Four Romanians Arrested In Phuket In Bt100m ATM Scam

[TAWP]

Do you really think these guys choosed Thailand because they wanted a vacation???

It is not about Thailand bashing. It is about the thai bank system.

These guys know they never can use a forged ATM card in EU because the ATM mashines over there read the informations from the chips and not from megnetic stripes.

In thailand the ATM mashines read the information from the magnetic stripes.

Thats why these gangs come to thailand.

Not completely accurate.

They don't come to Thailand specifically for the 'Thai banking system' - many countries has banks that still rely solely on the magnetic strip.

[aurelius]

Bangkok Bank has a debit card using Chip technology and it seems to be fully protected because it only works at their chip-enabled ATMs. That means that the other banks here haven't put chip reading into their ATMs yet.

[MAJIC]

I think some of you missed the part where the card numbers were stolen in the UK, not Thailand.

Makes one wonder why they had to come to Thailand to use the cards,and complete the Scam, though?

Anyone have the explaination?

Like I explained earlier.

This sort of crime has been going on for years, a lot of the time stolen cards and details are moved abroad to put distance between the fraudster and the victim. The first alarm will sound in the UK or wherever and this buys a little extra time, although that time is coming down lower and lower as technology improves. But that little extra time while the authorities communicate with each other, can be the difference between getting caught and getting away.

Also, Thailand has an unusually high number of ATM machines.. they seem to be everywhere, and there are not a lot of queues waiting at them, i rarely have to wait behind someone, and dont recall many times where people are waiting for me. So it is a lot more private at an ATM than in the UK. Also less surveylance cameras around.. UK is saturated with them.

Then if they did eventually get caught, they know so long as they have 100 million baht sat safely somewhere, it is just a case of asking your lawyer to politely arrange 20 million of it to hit the correct pockets, and hey presto, you are free to go. That is something you won't be able to do in the UK. Yet it is common knowledge that money buys freedom in Thailand.

So all in all, i would think Thailand is the obviouse place to come and complete the heist.

I understand the basis of your explaination,most of which makes good sense,

however having had my ATM Card Provider stop withdrawals,whilst on Holiday , 3 times(after telling my Bank I would be making withdrawals from Thailand) I think there would be more chance of "unusual withdrawals" being flagged up quicker from Thailand, than from UK ATMs,as was the case in this instance. i.e UK ATM Card,withdrawing in Thailand!..... and Banks do know,right down to the street the ATM Machine is positioned, so withdrawals can be easily blocked,quickly.

Coupled with the Limitation of daily withdrawal amounts,set by either or both Banks.

Edited March 15, 2011 by MAJIC

[aurelius]

ATM skimming is a typical Eastern European Art. Just as blowing up ATM's are given the fact that there are numerous old style ATM's in Thailand one would expect that to happen next. The bottomline is however that banks in Thailand, the USA and a couple of other countries are plain lazy and are refusing to give up the 1970's magnetic strip. Remove it, use a chip and there is no such robbery possible anymore,

Actually outside the countries around the UK , I don't believe any other country has moved fully to eliminating magnetic strip ATM machines. In fact I am not even sure the UK has fully switched over.

Very off to think a developing nation should be at the same level as the UK who is clearly WAY ahead of other nations in terms of leading this race regarding more secure ATM cards/machines. Maybe it is because there is other cheaper technology around the corner? Maybe countries are lazy but the bottom line is I doubt US Credit Card companies are ignoring these issues considering they are the major card holders and taking the biggest losses. As for Thailand, they are moving to the smart cards but just like in the UK ... it takes time.

Again, great job by the Thai police catching these Farang criminals praying on other Farangs.

Agree. The other risk area, which is catching the UK banks as well, is online transaction fraud - where there is no way the mag stripe or chip is verified as part of the actual transaction. Hence the use of so-called 3D secure passwords etc which create some additional cardholder information to reduce unauthorised card use. But not fool-proof and doesn't prevent malware from capturing your personal info.

[ericthai]

ATM skimming is a typical Eastern European Art. Just as blowing up ATM's are given the fact that there are numerous old style ATM's in Thailand one would expect that to happen next. The bottomline is however that banks in Thailand, the USA and a couple of other countries are plain lazy and are refusing to give up the 1970's magnetic strip. Remove it, use a chip and there is no such robbery possible anymore,

They are starting to use the new cards in the USA, just got my new discover card with the chip in it.

