Needless Deaths, Murky Motives Behind Thailand-Cambodia Flare-Up

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Needless deaths, murky motives behind flare-up

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

Both Thai and Cambodian leaders may say it was the other party that started the military intrusion into their territory, which led to death and injuries over the past few days. But the casualties were truly needless. This is not a time for Thais to unquestioningly unite behind their leaders but a time for calm, inquiry, scepticism and firm denunciation of war, no matter which side actually started it.

The people who died or are suffering are not the political leaders or generals in Bangkok and Phnom Penh, or the ultra-nationalistic, war-mongering, yellow-shirted People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) and its Cambodian counterpart, but poor villagers and low-ranking soldiers from both nations.

It is at times like this that we should best observe how blind and petty nationalism can be.

The Thai media seem overly eager to report on the casualties on the Thai side and take the words of Thai leaders and generals as more trustworthy. Perhaps it's likewise for Cambodians.

Some nationalistic Thais are calling for the tearing down of Wat Kaew Sikha Khiri Sawara, a Buddhist temple built by Cambodians in the disputed territory, and feel there's nothing wrong with such a demand even though they're Buddhists. Surely, if it were the other way round, many Thai Buddhists would cry foul and denounce Cambodians for being "fake Buddhists".

A pamphlet produced by the Thai Patriots Network, which is led by yellow-shirt Veera Somkwamkid, reminds readers how many times "Siamese and Thai territories" were forcibly ceded to British and French imperial powers. But there's nothing about how Siamese and Thai invasions of its neighbours have led to the gaining of land that might otherwise belong to some of our neighbours today. For example, any educated Thai knows that some northeastern provinces along the border with Cambodia are populated by Thais of Khmer ethnicity and many of these people still speak Khmer.

Back to our respective political and military leaders, surely either the Cambodian or Thai leaders are lying, as both claimed the other side opened fire first. But do you simply believe your leader, whether Hun Sen or Abhisit Vejjajiva, simply because you share the same nationality as him? This is tempting, especially when most people have almost no way of independently proving who launched fired the first salvo.

Such an easy and obedient attitude is too risky.

We first must ask who stands to gain the most from initiating such a conflict. We must also ask why can't the issue be resolved peacefully.

Will the Thai or Cambodian military get a bigger budget if they use up some of their artillery caches? But at what price for taxpayers, and for the low-ranking soldiers and poor villagers on both sides of the border, who have died a needless death, and to people who have been displaced and evacuated?

Was this whole affair initiated by some Thai generals in order to make the situation spiral out of control and thus perhaps give an excuse for a Thai military takeover of the civilian government again?

Things are too fishy, considering Veera and company's recent sojourn to the sensitive Thai-Cambodian border and their subsequent arrest, and the call for military action by the yellow-shirt PAD.

This writer doesn't know what the Cambodian premier may be up to. But at times like this, we need to question and scrutinise our leaders doubly hard lest more people end up dying needless deaths for a conflict that might be more about local politics.

When people see the Great Pyramid of Giza, the Taj Mahal or Angkor Wat, they should not just marvel at their greatness but also be reminded of the exploitation of labourers and craftsmen who worked on the construction.

Similarly, the other side of nationalism is equally ugly.

-- The Nation 2011-02-09

[dumball]

i have mentioned on a couple of forums that I felt the whole chaotic debacle along the border had next to nothing to do with a piece of scrub land worth a mere 20 satang , but much more to do with political posturing , villagers have lived quite happily for years in those contested areas , just cede them the rights to the land to share and prosper from in unity .

The yellow shirts should all be brought to task for incitment of anarchy , is not that which they are trying to achieve in thier own evil coniving way ? They stirred the pot for the border dispute , put spies in that are now in jail and have even admitted in a blatant manner that they have spied again on Cambodian territory ,it is in writing on TV just what they so gloatingly thought they had achieved in this area . They even bragged about an unofficial task force of civilians willing to attack Cambodian forces , anihalating them in a mere 3 minutes , is this not worthy of immediate jail time to prevent even more blood shed and stupid incitement of the wrong kind ? Both the army generals and Abysit need to show why they have been alloted the power to protect the Kingdom from just such an uprising, now is the time to save face and do the job that is thiers .

[canuckamuck]

Good article, I hope there are things like this circulating in Thai.

If a war comes out of this, or even a protracted battle, it will have been for nothing and the poor will once again pay the price for political hubris.

They should just level the place and draw a line down the middle. Just one temple in a million, is it worth lives?

[WhySoSerious]

Good article. A voice of reason.

