What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[Tod Daniels]

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

The last time I checked ‘arse wiping’ WAS a thai only trade and included in one of the 37 odd trades foreigners are prohibited from working in. (I think it's right after driving a tuk-tuk on the list )

I did some further checking though, and it would appear, in the field of "arse wiping" foreigners can work, but ONLY as ‘consultants’!!

Sorry couldn’t resist.

And now back on topic.

[Soutpeel]

Logically I can't imagine any of these scenarios as being classified as work. Your investments are outside the country, you are not actually making money, your investments are. As long as you maintain the necessary balance in the bank or receive the necessary monthly income from abroad you should not be concidered working.

I'm surviving on a pension plan. A pension plan is nothing more than an investment whereby the pension company handles all the funds with the intention of providing the best possible interest on my remaining balance.

I receive interest and compounded interest on my pension so while I am actually making money, it's my pension that's doing the work; not me.

I can't see how your case is any different. How could they even prove that you are making money unless they actually accessed your overseas investments; that would be illegal.

Two problems with your post....

1. please dont bring logic in this discussion...

2. Whether you make money or not has no bearing on the definition of "work" in Thailand per the current rules.

I tend to agree with you, and believe someone who is "legally" retired here by virtue of being over 50, and having either a Non-imm O or O-A, who is lving off a pension or investments should not require a WP to manage their affairs and do beleive this is the interpretation by immigration

People who are not legally retired per above....ie having internet buiness' or any other professions are required to have a WP, and pay tax in Thailand,

I will hazard a guess that the vast majority of internet "business persons" are not paying income tax anywhere in the world either...

[jazzbo]

This discussion of what is and what is not work under Thai law reminds me of the 1964 comments of US Supreme Court Associate Justice Potter Stewart when confronted with the need to define cinema that constitutes 'hard-core pornography':

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I

see it...

[TimTang]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

Good response LivinLOS!

I've heard of a case where a bar owner is sitting in the corner and some customers come in. He looks around and notices that the bartender or waitress has gone to the bathroom or something like that. He walks over to the customers and asks "can I get you some drinks?" He serves them their drinks and BANG! working without a permit.

Another case: A musician steps on the stage to sit in for a couple of songs with the band, to show his friends how proficient he is on guitar. BANG! working with a permit.

While these cases are rare they do happen. They usually get off by paying a bribe to the boys in brown. Some police see it as a way to make a quick 1000 baht.

Edited January 9, 2011 by TimTang

[TimTang]

...problems with your post....

1. please dont bring logic in this discussion...

Yeh I know! I've used the word twice in the forum alone.

What was I thinking????

I promise I won't let it happen again.

[TimTang]

...But I know it when I

see it...

That's right up the with Bill Clinton's infamous "That depends on what the definition of is, is."

Cop 1: Is that falang over there working?

Cop 2: That depends on what the definition of is, is. Thirsty? Up for a beer? Let's go see if he's got a work permit.

Edited January 9, 2011 by TimTang

[sydneyjed]

So is my business visa adequate protection for when I just visit Thai companies ..they actually carry out the work,I just supply the clients and physically don't do the work here but still check up and make phone calls etc..Is making a phone call even classed as work??

[Soutpeel]

So is my business visa adequate protection for when I just visit Thai companies ..they actually carry out the work,I just supply the clients and physically don't do the work here but still check up and make phone calls etc..Is making a phone call even classed as work??

Let me ask this question, are you based in Thailand ?

[sydneyjed]

My business is registered in Oz but spend a fair amount of time in Asia and Thailand..wouldn't say I'm permanently based here ,so is business visa sufficent do you think?

[TimTang]

...I just supply the clients...

That's work.

If you are doing this locally then you need a work permit from the company you represent or you need to create your own consulting company to provide your own work permit.

The reality is that with the type of work you are doing it is highly unlikely that you would ever get caught. You should keep a low profile and never aknowledge or let it be known that you don't have a work permit.

You only have to pi$$ off one person, Thai or expat, to jeopardize your status.

Append:

Sorry I missed your response. If you're based in Australia you should be OK with a Non-B visa.

Edited January 9, 2011 by TimTang

[Maestro]

So is my business visa adequate protection for when I just visit Thai companies ..they actually carry out the work,I just supply the clients and physically don't do the work here but still check up and make phone calls etc..Is making a phone call even classed as work??

Are you physically carrying your products to Thailand and deliver (supply) them to your clients? I you aren't, if you only visit them to discuss your products with them, eg how sales are going, what questions they have, what they plan to order in the coming months, etc, then this is exactly what the non-B visa is designed for, without the need for a work permit.

[AbeSurd]

THe OP's example is writing for a Bangkok based magazine.