[Nisa]

Bangkok Bank has a debit card using Chip technology and it seems to be fully protected because it only works at their chip-enabled ATMs. That means that the other banks here haven't put chip reading into their ATMs yet.

You sure it only works at their ATMs? I guess that would be good for local people but not if they plan to travel where there are no BKK Bank ATMs but you have to start somewhere. Bottom line, moving to a new technology is no easy task especially when you are talking electronics when after full implementation another technology comes along that is better and the crooks have already found a way to get around the currently used technology.

[ericthai]

I think some of you missed the part where the card numbers were stolen in the UK, not Thailand.

Makes one wonder why they had to come to Thailand to use the cards,and complete the Scam, though?

Anyone have the explaination?

Like I explained earlier.

This sort of crime has been going on for years, a lot of the time stolen cards and details are moved abroad to put distance between the fraudster and the victim. The first alarm will sound in the UK or wherever and this buys a little extra time, although that time is coming down lower and lower as technology improves. But that little extra time while the authorities communicate with each other, can be the difference between getting caught and getting away.

Also, Thailand has an unusually high number of ATM machines.. they seem to be everywhere, and there are not a lot of queues waiting at them, i rarely have to wait behind someone, and dont recall many times where people are waiting for me. So it is a lot more private at an ATM than in the UK. Also less surveylance cameras around.. UK is saturated with them.

Then if they did eventually get caught, they know so long as they have 100 million baht sat safely somewhere, it is just a case of asking your lawyer to politely arrange 20 million of it to hit the correct pockets, and hey presto, you are free to go. That is something you won't be able to do in the UK. Yet it is common knowledge that money buys freedom in Thailand.

So all in all, i would think Thailand is the obviouse place to come and complete the heist.

I understand the basis of your explaination,most of which makes good sense,

however having had my ATM Card Provider stop withdrawals,whilst on Holiday , 3 times(after telling my Bank I would be making withdrawals from Thailand) I think there would be more chance of "unusual withdrawals" being flagged up quicker from Thailand, than from UK ATMs,as was the case in this instance. i.e UK ATM Card,withdrawing in Thailand!..... and Banks do know,right down to the street the ATM Machine is positioned, so withdrawals can be easily blocked,quickly.

Coupled with the Limitation of daily withdrawal amounts,set by either or both Banks.

Correct, one of my USA visas will not even work in Thailand, I have tried to speak to my bank several time asking them to allow use when Im in Thailand, but they said Thailand is considered high risk and they can not open it for use in Thailand. My other USE visa will only allow me to charge $50 no more, I ended up having to get a credit card from Thailand because of this.

[Nisa]

Do you really think these guys choosed Thailand because they wanted a vacation???

It is not about Thailand bashing. It is about the thai bank system.

These guys know they never can use a forged ATM card in EU because the ATM mashines over there read the informations from the chips and not from megnetic stripes.

In thailand the ATM mashines read the information from the magnetic stripes.

Thats why these gangs come to thailand.

Where else in the world outside of EU have they moved even more than 50% of their ATM to the smart card technology? And as far as I know they have not fully done away with the magnetic readers in the EU ... if they did then it would certainly make it difficult for those from places such as the US to withdraw funds while on vacation.

Thailand was a perfect destination because of easy entry and how many Europeans vacation here as well as spending time in the resorts areas offer a lot of fun. They certainly could have picked just about any where else in the world where ATMs that go off the magnetic strip are still in abundance. What I am sure about is they didn't think that, "at least if we get caught in Thailand the jails are nice"

However they could have thought that they might be able to buy there way out of trouble here considering the corruption levels in most all developing nations.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Correct, one of my USA visas will not even work in Thailand, I have tried to speak to my bank several time asking them to allow use when Im in Thailand, but they said Thailand is considered high risk and they can not open it for use in Thailand. My other USE visa will only allow me to charge $50 no more, I ended up having to get a credit card from Thailand because of this.

curious .. what banks issued these cards? I have never heard of such a thing and never had any trouble with any card I have even though some are from very small regional banks. However, I have had to call and alert them I would be traveling internationally.

[Nisa]

Another advantage Thailand may offer is the lack of Video cameras in and around their ATMs. It is near impossible to go to an ATM in the US without being caught on some camera.