[nikster]

Good article, I hope there are things like this circulating in Thai.

If a war comes out of this, or even a protracted battle, it will have been for nothing and the poor will once again pay the price for political hubris.

They should just level the place and draw a line down the middle. Just one temple in a million, is it worth lives?

People have already died for nothing.

I feel like this is nothing but a Phantom Menace. It's either used to distract from some other issues, or for political gain by the yellows - I am not sure which. It's hard to gauge given the media control exerted by the government.

One thing that seems pretty clear right now though is that it's always Thais that are behind this. Cambodians bear their share only in that they're stupid in their responses - but I think it always starts with Thailand, like those PAD freaks who decided to walk over the border. Such an act can only be seen as a provocation and it was clearly intended as such. I don't know why Cambodia then had to go and arrest them, instead of just picking them up and moving them back to Thailand.

I suppose that a little war with Thailand is as useful to Cambo politicians as it is to Thai ones.

Edited February 9, 2011 by nikster

[whybother]

Good article, I hope there are things like this circulating in Thai.

If a war comes out of this, or even a protracted battle, it will have been for nothing and the poor will once again pay the price for political hubris.

They should just level the place and draw a line down the middle. Just one temple in a million, is it worth lives?

People have already died for nothing.

I feel like this is nothing but a Phantom Menace. It's either used to distract from some other issues, or for political gain by the yellows - I am not sure which. It's hard to gauge given the media control exerted by the government.

One thing that seems pretty clear right now though is that it's always Thais that are behind this. Cambodians bear their share only in that they're stupid in their responses - but I think it always starts with Thailand, like those PAD freaks who decided to walk over the border. Such an act can only be seen as a provocation and it was clearly intended as such. I don't know why Cambodia then had to go and arrest them, instead of just picking them up and moving them back to Thailand.

I suppose that a little war with Thailand is as useful to Cambo politicians as it is to Thai ones.

"but I think it always starts with Thailand"

So Cambodia building a road through disputed territory is Thailand's fault too?

[DP25]

The murky motives aren't that murky at all, Dictator for Life Hun Sen needed his newly appointed as general 33 year old son to gain support in the military and the populace at large, a quick war in which they bloody Thailand's nose by shelling Thai towns is the easiest way. It's very similar to what the North Koreans did last Novemember with Kim Jong Un (son of Dear Leader) after he was made a 4 star general, they shelled a South Korean town with artillery in order to gain power and prestige for the son

[inmysights]

I remember when the PAD were carrying out there marathon protest in Bangkok, and my PAD supporting husband (not 'elite class' by any standard) glued to the tv for the four or so months of it. When all of a sudden, near the end of it, this temple issue was brought up out of the blue!

The reason for the protest as we all know, was not to allow Taksin back in. Having said that the whole coup thing and letting him and his family out 'to watch the Olympics' was the typically Thai way of attempting to sweep the problem under the carpet, which we now know horribly backfired.

The PAD leaders became more and more desperate to rally people to their cause using nationalism, stupid things like 'we Thai nah? gin aharn Thai nah?' etc, when this little gem re the temple fell into their laps and sent them all into a frenzy.

This has been escalated by certain factions of the, now, insane PAD. So we have the insanity that is Taksin versus the 'lost the plot PAD faction, neither of which give a flying one about the Thai PEOPLE. They should be ashamed, the lot of them.

[Robby nz]

Dont know why the Mods havent posted this as seperate thread, there is a lot of info here from the people on the ground.

Posted Today, 06:48

As the guns roar, feelings harden among border evacuees

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

Kantharalak, Si Sa Ket

Villagers evacuated from the Thai-Cambodia border in Si Sa Ket province hope life will return to normal quickly - but they're uncertain when they can return home and their kids can no longer go to school in an area which has been closed indefinitely.

Toys have been donated and booths set up to allow the children to draw and play. Some draw pictures of war.

As for local adults, the conflict has deepened the already strong distrust of Cambodia.

Those interviewed said they wished the nationalist yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) would not try to visit the province and exacerbate the situation; enough damage has been done to the livelihoods of people along the border.

"Please don't come. It's going to get even worse," said Huan Kanchanachart, 45, from Baan Klong Sai village who now lives under a huge blue tent in front of the district office. Huan and her family and two young kids, fled the village last Friday as both sides exchanged gunfire.

The firing and heavy artillery has also made Thai villagers more negative about Cambodia.

Huan said she believed the Cambodian army opened fire first, but has no way to support it.

"I don't really know. I have no evidence. But if the other side doesn't stop retaliating then we should not either, because we don't want to lose more land," Huan told The Nation.

