Thailand Rejects Foreign Election Monitors

[samran]

I don't think the translation is accurate.

The original ThaiRath article refers a verbatim quote from Suthep:

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย อย่าเอาฝรั่งมาข่มคนไทย

This means

I don't respect western foreigners (farangs).

I don't think that western foreigners (farangs) would be better than Thai people (in overseeing the election).

Don't bring western foreigners (farang) here (into Thailand) to control Thai people.

The controversial first sentence here is concluded with ก็แล้วกัน which could be translated as "and that's that" or "if you want to put it like that". The statement is self-contained and even separated from the next sentence with a space which would not be necessary or would even be incorrect if there was any junction with the next sentence. In the second sentence Suthep may have tried to backtrack from the first, but the meaning "I don't esteemwesterners as being better than Thai people" cannot be inferred here IMHO.

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoriing them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

K.Kantana,

Rather than an alternative take, I think you are rather spot on with your assessment of the translation. To not look up to someone, does not mean you look down on them either. In diplo speak, he's saying what every other national leader would when speaking about the integrity of their institutions to do a particular job.

What I can say, rather unequivocally however, is the behaviour and the comments of most members of this thread has been utterly disgraceful.

Sad, angry bitter members who feel qualified to bless us with their barely vailed xenophobic bile, all based on a shoddy third rate tabloid translation. Says more about them than anything the deputy PM has said.

Another comment should be made as well - the TV admin who posted this I dare say knew the reaction they were going to get from posting a news article such as this, and they sure as heck got it.

As a former mod I find this this disgraceful. There is a well known forum rule which is frequently (and rightfully) invoked - no Thai bashing. To post a thread with a misleading like this (amongst others, this isn't the first) is deliberate baiting which in my opinion breaches this fundamental rule - basically cause you deliberately invite it.

So, feel free to give me a holiday, make invisible this comment and then have a tortured debate amongst yourself - I know how it works. But everyone involved in this thread, including the admin, should take a good look at themselves in the mirror.

[Buchholz]

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoriing them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

K.Kantana,

Rather than an alternative take, I think you are rather spot on with your assessment of the translation. To not look up to someone, does not mean you look down on them either. In diplo speak, he's saying what every other national leader would when speaking about the integrity of their institutions to do a particular job.

What I can say, rather unequivocally however, is the behaviour and the comments of most members of this thread has been utterly disgraceful.

Sad, angry bitter members who feel qualified to bless us with their barely veiled xenophobic bile, all based on a shoddy third rate tabloid translation.

Very Well Said

... and as I've said several times throughout this gargantuan thread.

I can only ascribe the unbelievable bashing replies are based on an attempt at:

ca·thar·sis (k-thärss)

1. Purgation.

2. A psychological technique used to relieve tension and anxiety by bringing repressed feelings and fears to consciousness.

3. The therapeutic result of this process; abreaction.

The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary

.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Buchholz

[softgeorge]

The bottom line is that you DO NOT have the right to any sort of active opinion toward Thailand. You are ALL only visitors here most of whom are reeping many benefits in the form of hiding assets, evading taxes, escaping lives in the west, satisfying sexual fantasy tours, maximizing meager retirement accounts by living in this inexpensive land of "wine", women, and song. A minority are actually here for humanitarian or other non- selfcentered reasons. So spare me this "I have rights" bull. Most of you skating through to the end of your lives in a place that makes it all easy and pleasurable for you without having to pay any dues at all. And before you bring up visa fees or bank account mandates, they are in reality a cheap fee to pay in the end analysis. 2000 baht for 3 months = $60 USD. Wow! Sorry but that does not qualify. I am talking more about dues societally. But no one would want to really get involved even if they could. Only complain like armchair quarterbacks.

Aren't farang paying their dues by paying money for everything they receive here? Do you think Thailand would be better off if they all left?

What is it that you do in Thailand?