But what about the case of a British writer, resident and registered for tax in the UK, who is commissioned by a British magazine or publisher to write an article or a book on, say, something to do with British history (in other words NOTHING to do with Thailand).

The writer will be paid in the UK into his or her UK bank account.

The writer decides to take a long holiday in Thailand and write the article or the book.

Should the writer be getting a Thai work permit?

[TimTang]

THe OP's example is writing for a Bangkok based magazine.

But what about the case of a British writer, resident and registered for tax in the UK, who is commissioned by a British magazine or publisher to write an article or a book on, say, something to do with British history (in other words NOTHING to do with Thailand).

The writer will be paid in the UK into his or her UK bank account.

The writer decides to take a long holiday in Thailand and write the article or the book.

Should the writer be getting a Thai work permit?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say NO!

Maybe other experts here may disagree.

First of all the odds of getting caught are as astronomical as getting caught wiping your own a$$ (as per a previous example).

Unless you go from bar to bar bragging to everyone that you are writing a book, no one could possibly know what you are doing in private. I don't believe keeping a diary or writing your own biography would be considered work, if it was you could be arrested for writing a post card in a park.

Needless to say, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Edited January 9, 2011 by TimTang

[Soutpeel]

My business is registered in Oz but spend a fair amount of time in Asia and Thailand..wouldn't say I'm permanently based here ,so is business visa sufficent do you think?

Your answer is very vague

Ok let me ask the question this way

Approximately how many days a year do you do business in Thailand ?

Do you have a house/GF/wife/Car in Thailand and consider Thailand home ?

[mongoose11]

THe OP's example is writing for a Bangkok based magazine.

But what about the case of a British writer, resident and registered for tax in the UK, who is commissioned by a British magazine or publisher to write an article or a book on, say, something to do with British history (in other words NOTHING to do with Thailand).

The writer will be paid in the UK into his or her UK bank account.

The writer decides to take a long holiday in Thailand and write the article or the book.

Should the writer be getting a Thai work permit?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say NO!

Maybe other experts here may disagree.

First of all the odds of getting caught are as astronomical as getting caught wiping your own a$ (as per a previous example).

Unless you go from bar to bar bragging to everyone that you are writing a book, no one could possibly know what you are doing in private. I don't believe keeping a diary or writing your own biography would be considered work, if it was you could be arrested for writing a post card in a park.

Needless to say, I wouldn't be too concerned.

So is Internet Marketing considered work.

Example: Writing about weight loss products, send readers to your website and you make affiliate commission on sales. You get paid in $, goes into say paypal account and you withdraw here. This seems not to disimilar to the post above.

If it's work then would you need a degree toget a WP for being an internet marketer?

Edited January 9, 2011 by mongoose11

[Soutpeel]

THe OP's example is writing for a Bangkok based magazine.

But what about the case of a British writer, resident and registered for tax in the UK, who is commissioned by a British magazine or publisher to write an article or a book on, say, something to do with British history (in other words NOTHING to do with Thailand).

The writer will be paid in the UK into his or her UK bank account.

The writer decides to take a long holiday in Thailand and write the article or the book.

Should the writer be getting a Thai work permit?

Under the current rules answer is yes

Where the writer is registered for tax/where he his paid, who commissioned him and on what subject are completely irrelevant, regulations aside...the question is would he get caught ? most likely not.

If the writer/jouro concerned was one of standing with the British publisher he maybe even able to get himself accredited in Thailand a journalist visa could be applicable and therefore become legal that way

[Soutpeel]

So is Internet Marketing considered work.

Example: Writing about weight loss products, send readers to your website and you make affiliate commission on sales. You get paid in $, goes into say paypal account and you withdraw here. This seems not to disimilar to the post above.

If it's work then would you need a degree toget a WP for being an internet marketer?

Yes if you are doing it from Thailand, where the cash is paid is irrelevant

Where does it say in the rules you need a degree to get a WP (for certain types of teacher..yes)

[mongoose11]

So is Internet Marketing considered work.

Example: Writing about weight loss products, send readers to your website and you make affiliate commission on sales. You get paid in $, goes into say paypal account and you withdraw here. This seems not to disimilar to the post above.

If it's work then would you need a degree toget a WP for being an internet marketer?

Yes if you are doing it from Thailand, where the cash is paid is irrelevant

Where does it say in the rules you need a degree to get a WP (for certain types of teacher..yes)

It doesn't I don't think but my friend set up web design company recently and he needed a degree to get WP.

[Mario2008]

Many labour offices set their own rules, not unlike immigration, and demand a degree, while the rules say differently.

[TimTang]

Let me tell my story. First I would like to qualify that I do not condone or recommend any one follow my example because things have changed drastically over the years.

