Mistakes Farangs Make

[F1fanatic]

I too am single. I waited until I turned 50 mid last year so I could move here on a retirement visa even though I had been here a lot over the last 3 + years. I moved here because I like living in Thailand, it was not about a women. I have much to learn and it is challenging and fun. Marriage is not on my radar. I do not go to any bars(by my choice and not judging people who do). Everyone knows whats there and what the outcome will be. I am enjoying my time here thus far. My intention is to acclimate and live a life here. I have been dating a 37 year old nursing manager in BKK and we get along fantastic. She is a very nice traditional Thai women. Mature, Honest, Hard working. I met her by accident as I bumped into her at the night market and knocked her food out of her hand. I apologized and bought her new food as most spilled. We laughed and that was how it started. She has very nice friends and frequently eat together and they love teaching me Thai as I teach them English. It is a no drama, No buying a family, No Thai husband while I date her. No bar girl BS. Just a nice person.

Being honest I did not rule out meeting a women, just was not going to be my driving motivator. Besides why would I not want to date? As far as the women I am dating( I am only stating this to stop all the nay sayers), Her Mom passed away 6 years ago in Feb. I went to the temple with her and sister to offer prayer. Her Dad is quite ill and may not last through the year. She has not asked me for anything and in fact she pays for a lot and insists. She told me she does this so it is clear that it is not about the stigma of a western man and his money. We do dutch a lot. I have my own condo, she has hers. She has 1 sister who is married with a wonderful daughter and they live in Autthaya and both parents work hard and own a home. I have met them and they are just very nice people. Thats it for extended family. I do not have a car and she does and she has offered it to me anywhere anytime. I just take her to work(Thats if I need it). Used it a couple of times.

So thats it. again. A simple encounter. A nice Thai women. No hidden agenda. Her work schedule is a lot as Nurses do, so she does her thing, I do mine.

That is a very nice story, JPPR2. I hope everything turns out well for you. It is the strange, chance encounters that always amaze me and somehow seem predestined... even though I'm not a religious person.

I often wonder about those strange happenings. I occasionally get down a bit with some of my lady friends, and then, something nice happens. Just as one walks out the door or breaks a date, another gives me a phone call and wants to get in touch. I just let it happen and have no explanation as to why.

I do.... ALL of those women you have 'met' are hoping for a relationship with a wealthy farang.

Few men here have not had phone calls from ALL the women to whom they have given their phone number...

Edited February 21, 2011 by F1fanatic

[KRS1]

The biggest mistake farangs make is thinking a girl likes you if she just talks and smiles back.

if no one back home thought of you as 'hansum man' chances are you probably aren't...wakeup

It is annoying to see some shriveled, scruffy, greasy old twonk trying to " sweet talk " the lady members of staff in somewhere like the Pullman Khon Kaen. They're paid to be polite and smile.

BTW KRS1. You didn't choose your user name in honour of the rapper by any chance did you?

old nick from highschool, you haven't been drinking brass monkey with paul revere on a slow ride have ya ?

[Robby nz]

Mistake:

The mistake most men anywhere make is to believe in the whole love marriage thing. Something that is indoctrinated into them from an early age by mothers and perpetuated by the words of almost every song they hear.

When you get older you will find the girl of your dreams marry, have beautiful children and live happily ever after, and so most boys grow into men thinking of, looking for, the one girl in the world who will be their soul mate for the rest of their lives.

The woman who will make all their dreams come true, or their mother’s dreams, share everything in life with them, live and grow old in happiness and contentment. Therein lies the trap.

Then when they think they have found this perfect woman and she provides great sex the next step is marriage, a religious institution specially adapted in an attempt to bind them to a church of some sort. This is often likened to a mental hospital which is also an institution.

Then after the marriage and fantastic honeymoon another link in the chain is applied in the shape house (home) and its associated mortgage. For this they are taken before a banker and without realizing the true implications sign on the dotted line for a sentence of debt which, with good behavior, they will be released from in 25 years.

