18 Yr-old Dutch Woman Raped In Phuket

[Foggy Bottom]

The two singers have yet to be found, but face charges of rape, punishable by imprisonment of four years to 20 years and a fine of 8,000 baht to 40,000 baht.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

&lt;deleted&gt; is the point of a 8,000 - 40,000 baht fine?

Its an insult to the victims of such a crime

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Put it in context of the national average earnings - remember that the government stipulated minimum wage (here in the north) is only B147 per day, and you have to provide your worker with a main meal if you pay bang on the minimum (or below it).

Don't apply western income standards when judging the level of the fine. Whilst government ministers here could pay that from their pocket change, 98% of the population would have to sell their house to pay a fine like that.

[Miami Bob]

Well, one thing is for sure, IF THE ARTICLE IS ACCURATE, those two Thai guys are "screwed". Talk about stupid! They probably knew she was taking photos of them and she knows where they live. Considering the current downturn in tourism Thai officials will be especially displeased by Thai men raping tourists and they may make an example of these two jokers and give them the maximum of 20 years.

[SiamJai]

Rule of Triple P's: Phuket + Patong + pub = *insert any dirty sexual crime here*

... so, what's new?

[sriracha john]

The issues regarding tourism are very valid... This easily has the potential to make it to the international news level with very dour consequences...

The world will be watching if it does.

Young tourist raped on island paradise, escapes... only to be raped again.

To add to all of Phuket's other woes...

[Rumpole]

Considering the current downturn in tourism Thai officials will be especially displeased by Thai men raping tourists and they may make an example of these two jokers and give them the maximum of 20 years.

There again, they may not. The policeman who gunned down the two British tourists in cold blood, was not exactly treated to the full might of the law. There have been a number of untimely Western deaths and assaults on foreigners of late, but it seems that unlike in the past, the police are none too swift or efficient in bringing perpetrators to justice.

I fear that this administration is fanning the flames of latent xenophobia and anti-Western feeling that lurks in the hearts and minds of many Thais. The message appears to be that farang are fair game and open season has begun. Yes, there is crime everywhere, and yes, Thailand is still probably a lot safer than many Western countries. Arguable, however, the place seems to be becoming a lot less safe for Westerners than it was before.

Edited September 15, 2005 by Rumpole

[RamTodatry]

How naive can someone be

[RamTodatry]

How naive can someone be

[Head Snake]

Every person in this story really took a lot of left hand turns in one single night.

The 2 Thai men will go to jail for a damned long time.

The 1 girl will have to deal with crimes committed against her. THe other, my Gawd, abandoning her younger sister in the wee hours. Try living with that.

This story reminds me of a girl I dated 13 years ago. I was told the story after asking about all the circular burn marks all over her body. Almost the same fricken story: On vacation in Spain with older Sister. They go out drinking several nights with some nice charming local men who show them the areas and nightlife. One night, they all go to a bar in a desolate area. One of the men asks the drunken girl to go out and watch the stars. Caution was thrown to the wind. SHe returned 2 hours later in shock with blood stained clothes - the clothes cut up with a knife. She was too ashamed to tell her sister until 2 days after that event. I was shocked her sister could not put the dots together. Besides raping her, the "nice charming" local cleaned out her insides with a tool he found in his truck and sadistically put dozens of cigarette burns over her body. She told me alot more graphic details that made me want to vomit.

There are sick dudes out there looking for an opportunity.

Although we must hear their side of the story, I see the dots and I'm pretty sure I can connect those dots. Cane them every month during their prison term

I need a beer.

[sbk]

It's amazing to me how many of the guys here automatically assume all Thai men are bad because two have raped a girl. Girls get raped by farangs in this country too. Girls get raped in their home countries. And amazingly how many guys think a girl is asking for it by being friendly! You know what my dad said to me last year? "It saddens me that my daughter is not safe to go out on the street alone, she should be able to. I can. What is wrong with people that they see someone as a target?"

What is wrong with you that you say these things? Would you say these things if she were your sister or your daughter?

