What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[Rastaputin]

Tourists taking holiday snaps, regardless of the quality of the camera, have nothing to fear in my opinion, unless snapping away in prohibited locations.

So on which regulation is this your opinion based?

But a professional photographer, who enters Thailand masquerading as a tourist but with the sole intention of taking photo's for publication, and without the appropriate visa and paperwork, is, in my opinion, working, and should have the relevent visa and documents, presumably the same as those issued to journalists.

With emphasis on SOLE intention, I tend to agree with you, based on the "spirit" (whatever this is) of the regulation.

But what about a Pro Photographer coming here on his holiday? He might still bring some of his gear, and even if not, there are numerous examples published worldwide that a good photographer can make commercially salable shots with the cheapest camera you can imagine.

So this Pro comes to Thailand to sample the culture, the beaches ... He shoots Photos. He is being watched by an immigration Officer. What next?

And what if he has no issues about this in Thailand, and later back home he realizes he has done some nice, marketable shots. Is he now breaking the law, because he makes money? Looking at the wording of the rule: That should be no issue! So, in order to stay clear of problems, I guess the best suggestion to him will be to refrain from photographing, as it could lead to potential troubles with the law. Does the TAT know that?

It all comes down to what is considered to be simply going about your normal personal daily affairs. Taking holiday snaps, not working, but doing a photo shoot in pursuance your profession, yes.

Coinsidering that many tourists have very sophisticated cameras, it would be well nigh impossible for immigration to weed out professional photographers who simply mingle in with the crowds.

Are you sure any other country in the world has a similar stupid work regulation? Please post examples from anywhere else in the world!

PS: My example posted before was not constructed. A few weeks ago I was invited to the wedding party of a German couple. They both flew in from Cologne, and had their Wedding celebrated in one of Thailand's beach resorts. About 50 people at the party, they had hired a Thai Pro Photographer to take the wedding shots, but one of their friends, an expat living and working (with Work Permit, but not covering Photography, he is a big dog in one of the German Industry Conglomerates here) is a very talented amateur photographer. He volunteered to take shots, and came with two Nikon D3 Bodies, a 14-24, 24-70 2.8, and 70-200 2.8 zoom, plus 3 Nikon 800 flashes, a Gitzo tripod, and several other accessories, valued around 350.000 Baht if you take the age and condition of the gear into consideration.

And Auntie Martha (name edited here ...) was there too ....

Edited February 4, 2011 by Rastaputin

[Naam]

but one of their friends, an expat living and working (with Work Permit, but not covering Photography, he is a big dog in one of the German Industry Conglomerates here) is a very talented amateur photographer. He volunteered to take shots, and came with two Nikon D3 Bodies, a 14-24, 24-70 2.8, and 70-200 2.8 zoom, plus 3 Nikon 800 flashes, a Gitzo tripod, and several other accessories, valued around 350.000...

if found out the crime warrants 20 years of hard labour in a Thai coal mine, circumcision after time served and deportation in a row boat.

[Soutpeel]

Are you sure any other country in the world has a similar stupid work regulation? Please post examples from anywhere else in the world!

The regulation is not "stupid" per se....it says if you work whether paid or unpaid you need a WP, which makes perfect sense, where the rules fall down is the lack of clarity on what exactly is considered "work"

Currently interpretation is left to an indivdual officals interpretation....therefore in the example cited, if a certain offical decided the guy was working....he was working, as the person concerned actually has a Thai WP, although not for photography, if he pulled the blue book on the official, chances are he would back off, unless the official was really out to get the guy and could quite legally charge the for guy working outside the conditions of his current WP

In just about every country in the world, someone as a Non-resident or citizen of that particular country requires a work visa/permit in some shape or form before being allowed to work.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Soutpeel

[tombkk]

what about all the fralangs that own a bar? most do not have a wp, and what about people who rent out bikes, cars etc etc, again most do not have a wp?

Easy: Have them apply for a work permit, or stop working.

[tombkk]

but one of their friends, an expat living and working (with Work Permit, but not covering Photography, he is a big dog in one of the German Industry Conglomerates here) is a very talented amateur photographer. He volunteered to take shots, and came with two Nikon D3 Bodies, a 14-24, 24-70 2.8, and 70-200 2.8 zoom, plus 3 Nikon 800 flashes, a Gitzo tripod, and several other accessories, valued around 350.000...

if found out the crime warrants 20 years of hard labour in a Thai coal mine, circumcision after time served and deportation in a row boat.

Right on the spot.

[eriksen]

Very interesting question/topic, normally gambling is heavily taxed (western word for tea money?) and trading, also taxed when you make profits and deemed a trader, but normally you can keep a loss for claiming against a future profit (AU) but all we all know, the internet changes many things, even in the west, as for Thailand they do what they think is best for themselves in their way, in their country..... thanks for bringing this up as I am sure there are quite a few "expat online traders" around the globe.. they don't need to "hang around the factory where they work" as long as they are plugged in... will start own thread on this when I get more time..