Prior to my pension I worked in Thailand for 15 years and never, ever had a work permit. I did not elect to work without a work permit, the companies I worked for just thought it was a waste of energy, time, and money to do so. I was faced with a choice: I could work without a work permit and feed and support my family, or I could leave and abandon them. Naturally I chose the former.

My first job was in 1992 with President Park. I worked in the Architectural department with about 20 other falangs. None of them had work permits. There was also a team of form-work specialists from Australia, they didn't have work permits either. During the 8 months I worked there we were raided by immigration twice. Each time the entire office was loaded in a paddy wagons and hauled to jail for about 4 hours.

Then Vinai and Vichai (at the time the 3rd and 4th richest men in Thailand) arrived with a briefcase full of money. The next day we were all back to work again - no work permits.

Many companies simply refuse to provide work permits. The key is to be discreet if you are working on the sly, while trying to legitimize yourself in the mean time. Don't devulge any thing about your status that you don't need to and what ever visa you're on, try your best to abide by the rules of that particular visa.

[sydneyjed]

No wife/car in Thailand Southpeel...varies when I have to be there as for example between Sept'/Nov' was there 3 times for 4 weeks,then had to rush back again in mid Nov' for 10 days..does that have a baring on my status?...I actually just bring clients in and others here do the work involved!

[Soutpeel]

Good story....what do you think would have happened if messers Vinai and Vichai had not turned up with the cash ?

[smiling mantis]

I think it's easy to understand the spirit of the law here: don't do anything that can take a job away from a Thai. Moreover, if what you are doing results in money being made from another country but being spent here, all the better.

So things like trading stocks online are fine. Do we have an example of where immigration busted anyone for doing this? No? Then let's use some common sense here. Immigration isn't going to bust somebody for doing something that a tourist might do when staying here on vacation for a week, simply because the publicity would conceivably cost the country millions in lost revenue. Moreover, the odds are you're going to spend all those earnings on upgrading your digs here in the LOS... why would the Thais object to getting more money from you?

The intent here I think is to give immigration the widest possible latitude when going after people who are violating both the spirit and the letter of the law. I don't mind this, since I've always figured I'm here at their pleasure anyways.

But what the Thais need to understand is that by allowing for this kind of law enforcement means a lot of guys are going to think twice before buying property here, because some corrupt official can come along and put them out of the country at will. It's one thing when all you're losing is a girlfriend, or a rental deposit or maybe a motorbike. It's another thing entirely if we're talking about a family, or a car, or a condo they spent the big bucks on and which they thought they owned.

Would a good first step could be to do something like they did with the tourist police, a group within immigration we could appeal to in the event we're getting squeezed by a wayward official? Maybe give common sense a chance to prevail, if only on a case-by-case basis?

[Soutpeel]

No wife/car in Thailand Southpeel...varies when I have to be there as for example between Sept'/Nov' was there 3 times for 4 weeks,then had to rush back again in mid Nov' for 10 days..does that have a baring on my status?...I actually just bring clients in and others here do the work involved!

I wasnt trying to be nosey, was trying to figure out where you base yourself out of and where your ties are, if you where "based" in Thailand and bringing clients into Thailand, then would say IMHO you would require a WP, if you are flying in for Business meetings with "possiblity" of doing business with Thai companies" and negotiating deals with Thai companies and flying out again then would say you should be ok just on a Non-imm B, think it would meet the intent of a Non-imm B

As you can see in the thread the rules are quite vague and very subject to interpretation, so not saying what I am telling you is defintive...its not...its my opinion, a particular immigration official may have a different opinion

If you still a bit nervous of this route, you could set up a representative office in Thailand based on your Aussie company and get a WP, the rules for a representative office are less stringent as regards the requirements over a limited company and would fit with exactly what you are doing....sourching products and services from Thai companies for overseas clients

[TimTang]

Good story....what do you think would have happened if messers Vinai and Vichai had not turned up with the cash ?

We probably would have spent more time in jail, then kicked out of the country. One of the architects was Robert Browning. About 3 buildings on the Hong Kong harbour are his creations, so I think he would have been able to pull a few strings.

The Australian form-work guys were intoducing Slip-Form to Thailand, which at that time was a new technology, so they probably had a few strings to pull as well. The reality was they evetually just decided to leave us alone until the buildings were finished.

That's the development currently on Sukumvit Soi 26. The four sky-scrapers on the corner were actually supposed to be the four NASA space shuttles and each building was named as such. Then they realized that people might avoid buying in the building named after the one that exploded, thinking it would be unlucky, so they renamed all the buildings. But if you look on google-earth from above they still are shaped like space shuttles.