[meemiathai]

Lynch those bastards!!!

[Zoltan]

Take it to the courts and let the truth come out!

[turbog]

A vulnerable 18 year old girl is raped and beaten - whilst visiting a room of an employee of the establishment she was in - the general consensus appears to be she was asking for it! this is not her fault you &lt;deleted&gt; - it is the sick f***kas that raped her:

Hang em

[DisainaM]

We only know the article, what really happened, we don`t know, may be it isn`t in the police report.

For examp., "you like to smoke some dope ? Ok let`s go in my room"

High on drug, unable to resist, they had sex,

may be, she didn`t realized, what she was doing,

but when the second guy arrived,

the whole thing become violent.

sex with drugs is dangerous,

same as drugs with a stranger.

[BlackJack]

It's amazing to me how many of the guys here automatically assume all Thai men are bad because two have raped a girl. Girls get raped by farangs in this country too. Girls get raped in their home countries. And amazingly how many guys think a girl is asking for it by being friendly! You know what my dad said to me last year? "It saddens me that my daughter is not safe to go out on the street  alone, she should be able to. I can. What is wrong with people that they see someone as a target?"

What is wrong with you that you say these things? Would you say these things if she were your sister or your daughter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i guess you dont walk on the street and get run down by thai men thinking its OK to drive top speed on the pavement

drunks in cars that kill or injure 50,000 everytime theres a thai festival

thai men fathering babies all over Thailand

lazy layabout SOB's

politicians who think its grand that their kids can shoot in front of witnesses policemen and get away with it

give me a break and wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 weeks ago one of these A Holes put a bullet in a 22 year old Uni students head -she is a cousin

then he capped himself

however he was drunk and she lay in pain bleeding for over an hour before she died

Get real with these guys and give real punishment

as the act is quick but the effects are long

[kat]

Thanks for your posts Sriracha John and SBK.

In general, young girls are more vulnerable because they are less experienced with the world, with their place in the world as females, and with men. This is no secret, as you can ask any of the local or foreign men here who have an obssession with underage and barely legal girls.

Yes, women and girls can get raped anywhere, and do, but the social norms and signals are different everywhere. The conditions and frequency of rape under those conditions are also different. In the West, women and girls are accustomed to platonic friendships with males, and know that there is an ethic that most decent males will follow.

There is no real ethic regarding male behavior towards women here. Most of the responsibility and blame rests with the female. If she is out after a certain time - her fault. If she did not cover her shoulders - her fault. If she was "stupid" enough to accompany a male or group of men by herself - her fault. Males here are raised without much responsibility, especially towards women. Therefore, the responsibility and blame always ends with the woman. In addition, the concept of weak or strong, advantaged or disadvantaged, replaces what most Westerners would expect as human rights or respect of the individual.

There is no way a young, new tourist is going to fully understand this information. Actually, there is no way that anyone will understand it, until you are in the midst of it. It is quite shocking, and unfortunately for females in Thailand, one of the more unpleasant and life-altering culture shocks. It cannot really be bad judgement if a person has no alternative way of knowing the difference except for experience or exposure.

The fact that Western males on this forum then go on to insinuate that naivete and bad judgment are somehow at the root of the problem, should have a go at being raped one day and then come back and tell us all about their fcking bad judgement

By the way, many Western male expats have no reason to get up on some high horse. Since most of the young women working in bars as prostitutes have been raped or sexually abused as a justification to send them into sex work, the expats are direct beneficiaries.

[arthsch]

big missunderstanding of theese stupid girls! if they go at this time with a thai-man, what did they expect? I dont like thai-men, because sometimes they dont like to think. they dont accept restistance. perhaps after several years in jail they will not be anymore interested on girls.

[britmaveric]

Well said Kat, however to clarify my initial point I did point out that I think its dangerous male/female to go alone with someone they really dont know. Should they have been raped - ###### no, but a little street sense goes a long way. I think most people automatically let their guard down when they are on holiday for some odd reason. Hopefully justice will be served, but I have my doubts because this is thailand.

