After 15 Years In Thailand And Going Back To The Us

[maccaroni man]

my wife and i were watching a movie and there was scene where the cops went into the projects looking for a suspect. the hall ways were full of graffiti, and there were iron bars everywhere the place reminded me of an area in e. oakland that should not be visited anyway the cops knock on a door and a 30 something unemployeed, doped up, welfare recipient lets them in. My wife looks at me and ask: she is poor? look at her big apartment; color tv, big refridgerator, nice furniture? and then says it must be nice to be poor in america.

[Berkshire]

But what of the quality of life for the average American? Is there a wealth gap? Education gap? How about health care? What sorts of stuff really matters at the individual level?

The quality of life for the average American living in America is way better than the average Thai living in Thailand.

I would say that life in Thailand for Western expats living on a Western wage would be better than back home, but you certainly can't prove that from all the whining and complaining every day on Thai Visa.

UG, I'm surprised you would say that the quality of life for the average American is "way better" than the average Thai. I disagree. You're giving way too much weight to average income, which alone cannot gauge standard of living or purchasing power. The cost of living in Thailand is less, certainly, but there are also cultural factors, such as kids living at home with their parents well into adulthood (perfectly normal and acceptable in Thailand). This is unscientific, but the average Thai seems a heck of a lot happier than the average American to me. Also unscientific is that there seems to be a heck of a lot more homeless people in the US than in Thailand. I'd say a majority of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck with little in the way of a "nestegg." More scientific is that there's something like 30 million Americans without healthcare coverage (if not more).

Fact: In the US, the wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%. (Survey of Consumer Finances)

Fact: In the US, the distribution of wealth is much more unequal than the distribution of income, especially when focusing on the bottom 60% of all households. The bottom 60% of households possess only 4% of the nation's wealth while it earns 26.8% of all income. (Survey of Consumer Finances)

Fact: In the US, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, wages are falling behind inflation, and social mobility is at an all-time low. (Business Insider, Apr 2010)

There's a lot more of this stuff on the internet if you have the time to google it. I'm not predicting or even hoping for the demise of the USA (most of my money is still in the US, afterall). But just because a country is wealthy and has the ability to nuke the planet several times over doesn't mean the people are happy there.

[bonobo]

The US is not heaven on earth, and most Americans living in Thailand will be the first to attest to that. But that should not keep people from voicing their opinion when someone here makes outlandish claims.

Exactly!

Yeah.. but are people allowed to disagree with that?

I fully recognise the sentiment the OP showed. While you can factually argue with some of the examples, it can be mighty tough when you have to (through circumstances) spend significant time away from Thailand again.

We must all agree with that to some degree, after all, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Of course people can disagree, and with subjective things, there really isn't much of an argument. If the OP had merely said that he is back in the US and misses Thailand, that he loved his old life there and is not happy being back in Houston, then there wouldn't be much argument, and I would hazard that many of the posters who have taken issue with him here would agree with him. All of us are here for a reason, and dave_boo gave a pretty succinct analysis of that. If I personally had to leave Thailand, I would miss it, too.

But to make factual claims which are just incorrect opens up anyone to correction. And this has nothing to do with the US or Americans. If you made outlandish incorrect claims about Thailand, some posters would feel obligated to comment.

It SEEMS to me, and I am not an expert here, that the OP is unhappy back in the US, and to justify his feelings, is trying to come up with quantifiable reasons for that unhappiness. Most of those reasons are ludicrous, in my opinion. And he poo-poos others when they bring up concrete facts to refute his contentions (e.g. so what if US television is more advanced as he doesn't like what is shown.) Especially as the only thing he needs to accept is the simple fact that he is unhappy in Houston and was happier in Thailand.

[bonobo]

. But just because a country is wealthy and has the ability to nuke the planet several times over doesn't mean the people are happy there.

Not to belabor the point, but this thread is about how Thailand is pretty much superior in every way to the US from technology to driving to schools, etc. And in those contentions, the OP is flat out wrong, both by quantifiable facts and general consensus.