[newsite12]

It's good to see some coordination between the international enforcement agencies, banks and the Thai cops. 100 mil baht is not chump change. For some bloke in London who discovers his account is low by hundreds or thousands of quid because of withdrawals made in Phuket when he never left the UK, I'm sure this some welcome relief.

I hope UK banks don't settle this fraudulent amount with the Thai Banks and let them take the hit for not thinking investment in security is good for business on the long term....

LOL ... how ridiculous. They are UK Cards designed by the UK and designed to work on the ATM machines here and in all the rest of the world that hasn't moved to the UK standard. If the UK Banks choose to invest in developing nations & third world nation's banking technology then they can blame the host country for not using their technology. They can also ban the use of their cards in places like the US who have not rolled out smart chip technology solely at any public ATMs

They should also not hold a UK Auto insured responsible for an accident in the USA if they were driving on the left side of the road

You don't half talk some <deleted>.... what an airhead.

[newsite12]

I think some of you missed the part where the card numbers were stolen in the UK, not Thailand.

Makes one wonder why they had to come to Thailand to use the cards,and complete the Scam, though?

Anyone have the explaination?

Like I explained earlier.

This sort of crime has been going on for years, a lot of the time stolen cards and details are moved abroad to put distance between the fraudster and the victim. The first alarm will sound in the UK or wherever and this buys a little extra time, although that time is coming down lower and lower as technology improves. But that little extra time while the authorities communicate with each other, can be the difference between getting caught and getting away.

Also, Thailand has an unusually high number of ATM machines.. they seem to be everywhere, and there are not a lot of queues waiting at them, i rarely have to wait behind someone, and dont recall many times where people are waiting for me. So it is a lot more private at an ATM than in the UK. Also less surveylance cameras around.. UK is saturated with them.

Then if they did eventually get caught, they know so long as they have 100 million baht sat safely somewhere, it is just a case of asking your lawyer to politely arrange 20 million of it to hit the correct pockets, and hey presto, you are free to go. That is something you won't be able to do in the UK. Yet it is common knowledge that money buys freedom in Thailand.

So all in all, i would think Thailand is the obviouse place to come and complete the heist.

I understand the basis of your explaination,most of which makes good sense,

however having had my ATM Card Provider stop withdrawals,whilst on Holiday , 3 times(after telling my Bank I would be making withdrawals from Thailand) I think there would be more chance of "unusual withdrawals" being flagged up quicker from Thailand, than from UK ATMs,as was the case in this instance. i.e UK ATM Card,withdrawing in Thailand!..... and Banks do know,right down to the street the ATM Machine is positioned, so withdrawals can be easily blocked,quickly.

Coupled with the Limitation of daily withdrawal amounts,set by either or both Banks.

That is absolutely correct... but then again, they will only withdraw up to the limit and usually toss the card... these guys have hundredfs of blanks and probably get emailed the bank info with the pin number literally in their hundreds... these guys are almost certainly not doing this in a small setup... this is allpart of a huge network, info and pins are mostly coming from eastern europeans working in restaurants, bars, hotels, shops in the UK.. My stepdaughtey had her details skimmed on the very first time she used it, and it was a brand new card, and she only used it in one place.... TESCOS... and they got her. These people are supplying the info.. The police in our town also got someone who was skimming in B&Q, these are chip and pin cards. but they were using inline recording device to record all the electronic pulses.. Simply unplug the pinbox isert the skimmer into the connection and reconnect. Go home, download to your laptop and email to the network and get paid.

Chip and Pin was actually only developed to stoppeople from stealing your card and using it in a retail outlet. This scam has a totally different crime of a different kind... no bank has developed a smartcard to combat skimming.

[heybruce]

looks like thai atm are outdated and have serious security loopholes, if information from the skimmed uk cards is send to thailand.

all this scams from the international gangs are on the top of the local gangs, trying to call bank users and steal sensitive info from them. Every few weeks somebody from my family is called from the "bank" and asked to go to some particular cash mashine and enter pin, to re-activate their card.

"The complaints from London and the bank reported that ATMs in the UK were fitted with devices to record account information to a USB drive."

Security loopholes in what country?

[jazzbo]

No security regime re: ATMs is fool proof in any country ... One thing you can do to protect yourself whether in Thailand or your home country is to maintain a 'Master' account with the bulk of your assets with NO ATM access. Then transfer amounts into a second (or third) account and use that account t for ATM access so there is never a large balance at any one time in the ATM-accessible account.

