jfchandler Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Jim, let me answer your question, and suggest I think you're amiss in a couple of respects.... And, if you've got a card with a Visa logo on the front, and Cirrus on the back, CitiBank machines will defer to Cirrus, which is their network of choice, and which is the brand on all their cards. But when you get to Aeon, your Visa logo allows you to ride the PLUS network -- since Cirrus is not an option. And you reap the fairer exchange rate of the PLUS network. Jim, FWIW, I have noticed the same exchange rate discrepancy between the AEON and CitiBank ATMs on close to simultaneous withdrawals using other flavors of cards, including when VISA logo (PLUS on the reverse) cards are used. That would seem to suggest something different going on from what you lay out above. I don't quite follow, JFC... From what I understand, AEON has severed their association with MC/Cirrus. So, a MC logo and a Cirrus mention won't work anymore at AEON (as, I believe, someone reported). Your card has to have at least a Visa logo -- or a PLUS mention. IMO. No Jim, I don't believe AEON has made any change, and people can still use MC logo cards at AEON ATMs... The change was made at Cap One, who switched their ATM only card (non VISA non MC) from the PLUS network to the CIRRUS only network in late January. In the past, the Cap One straight ATM PLUS network cards worked fine in AEON ATMs, because in addition to accepting VISA and MC logo cards, AEON ATMs also have stickers saying they accept PLUS network cards. However, the AEON ATMs don't display any sticker saying they accept CIRRUS only network cards. So in the absence of a VISA or MC affiliation, it seems likely the reports are correct that Cap One's straight ATM cards with only CIRRUS affiliation will no longer work at AEON ATMs. My example cited the the other U.S. bank VISA logo, Cirrus network debit card that worked fine in the AEON ATMs yesterday. So my presumption was, if a VISA/Cirrus debit card worked fine with AEON, then so should a MC/Cirrus debit card like those used by Cap One with their checking accounts. Oh, do those CitiBank ATMs have a Visa or PLUS logo? Would be enlightening to go there with a MC/Cirrus card and a strictly Visa/PLUS card -- and take out money from the same machine, back to back, and compare the exchange rates.... That's really the same kind of test I was suggesting above by doing simultaneous Cap One credit card purchases, one with their VISA card and the other with their MC/Cirrus card. BTW, I noticed that the Cap One VISA logo credit card has NO network affiliation listed on the reverse... But as for the CitiBank ATMs at Asoke, I did take note of that the other day... I looked and looked, and I couldn't find any stickers displayed there showing any card network affiliations or what kind of cards their ATMs would accept. And those are brand new ATMs, just having been installed in the new CitiBank HQ facility there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 what is it you particularly don't like about Thai bank debit cards? [First, I know you have found some debit cards that offer some attractive cash back awards. However, the required frequency of use per month negated any value to me.] Debit cards have absolutely no benefits superior to a credit card (and actually have several negatives) -- unless you don't qualify for a credit card, or (relatedly) you're a credit junkie who cannot pay off your credit card bill in-full monthly. I don't think any of us participating here are in that category.... Debit card fraud can clean out your bank account -- and means awaiting a refill, and a new card. Credit card fraud means canceling the fraudulent charge, and awaiting a new credit card. Your bank account is completely unaffected. In the States, after debit card fraud, yes, that bank account will be refilled in 2-3 business days. However, it's probably during those 2-3 days that your automatic debits will come due -- and will bounce (not so when credit card fraud happens). In Thailand, there's no guarantee your account will be refilled in 2-3 business days. In fact, there's no guarantee it will be completely refilled at all...... (this from, admittedly, several-year old reports; maybe Ian can update this...). Your credit card will never be refused, unlike a debit card, because of 'insufficient funds in your bank account to cover the charge.' In fact, if you're 'short a little' for that charge, it will still go thru -- and you'll have up to almost 60 days -- no less than 25 -- to ensure the money gets into your bank account before payment time. (If you can't get the money to refill your bank account sufficiently to pay in-full at settlement time, yes, you're a credit bum -- and by all means switch to a debit card -- which will keep you on the straight and narrow.) My USAA credit cards give me 1% cash back. Their debit cards, on the same checking account, only give .5% back. I dunno. I thought it was well understood that, given the option and the discipline, credit cards are superior to debit cards. From flyerguide: * When making a point-of-sale purchase, notwithstanding the fees (see below), it is usually better to use a credit card than a debit card, since if your card is stolen you can easily dispute the charges on a credit card and simply switch to using another credit card for the duration of your trip, while a stolen debit card may lead to an overdrawn bank account requiring many additional hassles. Credit card companies will also protect you if you are charged more than you agreed to pay, if you pay for something and never receive it, or if your card is cloned (duplicated) without your knowledge and then used for fraud without being physically stolen. For this reason some experts do not recommend using debit cards except at ATMs. * Credit cards also may include other benefits such as cancellation