"Happiness" is a whole other subject. I know some rubber tappers in Naratiwat who are very happy in their lives, working 5 hours a day and relaxing the rest, and I know a very successful businessman in San Diego whose stress levels make him extremely unhappy, despite his 7,000 square foot home overlooking the lake, his new Porsche, and his string of young girlfriends.

Happiness is a personal matter, and frankly, I don't know which population has a higher "happiness quotient." But I don't think that happiness is necessarily tied to GDP.

[IanForbes]

UG, I'm surprised you would say that the quality of life for the average American is "way better" than the average Thai. I disagree. You're giving way too much weight to average income, which alone cannot gauge standard of living or purchasing power. The cost of living in Thailand is less, certainly, but there are also cultural factors, such as kids living at home with their parents well into adulthood (perfectly normal and acceptable in Thailand). This is unscientific, but the average Thai seems a heck of a lot happier than the average American to me. Also unscientific is that there seems to be a heck of a lot more homeless people in the US than in Thailand. I'd say a majority of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck with little in the way of a "nestegg." More scientific is that there's something like 30 million Americans without healthcare coverage (if not more).

Fact: In the US, the wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%. (Survey of Consumer Finances)

Fact: In the US, the distribution of wealth is much more unequal than the distribution of income, especially when focusing on the bottom 60% of all households. The bottom 60% of households possess only 4% of the nation's wealth while it earns 26.8% of all income. (Survey of Consumer Finances)

Fact: In the US, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, wages are falling behind inflation, and social mobility is at an all-time low. (Business Insider, Apr 2010)

There's a lot more of this stuff on the internet if you have the time to google it. I'm not predicting or even hoping for the demise of the USA (most of my money is still in the US, afterall). But just because a country is wealthy and has the ability to nuke the planet several times over doesn't mean the people are happy there.

What you say is true to some extent, Berkshire, but the OPPORTUNITY to have a higher standard of living is better in the USA and western countries. In Thailand that is not the truth. There is very little support from the Thai government to achieve any further income other than by illegal and semi-illegal methods... ie. prostitution, theft, bribery, thuggery, extortion, etc.

Thais are locked into a system that just doesn't work properly for people who want to use legal methods to get ahead. There is a poor education system and very little chance for advancement. In the west we have all sorts of programs to help the poor get out of poverty. There are good libraries in every small town and good schools.. The internet is both faster and more reliable. There are social networks that help the poor. In North America you are poor by choice. I've stopped giving to charities in North America but I do help people in Thailand. If they CHOOSE to abuse my help then that is their choice and I stop helping. I no longer give to beggers on the street in Thailand because 90% of them use it as a business, and most of it's run by a mafia.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not predicting or even hoping for the demise of the USA (most of my money is still in the US, afterall).

Thanks for clearing that up. It certainly is not readily apparent from most of your posts about the USA.

[Berkshire]

I'm not predicting or even hoping for the demise of the USA (most of my money is still in the US, afterall).

Thanks for clearing that up. It certainly is not readily apparent from most of your posts about the USA.

Good point, actually. The real "me" is actually much more pro-American than on TV. My Euro and Aussie (and other) friends think that I am too pro-American, if anything. A freakin American nationalist. There's still a lot about America that I love and respect. I still follow American news, sports, entertainment, etc.

The problem is that when I get on TV, I always seem to be defending Thailand against these rabid Thai-bashers and certifiable nutcases (one in the same, in my opinion). These guys talk about Thailand in such a way that you would think their homeland is some sort of freakin Utopia. Well I know what America is and what it isn't. And America is as good or better than any Euro or developed nation. So it's a good reference point when comparing the Thais and other nationalities. You see, it's ok for Americans to complain about America. But if a foreigner were to do it, we'd tell them to go the hell back to where they came from. I have no problem with Thais who subscribe to this attitude.

[bonobo]

I'm not predicting or even hoping for the demise of the USA (most of my money is still in the US, afterall).

Thanks for clearing that up. It certainly is not readily apparent from most of your posts about the USA.

Good point, actually. The real "me" is actually much more pro-American than on TV. My Euro and Aussie (and other) friends think that I am too pro-American, if anything. A freakin American nationalist. There's still a lot about America that I love and respect. I still follow American news, sports, entertainment, etc.