[dunkin2012]

Do you really think these guys choosed Thailand because they wanted a vacation???

It is not about Thailand bashing. It is about the thai bank system.

These guys know they never can use a forged ATM card in EU because the ATM mashines over there read the informations from the chips and not from megnetic stripes.

In thailand the ATM mashines read the information from the magnetic stripes.

Thats why these gangs come to thailand.

Where else in the world outside of EU have they moved even more than 50% of their ATM to the smart card technology? And as far as I know they have not fully done away with the magnetic readers in the EU ... if they did then it would certainly make it difficult for those from places such as the US to withdraw funds while on vacation.

Thailand was a perfect destination because of easy entry and how many Europeans vacation here as well as spending time in the resorts areas offer a lot of fun. They certainly could have picked just about any where else in the world where ATMs that go off the magnetic strip are still in abundance. What I am sure about is they didn't think that, "at least if we get caught in Thailand the jails are nice"

However they could have thought that they might be able to buy there way out of trouble here considering the corruption levels in most all developing nations.

I'm certain that these guys ain't done a research for the Thai prison's life at all.

Here is what Dave Mc millan, an Aussie/British told BBC(some said exaggerated): He was caught by Thai Police for the charge of Drug Trafficking in Yaowarat,China Town in 1995 .And he could escape(bravery) from the main prison, Klongplem in BKK before a near-certain death sentencewith a false document.

The main prison's condition is too much over-capacity cos' there are 25 prisoners packed into one cell. Security is loosely bein' implemented as there ain't enough staffs. For the estimation, one staff is to take care of 120 prisoners alone. Bribing is vastly seen there. Bringing stuff in and out from the prison is a game of using money. Additionally, the security guards usually take a good snap in the nite time that forms his escapin' plan possible.

Below is the picture to give you an idea of how it's like in many Thai Prisons.

http://www.thaipriso...=125&Itemid=118

please read this book for more details. But some said Mc Millan exaggerated.

http://www.amazon.co...ASIN=9810575688

Edited March 16, 2011 by dunkin2012

[Macmundi]

The banks can text messages to owner's cellphones each time money is withdrawn or when it exceeds a certain amount, just like transferring fees. That should give time for owner to call the police or the bank if the card is accessed without owner's notice. These scam artists have skills why dont they use it in a more legal way?!

[scania]

Thx for the pix. They help many to understand how the device actually works....

So we all ought to protect our own cards and money and properties.... so others can not steal anything from us.

With a little bit of advance planning I actually only use ATM's that are inside banks. Most of those are under surveillance by guards and therefore scammers have view possibilities to install their devices.

Yes good Idea, just use indoor ATM´s under survailance/security. Everybody should keep that in mind and thanks for the tips.

[F4UCorsair]

Why Thailand dude? I am curious to know from these guys. Why not Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, the Philippines or where else? Is it Because the legal system is to weak? Or Thailand is a heaven for these crooks.

It's not just Thailand. This is happening in many/most countries. I've been rung by my bank and advised of suspicious activity before I knew and had a new card issued. Some Australian banks now require that a card holder travelling to a 'high risk' area, and most countries in SE Asia are on the list, notify them prior to departure and nominate a maximum amount of any transaction they anticipate. I've even had my card reissued after visiting Thailand and Vietnam. If I refused the offer, I would be responsible for future losses; easy decision.

[harleyclarkey]

Why Thailand dude? I am curious to know from these guys. Why not Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, the Philippines or where else? Is it Because the legal system is to weak? Or Thailand is a heaven for these crooks.

It's not just Thailand. This is happening in many/most countries. I've been rung by my bank and advised of suspicious activity before I knew and had a new card issued. Some Australian banks now require that a card holder travelling to a 'high risk' area, and most countries in SE Asia are on the list, notify them prior to departure and nominate a maximum amount of any transaction they anticipate. I've even had my card reissued after visiting Thailand and Vietnam. If I refused the offer, I would be responsible for future losses; easy decision.

They (Romanians) have been caught here in Ireland a few times.

[louse1953]

Sometimes the best offense towards crime is a good defense. Avoid using ATM's that are in high-foot traffic tourist areas. Try and use ones that are off the beaten track and also do a visual inspection of the card feeder. You can often spot that it has been tampered with or looks odd. Also change your password occasionally.