insurance for flights (usually only in the case of serious sickness), theft or loss insurance for goods (usually only if stolen within 90 days of purchase and a proper police report is filed), collision insurance for rental cars, and emergency health insurance in certain situations while you are travelling. And, right now, my US credit card gives me more value than using a BB debit card -- at least up to $8700 in ACHed money (per previous discussion). When I get my Cap One credit card, I'll always be financially ahead of using a BB debit card -- but more importantly, much more secure from the affects of fraud. JFC, why do you opt to use a debit card -- other than for the cash-back points I alluded to at the beginning of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Jim, your original comment was that you didn't particularly like THAI bank debit cards... And I asked you to elaborate on that... And indeed, I agree 100% about debit cards as relates to those issued by Thai banks, for exactly the reasons you mentioned... I just wanted you to spell those out so everyone could see as well. The basic bottom line is, as far as we know, and especially for farang, the Thai bank debit cards carry virtually no dependable consumer fraud protections, and certainly none offered by the card networks themselves. If a cardholder loses funds due to fraudulent ATM activity or due to fraudulent POS transactions, from all reports here, it's good luck to the cardholder in having any hope of getting those funds returned. That and things like, for example, BKK Bank previously having a default daily spending limit of 500,000 baht on their cards, creates the potential for real nightmares... Now, as far as I'm concerned, U.S. bank debit cards are entirely different matter. Unlike their Thai counterparts, the U.S. bank cards are generally covered by VISA USA's $0 fraud liability protection. And all U.S. debit cards are covered by a federal consumer protection law that limits a cardholder's liability to no more than $50 if they report the card within two days of LEARNING of any fraud (not within two days of when the fraud occurred, since the cardholder might not become aware of it initially). And in many cases, the bank will simply return all of the funds if it's clear the cardholder was not involved.... The reason I have been a fan of U.S. debit cards in recent years is because of so-called rewards checking accounts, which are not, BTW, cash back deals like PIB's credit card rebates. Instead, RCA's work basically like this... In exchange for using the card 10 to 15 times in a month, and usually making 1 no-cost ACH in or out during the month, the cardholder would earn 4% to 5% interest on all funds in their account up to $25,000, and have all or most ATM fees rebated... That typically could have amounted to close to $100 interest per month on the maximum balance... For the last two years, when regular FDIC insured savings and checking accounts were paying 1 or 2% APY interest, to get 4 or 5% interest on an RCA account for doing things you'd do anyway (buying groceries, gas for the car, household expenses with the debit card) was a very good deal in my view. Unfortunately, especially at the end of last year, many of the banks and CU's offering the best RCAs began substantially cutting their rates and often also their maximum balances for earning the bonus interest... Right now, U.S. RCAs at their best are paying about 3% interest and the maximum balance has fallen in many cases to $10K to $15K... Still, considering that rate is about 3 times the 1% or less rate that regular bank accounts are paying, it still can be a worthwhile deal... And the RCA accounts are FDIC insured in exactly the same way as other U.S. bank accounts. In sum, it's an entirely different environment and proposition from those that exist for Thai bank debit cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurelius Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 BKK Bank has a chip only debit card which enables cardholders to avoid most of the fraud risks JFC mentions. However, one of the limitations therefore is that it can only be used in chip-enabled ATMs (most, but not all, BKK bank machines), and all thai pos, but not US POS, which is mainly still mag stripe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgm005 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I can verify that the Capital One ATM card with no Visa or MC logo (just PLUS logo on back) had stopped working at AEON ATMS. It started around end of December. Beginning of January. I used same in AEON in Central Festival Khon Kaen and in Paragon ATMS. Would get 'Invalid Transaction'. At 1st the message was hit and miss. Sometimes get it, try a few minutes later and would get go through. I had made 'numerous' calls back to Capital One about the message and no one there had a clue other then to say 'try again'. For the last month I have been in an area where there is no AEON ATM and now that I am in BKK I got the familiar message of invalid transaction. Surfed into this thread and now, I think, know why the bloody hassle. Snipped .... Their ATM card (no VISA or MC logo) associated with their savings accounts, which now runs thru the Cirrus network, apparently will not work since AEON appears to not accept Cirrus cards. However, I've yet to be able to make that kind of withdrawal to be able to personally confirm it. However, the denial has been reported here by another TV member who tried it. snipped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 That's correct... Unfortunately, the BKK Bank chip card also cannot be used with ANY other Thai bank ATMs even inside Thailand, according to my last conversation with BKK Bank branch staff a few weeks back. And from what the branch staff explained, it also could not be used for cash withdrawals from U.S. ATMs either. And of course, BKK Bank charges for issuance