Negative feelings toward Cambodia are evident not only among those evacuated, but just as strongly among locals who have come to help and donate supplies.

"Cambodia tried to build roads and populate the [disputed] areas," claimed Voranuch Pimthong, staff member at the government's Savings Bank in Si Sa Ket who is helping the evacuees.

"It's like they don't keep their word," she said, referring to the short-lived ceasefire agreement during the weekend between the two sides. "We don't trust Cambodians. It's like Cambodians like to lie. They lie and cheat when trading with us."

In that same makeshift camp, stronger Thai-Cambodian ties can be detected, however.

Rice farmer Luan Thai-Orm, 45, from Bhumi Salor village along the border, was born a Cambodian but crossed the border more than 20 years ago to marry a Thai wife and take up Thai citizenship. He fled with his wife and three children and doesn't know when they can return home. The village school has been destroyed by a bomb.

Asked which side started the act of aggression, he said he doesn't know. "Thais and Cambodians are like brothers who do not want to bow to one another," he said. His wife, Thae Thai-Orm, said she had lost contact with relatives on the Cambodian side of the border. "I don't feel happy. It's hard for us to make a living and so the PAD should not think about coming here," she said.

Since last Friday, some 4,000 people have begun living under tents and building structures around Kantharalak district office. They said they had access to adequate food and water supplies but there were no mosquito nets for most of them. Pillows were also in need, the villagers said.

Bhum Jai Thai MP Udomlak Pengpornpat and her team have been a visible presence, lending some large tents with her name printed on them. A male staff member of the MP tried to cheer people up by urging them to sing nationalistic songs - and some rather immodest ones too.

A famous local monk arrived in the afternoon in his new Bt50 million Rolls Royce to provide amulets and words of assurance to the mostly poor villagers.

Elsewhere, a 70-year-old grandmother said her house was looted and among items stolen was her silver wedding bowl. Some villagers said they were considering selling their rice at low prices as they're afraid of thieves. Others are thinking of selling their cows and water buffaloes. Rubber from trees grown in the area has been found tapped by thieves as more and more men return to their villages to look after their houses and belongings.

-- The Nation 2011-02-09

Like the bit about the monk with his 50mill Rolls.

Then there is the BJT MP who had her name printed on the tents she gave out.

[millwall_fan]

A well reasoned article. This, as has been stated has nothing to do with a 100 metre strip of borderland, or even to do with the wonderful temple complex of Phra Wihan, but it has everything to do with the fact that there has to be an election this year and with the people struggling to buy cooking oil and coconut milk, you deflect the news from that onto a convenient little border dispute you created for the purpose. And in Hun Sen they have just the kind of cretinous dictator who'll react to them.

This just goes to show that the coalition and the 'ruling elite' which includes the military couldn't care less about the ordinary Thai people.

[canuckamuck]

A famous local monk arrived in the afternoon in his new Bt50 million Rolls Royce to provide amulets and words of assurance to the mostly poor villagers.

Then there is the BJT MP who had her name printed on the tents she gave out.

Now there is an appropriate reason for people to be up in arms.

[Thai at Heart]

A famous local monk arrived in the afternoon in his new Bt50 million Rolls Royce to provide amulets and words of assurance to the mostly poor villagers.

Then there is the BJT MP who had her name printed on the tents she gave out.

Now there is an appropriate reason for people to be up in arms.

I wonder if anyone will bother to get on their moral high horse about a monk in a 50mn baht Rolls.

As I have said time and time again, if this was a soap opera, the world's most inventive script writers couldn't think it up.

[webfact]

Rolls Royce arrives in the refugee camp with a famous monk - http://yfrog.com/h33rrcjj /via@RichardBarrow /via@vaitor

[whybother]

Cambodia did not want a war , they had nothing to gain from such an action , the troops were bolstered because of the provovative action by the yellow shirts who were calling on Abysit to go to war , push those Cambodians out of there was the rallying call .

You think building a road in disputed territory is provocation to war ? You need your head examined , the road would be benificial to all concerned no matter who won the 'War' , one of the reasons for the stupid onslaught was a piece of rag hanging over a Budhist pagoda , still no reason to start a war . Any of you posters ever live through a war ? I did and I can tell you it was no cause for a celebration , shortages of almost everything , rationing with most basics only obtainable with coupons , spending multiple hours in air-raid shelters , reporting friends who had died at roll call , Yeah , yeah , all the excitement and glorification of war .

war is for governments to start and the populace to suffer , more is lost to humans than any gains made for government reasons , want a war , go start one in your village where nationalistic types reside , not in some body elses back yard

1) It's not a war, it's a little border dispute that has been going on for decades.