Sound advice. I actually set up my US Bank account to alert me via email to my balance every day. Not sure about Europe but in the US you can only be held accountable for $50 or some minimal amount if you report the card missing/stolen with in 48 or 72 hours. As for this kind of fraud you may be 100% covered but whose to say how long it takes to get that money back. Very dangerous in the US too in terms of fraud because Bank Cards issued in the USA can be swiped just like credit cards at any place that takes Visa/MC without putting your pin number in. The difference with a credit card is that in the Bank Card situation the money is debited immediately from your account. The only time you need to enter your pin is if you are withdrawing cash.

What I don't understand is how did they get the pin numbers? The card itself doesn't contain information on your secret PIN number and it sounds like a whole bunch of cards involved ... I guess a lot of spying by the ATMs where they set up the card readers.

When I went to Kunming, Yunan, China durin' the new year, I bought a pair of jeans. I couldn't use my credit card as they asked me to enter the PIN but I couldn't remember. I always use it without the PIN almost everywhere except in Kunming,China.

As for the case, I don't mind if they scam Thai banks cos' they unscrupulously make money from their clients. Charges are on every f*ckin' thing plus givin' poor exchange rates. The credit is for our Thai police again Bravo. However, there are some cases still mysterious up north where a few Farangs died at Downtown Inn........

Hey Dunkin,I got scammed,not Thai bank,wake up.

[louse1953]

Bangkok Bank has a debit card using Chip technology and it seems to be fully protected because it only works at their chip-enabled ATMs. That means that the other banks here haven't put chip reading into their ATMs yet.

You sure it only works at their ATMs? I guess that would be good for local people but not if they plan to travel where there are no BKK Bank ATMs but you have to start somewhere. Bottom line, moving to a new technology is no easy task especially when you are talking electronics when after full implementation another technology comes along that is better and the crooks have already found a way to get around the currently used technology.

Yes,it only works on their atm,and only withdraw to limit,not double limit as magnetic strip card allows.

[Nisa]

Bangkok Bank has a debit card using Chip technology and it seems to be fully protected because it only works at their chip-enabled ATMs. That means that the other banks here haven't put chip reading into their ATMs yet.

You sure it only works at their ATMs? I guess that would be good for local people but not if they plan to travel where there are no BKK Bank ATMs but you have to start somewhere. Bottom line, moving to a new technology is no easy task especially when you are talking electronics when after full implementation another technology comes along that is better and the crooks have already found a way to get around the currently used technology.

Yes,it only works on their atm,and only withdraw to limit,not double limit as magnetic strip card allows.

Thanks for the answer and ... Just curious .. what is "double limit" ?

[Sabre]

Sorry to disappoint all you Thai bashers:

"The complaints from London and the bank reported that ATMs in the UK were fitted with devices to record account information to a USB drive.

The USB drive was then brought to Thailand, where the account information was transferred onto blank ATM cards, after which money was withdrawn from the accounts using local ATMs, Maj Gen Panya explained."

Should read before commenting ...

Why Thailand dude? I am curious to know from these guys. Why not Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, the Philippines or where else? Is it Because the legal system is to weak? Or Thailand is a heaven for these crooks.

This kind of ATM card fraud has been around for a decade or so. Mostly practised by Malaysians and Indonesians. Many Malaysians come to Thailand to commit this kind of ATM card fraud because they feel it is more safe to do it in places like Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket, etc.

Russia has introduced smart card based ATM cards in 2006, already 5 years ago. This kind of ATM fraud is impossible with such debit or credit cards...

Why other countries are so sluggish to introduce ATM cards based on smart card technology?

In Soviet Russia, ATM card skims you.

[giruz]

Why Thailand dude? I am curious to know from these guys. Why not Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, the Philippines or where else? Is it Because the legal system is to weak? Or Thailand is a heaven for these crooks.

It's not just Thailand. This is happening in many/most countries. I've been rung by my bank and advised of suspicious activity before I knew and had a new card issued. Some Australian banks now require that a card holder travelling to a 'high risk' area, and most countries in SE Asia are on the list, notify them prior to departure and nominate a maximum amount of any transaction they anticipate. I've even had my card reissued after visiting Thailand and Vietnam. If I refused the offer, I would be responsible for future losses; easy decision.