of the card and an annual renewal fee as well... which seems to be the prevailing policy among Thai banks. On the other hand, I've never ever been charged either an issuance fee or a replacement card fee by any U.S. bank for a debit/ATM card, and they are all covered by U.S. consumer protection laws that very significantly limit cardholder liability for theft/fraud, unlike their Thai counterparts. I did, unfortunately, have my wallet stolen with a U.S. VISA debit card inside during a BTS trip a few months back. Within an hour, whomever stole it ran up the $1,000 daily limit in POS purchases at local stores. I reported the card stolen within an hour of its theft, followed up with a Thai police report, and had all my funds restored by my U.S. bank within 2 weeks of the original theft, and within about 1 week of having delivered copies of all the necessary documents and police report to my bank... I keep asking the question and getting no authoritative answer: What would a Thai bank have done under identical circumstances? BKK Bank has a chip only debit card which enables cardholders to avoid most of the fraud risks JFC mentions. However, one of the limitations therefore is that it can only be used in chip-enabled ATMs (most, but not all, BKK bank machines), and all thai pos, but not US POS, which is mainly still mag stripe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinique Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Pib, I think that ascribes too much knowledge and initiative on the part of your average low-wage cashier, whether at Sizzler or elsewhere... My guess would be instead that at any given business, the manager or supervisors train the new and existing staff on how to do things... And someone has to explain to them the detail of how to handle credit/debit card transactions... And so at the places that try to do DCC, it's probably because the manager or supervisors at that particular place have instructed the staff that when they get a non-Thai card, they're supposed to process it in a particular way... And it may well be because those managers, but I think not the staff, know it will mean somewhat better profit on the transaction. In my experience, most of the time, the line level staff don't know the difference in what they're doing between DCC and charging in baht... They're just following whatever routine they've been given. I've been in a couple of places where the line staff didn't know how to do it any other way, and it took the manager coming to show them how to ring up a U.S. card in baht... I believe there is more too it than that. Whenever I use my overseas cards in another country, be it Thailand, Singapore, HK, Dubai, the cashier swipes the card then asks me do i want the charge done in local currency or home currency. So I beleive it is the card processing system that prompts the cashier to ask the customer which one they want. My read in Thailand would be that some stores simply see we are farangs and tell there staff to automatically process in home currency rather than give us the option by asking us first. It has happended to me inSizzler to - my overseas card is always charged at the home currency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Clinique, I think what you describe may be more common for credit cards... But for debit cards, and I say this with thousands of debit card transactions under my belt, I've rarely if ever been asked which currency (baht or $) I want the debit card transaction done in... 99% of the time in Thailand it's done in Thai baht without me having to say a word... Maybe 1% of the time or less, the staff person returns with the slip rung up in U.S. $, and I direct them to redo it in baht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgm005 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Call me blind or tunnel vision but where are the Citibank ATM's within the Exchange Tower? I am always over there, when in BKK, because I opened my Kasikorn account within the branch there. Now, I will admit I have not wandered around within the Exchange Tower looking for a Citibank ATM. I am glad I found this thread for it cleared up my use of AEON with my Capital ATM no longer working. I guess I will sign up for online checking (my zip had no branch) and go that route (eventually). Thanks to all for the information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 JGM, you gotta be careful about which tower at that corner you're looking towards... because there are two different places with similar names... one is Exchange Tower and the other is Interchange Tower or Interchange 21 Tower, I think... The one you want is Interchange Tower on the same general corner as the Soi Cowboy area...and they have big blue signage up there because the Interchange Tower is CitiBank Thailand's new corporate HQ. At that locale, they have at least two different banks of ATMs in different locations there... one bank accessible via walk in glass doors on the street level, right adjacent to where their branch and tellers are on the corner...and then another bank inside the building on one of the B level floors, also located to another branch type operation. If you're walking on the SkyBridge from Asoke BTS, you head outward toward Phom Phrong and it's the tower to your left side just after you cross over Asoke Rd. The tower to your right (Exchange Tower) is where the True Fitness and True Cafe are located, and there's no CitiBank presence there. Call me blind or tunnel vision but where are the Citibank ATM's within the Exchange Tower? I am always over there, when in BKK, because I opened my Kasikorn account within the branch there. Now, I will admit I have not wandered around within the Exchange Tower looking for a Citibank ATM. I am glad I found this thread for it cleared up my use of AEON with my Capital ATM no longer working. I guess I will sign up for online checking (my