2) Given Hun Sen's son's involvement, they do have something to gain from such an action.

3) Why would you bolster troops because of a protest by a couple of thousand people hundreds of kilometres away?

4) If your neighbor started building a road through your property, would you just let it happen?

5) The road isn't beneficial to Thailand, since it would allow people to get to the temple with out going into Thailand.

6) No one here is calling for war. Most posters are bagging the PAD for their calls for war.

[hammered]

A well reasoned article. This, as has been stated has nothing to do with a 100 metre strip of borderland, or even to do with the wonderful temple complex of Phra Wihan, but it has everything to do with the fact that there has to be an election this year and with the people struggling to buy cooking oil and coconut milk, you deflect the news from that onto a convenient little border dispute you created for the purpose. And in Hun Sen they have just the kind of cretinous dictator who'll react to them.

This just goes to show that the coalition and the 'ruling elite' which includes the military couldn't care less about the ordinary Thai people.

Add in Hun Sen needs to deflect attention from Vietnamese encroachment and away to the Thai enemy. Quite who started this round remains very debatable. But nationalism serves many on both sides of the border.

The original article that says dont know what Hun Sen is up to is a little naive has been trying to cover up Vietnamese land encroachment for well over a year going to the point of forcing opposition MPs including a leader into exile, buying opposition MPs etc. It is as easy to find reason both sides of the border for an initiation of this current round and to jump to any conclusion would be an error. However, of course both in the Thai media and on here we see obsession with internal Thai politics without consideration of internal Cambodian politics.

[metisdead]

A flaming post has been removed. It is quite possible to post your opinion and disagree with others without name calling.

[creck]

This is a time for Thais to unquestioningly unite behind their leaders in a calm inquiry, and firm denunciation of war. These are not alternatives.

[Payboy]

Rolls Royce arrives in the refugee camp with a famous monk - http://yfrog.com/h33rrcjj /via@RichardBarrow /via@vaitor

Suck on that, Cambodia.

[OzMick]

"The Royal Thai Army Spokesperson, recounting what had transpired in the border areas, stated that on 4 February 2011, Cambodian troops opened fire on two Thai military posts at Phu Ma Khua and Pha Mor I Dang, and a Thai village in Si Sa Ket Province of Thailand along the Thai-Cambodian border. Thai troops responded with gun fire in self-defence. Then, on 5 February 2011, gunfights broke out briefly again as Cambodia resumed their hostility by firing at Thai troops. Later that morning, once the clashes had subsided, military commanders from both sides met and agreed to a ceasefire and not to reinforce their troops along the border. Thailand’s good intention was clearly evident as the Commanding General of the 2nd Army Region of the Thai side authorized that same afternoon the opening of three border passes in the area. However, Cambodia broke the ceasefire agreement when fresh clashes erupted on the evening of 6 February as, once again, Cambodian troops fired on Thai troops."

Well that's that issue settled then.

[LomSak27]

The original article that says dont know what Hun Sen is up to is a little naive has been trying to cover up Vietnamese land encroachment for well over a year going to the point of forcing opposition MPs including a leader into exile, buying opposition MPs etc. It is as easy to find reason both sides of the border for an initiation of this current round and to jump to any conclusion would be an error. However, of course both in the Thai media and on here we see obsession with internal Thai politics without consideration of internal Cambodian politics.

Outstanding REACH Hammered. A most impressive deflection even by lofty standards of Thai Visa. :jap:

[Valentine]

Rolls Royce arrives in the refugee camp with a famous monk - http://yfrog.com/h33rrcjj /via@RichardBarrow /via@vaitor

How can you tell from the photo that it belongs to a famous monk. I can interpret the photo as some one taking their car to the monks for a blessing as do much of the populace in this country.

[webfact]

PRESS RELEASE

Press Conference on the Current Situation along the Thai-Cambodian Border

February 9, 2011, 12:48 am

-- MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Follow this link:

[jayboy]

This is a time for Thais to unquestioningly unite behind their leaders in a calm inquiry, and firm denunciation of war. These are not alternatives.

But from all the evidence a calm enquiry would result in the appalling record of the Thai leadership on this issue being exposed, notably disgraceful behaviour by the PAD/military axis and Abhisit pandering to it.

Still always a silver lining...the PAD apologists, reactionaries, military wannabes from the Eastern Seaboard have been apparently silenced for the time being.

[Littlebirdy]

I would love to put them all over my knee (yellow's, red's and 'leaders') and smack all of their bottoms!