No, actually that is not paying "dues", that is called "cost of living" and that will occur no matter where you live on this planet. If your post were applied to the full context of my post you would see that your question was answered already but I will reiterate for you. Societal dues in the form of being a citizen of this country and all that being a Thai national entails which almost all farang posters here clearly demonstrate does NOT apply to them. Even those who have been here for decades are still as foreign to this culture as the day they arrived and perhaps have even taken steps backward instead of forward in their acceptance of the fact that Thais have their own unique way of seeing the universe and still feel that it is the Thais who must change because these visiting farang don't approve. Get real Mr Foreigner Farang. If your opinion of anything Thai is contradictory to your view of Utopia, it is NOT your place to judge and certainly not denegrade the Thai people for it. YOU are the foreigner here even though you would like to believe that the universe revolves around your western view of things. Would the Thai way work for us in the west? Nope, but they are not taking to us in our homelands andin the process telling us we are stupid and brainless even though any reasonable person could pick apart any western country's economy and cutlure and quirky habits of the indigenous locals.

I sought a life life partner and found her here in Thailand. I have investments and business in the USA and teach English here as a sideline boredom breaker and small income generator. Let me know what problems you see with my life too. Love to hear your views. Even if it is really none of your business how I live my life or what I do on a daily basis or what political or moral values I hold.............. getting my drift?

You just finnished attacking opinions of other posters and how they live thier lives and then you say it is no business of anyone else in regards to your life..........

[TaxinMeter]

I don't think the translation is accurate.

The original ThaiRath article refers a verbatim quote from Suthep:

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย อย่าเอาฝรั่งมาข่มคนไทย

This means

I don't respect western foreigners (farangs).

I don't think that western foreigners (farangs) would be better than Thai people (in overseeing the election).

Don't bring western foreigners (farang) here (into Thailand) to control Thai people.

The controversial first sentence here is concluded with ก็แล้วกัน which could be translated as "and that's that" or "if you want to put it like that". The statement is self-contained and even separated from the next sentence with a space which would not be necessary or would even be incorrect if there was any junction with the next sentence. In the second sentence Suthep may have tried to backtrack from the first, but the meaning "I don't esteemwesterners as being better than Thai people" cannot be inferred here IMHO.

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoriing them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

I thinks it's a stretch to translate นับถือ as "look up to", the speaker suggesting that someone is in some sense higher than himself.

นับถือ is composed of นับ = "to count" and ถือ = "to hold", so "to hold in esteem" is probably a better translation than "respect". He could have said นับถืออย่างสูง, "I don't hold farang in very high esteem (not higher than mine etc.)" but he used the generic, unqualified term for esteem/respect.

[mikenyork]

It took a couple of days for me to come up with the proper rendering of this quote (yup, I'm not as young as I used to be--almost certainly this was an example of early onset you know what). Anyway.....

นับถือ can mean a lot of things--one of them is adherent of a particular religion. "Are you a Christian?", for example is "คุณนับถือศาสนาคริสต์หรือ(khun nap theu sasana Christ reu?)". This got me thinking that what Suthep said could be rendered "I am not a 'farang-maniac'". When Mr. Suthep said that he doesn't 'nap theu farang', it doesn't mean he hates or even lacks respect for farangs. It means he doesn't blindly worship our culture or think that we are, by definition, somehow smarter, more capable or less corrupt than Thai people. And therefore he doesn't approve of the appropriateness or the necessity of involving outsiders in Thai elections.

cf: An·glo·ma·ni·a

   [/url][ang-gluh-mey-nee-uh, -meyn-yuh] –nounan intense admiration of, interest in, or tendency to imitateEnglish institutions, manners, customs, etc.

I have to add that I completely agree with an earlier poster who noted that this seemingly endless thread says a lot more about the expat farang community here than it does about Thai culture or Thai people or even about Mr. Suthep.

[KRS1]

I wonder what the answer would be if farangs were asked if they respected Thai people...

Of course farangs must be better in every aspect.

[Pi Sek]

I don't think the translation is accurate.

The original ThaiRath article refers a verbatim quote from Suthep:

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย อย่าเอาฝรั่งมาข่มคนไทย

This means

I don't respect western foreigners (farangs).

I don't think that western foreigners (farangs) would be better than Thai people (in overseeing the election).

Don't bring western foreigners (farang) here (into Thailand) to control Thai people.

The controversial first sentence here is concluded with ก็แล้วกัน which could be translated as "and that's that" or "if you want to put it like that". The statement is self-contained and even separated from the next sentence with a space which would not be necessary or would even be incorrect if there was any junction with the next sentence. In the second sentence Suthep may have tried to backtrack from the first, but the meaning "I don't esteemwesterners as being better than Thai people" cannot be inferred here IMHO.