Also of interest to the above post (but not really the OP) is financial spread betting.

Spread betting is gambling, its classed as such and in the west you dont pay income taxes on it. However spread betting on markets is no different to trading in any other way. You make a bet that a position will rise or fall.

So if betting in Thailand is illegal, why is stock trading not illegal, when does betting become investing and when is it gambling ??

[TigerWan]

People work on the black market the world over ... Yes but persons the world over mostly work in the black market in their own country ... you are vulnerable in Thailand as an alien in the albeit rare event you are challenged by the authorities but also when each 3 months or year you have to get yourself a new visa or extension thereof ... and a lot of people are now it seems having their senses gripped for them.

I think what is established is a B visa is necessary to work . ( And housework and assorted personal tasks and personal property maintenance on any visa do not require a permit. of any kind. )

Such a B visa is able to be renewed on a yearly basis, thus those with valid work visa need not fear the 30 day visa run, but 90 day report is still necessary, but can be done by mail at some places.

Thailand needs to graduate to a less paranoid system and really qualify the the applicants, like Malaysia's MMSH and retirees can now work , within restrictions.

I think all this half baked adherance is really biting it on the butt.

[jazzbo]

Re: Post #247 I will leave the vagaries of B Visas , work permits and extensions to someone else although I believe there is no such thing as a visa 'renewal' ... as to what Thailand needs to graduate its Immigration and Labour policies I believe there is a suggestion box in the lobby of the Ministry of Labour.

[lopburi3]

Work requires a work permit - and a work permit can be issued on a non immigrant visa - it does not have to be a type "B" entry.

A visa is either obtained or an extension of stay is obtained - there is no renewal process for visas.

A "B" or "O" visa that allows a work permit will not allow more than a 90 day stay without an exit of the country. Unless they are eligible and obtain an extension of stay they will have to exit every 90 days.

[TigerWan]

I am mistaken in term, it should be extension, not renewal . Apology.

I extend my B visa on a yearly basis and do not leave the country every 90 days, I do report every 90 days.

I am sure anyone who has to do 30 day visa runs , ( or even 90 ? ), does not possess a valid visa that permits work. as any such a visa , and yes agree another mistake not just B, but any Non O , B etc has one year extensions?

Isn't there a provision for foreign spouses to get WPs?

Edited February 12, 2011 by TigerWan

[lopburi3]

Many people have valid visas and work permits but must leave every 90 days. Either the company does not qualify (new firms will not for first year or two) or income may be too low for nationality for extension but OK for work permit.

There is no provision for spouse to obtain work permits. You find a job and obtain a work permit on that basis. Spouse opens lower requirements for employer so a spouse may have a few more options if meeting qualification of the employer.

[tombkk]

Many people have valid visas and work permits but must leave every 90 days. Either the company does not qualify (new firms will not for first year or two) or income may be too low for nationality for extension but OK for work permit.

There is no provision for spouse to obtain work permits. You find a job and obtain a work permit on that basis. Spouse opens lower requirements for employer so a spouse may have a few more options if meeting qualification of the employer.

People have valid work permits and visas and still have to leave the country, rather than getting these extended in-country?

You may have more experience than I, but in my past 20 years in this country, all people who has work permits could extend them in-country, and extend their visas in-country. In fact, their WPs would be cancelled if they left the county without a re-entry permit pertaining to the same extension of stay which their WP was based on.

One of the perks of the WP is that you don't have to leave the country any more.

[Maestro]

People have valid work permits and visas and still have to leave the country, rather than getting these extended in-country?

...

One of the perks of the WP is that you don't have to leave the country any more.

When you submitted your last application for extension of stay for the reason of employment, what documents did you have to submit to the immigration office in addition to your work permit? (Perhaps somebody in your company does it for you and you don't know the details)

[lopburi3]

Extensions of stay are canceled if you depart without a re-entry permit - it has nothing to do with work permits. In the past you did have to have a valid entry allowing the work permit but now that is not even the case - you just can not work without the valid entry and work permit.

There is a money requirement to extend your stay, which varies by nationality, which is not the same as to obtain a work permit so there have been many people in the position of working here and having to make visa entries every 90 days. This is even more common now with new companies as tax records must be available for extension of stay and they are not for the first two years.

(1) The alien must have a temporary visa

(2) The alien must have an income consistent with that set

out in the Income Table attached hereto; (exhibit a)

3) The business concerned must have a registered capital of

not less than Baht 2 million, fully paid-up;

(4) The business concerned must have duly submitted its

inancial statement as at the end of the two fiscal years and

certified by an auditor or tax auditor, showing a sound

financial condition and an on-going active business as

attached order (exhibit

5) The business needs to employ the aliens

(6) The business concerned must have a ratio of 1 alien to 4

Thai permanent employees.