SBK is right. There are Thai lads that would never do this, so lets not paint every thai man into this - not faire nor rational. It's obvious these two animals at an agenda from the get go.

[Johpa]

It's amazing to me how many of the guys here automatically assume all Thai men are bad because two have raped a girl.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sweeping statements that all Thai men are bad are indeed out of place. But there is no doubt in my mind that more Thai men are involved in abusive realtionships with women than in my home country. I know too many teachers, including middle age curmudgeons like myself, who have forced affairs with far, far younger students. I have know too many women who were forced to have sex, or outright raped, by their employers. The young 16 year old daughter of a very good friend committed suicide after becoming pregnant after one such rape. And if you have ever befriended bar girls, and I don't mean being a customer, you will hear case after case of physical abuse and rape by Thai men.

One should not bury their head in the sand with simple claims that abuse occurs elsewhere also. Get out of your Farang enclaves and upper middle class housing estates and condos and go live amongst the great lower class or rural populace for a decade or so and you too will begin to understand that Thailand shares this problem with other countries, but in a far more serious manner.

[The_Moog]

By the way, many Western male expats have no reason to get up on some high horse. Since most of the young women working in bars as prostitutes have been raped or sexually abused as a justification to send them into sex work, the expats are direct beneficiaries.

As 'conditioning' do you mean. Part of the desensitization process employed by traffickers.

[kat]

No, Moog, that is a different issue altogether. I mean that there is a very high correlation between sex work and sexual abuse. In Thailand, it is not uncommon for male relatives to think of a young female's virginity as the only barrier to using her for sex. Once that is gone, the taboo of incest is not really taboo. And vice versa, if she is going to earn money through sex, then their thinking is that she's going to be used property anyway.

[Boo]

So 2 thai men raped a western girl & now the western guys are saying what bad guys thai guys are? If this one report is anything to go by then it is trial by thaivisa for a whole nation of men is it? In that case, as per the loads of news reports recently about the western peodos in thailand, all western guys like having sex with children. Stupid isn't it?

This is a sad situation for the girl involved & I hope they catch the guys soon & I hope she can get over her trauma & not look badly on Thailand or her people (of both sexes)

[Diablo Bob]

Great forum.......

EVERYBODY has a great approach and take on the issue....... some are a little harsh.

QUESTION: The arctile said, something to the effect that she went to his room to get something????????????????????

Something?

WHAT is "Something"?

Personally, it sounds like a drug deal gone bad! But none the less, she was raped! Or was she?

I don't know about about Phuket, but in Los Angeles it takes around 5-7 days for a difinnitive result on a semen swab! This might have to do with volume though, or maybe the complexity of the testing required......

One of our contributers, said something to the effect "Wait for the facts!" Great advise.....

The way this forum is heading, I am afraid we will dilafy ALL the Thai males and forget the rest of the story.

My brother is a defense attorney (I hate lawyers), he has defended some of the mosr peutrid people known to man (I have questioned him about this by the way) and it seems that there is normally two sides to every story! One truthfull the other not!

Wait a few weeks, and lets see what happens.......... IF in fact she got raped by these two gentlemen after a finding of fact in a court of law, then lets go for a public castration.

Diablo Bob

[Head Snake]

Rape trials are typically a he said, she said scenario unless there was a direct witness like when that idiot second guy apparently beat her in front of others before taking her somewhere for more beating/rape.

The first guy might actually have a completely different view compared to what we are assuming. There may be no witness to his actions. And at 3:30 am, who is up anyway?

Will the women be cooperative witnesses the whole trial?

Will the defense depict the women as "asking for it"

How will the courts allow either local thai or tourist sentiment sway the verdict?

[sriracha john]

We only know the article, what really happened, we don`t know, may be it isn`t in the police report.

For examp., "you like to smoke some dope ? Ok let`s go in my room"

High on drug, unable to resist, they had sex,

may be, she didn`t realized, what she was doing,

but when the second guy arrived,

the whole thing become violent.

sex with drugs is dangerous,

same as drugs with a stranger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do prove another point and that is that taking drugs before you post on TV is also dangerous...