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoriing them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

I thinks it's a stretch to translate นับถือ as "look up to", the speaker suggesting that someone is in some sense higher than himself.

นับถือ is composed of นับ = "to count" and ถือ = "to hold", so "to hold in esteem" is probably a better translation than "respect". He could have said นับถืออย่างสูง, "I don't hold farang in very high esteem (not higher than mine etc.)" but he used the generic, unqualified term for esteem/respect.

Hey, it looks like it was a dodgy translation after all!

As to whether Suthep's comments were the result of a dodgy translation - well, he really shouldn't have used the word 'farang' as I say above. Still though, let's give him the benefit of the doubt for argument's sake and he meant to say "We don't need foreign election monitors because this is a Thai election and we don't respect outsiders coming in and making judgements on how evolved the Thais are as a race" - well, that sounds rather indignant at the suggestion that they needed one in the first place, rather than a slur on how little he respects westerners.

Nonetheless, my problem is not that he uses the word "farang" in every day life, it's that he used the word "farang" (slang) in a public answer in this incident (namely where the acceptance of "farangs" is perceived as a negative thing). If he was talking about "a lot of farang tourists this year", it probably wouldn't attract so much attention as "I don't see a need for farang mediators". However, replace "farang" with "khon dang chat" and it works fine either way.

Also, using my Latin background a little here (obviously few ties between Thai and Latin, but I would assume Indochinese-Franco trade meant that a few lingual ambiguities like this evolved the language a little), but นับถือ has a lot of meanings, doesn't it? Including revere, worship, fear? Change "respect" to any of these and it changes the statement entirely.

[geriatrickid]

Very Well Said

... and as I've said several times throughout this gargantuan thread.

I can only ascribe the unbelievable bashing replies are based on an attempt at:

ca·thar·sis (k-thärss)

1. Purgation.

2. A psychological technique used to relieve tension and anxiety by bringing repressed feelings and fears to consciousness.

3. The therapeutic result of this process; abreaction.

The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary

.

A classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. One need only peruse your long catalogue of entries on the deposed PM Thaksin to see that. You were the one that posted the image of a gorilla next to the photograph of PM Samak Sundaravej. That was one of the most vile racist posts I had seen in Thai Visa. You also ridiculed the poor man when he was dying of painful liver cancer. I believe you intimated that he was faking at the time. As such, you of all people should refrain from pointing fingers at anyone.

[Buchholz]

A classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. One need only peruse your long catalogue of entries on the deposed PM Thaksin to see that.

To see what? To say that disparaging remarks about one tyrannical despot is not the same as bashing an entire nation.

You were the one that posted the image of a gorilla next to the photograph of PM Samak Sundaravej.

No, I wasn't. If you have one, post a link to prove your accusation.

That was one of the most vile racist posts I had seen in Thai Visa.

Which makes you not providing a link, the most vile lie on Thaivisa.

You also ridiculed the poor man when he was dying of painful liver cancer. I believe you intimated that he was faking at the time. As such, you of all people should refrain from pointing fingers at anyone.

I never ridiculed anyone dying of liver cancer.

Try and get a grip or this your own form of :

ca·thar·sis (k-thärss)

1. Purgation.

2. A psychological technique used to relieve tension and anxiety by bringing repressed feelings and fears to consciousness.

3. The therapeutic result of this process; abreaction.

.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Buchholz

[geriatrickid]

I wonder what the answer would be if farangs were asked if they respected Thai people...

Of course farangs must be better in every aspect.

Cute, but no cigar. Other threads have been full of people praising Thais on topics that range from acts of kindness to a willingness to help. I can think of dozens of threads filled with gratitude for their wives, partners or friends. Yes, this thread is characterized by some pointed comments directed at the Deputy PM, but I believe that most of the people making those comments has something positive to say about Thailand and their close ones as well.

[blabla1]

Respect is a big word to live up to in any language, to be respected, one must at least show integrity,honesty,leadership,compassion,gratefulness,understanding,humbleness , responsibility for actions and words and some sort of common sense, so where the hell are we gonna find some one like that in politics anywhere,let alone Thailand!