The problem is that when I get on TV, I always seem to be defending Thailand against these rabid Thai-bashers and certifiable nutcases (one in the same, in my opinion). These guys talk about Thailand in such a way that you would think their homeland is some sort of freakin Utopia. Well I know what America is and what it isn't. And America is as good or better than any Euro or developed nation. So it's a good reference point when comparing the Thais and other nationalities. You see, it's ok for Americans to complain about America. But if a foreigner were to do it, we'd tell them to go the hell back to where they came from. I have no problem with Thais who subscribe to this attitude.

I guess I am just reading these posts differently. I don't see most of the posters here bashing Thailand or shouting "USA! USA!" All I see are posters, some not even being American, taking issue with some fairly far out-there comments made by the OP. Many posters have even given the caveats that they like Thailand very much and that all is not perfect in the USA.

If a poster came on here and posted that Thai maple syrup is better than Canadian, and another poster pointed out that that was ludicrous, that is not Thai bashing nor Canadian trumpeting. If a poster contends that Russian beaches are warmer than Thai beaches, and a poster takes issue with that, then that is not Russian bashing nor Thai trumpeting.

In my opinion, the feel of the posters who have taken issue with the OP is not bashing Thailand at all. It is merely pointing out that they disagree with the OP's contentions.

[Berkshire]

I guess I am just reading these posts differently. I don't see most of the posters here bashing Thailand or shouting "USA! USA!" All I see are posters, some not even being American, taking issue with some fairly far out-there comments made by the OP. Many posters have even given the caveats that they like Thailand very much and that all is not perfect in the USA.

In my opinion, the feel of the posters who have taken issue with the OP is not bashing Thailand at all. It is merely pointing out that they disagree with the OP's contentions.

Bonobo, when I talk about Thai-bashing, I wasn't necessarily referring to this thread specifically. I can give you countless examples of various posts throughout this website. I just read something the other day (in the news site regarding abortion in Thailand) where some idiot suggested that it was normal behavior for Thai men to rape Thai women. That kind of lunacy is what I'm talking about.

I understand the OP's contention that although America is expected to be the leader in pretty much every respect, this may "surprisingly" not be the case, even compared to little ol Thailand. In other words, if you were to walk into Bill Gates home, you would expect it to be much nicer than, say, Joe Blow the plumbers house. But if this wasn't the case, then it would be "news," so to speak. The OP is reporting "news."

[mark45y]

I left Thailand after two years in 1970 and returned to Denver.

I worked in Denver during the week and skied in Vail on the weekends.

It was a nice change. In 1970 all the beautiful people were in Vail and Aspen. John Denver was singing, “Rocky Mountain High” and I was a peace with the world. The air was clean and Vail was new and like a fairy tale alpine village. Outside of Aspen in Glenwood Springs was a giant hot spring pool where we spent one New Years eve after skiing all day.

The women were beautiful and I was a weekend ski bum. I didn't miss Thailand at all.

Then my company transferred me to Chicago after two years in Colorado. Chicago was old, the women were big boned Eastern European types and mostly overweight and angry. The men in Chicago dressed better than I did, coming from the mountains to the big city. I wore an orange down parka, jeans and cowboy boots. Chicago guys work camel hair overcoats, $2000 dollar suits and hand made shoes. I felt like a country bumpkin. The ladies in my office even used to send me for coffee, nor realizing I was an executive. It took me an entire sexless year to adjust and buy a whole new wardrobe. But even when I did the Playboy Bunnies were among the most surface, empty headed women I had ever met. They made Bangkok streetwalkers seem like deep soulful, faithful gems of femininity. I started to miss Thailand.

My daughter wrote me today, she is coming to Singapore for a vacation. She asked me why I didn't retire to Singapore or Florida. I bank in Singapore and I used to live in Florida. I told her, “no action, honey.” She said, “Dad don't you think it is a bit silly to be looking for action at 65?”