You are correct. I worked in a fairly technical position for one of the two big payment scheme (V...) and I now work for a very large UK bank and fraud was/is one of the plague for western issuers. There are an handful of countries that are regarded as very high risk, to make it in that list you need a series of factors:

1) Easy connection (i.e. it is easy to enter/leave the country)

2) Weak (or weaker than western) legal system

3) ATMs that do not support chip & pin (e.g. the ATM can only magstripe)

4) ATMs at every corner

So far, most European banks (but probably this applies to all western banks) are considering the following countries as high risk (for the reasons stated above):

1) Thailand

2) Malaysia

3) South-Africa

...but...please remember that if by magic tomorrow, the three countries would move all their ATMs to Chip and PIN then the fraudster will simply move to another country that does not support chip&pin.

The fraud works pretty much this way:

1) You need to skim ATM cards of a western country (because cardholders in Ghana or Brazil will most probably have less cash on the account that a UK, French or American cardholder)

2) When you skim a card you copy the magstripe. That magstripe contains a value that identify if the card is 'chip&pin' enabled (at least in Europe). If you copy that value into a blank card and then try to withdraw the cash at an ATM in Europe ...it will be declined because the ATM knows to expect a CHIP&PIN transaction. So you need to go in a country where ATMs cannot read chip&pin

3) Let's say you go to Thailand (or Malaysia, South Africa or USA). The ATM doesn't have a CHIP reader so it is happy with the cloned magstripe...and allows you to take out the cash.

4) You go to a western union office and then wire all the cash back to your accomplices in whatever country they are (i.e. Romania).

5) Go back to point 1 and re-start until rich

Until a few years ago, these fraud were done within the country (e.g. UK cards skimmed and re-used in UK, French cards in France and so on...). However, when the UK moved o Chip & PIN the skimmers had to move to another European Country as cloned cards weren't working in UK so they first moved to Italy, Romania, Poland, France..... These countries (France, Poland, Romania, Italy) are now implementing Chip & PIN so....if you are a skimmer you need to move further away to a country where chip&pin is not implemented....

If you are a Romania citizen, you can't enter in Australia or USA without a Visa...that's why these people are going to places where it is easy to enter on a Visa on Arrival or without Visa...

If tomorrow, all thai banks (or malaysian) move to chip & pin...you will simply see a huge drop in the number of frauds (frauds will drop about 99.8%)....this is not because fraudsters stop...they will simply move to another country that doesn't have chip&pin and where there are plenty of ATMs, it is easy to enter/leave and the police doesn't have much resources.

Hope it helps....if something is not clear let me know....and I'll try to explain better.

* if you are American/Australian you will have an old magstripe card. These cards can be used within the country (e.g. you don't need to fly to Thailand to withdraw cash with a clone). However, the risks are much higher so skimmers prefer to fly to Thailand...and also...you have to consider that often the skimmer does not use the card. It will re-sell it to a third party for a fixed price.

G.

[sausageandmash]

Oh dear, we are a sensitive little bunny, aren't we. Nobody said it was Thailand's fault. Grow up!

looks like thai atm are outdated and have serious security loopholes, if information from the skimmed uk cards is send to thailand.

Yes this sounds like a Thailand's fault ... farangs stealing ATM info from other farangs then using ATMs in Thailand where they got busted.

[Nisa]

Oh dear, we are a sensitive little bunny, aren't we. Nobody said it was Thailand's fault. Grow up!

looks like thai atm are outdated and have serious security loopholes, if information from the skimmed uk cards is send to thailand.

Yes this sounds like a Thailand's fault ... farangs stealing ATM info from other farangs then using ATMs in Thailand where they got busted.

[sausageandmash]

So basically this gang got far too greedy. They should have legged it back to Romania before they got caught. Interesting to know how the hell they got caught. Seems a long shot to catch skimmers in Thailand withdrawing from UK. It was actually a good plan. It's almost a shame they got caught. Although it's a crime and I would hate to have that done to me, I almost have a sneaking admiration for this kind of craftsmanship.

Why Thailand dude? I am curious to know from these guys. Why not Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, the Philippines or where else? Is it Because the legal system is to weak? Or Thailand is a heaven for these crooks.

It's not just Thailand. This is happening in many/most countries. I've been rung by my bank and advised of suspicious activity before I knew and had a new card issued. Some Australian banks now require that a card holder travelling to a 'high risk' area, and most countries in SE Asia are on the list, notify them prior to departure and nominate a maximum amount of any transaction they anticipate. I've even had my card reissued after visiting Thailand and Vietnam. If I refused the offer, I would be responsible for future losses; easy decision.