At this point the starry eyed bit has started to wear off they find she doesn’t like football, fishing, golf or any of the real things in life. Then there is the 9 to 5 job that will be needed to complete that 25 year sentence. The last link in the shackles is then applied “I’m pregnant”. “How the hell did that happen aren’t you supposed to be on the pill”. At that point she has to give up her job which “will help us pay off the mortgage quicker dear”, and he finds he now has to manage all the debt himself as well as pay for all the things a child must have.

This isn’t always the case, there are enough cases of true love everlasting to keep the myth alive and its not every angel from heaven who turns into a witch from hell, there are men who really want children and can’t live without that beautiful woman by their side.

I suspect most of the men who end up here in Thailand have been through the cycle, or wringer if you like, and have come out the other end poorer if not a lot wiser. They arrive here with what she has left then of their bank balance and find the place is full of angles, in most cases much better to look at and available than any where they came from, a real paradise complete with seventy odd virgins, well not virgins but near enough for someone his age.

And so it starts again, how could he ever have forgotten the caning he took first time, but the indoctrination is still within his head and the stars come back. Then of course he finds the angels from here can ride broomsticks just as well as the ones where he came from and not only them but sometimes their whole families.

So we read about it on Thai Visa, Stickman and other sites, “What she did to me”, what you did to yourself more like, but there are still the success stories out there to keep us in hope.

[Roadman]

The biggest mistake they make? Its not so much a mistake but the biggest lose is the Isaan challenge first through one's own eyes with brain (the top one) in charge but time aside also for pleasure.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Roadman

[MSingh]

The biggest mistake that farangs make is assuming or pretending any of this is real.

I mean, TG meets farang and decides she love him after a matter of days (even minutes) <deleted>

The kindest thing that can be said about most farang/thai relationships is that they are RENTALS. Understand that, and up to you if you want to play along, but remember once the money dries up you will be bounced out the door as quick as a honeymooners undies .

Amen..

[GreenSnapper]

It is annoying to see some shriveled, scruffy, greasy old twonk trying to " sweet talk " the lady members of staff in somewhere like the Pullman Khon Kaen. They're paid to be polite and smile.

They pull - and you don't. That's why you are annoyed.

Edited February 21, 2011 by GreenSnapper

[mca]

It is annoying to see some shriveled, scruffy, greasy old twonk trying to " sweet talk " the lady members of staff in somewhere like the Pullman Khon Kaen. They're paid to be polite and smile.

They pull - and you don't. That's why you are annoyed.

Hit a bit close to home there did I?

[IanForbes]

You been reading my diary again, Robby nz? I thought I put it away after last time.

[nocturn]

Mistakes Farangs Make: Referring to themselves as Farang !

they also post the same tripe ad nauseum.

doesn't anyone else grow weary of these pithy observations?

this site begins to resemble nanaplaza.com more each day.

[JPPR2]

You been reading my diary again, Robby nz? I thought I put it away after last time.

It is a quick synopsis of a path(at least what is written on TV) it appears a great number of men have taken here, and why is that? I have read so many stories close to this deal. I mean I get it, the women are beautiful here but why does this lead to such a predictable outcome and why does there appear to be so much deceit? The general consensus seems to be a desperate man and a lot of ignorance. I mean I see a lot of older men(50+) with girls in their late teens/early 20's. Appears to be a recipe for pain and suffering. As some have said over and over on TV these men are not a prize catch in their home country and so they come here and meet a gal they could never ever meet at home. I assume she makes him see "Stars" in bed, quickly tells him she loves him and he says "Lets Marry". Then you even hear that this man 30+ her age gets her pregnant. Lord did he not learn anything?

I was passed a book last year called Thailand Fever. I found the book somewhat geared at men who met a bar girl and now wants to find a way to make it work. Even had what appeared to be a Issan or bar girl on the cover. Although basic I felt it missed a lot of areas I find are more important then having sex which seemed like where the book was geared. What about children? What about coping with a huge age difference? What about the Thai perception? Beyond popular belief I have heard Thai people frown on huge age difference relationships as does the country we came from. It is far more obvious with a Caucasian man as his age shows. I even catch myself staring wondering how it can work as they walk by and they cannot even communicate. I am not saying they won't but I still scratch my head.