[Jingthing]

The unemployment rate in the US is about 10 percent and that doesn't include the REAL unemployment rate which means people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits and/or have stopped even looking for work, as they have lost hope of finding work. Not to mention the extremely underemployed, those offered very few hours, not enough hours for any health benefits, employed well under their skill/education level. So the real rate is most likely over 20 percent. I detest it when people imply that people who are poor in America are that way by choice. That is a baldfaced falsehood and cop out. Some, yes. Most, no. Don't even get me started about the inequalities in the education system for people from poor areas, and quite often their is a race factor in that as well. Yes there are opportunities for SOME poor from those areas, like charter schools, but as of now, only a small minority have access to those choices. Also, what percentage of the millions of people who have lost their houses to foreclosure or short sales in the last few years "chose" to face that horrible, soul crushing, pain?

Edited January 13, 2011 by Jingthing

[phetaroi]

Bonobo, when I talk about Thai-bashing, I wasn't necessarily referring to this thread specifically. I can give you countless examples of various posts throughout this website. I just read something the other day (in the news site regarding abortion in Thailand) where some idiot suggested that it was normal behavior for Thai men to rape Thai women. That kind of lunacy is what I'm talking about.

You're correct. But in terms of this specific example, the hyperbole may be a bit understandable. It's all too easy to walk past a hotel -- even the really good ones -- and have a taxi driver pull out his pics and offer you a woman, a man, a boy, or a girl for sex. The one place those offers were made to me repeatedly and over many years, was right in front of the Amari Watergate Hotel. That's Thaonon Phetburi. Hardly a sleazy part of town.

[mark45y]

Bonobo, when I talk about Thai-bashing, I wasn't necessarily referring to this thread specifically. I can give you countless examples of various posts throughout this website. I just read something the other day (in the news site regarding abortion in Thailand) where some idiot suggested that it was normal behavior for Thai men to rape Thai women. That kind of lunacy is what I'm talking about.

You're correct. But in terms of this specific example, the hyperbole may be a bit understandable. It's all too easy to walk past a hotel -- even the really good ones -- and have a taxi driver pull out his pics and offer you a woman, a man, a boy, or a girl for sex. The one place those offers were made to me repeatedly and over many years, was right in front of the Amari Watergate Hotel. That's Thaonon Phetburi. Hardly a sleazy part of town.

I ran a hotel in Little Rock AR when Bill Clinton was the Attorney General of that State and my occupancy rate was 110% because of the hot sheet trade. I turned rooms two and three times a day because the maid would check on anyone who registered with a local license plate. I could walk down the streets of Little Rock only a few blocks from the capital and get propositioned by at least 100 women in a half hour any night of the week. You could ask my head bell boy for anything and get it in 20 minutes or less if you had the cash. Anything! It was a Holiday Inn.

There was a little town in Idaho that was famous for selling Texans frozen deer and elk, so they could tell their wives they had been on a hunting trip. Every night the hotels in town at dusk would turn into the best little gambling casinos and whore houses in the North West.

Ponca city OK, had the wildest strip club/brothel I have ever seen in my life that would put anything in Pattaya to shame.

I was riding down the elevator one morning at 6 AM for breakfast in Paducah Kentucky and there was a guy finishing his evening held up by three obvious ladies of the night, all drunk. I still remember what he said, “It sure don't take long to get a nights sleep in Paducah Kentucky.”

I have been in the hotel business all of my life and nothing surprises me anymore. Thailand may be a bit more up front but the difference is minor for the average business traveler.

Edited January 13, 2011 by mark45y

[R123]

My daughter wrote me today, she is coming to Singapore for a vacation. She asked me why I didn't retire to Singapore or Florida. I bank in Singapore and I used to live in Florida. I told her, "no action, honey." She said, "Dad don't you think it is a bit silly to be looking for action at 65?"

-Excuse me if what I say below this has been covered already as I have not ploughed through all the pages of postings.

But the quote about by mark is indicative why many people are in Thailand and will stay here. Plenty of honey plus the fact that general speaking amongst the locals they are not ageist or bothered about age as in USA/England/Europe etc.In many western countries the worst discrimination is against people simply because of their age.

In Thailand usually nobody bothers that an over 60 farang goes with a 20+ something Thai!

Try that back in your own country and see what happens.....

[mark45y]

My daughter wrote me today, she is coming to Singapore for a vacation. She asked me why I didn't retire to Singapore or Florida. I bank in Singapore and I used to live in Florida. I told her, "no action, honey." She said, "Dad don't you think it is a bit silly to be looking for action at 65?"