You are correct. I worked in a fairly technical position for one of the two big payment scheme (V...) and I now work for a very large UK bank and fraud was/is one of the plague for western issuers. There are an handful of countries that are regarded as very high risk, to make it in that list you need a series of factors:

1) Easy connection (i.e. it is easy to enter/leave the country)

2) Weak (or weaker than western) legal system

3) ATMs that do not support chip & pin (e.g. the ATM can only magstripe)

4) ATMs at every corner

So far, most European banks (but probably this applies to all western banks) are considering the following countries as high risk (for the reasons stated above):

1) Thailand

2) Malaysia

3) South-Africa

...but...please remember that if by magic tomorrow, the three countries would move all their ATMs to Chip and PIN then the fraudster will simply move to another country that does not support chip&pin.

The fraud works pretty much this way:

1) You need to skim ATM cards of a western country (because cardholders in Ghana or Brazil will most probably have less cash on the account that a UK, French or American cardholder)

2) When you skim a card you copy the magstripe. That magstripe contains a value that identify if the card is 'chip&pin' enabled (at least in Europe). If you copy that value into a blank card and then try to withdraw the cash at an ATM in Europe ...it will be declined because the ATM knows to expect a CHIP&PIN transaction. So you need to go in a country where ATMs cannot read chip&pin

3) Let's say you go to Thailand (or Malaysia, South Africa or USA). The ATM doesn't have a CHIP reader so it is happy with the cloned magstripe...and allows you to take out the cash.

4) You go to a western union office and then wire all the cash back to your accomplices in whatever country they are (i.e. Romania).

5) Go back to point 1 and re-start until rich

Until a few years ago, these fraud were done within the country (e.g. UK cards skimmed and re-used in UK, French cards in France and so on...). However, when the UK moved o Chip & PIN the skimmers had to move to another European Country as cloned cards weren't working in UK so they first moved to Italy, Romania, Poland, France..... These countries (France, Poland, Romania, Italy) are now implementing Chip & PIN so....if you are a skimmer you need to move further away to a country where chip&pin is not implemented....

If you are a Romania citizen, you can't enter in Australia or USA without a Visa...that's why these people are going to places where it is easy to enter on a Visa on Arrival or without Visa...

If tomorrow, all thai banks (or malaysian) move to chip & pin...you will simply see a huge drop in the number of frauds (frauds will drop about 99.8%)....this is not because fraudsters stop...they will simply move to another country that doesn't have chip&pin and where there are plenty of ATMs, it is easy to enter/leave and the police doesn't have much resources.

Hope it helps....if something is not clear let me know....and I'll try to explain better.

* if you are American/Australian you will have an old magstripe card. These cards can be used within the country (e.g. you don't need to fly to Thailand to withdraw cash with a clone). However, the risks are much higher so skimmers prefer to fly to Thailand...and also...you have to consider that often the skimmer does not use the card. It will re-sell it to a third party for a fixed price.

G.

[cohon3s]

I think some of you missed the part where the card numbers were stolen in the UK, not Thailand.

Makes one wonder why they had to come to Thailand to use the cards,and complete the Scam, though?

Anyone have the explaination?

Like I explained earlier.

This sort of crime has been going on for years, a lot of the time stolen cards and details are moved abroad to put distance between the fraudster and the victim. The first alarm will sound in the UK or wherever and this buys a little extra time, although that time is coming down lower and lower as technology improves. But that little extra time while the authorities communicate with each other, can be the difference between getting caught and getting away.

Also, Thailand has an unusually high number of ATM machines.. they seem to be everywhere, and there are not a lot of queues waiting at them, i rarely have to wait behind someone, and dont recall many times where people are waiting for me. So it is a lot more private at an ATM than in the UK. Also less surveylance cameras around.. UK is saturated with them.

Then if they did eventually get caught, they know so long as they have 100 million baht sat safely somewhere, it is just a case of asking your lawyer to politely arrange 20 million of it to hit the correct pockets, and hey presto, you are free to go. That is something you won't be able to do in the UK. Yet it is common knowledge that money buys freedom in Thailand.

So all in all, i would think Thailand is the obviouse place to come and complete the heist.

They traveled to Thailand because many western countries banned such ATM withdrawals from credit cards without CHIP. So they weren't able to cash the stolen cards in Europe

Traiasca Romania !