zip had no branch) and go that route (eventually). Thanks to all for the information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Jim, you were right, in that today I noticed a slight exchange rate adjustment when the POS transaction went from "pending" to "final" status with Schwab... It cost me an extra 4 cents, for a final total of $12.28 or a final exchange rate of 30.72, which is just about what I'd normally expect... About midway between the bank TT rate and the IER rate...meaning better than the bank buying TT rate but not quite as good as the IER rate itself. Jim, here's a good additional data point for you on ATM vs POS exchange rates... Add this to the mix below... Schwab VISA (no FCF) POS purchase this evening: 30.82 rate 377.25 baht purchase and $12.24 debit to my account. Both the AEON and CitiBank ATM withdrawals were 1000 baht in the afternoon. Rate for the AEON withdrawal about 4 pm: 30.52 baht Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht Bank of Thailand IER for the day: 30.83 Bangkok Bank Buying TT in the afternoon: 30.65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 About midway between the bank TT rate and the IER rate...meaning better than the bank buying TT rate but not quite as good as the IER rate itself......... ......but better than the MC/Cirrus rate, which consistently comes in *below* the TT rate. Hmmmm. (Anyone else having trouble getting into the MC exchanger rate site?) MC FX Rates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I did, unfortunately, have my wallet stolen with a U.S. VISA debit card inside during a BTS trip a few months back. Within an hour, whomever stole it ran up the $1,000 daily limit in POS purchases at local stores. I reported the card stolen within an hour of its theft, followed up with a Thai police report, and had all my funds restored by my U.S. bank within 2 weeks of the original theft, and within about 1 week of having delivered copies of all the necessary documents and police report to my bank... JFC, you must really love that 4% interest. Presumably, however, they didn't pay 4% on that $1000 *deficit* when your account was robbed -- for two weeks!!. But, yeah, you were lucky you had established only a $1000 limit. But, a card with such a limit sure wouldn't have done me much good this weekend, when Home Pro got nearly $3k of my appliance business. Fortunately, I use a credit card, with a credit limit way over what I'd ever use. But, it's there if needed -- with absolutely no danger of any of it disappearing from my bank account. And no bounced checks, no police report, no waiting 2 weeks to get my money back. Is that 4% interest really worth all the non-utility and security hassle of a debit card vs. a credit card? You've given us more valid insight on using plastic here in Thailand than anyone else I can recall.... But your preference for debit over credit has me scratching my head. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 No Jim, I don't believe AEON has made any change, and people can still use MC logo cards at AEON ATMs... The change was made at Cap One, who switched their ATM only card (non VISA non MC) from the PLUS network to the CIRRUS only network in late January. You're right. I got befuddled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pib Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 About midway between the bank TT rate and the IER rate...meaning better than the bank buying TT rate but not quite as good as the IER rate itself......... ......but better than the MC/Cirrus rate, which consistently comes in *below* the TT rate. Hmmmm. (Anyone else having trouble getting into the MC exchanger rate site?) MC FX Rates I don't have a problem getting into the MC exchanger web site but I have only been able to the get calendar and currency selection blocks to work a few times, which basically makes the webpage unusable. Don't know if it's a web site issue, browser issue, firewall issues, or an ISP issue (I'm on TOT). Never a problem with the equivalent Visa site or other sites where you need to select the date and currency type(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Jim, you're making things overly simplistic... Of course one shouldn't walk around just with a debit card, and no credit cards.... But IMHO, a smart person uses the debit cards in a way that works to their best advantage, and likewise uses the credit cards in a way that they work to their best advantage... So for me, that means the small daily expenses of life go on the debit card, and for buying things I'm going to buy anyway, doing so earned me 4-5% interest for most of last year on a multitude of RCA accounts... Re your question, the banks pay interest based on your average daily balance for each month. But considering those accounts typically had by policy a $25K maximum amount to earn interest on each, the temporary loss of $1k for part of the month was a pretty insignificant $ impact, compared to the advantages each and every month over a year or multiple years. Each account like that with a maximum balance would have earned close to $100 a month in straight interest -- all entirely FDIC insured, and at a much better rate that even the average person could have earned through multi year CDs during the same period... Yet with the advantage of having any/all funds in those RCA accounts be entirely liquid and at your disposal.... no early withdrawal penalties, etc. Plus rebates of ATM fees and a variety of other RCA perks. Then on the flip side, when it comes to large ticket purchases like airline travel or annual health insurance premiums and such, those definitely go on the 2% cash back/no foreign currency fee credit cards, which likewise provides significant $ benefits. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. So stop scratching your head. And as I explained above, I don't have a preference for debit over credit... Both have their own separate use and purpose in my scheme of things. And frankly, if my wallet had been stolen with a U.S. credit card, and the thieves rang up a bunch of charges before the fraud freeze was put into effect, I believe I still would have had to go thru most of the same stuff, Thai police report, filling out the bank fraud statement, etc... The only real difference was the temporary loss of the funds vs. the same thing with a credit card. But as I said, for me on a one-time basis, that was non-significant. And the process probably took a bit longer than it otherwise would have because of the time differences involved. Is that 4% interest really worth all the non-utility and security hassle of a debit card vs. a credit card? You've given us more valid insight on using plastic here in Thailand than anyone else I can recall.... But your preference for debit over credit has me scratching my head. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 But IMHO, a smart person uses the debit cards in a way that works to their best advantage, Ok, in your case, you're able to get 4-5% interest solely because you make the required number of debit card transactions per month. And these are transactions you would otherwise make anyway -- not just to reach your quota. Fair enough. If no such a system existed, do you still see an advantage of a debit card over a credit card? (Again, the 'given' is that you're not credit impaired.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Of course Jim, IF you were to remove the superior RCA interest earnings from the equation, all other things being equal as in no FCF and such, a credit card has the advantage over a debit card... But that's not an IF that applies in the financial marketplace right now. For example, with a 2% cash back and no FCF credit card like Schwab (of which there are very few in the marketplace), a person spending $2000 a month solely on that one card (which is probably a bit optimistic for most people) would earn a $40 monthly rebate. For me, my biggest monthly expense is paying rent, and even if I wanted to, I couldn't pay my rent via a credit card (or a debit card)... So I'd never been able to use that expense toward any monthly benefit... Same with other kinds of things that can't be paid via card, whether credit or debit. In comparison, a person keeping $25K in an RCA and meeting the debit card use requirements (which usually don't have any minimum amount per purchase) would have earned $90 or so interest per month last year, and not have had to spend anywhere close to $2K to do so... I'd usually spend perhaps $200 per month on debit card use, and then recoup $90 of that via the monthly interest. Right now, the average RCA rate has fallen to around 3%, and in many cases the maximum balances have fallen as well. So for 2011, I see the advantage of RCAs over the best available credit cards as narrowing somewhat, but only somewhat. Even now, a 3% RCA with a $25K balance woul earn about $65 per month, and 3% is equal to the very best 7 year CDs available in the general marketplace right now. And of course far better than the average interest savings or checking accounts that are paying around 1% at present. So in sum, if someone has liquid cash they want to keep available and not lock up in longer term things like CDs, I still see RCAs as a very attractive alternative. And a very good way of keeping the couple months worth of emergency cash reserves on hand that most financial advisers say is an important part of financial planning. Ok, in your case, you're able to get 4-5% interest solely because you make the required number of debit card transactions per month. And these are transactions you would otherwise make anyway -- not just to reach your quota. Fair enough. If no such a system existed, do you still see an advantage of a debit card over a credit card? (Again, the 'given' is that you're not credit impaired.)o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 JFC, can't argue with those numbers. And even after taxes (cash-backs aren't taxable), you're still ahead -- financially -- with RCAs. Hmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgm005 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 After you had me turn around and look the other way to the Interchange Building for Citibank I just did an ATM withdrawal there. The location, for me, is very convenient when I am in BKK. Much more so than Paragon when AEON or should I say Capital One Non branded ATM card worked. For this exercise I used a local USA Credit Union Debit card, VISA, with PLUS on the back. I AM NOT a fan of debit cards and use only a credit card for all POS purchases. I Use this debit card as a back up means to get money. The transaction went through smoothly. I pulled 15,000bt ($500 max per day). The receipt, to me was very confusing and it was not until I got back to the room to look up the actual deduction online that I could verify that I did not get hit with the 150bt fee. There was NO indication of this for the ATM did not ask the typical query as to whether you want to go ahead with the transaction. I just could not figure out the amounts. 15,000bt was $489.22. The 1% fee was separate (another reason I do not use this card). I am going to use my Capital One ATM later to see if it works. It may not be convenient for everyone, but the other no 150 baht fee ATMs in Bangkok that I'm aware of are the CitiBank ones located in the Exchange Tower building at the corner of Sukhumvit and Asoke Rd., at the same corner as the BTS Asoke and MRT Sukhumvit stations... I would assume they accept Cirrus network cards because CitiBank is a big international bank company, but I've never really had a reason to check on that before... I guess now I have a reason to check on that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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