[RKASA]

I would love to put them all over my knee (yellow's, red's and 'leaders') and smack all of their bottoms!

Sorry this is a no fetish zone. mods will please move this to the other section.

[Steely Dan]

I remember when the PAD were carrying out there marathon protest in Bangkok, and my PAD supporting husband (not 'elite class' by any standard) glued to the tv for the four or so months of it. When all of a sudden, near the end of it, this temple issue was brought up out of the blue!

The reason for the protest as we all know, was not to allow Taksin back in. Having said that the whole coup thing and letting him and his family out 'to watch the Olympics' was the typically Thai way of attempting to sweep the problem under the carpet, which we now know horribly backfired.

The PAD leaders became more and more desperate to rally people to their cause using nationalism, stupid things like 'we Thai nah? gin aharn Thai nah?' etc, when this little gem re the temple fell into their laps and sent them all into a frenzy.

This has been escalated by certain factions of the, now, insane PAD. So we have the insanity that is Taksin versus the 'lost the plot PAD faction, neither of which give a flying one about the Thai PEOPLE. They should be ashamed, the lot of them.

Yes what is it with PAD? I actually supported their aim of getting rid of Thaksin, though I remember saying to my PAD supporting wife that I disapproved of their taking over the airport as it invited copycat actions by the reds. I also applauded the PAD for keeping a low profile when the reds took over central Bangkok, but try as I might I can't find a shred of sympathy for them now. I can't claim to understand Thai enough to understand what's being said on ASTV, but the rabble rousing speeches and correographed applause give me the same uneasy feeling as the red shirt leaders hate speeches did. And to top it all Sondhi airs the oppinion that Thailand should occupy Angkor Wat as a bargaining chip, which was no doubt calculated to elicit a violent Cambodian response.

It matters not a jot who fired the first shot, with PAD constantly provoking and agitating they were acting in a manner calcilated to cause conflict, I see the reds and yellow shirts now as opposite sides of the same coin, as Sondhi is to Thaksin. Thailand would be better off without both of them.

[jayjay0]

Good article, I hope there are things like this circulating in Thai.

If a war comes out of this, or even a protracted battle, it will have been for nothing and the poor will once again pay the price for political hubris.

They should just level the place and draw a line down the middle. Just one temple in a million, is it worth lives?

People have already died for nothing.

I feel like this is nothing but a Phantom Menace. It's either used to distract from some other issues, or for political gain by the yellows - I am not sure which. It's hard to gauge given the media control exerted by the government.

One thing that seems pretty clear right now though is that it's always Thais that are behind this. Cambodians bear their share only in that they're stupid in their responses - but I think it always starts with Thailand, like those PAD freaks who decided to walk over the border. Such an act can only be seen as a provocation and it was clearly intended as such. I don't know why Cambodia then had to go and arrest them, instead of just picking them up and moving them back to Thailand.

I suppose that a little war with Thailand is as useful to Cambo politicians as it is to Thai ones.

could be people are just seeing Ghosts. The reason hostilities started could have been non militarily.

Consider the long and loud demands of the Yellow Shirts to start a war. Give one of them a gun and viola they have what they want. And when things calm down out crawls the Yellow Shirt with his gun.

Edited February 9, 2011 by jayjay0

[fatfather]

Good article, I hope there are things like this circulating in Thai.

If a war comes out of this, or even a protracted battle, it will have been for nothing and the poor will once again pay the price for political hubris.

They should just level the place and draw a line down the middle. Just one temple in a million, is it worth lives?

People have already died for nothing.

I feel like this is nothing but a Phantom Menace. It's either used to distract from some other issues, or for political gain by the yellows - I am not sure which. It's hard to gauge given the media control exerted by the government.

One thing that seems pretty clear right now though is that it's always Thais that are behind this. Cambodians bear their share only in that they're stupid in their responses - but I think it always starts with Thailand, like those PAD freaks who decided to walk over the border. Such an act can only be seen as a provocation and it was clearly intended as such. I don't know why Cambodia then had to go and arrest them, instead of just picking them up and moving them back to Thailand.

I suppose that a little war with Thailand is as useful to Cambo politicians as it is to Thai ones.

What the _ell is "a little war"????? Are some hundred dead acceptable, or thousands......???

[kmj]

There's nothing like stirring up a war in election year, great vote grabber, ask Ms Thatcher....

[geriatrickid]

This is a time for Thais to unquestioningly unite behind their leaders in a calm inquiry, and firm denunciation of war. These are not alternatives.

Which leaders are denouncing war?