-Excuse me if what I say below this has been covered already as I have not ploughed through all the pages of postings.

But the quote about by mark is indicative why many people are in Thailand and will stay here. Plenty of honey plus the fact that general speaking amongst the locals they are not ageist or bothered about age as in USA/England/Europe etc.In many western countries the worst discrimination is against people simply because of their age.

In Thailand usually nobody bothers that an over 60 farang goes with a 20+ something Thai!

Try that back in your own country and see what happens.....

It really angers your ex wife.

Kids get used to it after a while and start to relate to the new wife/GF like a friend. Neighbors stop talking to you. Guys make sarcastic comments like, “I wonder who's keeping that.”

Young guys hit on your wife when you go out because they don't realize she is with you or think she is your daughter. A lot of people refer to her as your daughter this is odd when checking into a hotel and can create problems when showing up for dinner reservations.

You learn it is better not to take her to company parties.

Eventually you quit your corporate job and start your own business. Your mother might occasionally refer to her as a tart.

[maccaroni man]

my 35 yr old daughter told me i dated girls too young and i told her she better get used to it because pretty soon they would be younger than her.

[maccaroni man]

The unemployment rate in the US is about 10 percent and that doesn't include the REAL unemployment rate which means people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits and/or have stopped even looking for work, as they have lost hope of finding work. Not to mention the extremely underemployed, those offered very few hours, not enough hours for any health benefits, employed well under their skill/education level. So the real rate is most likely over 20 percent. I detest it when people imply that people who are poor in America are that way by choice. That is a baldfaced falsehood and cop out. Some, yes. Most, no. Don't even get me started about the inequalities in the education system for people from poor areas, and quite often their is a race factor in that as well. Yes there are opportunities for SOME poor from those areas, like charter schools, but as of now, only a small minority have access to those choices. Also, what percentage of the millions of people who have lost their houses to foreclosure or short sales in the last few years "chose" to face that horrible, soul crushing, pain?

it seems to me that it is always easier to be a victim and ask for pity rather than pulling ones self up by the boot straps and holding ones self accountable, for all personal mistakes and successes. Lets be honest the poor in America have free health care, it is the working middle class family that suffers from the high insurance premium and no hospital will ever refuse emergancy care, many of the repoes in the realestate market are because the people bought without the means to afford a down payment much less a down market, who is to blame for this? imo the govt for allowing such loans to be made. I subscribe to the belief that there are no accidents and there are no victims, i ask not and want not. i've had my ups and downs and i have never blamed anyone, life is what it is, and the choices i make result in the life i live. too bad so many of the liberals who want to save everyone do not see how much they are actually hurting the very people they want to help by giving them a reason not to hold themselves accountable.

[phetaroi]

Fact: In the US, the wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%. (Survey of Consumer Finances)

Fact: In the US, the distribution of wealth is much more unequal than the distribution of income, especially when focusing on the bottom 60% of all households. The bottom 60% of households possess only 4% of the nation's wealth while it earns 26.8% of all income. (Survey of Consumer Finances)

Fact: In the US, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, wages are falling behind inflation, and social mobility is at an all-time low. (Business Insider, Apr 2010)

There's a lot more of this stuff on the internet if you have the time to google it. I'm not predicting or even hoping for the demise of the USA (most of my money is still in the US, afterall). But just because a country is wealthy and has the ability to nuke the planet several times over doesn't mean the people are happy there.

Goggling it is one thing. Using the facts correctly is quite another. What the wealthiest families own has little to do with the quality of life of most of the rest of society. When my mother was still living, she was below the poverty line. Yet she had a decent house, ate reasonably well, had sufficient heat/air conditioning, had a decent car, and so forth. She got the medical care that was needed, in her case, that was a lot due to her heart conditions.

The November annual inflation rate in the U.S. was 1.14%.

And frankly, since I've moved back here, even in the midst of the Great Recession, I've yet to meet a person that isn't glad to be living here.