I think my biggest question is why men throw out their basic judgment here? I mean(me included) are older and should be far wiser. I know I would never drop in here and get googly eyed, marry, all the while never understanding the ramifications? And I would never just hang in bars, drink myself to believing I have the answers. One thing I personally have concerns about is the fact that I am retired and how will that work with a woman that works in a long term relationship? I would not want her to quit and I do not want her to think she can. At some point it has to be an issue to be discussed. At this time I have no intentions on working. I did my investing to not have too, however I might dabble to consume some of my time.

Anyway just some of my thoughts.

[Tonto21]

The biggest mistake I made in Thailand was getting cornered in a bar by a know nothing, old, fat, pink, sweaty gob-shit of a Brit gobbing off about women, sprouting the same <deleted> you are. So engrossed was he in telling his secrets of getting a “really good one” (an 8+ I presume) he couldn’t see behind his back some France guy was all over his girlfriend, (8+) like stink on a turd. Who knows, it might have been you I was talking to in that bar. Go get em tiger!

[letitbe]

There are a few very bitter comments, obviously a lot of posters have been stung. We learn by our mistakes I suppose, I've been married to a Thai for 8 years now, everythings great.

I think the biggest mistake is taking advice from disgruntled ex pats that appear to know every thing.

Biggestmistake is thinking east and west are the same and that here age differencedoes not matter. Probably 90% of east/west relationships end badly whatever theage difference. As in everything in life you have to work on it and do yourbest to understand your partner and her values and for her to understand youand your values. To do that you do need to live with someone at least 2 + yearsand agree all issues here such as family support sin sod (if its asked for)culture and what both want out of marriage. My wife always says love is notenough and jokingly says but a new top brand handbag, prada shoes and resthelps for a while. We sorted out the issues of family well before we gotmarried and we both have had to meet half way regarding cultural differences.We also lived together for 4 years before getting married and starting afamily. The age difference is very large but that seems less and less as weboth get older. Weve now been together 15 years with 2 lovely kids and ofcourse like any marriage honeymoon sparks went a few years ago but we still ahave fireworks sometimes. Ive been lucky but its not really luck its preparingnot confusing lust with love and being careful your not being stupid. That alltakes a lot of time patience and understanding on both sides. My wife would bestupid if she did not care for future and how she will cope with our childrenwhen im gone and so needs like all wimen some financial security but that doesnot mean me being a ATM for her or any of her family. I would be stupid to fallfor a girl who like a lot cares more for today and money than long termaspirations.

MyAdvice is

Ifyou find someone you love make sure its not lust but is true love

Livewith that person for at least 2 years before making any real commitment butduring that time trust her

Discussfully and openly what you both want and agree totally any support if neededfor security and other things

Makesure her parents and family fully understand and accept your views but also sayin dire need you are happy to help

Giveher a large sum of money invested in her name in cash, gold or securities making it clear you will need to draw on itif an urgent need arises. If your going to live with her for the rest of yourlife you have to be able to trust her so sum has to be at least 2 million baht

Waitone year and say you now need half of it back to pay back a debt or some otherreason.

Mostimportant If after agreeing and explaining everything you don’t get half backrun like mad get drunk and move on . Its far cheaper in long run.

Orif you just want a rental then make a different plan

[Forethat]

Giveher a large sum of money invested in her name in cash, gold or securities making it clear you will need to draw on itif an urgent need arises. If your going to live with her for the rest of yourlife you have to be able to trust her so sum has to be at least 2 million baht

...

...

Orif you just want a rental then make a different plan

So if the rental doesn't include dishing out money (the way you suggest) how would one go about renting one?

[CrossBones]

Living in Pattaya with their girlfriend/wife

If you have a wife/gf why would you want to live in pattaya with her?

[NancyL]

I'm a retired western woman, living here for over 2 years with my husband of nearly 35 years. I thought the OP's question was about whether he should retire here. Somehow it became a thread on the evils of Thai women. When I first started reading this thread, I was ready to offer advice about not buying land/home vs. renting, not falling in love, and finding hobbies besides hanging out in bars drinking with other westerners.