[thymode91]

Ahhhhhhh!! old story...Rule of the thumb..."Don't ever trust stranger" thats' it...

[StateSix]

There was a 23 year old man convicted yesterday of raping a 19 year old woman just up the road from where I lived in the UK. He broke her jaw in 2 places and 2 of her fingers. He also filmed it on his mobile so he could show the images to his friends. Does this mean that all British men are not to be trusted as a lot of posters here seem to imply about Thai men? The girl met him in a nightclub and left with him. Should she have 'expected it' because she left the club with a man she barely knew?

The report said this Dutch girl was on friendly terms with him. Maybe she had been hanging out with him for a week and felt she knew him enough to go back to his room. Maybe she had only met him that night and naively went back to his room. Either way she did not deserve and should not expect to be raped. And those who are suggesting that she was buying drugs or some type of drug user are way out of line. There is nothing in the report to suggest that this was the case. Even if she had done so, it still does not excuse the terrible thing that happened to her.

Somebody mentioned that rape cases are hard to prove due to the nature of the crime - no independent witnesses etc. However that is where forensic evidence comes in. A black eye, torn clothing, vaginal bleeding, bruising around the top of the legs, on her wrists etc. These are all indications that forced sex has taken place. It is a bit hard to argue sex was consensual if there is evidence such as this.

All those people who are making judgements on this girl without knowing the facts should imagine how they would feel if it was their gf, sister, mother etc. Would you still be saying things like you were naive, why did you go back with him, what did you expect. No you would not. And you would be angry if people on forum boards were blaming her and suggesting she brought it on herself without knowing the facts. I know I would.

A final point. I have read many topics/threads from guys complaining about how they have taken a lady of the night and had things stolen from them (admittedly this site discourages those sort of posts). These guys never stand up and say 'sorry I was naive to take a complete stranger to my apartment, I should have expected it'. Instead they paint all bar girls etc as thieves and start ranting and raving. Whilst theft cannot be compared with rape, it is still an example of double standards.

BTW the British rapist got 14 years, but could well be out in 7 with good behaviour.

[meemiathai]

Very nice post.

BTW the British rapist got 14 years, but could well be out in 7 with good behaviour.

I am really angry that in so many places the punishment for rape is as lenient as that.

Whilst theft cannot be compared with rape, it is still an example of double standards.

I thought farangs did not have double standards?

[dogeater]

Bad judgement - don't go anywhere with someone you really dont know. (Same applies if it was a male)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who....her sister?

[sbk]

It's amazing to me how many of the guys here automatically assume all Thai men are bad because two have raped a girl.

Sweeping statements that all Thai men are bad are indeed out of place. But there is no doubt in my mind that more Thai men are involved in abusive realtionships with women than in my home country. I know too many teachers, including middle age curmudgeons like myself, who have forced affairs with far, far younger students. I have know too many women who were forced to have sex, or outright raped, by their employers. The young 16 year old daughter of a very good friend committed suicide after becoming pregnant after one such rape. And if you have ever befriended bar girls, and I don't mean being a customer, you will hear case after case of physical abuse and rape by Thai men.

One should not bury their head in the sand with simple claims that abuse occurs elsewhere also. Get out of your Farang enclaves and upper middle class housing estates and condos and go live amongst the great lower class or rural populace for a decade or so and you too will begin to understand that Thailand shares this problem with other countries, but in a far more serious manner.

Johpa, that is me you are quoting and I hate to break it to you but I neither live in a "farang enclave" nor "upper middle class housing". I have lived in and amongst local Thais for the past 17 years. I think I do know what I am talking about. Yes, I see violence from time to time, just as often against men as against women. I suspect that extreme poverty breeds this kind of violence so perhaps that is why it is less prevalent where I live. Also, the local Thai people are all very interconnected, indeed, it is a small island, and if one person goes bad then rather quickly everyone knows about it.

[thohts]

The real crime here, besides the rape, is people like us blaming victims of rape for what happened.