To show respect is easy just fold your hands and bow.

[HereIAm]

It would be a mistake to start wallopping the Dy PM with an English baton for his statement as reported by media. English is not Thailand's language. And it is not known if the reporter correctly -- or rather, faithfully -- translated the Dy PM's statement. Politicians are known to put their foot in their mouth with the wrong choice of words when speaking a language that is not their mother tongue. The egregious George W Bush was a master at putting his f in his m even when speaking in his mother tongue!

As visitors have experienced, Thailand is a most hospitable place and Thais are among the most respectful people. So Suthep most likely didn't mean "respect" when he said what he is alleged to have said. That is what I would tend to believe. He probably meant he didn't "care" for a western applause. Countries located east of the west do say that when politics is at play. East is east, and West is west. Do not venture out from under your sofa, doggie !

Edited March 26, 2011 by HereIAm

[arthsch]

Suthep's comments might seem a bit harsh and inappropriate (they are!), but if you ask any Thai - who isn't an ardent red shirt - how they feel about foreign election monitors, you'll probably get a similar response!

Farangs should not intervene in politics of Thailand. Thailand went a good way without them.

I'm sure, Suthep didn't mean the tourists. They are welcome and their money is respected.

[OxfordWill]

If only you had waited until April 1st, George.

[sbk]

I don't think the translation is accurate.

The original ThaiRath article refers a verbatim quote from Suthep:

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย อย่าเอาฝรั่งมาข่มคนไทย

This means

I don't respect western foreigners (farangs).

I don't think that western foreigners (farangs) would be better than Thai people (in overseeing the election).

Don't bring western foreigners (farang) here (into Thailand) to control Thai people.

The controversial first sentence here is concluded with ก็แล้วกัน which could be translated as "and that's that" or "if you want to put it like that". The statement is self-contained and even separated from the next sentence with a space which would not be necessary or would even be incorrect if there was any junction with the next sentence. In the second sentence Suthep may have tried to backtrack from the first, but the meaning "I don't esteemwesterners as being better than Thai people" cannot be inferred here IMHO.

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoriing them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

K.Kantana,

Rather than an alternative take, I think you are rather spot on with your assessment of the translation. To not look up to someone, does not mean you look down on them either. In diplo speak, he's saying what every other national leader would when speaking about the integrity of their institutions to do a particular job.

What I can say, rather unequivocally however, is the behaviour and the comments of most members of this thread has been utterly disgraceful.

Sad, angry bitter members who feel qualified to bless us with their barely vailed xenophobic bile, all based on a shoddy third rate tabloid translation. Says more about them than anything the deputy PM has said.

Another comment should be made as well - the TV admin who posted this I dare say knew the reaction they were going to get from posting a news article such as this, and they sure as heck got it.

As a former mod I find this this disgraceful. There is a well known forum rule which is frequently (and rightfully) invoked - no Thai bashing. To post a thread with a misleading like this (amongst others, this isn't the first) is deliberate baiting which in my opinion breaches this fundamental rule - basically cause you deliberately invite it.

So, feel free to give me a holiday, make invisible this comment and then have a tortured debate amongst yourself - I know how it works. But everyone involved in this thread, including the admin, should take a good look at themselves in the mirror.

While I can understand your anger it is certainly misplaced to blame Thaivisa for a poor translation of Suthep's comments or to refuse to post a published AFP news article simply because we find the subject distasteful. We publish news unedited and to do anything else would leave us open to problems.

Instead of venting your spleen on the messenger suggest you contact AFP instead.

[vont]

I don't think the translation is accurate.

The original ThaiRath article refers a verbatim quote from Suthep:

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย อย่าเอาฝรั่งมาข่มคนไทย

This means

I don't respect western foreigners (farangs).

I don't think that western foreigners (farangs) would be better than Thai people (in overseeing the election).

Don't bring western foreigners (farang) here (into Thailand) to control Thai people.

The controversial first sentence here is concluded with ก็แล้วกัน which could be translated as "and that's that" or "if you want to put it like that". The statement is self-contained and even separated from the next sentence with a space which would not be necessary or would even be incorrect if there was any junction with the next sentence. In the second sentence Suthep may have tried to backtrack from the first, but the meaning "I don't esteemwesterners as being better than Thai people" cannot be inferred here IMHO.