But no, this thread has become something much more. Believe it or not, I actually know western guys who have retired here and don't have sexual relations with Thai women. (Ok, I can only vouch for sure for one because we keep a tight budget, but he has friends whose wives make the same claim). This is a delightful and economical place to live. Hubby and I came here three years ago and lived for a month as if we were retired, putting together a detailed excel spreadsheet for a projected budget. We found many new friends in Chiang Mai who were willing to critique our proposed budget and point out shortfalls. Then we reviewed our plans with our financial advisor in the U.S.

Turns out, he had two other couples as clients who had retired to Thailand. His big piece of advice -- be sure you have your life in your home country in order before you move to Thailand, because a couple of "emergency" trips back to the home country will evaporate any savings from living in Thailand. He said one of his client couples had to return to the U.S. when a parent needed to enter a nursing home and then a few months later, they "had" to return when an adult child was arrested on drug-related charges.

Oh, and since many posters haven't found the secret to a 35-year marriage, let me share a couple of secrets -- communication and a sense of humor/whimsy (not humor/irony). Earlier in this thread, Ian Forbes wisely pointed out that good sex can only take so you so far. What do you do for the rest of the day? Not much if you can't communicate with your partner. You really should be renting by the hour, rather than signing up for the life-time plan.

[mca]

Oh, and since many posters haven't found the secret to a 35-year marriage, let me share a couple of secrets -- communication and a sense of humor/whimsy (not humor/irony). Earlier in this thread, Ian Forbes wisely pointed out that good sex can only take so you so far. What do you do for the rest of the day? Not much if you can't communicate with your partner. You really should be renting by the hour, rather than signing up for the life-time plan.

I completely agree.

[Berkshire]

MIstakes Farangs make,.....

They actually think that their so called western values that are drummed into them from the cradle to the grave have any relevance in Thailand.

The most amazing thing is that they believe these so called values are better, better for who, who knows.

And the major major mistake made is this, Farangs move to Thailand and expect everything to be like it was at home, except the things beneficial to themselves that are unattainable at home, other than that, they complain how terrible it is here cos itr's not like home.

Pretty accurate assessment there, MM.

[JPPR2]

I'm a retired western woman, living here for over 2 years with my husband of nearly 35 years. I thought the OP's question was about whether he should retire here. Somehow it became a thread on the evils of Thai women. When I first started reading this thread, I was ready to offer advice about not buying land/home vs. renting, not falling in love, and finding hobbies besides hanging out in bars drinking with other westerners.

But no, this thread has become something much more. Believe it or not, I actually know western guys who have retired here and don't have sexual relations with Thai women. (Ok, I can only vouch for sure for one because we keep a tight budget, but he has friends whose wives make the same claim). This is a delightful and economical place to live. Hubby and I came here three years ago and lived for a month as if we were retired, putting together a detailed excel spreadsheet for a projected budget. We found many new friends in Chiang Mai who were willing to critique our proposed budget and point out shortfalls. Then we reviewed our plans with our financial advisor in the U.S.

Turns out, he had two other couples as clients who had retired to Thailand. His big piece of advice -- be sure you have your life in your home country in order before you move to Thailand, because a couple of "emergency" trips back to the home country will evaporate any savings from living in Thailand. He said one of his client couples had to return to the U.S. when a parent needed to enter a nursing home and then a few months later, they "had" to return when an adult child was arrested on drug-related charges.

Oh, and since many posters haven't found the secret to a 35-year marriage, let me share a couple of secrets -- communication and a sense of humor/whimsy (not humor/irony). Earlier in this thread, Ian Forbes wisely pointed out that good sex can only take so you so far. What do you do for the rest of the day? Not much if you can't communicate with your partner. You really should be renting by the hour, rather than signing up for the life-time plan.

Nice post Nancy and very true. Communication is everything. I can"t fathom not being able to rationally communicate with a person I am dating and from what I have witnessed over the last 4 years is if you are dating a Thai women and you leave it up to pure translation you are in deep trouble. It simply does not translate straight across. As a transfer program manager of operations here to Thailand I witnessed this first hand in the procedures to build the product. It does not work.

Edited February 23, 2011 by JPPR2

[richard_smith237]

Giveher a large sum of money invested in her name in cash, gold or securities making it clear you will need to draw on itif an urgent need arises. If your going to live with her for the rest of yourlife you have to be able to trust her so sum has to be at least 2 million baht

Waitone year and say you now need half of it back to pay back a debt or some otherreason.