(7) The following businesses are exempted from the

equirements of clauses (3), (4) and (5), and the ratio of

aliens to Thai employees under clause (6) shall be reduced

o 1:1.

a) International trade enterprise (Representative Office)

Regional Office

© Multinational company (Branch Office)

[tombkk]

People have valid work permits and visas and still have to leave the country, rather than getting these extended in-country?

...

One of the perks of the WP is that you don't have to leave the country any more.

When you submitted your last application for extension of stay for the reason of employment, what documents did you have to submit to the immigration office in addition to your work permit? (Perhaps somebody in your company does it for you and you don't know the details)

Por Ngor Dor 1 for the month in which the WP was issued. Up until then, 30-day extensions. Since then, One-year extension. (New WP for new company was issued in December 2010, so this is pretty up-to-date experience.)

And I say it again: I have never had to leave the country in the last 20 years, because I have a work permit. When I changed companies, I did not have to leave the country but applied for the new work permit with the old visa and extension of stay. Now that they have disconnected the work permit and the extension of stay, I still did not have to leave the country. I got the extension of stay extended based on the new work permit.

[Sophon]

And I say it again: I have never had to leave the country in the last 20 years, because I have a work permit. When I changed companies, I did not have to leave the country but applied for the new work permit with the old visa and extension of stay. Now that they have disconnected the work permit and the extension of stay, I still did not have to leave the country. I got the extension of stay extended based on the new work permit.

You and the people you know didn't have to leave the country because you/they qualified for extensions. Other people with valid work permits do not qualify for extensions and stay here on Non Immigrant visas and have to leave every 90 days.

You seem to want to argue that because you do know anyone with a valid work permit that have to leave the country, then it cannot be true that such people exist. Your posts are just adding confusion to this thread and makes it difficult for people seeking advice to know what to believe. I think you should just accept that Lopburi and Maestro know what they are talking about, it is in deed a fact that there are many people with work permits who do not qualify for extensions. They live here on Non Immigrant visas and leave every 90 days, or they qualify for extensions based on other factors than employment (Thai wife or child).

Sophon

[tombkk]

We all know that the definition of "work" for a foreigner is very problematic.

A few days ago, a Thai government official involved in this matter said in the circle that I was part of, that the problem is not only known to them, but they are actually working on it. JFCCT has been asked for input, and so has the Labour Department.

Knowing how governments all over the world work, it will take some time before we see any changes. However, I think it is important to know that this is being worked on.

[inthepink]

I think it's easy to understand the spirit of the law here: don't do anything that can take a job away from a Thai. Moreover, if what you are doing results in money being made from another country but being spent here, all the better.

So things like trading stocks online are fine. Do we have an example of where immigration busted anyone for doing this? No? Then let's use some common sense here. Immigration isn't going to bust somebody for doing something that a tourist might do when staying here on vacation for a week, simply because the publicity would conceivably cost the country millions in lost revenue. Moreover, the odds are you're going to spend all those earnings on upgrading your digs here in the LOS... why would the Thais object to getting more money from you?

The intent here I think is to give immigration the widest possible latitude when going after people who are violating both the spirit and the letter of the law. I don't mind this, since I've always figured I'm here at their pleasure anyways.

But what the Thais need to understand is that by allowing for this kind of law enforcement means a lot of guys are going to think twice before buying property here, because some corrupt official can come along and put them out of the country at will. It's one thing when all you're losing is a girlfriend, or a rental deposit or maybe a motorbike. It's another thing entirely if we're talking about a family, or a car, or a condo they spent the big bucks on and which they thought they owned.

Would a good first step could be to do something like they did with the tourist police, a group within immigration we could appeal to in the event we're getting squeezed by a wayward official? Maybe give common sense a chance to prevail, if only on a case-by-case basis?

Why are you assuming that you would "lose" a condo that you bought in Thailand just because you were deported? Do you or anybody else on this forum have any evidence that this has ever happened to a foreigner here?

[rocketmanbkk]

This is another ridicilous post, does the OP not have anything better to do/ the posts on Thai Visa really are scraping the bottom of the barrel these days, it is the end?

Basically, if you are working, you are not brain dead, not sipping cold beer in a bar, and you know what constitues work and you have no work visa I hope you get what's coming to you.

There are too many farangs in Thai trying to play the system, English language teachers (i use that term lightly as they are in no way teachers) rarely have WP's.

It doesn't bother me what people do as long as they ar prepared to face the penalties if they are indeed caught, which i suspect a massive proportion are not and are the Thai authorities actually looking? Probably not that hard IMO.

So, if you think you are doing work, you probably are, you know when you are working and when you are not.

Please get a life and if needed either get a WP or STOP working!!!!