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoriing them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

K.Kantana,

Rather than an alternative take, I think you are rather spot on with your assessment of the translation. To not look up to someone, does not mean you look down on them either. In diplo speak, he's saying what every other national leader would when speaking about the integrity of their institutions to do a particular job.

What I can say, rather unequivocally however, is the behaviour and the comments of most members of this thread has been utterly disgraceful.

Sad, angry bitter members who feel qualified to bless us with their barely vailed xenophobic bile, all based on a shoddy third rate tabloid translation. Says more about them than anything the deputy PM has said.

Another comment should be made as well - the TV admin who posted this I dare say knew the reaction they were going to get from posting a news article such as this, and they sure as heck got it.

As a former mod I find this this disgraceful. There is a well known forum rule which is frequently (and rightfully) invoked - no Thai bashing. To post a thread with a misleading like this (amongst others, this isn't the first) is deliberate baiting which in my opinion breaches this fundamental rule - basically cause you deliberately invite it.

So, feel free to give me a holiday, make invisible this comment and then have a tortured debate amongst yourself - I know how it works. But everyone involved in this thread, including the admin, should take a good look at themselves in the mirror.

Admire your candor, Samran.

May you live long and happily wherever you are. :jap:

[sbk]

As for complaints about offensive posts in breach of forum rules I have but two words: Report Button

And we will finish the discussion at that.

[BabaVaranasi]

Wouldn't mind having dinner with the deputy PM. I would like him to meet my family.

[missy53]

Well put

Reading some of my young Thai niece's schoolbooks it's no wonder they end up which such a twisted xenophobic view of reality. Taught (indoctrinated) from a very young age how special the Thai people are compared to everyone else.

Such a pity that such a beautiful country has such a high % of simpleminded fools populating it.

[aidon]

I must say that I am apalled at the comments posted on this forun and about this topic. As a long term resident of Thailand and a foreigner I would not deem it appropriate for me to comment on matters that concern politics or indeed the independance of a soverign nation.

I feel I am lucky to be able to live here (on the permission of the Thai Government) and it would not be suitable of me to comment on internal Thai matters as it would not be appropriate of me to comment on the internal matters of ANY other soverign nation except the nation of my citizenship.

I cannot beleive the comments that are made here by foreigners (that is non-Thai citizens) ctiticizing Thai people and institutions, my advice is that if you don't like it here leave as you have no right to try and change Thai society.

And the whingers that complain about property ownership laws in Thailand, buy property elsewhere. This is Thailand and it doesn't matter that a Thai can buy property in another country but you cannot buy here.

Get a life.

[finnomick]

"I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

the Great Suthet speaks! Abisit would be so much better off without this loose canon ball - what a diplomat! maybe a candidate for the UN Chair?

PS he forget's his boss is an British Passport Holder and his education was in the place 'he doesn't respect'

The expression is a loose cannon, but I understand your point. However, doesn't a cannon need " balls " ?

I prefer the old adage:- Better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool, than open it and remove all doubt !

[softgeorge]

What a bunch of pathetic, pretentious cry babies.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. I learned that when I was five. Apparently the education of farang is not all it's cracked up to be.

It is their country.

Yes, but some of us have been here 20 years and made it our home,speak fluent Thai, own a lot of land. My wife and I have over 5,000 rai of land. Although in her name, it is shared between us.

We have children who are Thai citizens with traces of royal blood. We employ many Thai people.

Sticks and stones etc may be something that we can strive toward but at the moment, i'm a mere mortal and get hurt when people call me names.

But your a bloody Collingwood supporter so I am sure you have been called all before.

[geriatrickid]

I must say that I am apalled at the comments posted on this forun and about this topic. As a long term resident of Thailand and a foreigner I would not deem it appropriate for me to comment on matters that concern politics or indeed the independance of a soverign nation.

I feel I am lucky to be able to live here (on the permission of the Thai Government) and it would not be suitable of me to comment on internal Thai matters as it would not be appropriate of me to comment on the internal matters of ANY other soverign nation except the nation of my citizenship.

I cannot beleive the comments that are made here by foreigners (that is non-Thai citizens) ctiticizing Thai people and institutions, my advice is that if you don't like it here leave as you have no right to try and change Thai society.