Perhaps this point alone could be one of the biggest mistakes a Westerner could make in Thailand - It could certainly be rather costly !

I'm not sure a successful relationship based on mutual trust and honesty needs testing, but one also has to look very closely in the mirror when deciding if their relationship is based on mutual trust and honesty......

[Berkshire]

I'm a retired western woman, living here for over 2 years with my husband of nearly 35 years. I thought the OP's question was about whether he should retire here. Somehow it became a thread on the evils of Thai women. When I first started reading this thread, I was ready to offer advice about not buying land/home vs. renting, not falling in love, and finding hobbies besides hanging out in bars drinking with other westerners.

But no, this thread has become something much more. Believe it or not, I actually know western guys who have retired here and don't have sexual relations with Thai women. (Ok, I can only vouch for sure for one because we keep a tight budget, but he has friends whose wives make the same claim). This is a delightful and economical place to live. Hubby and I came here three years ago and lived for a month as if we were retired, putting together a detailed excel spreadsheet for a projected budget. We found many new friends in Chiang Mai who were willing to critique our proposed budget and point out shortfalls. Then we reviewed our plans with our financial advisor in the U.S.

Turns out, he had two other couples as clients who had retired to Thailand. His big piece of advice -- be sure you have your life in your home country in order before you move to Thailand, because a couple of "emergency" trips back to the home country will evaporate any savings from living in Thailand. He said one of his client couples had to return to the U.S. when a parent needed to enter a nursing home and then a few months later, they "had" to return when an adult child was arrested on drug-related charges.

Oh, and since many posters haven't found the secret to a 35-year marriage, let me share a couple of secrets -- communication and a sense of humor/whimsy (not humor/irony). Earlier in this thread, Ian Forbes wisely pointed out that good sex can only take so you so far. What do you do for the rest of the day? Not much if you can't communicate with your partner. You really should be renting by the hour, rather than signing up for the life-time plan.

Nice post Nancy and very true. Communication is everything. I can"t fathom not being able to rationally communicate with a person I am dating and from what I have witnessed over the last 4 years is if you are dating a Thai women and you leave it up to pure translation you are in deep trouble. It simply does not translate straight across. As a transfer program manager of operations here to Thailand I witnessed this first hand in the procedures to build the product. It does not work.

I agree with the both of you. It's common sense, really. Couples who share the same language and cultural background still have problems communicating sometimes (albeit, at a deeper level). Imagine folks who don't even share the same language, let alone all the other cultural baggage. Sometimes I just don't get it, some of the farang/Thai relationships that I see in Thailand. There was an article written by a Thai guy in Stickman that suggested that "communication" was the biggest obstacle in having a successful Thai/farang relationship.

[AlexJennings]

Another mistake I notice when walking around Bangkok: Tourists assuming, like in the West, pedestrians come first.

[Pakboong]

Most cultures repeat a chain of failure for many generations with no clue how to stop it. Not just 3rd world cultures. In the Chinese culture for example, a particular generation will often sacrifice itself for the sake of future generations but this very seldom happens in the Thai culture. Money will be poorly spent if and when any exists. creature comforts at the most basic levels will replace any concept of what will happen to future generations. This simple chain of failure repeats itself as surely as anything.

Many a Farang has thought he or she could influence this chain of failure by throwing some money at it but the result is always the same. The money is wasted on creature comfort and the Thai family repeats the failure of its parents. Education by itself does little to change the chain but if there is to be any success at all, education remains am important part of the equation.

In 35 years of living among the poor of Thailand, I have seen no serious examples of success.

Of course, you can see the same examples in the west. My family for example, has failed on both sides of the ocean for as long as anyone can remember. We have been content to make up the working class where ever we happen to live and do little to break the chain. It actually becomes the natural order of things to promote common sense over "book" learning. My favorite example.

[GreenSnapper]

Another mistake I notice when walking around Bangkok: Tourists assuming, like in the West, pedestrians come first.

And zebra crossings are there for pedestrians to safely cross a road

[ignoramus]

Nice post NancyL, especially the point about humor/whimsy.