[phetaroi]

Bonobo, when I talk about Thai-bashing, I wasn't necessarily referring to this thread specifically. I can give you countless examples of various posts throughout this website. I just read something the other day (in the news site regarding abortion in Thailand) where some idiot suggested that it was normal behavior for Thai men to rape Thai women. That kind of lunacy is what I'm talking about.

You're correct. But in terms of this specific example, the hyperbole may be a bit understandable. It's all too easy to walk past a hotel -- even the really good ones -- and have a taxi driver pull out his pics and offer you a woman, a man, a boy, or a girl for sex. The one place those offers were made to me repeatedly and over many years, was right in front of the Amari Watergate Hotel. That's Thaonon Phetburi. Hardly a sleazy part of town.

I ran a hotel in Little Rock AR when Bill Clinton was the Attorney General of that State and my occupancy rate was 110% because of the hot sheet trade. I turned rooms two and three times a day because the maid would check on anyone who registered with a local license plate. I could walk down the streets of Little Rock only a few blocks from the capital and get propositioned by at least 100 women in a half hour any night of the week. You could ask my head bell boy for anything and get it in 20 minutes or less if you had the cash. Anything! It was a Holiday Inn.

There was a little town in Idaho that was famous for selling Texans frozen deer and elk, so they could tell their wives they had been on a hunting trip. Every night the hotels in town at dusk would turn into the best little gambling casinos and whore houses in the North West.

Ponca city OK, had the wildest strip club/brothel I have ever seen in my life that would put anything in Pattaya to shame.

I was riding down the elevator one morning at 6 AM for breakfast in Paducah Kentucky and there was a guy finishing his evening held up by three obvious ladies of the night, all drunk. I still remember what he said, “It sure don't take long to get a nights sleep in Paducah Kentucky.”

I have been in the hotel business all of my life and nothing surprises me anymore. Thailand may be a bit more up front but the difference is minor for the average business traveler.

No, Thailand is not "a bit more up front". It's in your face.

Why would you run a sleazy hotel? $$$$$?

[mark45y]

Bonobo, when I talk about Thai-bashing, I wasn't necessarily referring to this thread specifically. I can give you countless examples of various posts throughout this website. I just read something the other day (in the news site regarding abortion in Thailand) where some idiot suggested that it was normal behavior for Thai men to rape Thai women. That kind of lunacy is what I'm talking about.

You're correct. But in terms of this specific example, the hyperbole may be a bit understandable. It's all too easy to walk past a hotel -- even the really good ones -- and have a taxi driver pull out his pics and offer you a woman, a man, a boy, or a girl for sex. The one place those offers were made to me repeatedly and over many years, was right in front of the Amari Watergate Hotel. That's Thaonon Phetburi. Hardly a sleazy part of town.

I ran a hotel in Little Rock AR when Bill Clinton was the Attorney General of that State and my occupancy rate was 110% because of the hot sheet trade. I turned rooms two and three times a day because the maid would check on anyone who registered with a local license plate. I could walk down the streets of Little Rock only a few blocks from the capital and get propositioned by at least 100 women in a half hour any night of the week. You could ask my head bell boy for anything and get it in 20 minutes or less if you had the cash. Anything! It was a Holiday Inn.

There was a little town in Idaho that was famous for selling Texans frozen deer and elk, so they could tell their wives they had been on a hunting trip. Every night the hotels in town at dusk would turn into the best little gambling casinos and whore houses in the North West.

Ponca city OK, had the wildest strip club/brothel I have ever seen in my life that would put anything in Pattaya to shame.

I was riding down the elevator one morning at 6 AM for breakfast in Paducah Kentucky and there was a guy finishing his evening held up by three obvious ladies of the night, all drunk. I still remember what he said, “It sure don't take long to get a nights sleep in Paducah Kentucky.”

I have been in the hotel business all of my life and nothing surprises me anymore. Thailand may be a bit more up front but the difference is minor for the average business traveler.

No, Thailand is not "a bit more up front". It's in your face.

Why would you run a sleazy hotel? $$$$$?

I don't remember exactly but at the time I believe there were about 500 company owned Holiday Inns. Mine had a Holidome and was listed as the 5th most profitable Holiday Inn in the world. Sleazy, hardly. Managers came from all over the country to ask me how to run such a profitable hotel.

