welfare" direction, but it will be unwise to go tooth and nail on such an issue against opponents who have state budgets at their disposal.

Pheu Thai's election strategy is based on the assumption that while people won't forget who "helped" them first, they will remember better the tragic political events of 2010.

This is just foolish. People are so tired of demonstrations and riots. Nobody wants to hear about it anymore.

If the PT had a single brain cell between them, they'd realize the solution is simply more populism. They should be criticizing the current coalition government not because they are blatantly spending money trying to buy votes, but because they are so stingy as to not be spending even more.

It doesn't matter whether you are the government or the opposition when it comes to campaign promises. You always make promises using the tax payers money when you get elected. They can promise other people's money just as well as the coalition can. The PT rallying cry should be "vote for us and we'll guarantee 30,000 baht per ton of rice". Or "1 million baht grants to every family". Paint the coalition as real cheap charlies who should be voted out because no matter how much they are giving to you, they aren't giving enough, and we'll give you even more.

That's where this ridiculous populist agenda will eventually wind up anyway. Might as well skip the boring runup and jump right to the ending.

This is why PT will lose again come the next election. They are just idiots. Without their square faced paymaster to explain things to them they couldn't find the ground with their ass if they fell down.

[Chang_paarp]

Ideology?

What ideology?????

[animatic]

Why will *I* need to have it down to perfection? Do you think I'm working for PT or something? I didn't flat out deny it anyway, I was questioning the association more than actually denying it. They're heavily intertwined but are they one and the same?

You are being seriously disingenuous here. You know exactly what you were trying to do and having been called on, are quickly backtracking away from it.

Actually, I've got far more time for the red shirts than I have for PT, so I'd rather they weren't associated because I think the red shirts will eventually become more politically advanced than PT and outgrow them. Why should they tie themselves to a party which I don't think necessarily best represents their interests? Of course who best represents their interests is for them to decide, not me...

You have been seriously misled by the UDD propaganda generated almost solely for the romantic western liberal rooting for the classic underdog.

The local UDD leadership is comprised almost completely by local faction leaders and their canvassers and client Kamnans (who are often the same person). These people have carefully crafted a campaign to focus the attention of the rural poor on this so-called mysterious "Amat and Bangkok elite" (that nobody can actually name) as the cause of all their problems.

The actual problem and group that has the most to loose if the rural poor are ever freed from the economic servitude they exist in, is not the Bangkok elite, but the very UDD leaders themselves.

If you want to cheer for the rural poor; you really need to pick a new champion, because the UDD is not it. There are lots of organizations that try to help the rural poor with real economic polices. Name me one UDD economic policy.

:jap:

Th

Thaihome has hit the nail square on the head driven it home in one blow.

Ther average rural Thai is a multi-generational abuse victim of a political system in it's death throes, trying mightily to keep the gravy train moving. Think of Minkwan's rice pledging and manipulation by the rice millers, and local loan sharks etc. They know the Dems throw a monkey wrench in their scams and schemes regularly and so have united to use their collective power to removed the thorn in their paw.

Of course they tend to feed the mice at their paws with crumbs.

Edited December 24, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

It will be a "battle of ideology", the Pheu Thai leaders declared. The voting public will be reminded, of course, that the Opposition party was the "real pioneer" of Thailand's "welfare" direction, but it will be unwise to go tooth and nail on such an issue against opponents who have state budgets at their disposal.

Pheu Thai's election strategy is based on the assumption that while people won't forget who "helped" them first, they will remember better the tragic political events of 2010.

This is just foolish. People are so tired of demonstrations and riots. Nobody wants to hear about it anymore.

If the PT had a single brain cell between them, they'd realize the solution is simply more populism. They should be criticizing the current coalition government not because they are blatantly spending money trying to buy votes, but because they are so stingy as to not be spending even more.

It doesn't matter whether you are the government or the opposition when it comes to campaign promises. You always make promises using the tax payers money when you get elected. They can promise other people's money just as well as the coalition can. The PT rallying cry should be "vote for us and we'll guarantee 30,000 baht per ton of rice". Or "1 million baht grants to every family". Paint the coalition as real cheap charlies who should be voted out because no matter how much they are giving to you, they aren't giving enough, and we'll give you even more.

That's where this ridiculous populist agenda will eventually wind up anyway. Might as well skip the boring runup and jump right to the ending.

This is why PT will lose again come the next election. They are just idiots. Without their square faced paymaster to explain things to them they couldn't find the ground with their ass if they fell down.

Of course then their declarations get compared to the reality of their last tours in office.

Except for the propaganda of the liege lord Thaksin and his 'legend', which is getting harder and harder to keep burnished, they reality is pretty harsh for their historical track record. Add to that, PTP is the 3rd string team of TRT, and don't HAVE a track record of actually using their numbers in the legislature to move forward ANY viable legislation or actual proposals to help the poor EXCEPT their condemnation of anything the coalition does. If they put forward valid, workable legislation, there is no way the coalition would not join them in putting something realistic forward and out to the nation. But PTP have done nothing. A solid zero for effective legislation.

I have asked this before, several times, and never once gotten an answer.

What has PTP or any of it's members ever done as MPs to effectively and substantially better the lot of the rural poor?

Edited December 24, 2010 by animatic