[mstribling]

Mistake: thinking that red, green, and yellow mean something.

[bifftastic]

Most cultures repeat a chain of failure for many generations with no clue how to stop it. Not just 3rd world cultures. In the Chinese culture for example, a particular generation will often sacrifice itself for the sake of future generations but this very seldom happens in the Thai culture. Money will be poorly spent if and when any exists. creature comforts at the most basic levels will replace any concept of what will happen to future generations. This simple chain of failure repeats itself as surely as anything.

Many a Farang has thought he or she could influence this chain of failure by throwing some money at it but the result is always the same. The money is wasted on creature comfort and the Thai family repeats the failure of its parents. Education by itself does little to change the chain but if there is to be any success at all, education remains am important part of the equation.

In 35 years of living among the poor of Thailand, I have seen no serious examples of success.

Of course, you can see the same examples in the west. My family for example, has failed on both sides of the ocean for as long as anyone can remember. We have been content to make up the working class where ever we happen to live and do little to break the chain. It actually becomes the natural order of things to promote common sense over "book" learning. My favorite example.

I would have to take issue here with your definitions of success and failure.

I do , I think, understand the point you are trying to make, some people define success as being able to escape their working class roots, others are content to work, provide for their families and may define success as doing just that.

There is, in my country at least, a notion that social mobility, as it used to be called, is some kind of holy grail, and that this, above all other achievements, is the one we must all strive for.

Whilst I would not deny anyone the opportunity to do whatever they wish to in life, much of the fabric of family can be un-ravelled when this occurs on a large scale. People all chasing 'advancement' often leave behind everything of true value in their quest for this particular carrot dangled in front of them.

That is not to say that I believe education or 'book learning' as you refer to it as, is not important. I think everyone should be able to pursue their potential in any way they can. However, learning and education does not require a person to no longer be working class, nor does it necessarily mean that working class people are, somehow, being denied anything by either circumstance or ignorance. It may be that these 'creature comforts' you deem as a sign of failure are, to them, the opposite.

By definition, there must always be people who work, not everyone can become middle class, it just isn't possible. Some also do not desire to forsake what they have in order to enter this particular tier of any society. It can be seen as lacking in morals, love, family unity and a sense of integrity or honesty.

Not everyone would like to be in positions of power over other people and not everyone would regard the attainment of such positions as success.

It is entirely possible to be successful whilst working with your hands, for instance, earning money with which to provide yourself and your family with food, clothing, shelter and a few creature comforts, and be rightfully proud of your achievement.

The idea that one must continually climb this invisible ladder, forever upwards, could be described as a mistake farangs often make, both in Thailand and elsewhere. In my opinion.

[HeavyDrinker]

Worst thing I did in Thailand was to get caught slipping home with a lady by Mr Bojangles on soi Diana Inn one night.

Took me a year to forget that one...

[Forethat]

Worst thing I did in Thailand was to get caught slipping home with a lady by Mr Bojangles on soi Diana Inn one night.

Took me a year to forget that one...

[craigt3365]

I'm a retired western woman, living here for over 2 years with my husband of nearly 35 years. I thought the OP's question was about whether he should retire here. Somehow it became a thread on the evils of Thai women. When I first started reading this thread, I was ready to offer advice about not buying land/home vs. renting, not falling in love, and finding hobbies besides hanging out in bars drinking with other westerners.

But no, this thread has become something much more. Believe it or not, I actually know western guys who have retired here and don't have sexual relations with Thai women. (Ok, I can only vouch for sure for one because we keep a tight budget, but he has friends whose wives make the same claim). This is a delightful and economical place to live. Hubby and I came here three years ago and lived for a month as if we were retired, putting together a detailed excel spreadsheet for a projected budget. We found many new friends in Chiang Mai who were willing to critique our proposed budget and point out shortfalls. Then we reviewed our plans with our financial advisor in the U.S.

Turns out, he had two other couples as clients who had retired to Thailand. His big piece of advice -- be sure you have your life in your home country in order before you move to Thailand, because a couple of "emergency" trips back to the home country will evaporate any savings from living in Thailand. He said one of his client couples had to return to the U.S. when a parent needed to enter a nursing home and then a few months later, they "had" to return when an adult child was arrested on drug-related charges.