I remember one weekend I even kicked the hookers out of the bar. We were hosting the University of Nebraska football team and coaching staff and they had a reputation as being a bit narrow minded. My assistant manager, looking exasperated asked, “what do I tell the hookers?” I said, “tell them to go to the Hilton for a night.”

Hookers and hotels go together like Thai girls and ATM machines.

What you call “in your face” I call a breath of fresh air and an honest evaluation of meeting the needs of the marketplace.

[IanForbes]

The unemployment rate in the US is about 10 percent and that doesn't include the REAL unemployment rate which means people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits and/or have stopped even looking for work, as they have lost hope of finding work. Not to mention the extremely underemployed, those offered very few hours, not enough hours for any health benefits, employed well under their skill/education level. So the real rate is most likely over 20 percent. I detest it when people imply that people who are poor in America are that way by choice. That is a baldfaced falsehood and cop out. Some, yes. Most, no. Don't even get me started about the inequalities in the education system for people from poor areas, and quite often their is a race factor in that as well. Yes there are opportunities for SOME poor from those areas, like charter schools, but as of now, only a small minority have access to those choices. Also, what percentage of the millions of people who have lost their houses to foreclosure or short sales in the last few years "chose" to face that horrible, soul crushing, pain?

That is what the poor WANT you to believe, Jingthing. All I go for as a comparison is when Asians come to North America with nothing but the clothes they are wearing, and within 10 years they own the joint. Just why is that?

During the second World War the native Japanese Canadians and Americans had their property stolen off them and they were stuffed into horrid concentration camps. After the war they were turned loose with nothing but their own creativity and resolute work ethic. Where are they today? I'll tell you where they are. They own big businesses, they have large property holdings and their children all attended university. If you check the wellfair data base you'll hardly ever find a Japanese name on the list. And, they did that DESPITE racial prejudice and hatred from the local Americans and Canadians.

When I hear all the complaints about racism being the cause of so many people's problems I listen with a jaundiced ear.

Yes, there are a lot of complaints about the "wetback" Mexicans coming to America and causing problems, but I sure see a lot of them taking jobs that native born Americans and Canadians won't do. I listen to a lot of complaints from people who haven't applied themselves in a fashion that is just normal for a Thai.

[bonobo]

The unemployment rate in the US is about 10 percent and that doesn't include the REAL unemployment rate which means people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits and/or have stopped even looking for work, as they have lost hope of finding work. Not to mention the extremely underemployed, those offered very few hours, not enough hours for any health benefits, employed well under their skill/education level. So the real rate is most likely over 20 percent. I detest it when people imply that people who are poor in America are that way by choice. That is a baldfaced falsehood and cop out. Some, yes. Most, no. Don't even get me started about the inequalities in the education system for people from poor areas, and quite often their is a race factor in that as well. Yes there are opportunities for SOME poor from those areas, like charter schools, but as of now, only a small minority have access to those choices. Also, what percentage of the millions of people who have lost their houses to foreclosure or short sales in the last few years "chose" to face that horrible, soul crushing, pain?

The expression "choose to" when used like this doesn't actually mean that if you asked someone, they would say "Sure, I want to be poor." But the post to which you are objecting is in a major way true. In the US, if you are poor, that is usually due to your own actions or inactions.

There is a caveat to this, though. Depending on the circumstances of your birth, it can be much, much harder to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and in some cases, only a very few have the discipline and fortitude to do so. If you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth, it is much easier to be successful in life, although some fail and plummet to the depths. And if you are born into abject poverty, in an area of substandard schools, where other attack you for succeeding in school, it is much easier to fade back into obscurity and endemic poverty. But some people won't accept that, and they claw and fight their way to success.

As a Marine, I know many, many men who had nothing at birth. The odds were so stacked against them that it is a surprise they even made it to adulthood. But at some point, they said enough was enough, and they enlisted. Thirty years later, they retire to a comfortable life with a house and car, kids going to college. They are firmly "middle class." One friend has three kids, all physicians now. In a better, fairer world, maybe he could have been a physician, too, but at least he was able to escape poverty and allow his kids to realize their potential. The military option is open to the vast majority of the population. Sure most people don't like it. But not liking it is a choice.