And the whingers that complain about property ownership laws in Thailand, buy property elsewhere. This is Thailand and it doesn't matter that a Thai can buy property in another country but you cannot buy here.

Get a life.

I appreciate your point about the need for respect and courtesy, however, your premise is wrong. The subject of whether or not some foreigners have a "right" to speak up has been dealt with in other threads. I believe the underlying position of some foreigners as to why they speak out is that they have invested in the country, pay taxes and have families. The fact that foreigners are discriminated against in terms of being allowed citizenship is a subject for a different thread, but I believe that longtime residents that have a stake in Thailand's stability and prosperity most certainly do have a right to express their views. Not everyone is a retiree. Perhaps if you had children here and a business you might be more sympathetic to their predicament. And this then leads to the issue of election monitoring. The presence of such monitors would bolster confidence in the electoral process. It would also respond to the very real concerns expressed in respect to electoral corruption and the interference with the right to privacy when voting. There is also a strong likelihood of violence erupting again should the integrity of the electoral process be questioned. The presence of monitors, if the election was fair, would act to prevent that from happening. The fact of the matter is that Thailand has serious deficiencies when it comes to holding a fair and honest election. One might as well deal with that and not try and excuse it or deny it.

When a senior member of the government comes right out and expresses a desire to prevent scrutiny that is a strong indicator that the person does not have confidence in the electoral process and is basically afraid. Having monitors is not a "foreign" imposition and is part of a healthy and confident electoral process. Many countries have and allow such monitors. The only countries that block the presence of outside monitors are those associated with totalitarian states. As was pointed out earlier Thailand is a member of ASEAN and the ASEAN has a provision for election monitoring. The last ASEAN country to block monitors was Myanmar - Burma. Is that really what Thailand is? Another Burma? the question you should be asking is why is the DPM afraid of ASEAN or other neutral monitors? Now you may be successfully isolated from society and may not be impacted when the locals take to the streets, but if you were a large investor, you would be concerned about having a multi billion baht investment destroyed. If you were a small hotel owner, you would be worried about the impact upon tourism if Thailand was sanctioned for another rigged election. If you were a parent you might be concerned your kids could be hurt by an angry mob out of control. If you were an exporter, you might be concerned by transportation disruptions if a general strike was held to protest an unfair election. The issue remains the DPM trying to block transparency and the question that you should be asking is why. Unless you are one of those people that is content to take advantage of a system that provides an unfair advantage to those that benefit most from voting improprieties.

[aidon]

I appreciate your point about the need for respect and courtesy, however, your premise is wrong. The subject of whether or not some foreigners have a "right" to speak up has been dealt with in other threads. I believe the underlying position of some foreigners as to why they speak out is that they have invested in the country, pay taxes and have families. The fact that foreigners are discriminated against in terms of being allowed citizenship is a subject for a different thread, but I believe that longtime residents that have a stake in Thailand's stability and prosperity most certainly do have a right to express their views. Not everyone is a retiree. Perhaps if you had children here and a business you might be more sympathetic to their predicament. And this then leads to the issue of election monitoring. The presence of such monitors would bolster confidence in the electoral process. It would also respond to the very real concerns expressed in respect to electoral corruption and the interference with the right to privacy when voting. There is also a strong likelihood of violence erupting again should the integrity of the electoral process be questioned. The presence of monitors, if the election was fair, would act to prevent that from happening. The fact of the matter is that Thailand has serious deficiencies when it comes to holding a fair and honest election. One might as well deal with that and not try and excuse it or deny it.

When a senior member of the government comes right out and expresses a desire to prevent scrutiny that is a strong indicator that the person does not have confidence in the electoral process and is basically afraid. Having monitors is not a "foreign" imposition and is part of a healthy and confident electoral process. Many countries have and allow such monitors. The only countries that block the presence of outside monitors are those associated with totalitarian states. As was pointed out earlier Thailand is a member of ASEAN and the ASEAN has a provision for election monitoring. The last ASEAN country to block monitors was Myanmar - Burma. Is that really what Thailand is? Another Burma? the question you should be asking is why is the DPM afraid of ASEAN or other neutral monitors? Now you may be successfully isolated from society and may not be impacted when the locals take to the streets, but if you were a large investor, you would be concerned about having a multi billion baht investment destroyed. If you were a small hotel owner, you would be worried about the impact upon tourism if Thailand was sanctioned for another rigged election. If you were a parent you might be concerned your kids could be hurt by an angry mob out of control. If you were an exporter, you might be concerned by transportation disruptions if a general strike was held to protest an unfair election. The issue remains the DPM trying to block transparency and the question that you should be asking is why. Unless you are one of those people that is content to take advantage of a system that provides an unfair advantage to those that benefit most from voting improprieties.