Oh, and since many posters haven't found the secret to a 35-year marriage, let me share a couple of secrets -- communication and a sense of humor/whimsy (not humor/irony). Earlier in this thread, Ian Forbes wisely pointed out that good sex can only take so you so far. What do you do for the rest of the day? Not much if you can't communicate with your partner. You really should be renting by the hour, rather than signing up for the life-time plan.

Nice post Nancy and very true. Communication is everything. I can"t fathom not being able to rationally communicate with a person I am dating and from what I have witnessed over the last 4 years is if you are dating a Thai women and you leave it up to pure translation you are in deep trouble. It simply does not translate straight across. As a transfer program manager of operations here to Thailand I witnessed this first hand in the procedures to build the product. It does not work.

+1 Nancy!

When we first got married, we use to call it "lost in translation". Quite a few arguments came about due to this. She meant one thing, but said another. Or I said something and she "assumed" something else. Doesn't happen now as her English is very good. Makes a HUGE difference.

[Pakboong]

Most cultures repeat a chain of failure for many generations with no clue how to stop it. Not just 3rd world cultures. In the Chinese culture for example, a particular generation will often sacrifice itself for the sake of future generations but this very seldom happens in the Thai culture. Money will be poorly spent if and when any exists. creature comforts at the most basic levels will replace any concept of what will happen to future generations. This simple chain of failure repeats itself as surely as anything.

Many a Farang has thought he or she could influence this chain of failure by throwing some money at it but the result is always the same. The money is wasted on creature comfort and the Thai family repeats the failure of its parents. Education by itself does little to change the chain but if there is to be any success at all, education remains am important part of the equation.

In 35 years of living among the poor of Thailand, I have seen no serious examples of success.

Of course, you can see the same examples in the west. My family for example, has failed on both sides of the ocean for as long as anyone can remember. We have been content to make up the working class where ever we happen to live and do little to break the chain. It actually becomes the natural order of things to promote common sense over "book" learning. My favorite example.

I would have to take issue here with your definitions of success and failure.

I do , I think, understand the point you are trying to make, some people define success as being able to escape their working class roots, others are content to work, provide for their families and may define success as doing just that.

There is, in my country at least, a notion that social mobility, as it used to be called, is some kind of holy grail, and that this, above all other achievements, is the one we must all strive for.

Whilst I would not deny anyone the opportunity to do whatever they wish to in life, much of the fabric of family can be un-ravelled when this occurs on a large scale. People all chasing 'advancement' often leave behind everything of true value in their quest for this particular carrot dangled in front of them.

That is not to say that I believe education or 'book learning' as you refer to it as, is not important. I think everyone should be able to pursue their potential in any way they can. However, learning and education does not require a person to no longer be working class, nor does it necessarily mean that working class people are, somehow, being denied anything by either circumstance or ignorance. It may be that these 'creature comforts' you deem as a sign of failure are, to them, the opposite.

By definition, there must always be people who work, not everyone can become middle class, it just isn't possible. Some also do not desire to forsake what they have in order to enter this particular tier of any society. It can be seen as lacking in morals, love, family unity and a sense of integrity or honesty.

Not everyone would like to be in positions of power over other people and not everyone would regard the attainment of such positions as success.

It is entirely possible to be successful whilst working with your hands, for instance, earning money with which to provide yourself and your family with food, clothing, shelter and a few creature comforts, and be rightfully proud of your achievement.

The idea that one must continually climb this invisible ladder, forever upwards, could be described as a mistake farangs often make, both in Thailand and elsewhere. In my opinion.

There is no question that somebody has to pick the lettuce but to have that predetermined by your family history is very unfortunate and happens in the vast majority of the cases. Many methods will be used by a family to hold back everyone in the family for the sake of the weakest link. More energy will be spent on the likely losers than the likely winners.

If you have seen the movie out recently "The Fighter" is a perfect example of the matriarch exercising her control to ensure the failure of the family. Of course, she doesn't know she is contributing to the family failure, it is what she knows to do.

I see this daily in Thai families. Nobody expects to pull away and lead his/her part of the family into a new and perhaps better direction.