Edited January 9, 2011 by TimTang

[TimTang]

I think it's easy to understand the spirit of the law here: don't do anything that can take a job away from a Thai. Moreover, if what you are doing results in money being made from another country but being spent here, all the better.

Kudos! Well Said, I agree with everything you've presented.

[Gimbo]

Your 1600 baht "beer money" is a more than a weeks wages for a construction worker in this country. Of course it would be considered working, if someone wan't to bring you down for it.

[Soutpeel]

So things like trading stocks online are fine. Do we have an example of where immigration busted anyone for doing this? No? Then let's use some common sense here. Immigration isn't going to bust somebody for doing something that a tourist might do when staying here on vacation for a week, simply because the publicity would conceivably cost the country millions in lost revenue. Moreover, the odds are you're going to spend all those earnings on upgrading your digs here in the LOS... why would the Thais object to getting more money from you?

But what the Thais need to understand is that by allowing for this kind of law enforcement means a lot of guys are going to think twice before buying property here, because some corrupt official can come along and put them out of the country at will. It's one thing when all you're losing is a girlfriend, or a rental deposit or maybe a motorbike. It's another thing entirely if we're talking about a family, or a car, or a condo they spent the big bucks on and which they thought they owned.

Would a good first step could be to do something like they did with the tourist police, a group within immigration we could appeal to in the event we're getting squeezed by a wayward official? Maybe give common sense a chance to prevail, if only on a case-by-case basis?

You are rationalising.....the people day trading/running on-line business' are not "tourists" they are using tourist visas as a vehicle to remain in Thailand long term and financing their lives in Thailand via day trading...so therefore this is not in the spirit of the law, a lot of these people have properties/car's/driver licenses and when it suits them they are trying to get resident certificates from Thailand and I will hazard a guess they are not paying tax on their incomes anywhere.

A genuine tourist comes to Thailand for a specific period of time and then leaves and goes back to their own life somewhere else....I agree with you a genuine tourist would not be busted by immigration for not having a WP....they can prove they are leaving and really here on holiday

Thai immigration doesnt need to understand anything, if they think you are working without a WP, do you really think they are worried about the consequences of someone loosing a car/condo you are very naive if you really thin this

In conclusion IMHO...in the spirit of the law.....someone who lives "permanently" in Thailand on tourist visa and operates an on-line business or day trades to support their presence and life in Thailand is working per the current definitions and differs significantly from someone who is "legally" retired and looks after their financial affairs over the internet

Whether you will get caught while working under the radar is the subject of another discussion

[smiling mantis]

You are rationalising.....the people day trading/running on-line business' are not "tourists" they are using tourist visas as a vehicle to remain in Thailand long term and financing their lives in Thailand via day trading...so therefore this is not in the spirit of the law, a lot of these people have properties/car's/driver licenses and when it suits them they are trying to get resident certificates from Thailand and I will hazard a guess they are not paying tax on their incomes anywhere.

I don't know how it works in the U.K. or other countries, but in the U.S. any money you earn in the U.S., whether it be from online trading or any other online business, gets taxed by the IRS if the money comes from the U.S. regardless of where you actually reside. My comments are not about justifying tax evasion or anything like that; I'm assuming that in any case, taxes are being paid. If you're assuming the opposite, then we're talking about two very different things I think.

And from what I understand, many of us actually would love to be taxed by Thailand, since that's essentially a prerequisite towards citizenship here. It's just that you can't get the work permit to do this, and so therefore you can't pay the taxes because if you did, it's like wearing a sign that says "I'm breaking the law by making money without a work permit!" Trading stocks online is the perfect example. How is Thailand going to issue you a work permit to do something that it is in no way involved in, and that you can do from anywhere in the world? Why would it do this, when that would just send you away to spend your income in some other country?

Let's remember that taxes or no, Thailand wins every time any of us bring money into it from the outside. It adds to their economy. It's one of the reasons why Thailand is so prosperous today.

Now somebody brought up the case where somebody does work here in Thailand but, using the Internet, gets paid offshore, and so the ruse is that they didn't displace a Thai worker in the process, and I get it why Thailand wants to go after these guys. But I don't think anyone here is trying to defend that.

[tombkk]

My business is registered in Oz but spend a fair amount of time in Asia and Thailand..wouldn't say I'm permanently based here ,so is business visa sufficent do you think?

Your answer is very vague

Ok let me ask the question this way

Approximately how many days a year do you do business in Thailand ?

Do you have a house/GF/wife/Car in Thailand and consider Thailand home ?

I don't think this question applies over here. Unlike Germany, where you are taxable if you have "two suits in a permanent place" - this defines you as a permanent resident and makes you liable to income taxes (Boris Becker famously got caught).