I am happy I was brought up in a middle class family and went to decent schools. I am glad I didn't face the same hurdles that many other people faced. But the fact is that in the US, pretty much everyone can make it if they have the drive and determination. You can't say that about everywhere in the world.

[Jingthing]

The FACTS about this is that these days upward class mobility is now easier in Western Europe than in the USA. Not to mention the obscene gaps between rich and poor and the massive percentage of wealth ownership held by a tiny minority in the US compares well with Thailand. Yet some of you want to hang on to tired old myths and/or republican propaganda. Right wingers/libertarians sell the idea to the poor that everyone in the US can be rich, so they get the suckers to keep voting against their own economic self interest, believing that pablum that they too might be rich someday. Some will, the vast majority won't.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[bonobo]

The FACTS about this is that these days upward class mobility is now easier in Western Europe than in the USA. Not to mention the obscene gaps between rich and poor and the massive percentage of wealth ownership held by a tiny minority in the US compares well with Thailand. Yet some of you want to hang on to tired old myths and/or republican propaganda. Right wingers/libertarians sell the idea to the poor that everyone in the US can be rich, so they get the suckers to keep voting against their own economic self interest, believing that pablum that they too might be rich someday. Some will, the vast majority won't.

Whether upward class mobility is greater in Europe is not the issue here. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't profess to know. But in the US, upwards class mobility is possible, and compared with Thailand, it is undoubtedly greater.

And while the vast majority of the poor in the US would have an extremely hard time being "rich" without resorting to crime, the fact is that the vast majority can get out of poverty and enter the middle if they have the drive and discipline.

[Ulysses G.]

It's all a Republican conspiracy to trick people into thinking that hard work will bring one success.

[Jingthing]

It's all a Republican conspiracy to trick people into thinking that hard work will bring one success.

Slaves work very hard. Are they successful?

Are you actually in touch with what's happening in the US these days? Massive unemployment. Overall decline in living standards. There is a sea change happening. My hope is that Americans can grow to accept the end of bubble living without devolving into something very ugly politically.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[mark45y]

I used to own 10 fast food restaurants in Texas. I bought into a franchise after I left the hotel business. Fast food restaurants hire a lot of Mexicans in Texas both legal and illegal.

Pedro started out washing dishes he was first generation his father was a bricklayer from Mexico. Pedro was strong honest and all hustle. He went from minimum wage dishwasher to assistant manager in a year.

I told him I was having a problem at my units in Victoria. I told him the Mexican labor was lazy and stupid. Pedro said, “no way are Mexicans lazy or stupid.” I said, “OK Pedro you come to Victoria and take over one of the restaurants.” He did and in a month was ready to come back to Houston. I asked him what the problem was. He told me, “the Mexicans in Victoria are lazy and stupid.” A lot of Mexicans in Texas have been there since before Texas was part of America. Some Mexicans own substantial parts of Texas. Victoria Texas used to be the capital of Mexican Texas. The minimum wage Mexicans in Victoria are lazy and stupid but they have been lazy and stupid in Victoria for at least 5 generations. If they were not lazy and stupid they would be rich as a lot of Mexicans in Victoria fly their private planes and helicopters to Houston to shop. There are energetic poor people like Pedro and lazy and stupid poor people who even with every advantage including free land like the original Mexicans in Texas had still end up with nothing.

[Jingthing]

I didn't come to Thailand to hear slurs against Mexicans.

[happyrobert]

I didn't come to Thailand to hear slurs against Mexicans.

He said Pedro was sharp and even Pedro said the others were stupid and lazy.

Why don't you go back to the States if you wish to espouse PC?

I didn't come to Thailand to hear political correctness!

Edited January 14, 2011 by happyrobert

[Jingthing]

I didn't come to Thailand to hear slurs against Mexicans.

He said Pedro was sharp and even Pedro said the others were stupid and lazy.

Why don't you go back to the States if you wish to espouse PC?

I didn't come to Thailand to hear political correctness!

I think he used his Pedro story to spread his prejudice about Mexicans in general. Kind of like when in the old days white people would say a black man like Obama was a "credit to his race." Its a ploy.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jingthing