I appreciate your comments but, in the first case, I am not a retiree Quote - "they have invested in the country, pay taxes and have families." I am involved in a couple of businesses here and a couple in other Asean nation and I do have a family here.

I would be hard to find an election system, anywhere in the world, that does not benefit those in power.

[Jingthing]

I cannot beleive the comments that are made here by foreigners (that is non-Thai citizens) ctiticizing Thai people and institutions, my advice is that if you don't like it here leave as you have no right to try and change Thai society.

Believe it. How about if we like it overall, but also want to talk about the parts we don't like? Is that OK with y'all? Staying or leaving is a personal decision. I find so many, love it ALL or leave it sentiments just plain silly.

I don't know of any country on earth where I would like everything about it and if I did you wouldn't find me in Thailand (assuming they'd let me in which is on second thought doubtful).

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[WhingeingMoaners]

I really love this topic. It is very funny to see so many farangs expressing their indignation from time to time. It would be even better if the locals decided to come out and put rude, obnoxious and bitching farangs in their place more often. Mr. Suthep deserves a pat on the back for speaking his mind. I salute his audacity. He is entitled to express his opinions even though they might be deemed unsavoury. I don't see a big difference between what he said about farangs and what many farangs constantly say about the locals on this forum. At least, when he uttered the comment he did not hide behide a keyboard like many farangs frequently do on Thai Visa. He is courageous and I regret having underestimated his temerity. :jap:

[Screws]

[i don't know for sure if he does or not, but the word from my Thai colleagues is that he (Abisit) does indeed hold 2 passports, one of them being British. It's also a source of near embarassment for Thai politics and not something they openly admit, but people do know about it. I repeat however, this is information from my Thai colleagues, I can't say for certain it's true...

On Monday night at the Foreign Corresp dinner with Aphisit he stated he has two passports - neither boasting nor embarrassed about it.

[Screws]

[i don't know for sure if he does or not, but the word from my Thai colleagues is that he (Abisit) does indeed hold 2 passports, one of them being British. It's also a source of near embarassment for Thai politics and not something they openly admit, but people do know about it. I repeat however, this is information from my Thai colleagues, I can't say for certain it's true...

On Monday night at the Foreign Corresp dinner with Aphisit he stated he has two passports - neither boasting nor embarrassed about it.

But he was also adamant that he has never felt divided loyalties - always been 'Thai'.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

This statement is completely wrong. I don't want my kids growing up thinking this is ever acceptable. This should not be coming from the mouth of a 'so-called' educated man in such power.

I still think this has been taken out of context. But just in case it hasn't, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it wasn't, these are my feelings.

Whilst it looks like he might have been playing up to the xenophobe majority of 90% (+/-3%), which is less-than-admirable for a Deputy PM, you have to sympathise with his overall sentiment. The ludicrous prospect of sending European / US election monitors at this point in time...it would raise the bar on farcical to a whole, new level.

"Right, we need to keep an eye on your election, make sure it's on the up and up, whilst we launch unprovoked bombing campaigns on this domestically-popular eccentric over here..."

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

Yeah, they generally have sharp agendas which have nothing to do with their badges.

[61guitarman61]

The bottom line is that you DO NOT have the right to any sort of active opinion toward Thailand. You are ALL only visitors here most of whom are reeping many benefits in the form of hiding assets, evading taxes, escaping lives in the west, satisfying sexual fantasy tours, maximizing meager retirement accounts by living in this inexpensive land of "wine", women, and song. A minority are actually here for humanitarian or other non- selfcentered reasons. So spare me this "I have rights" bull. Most of you skating through to the end of your lives in a place that makes it all easy and pleasurable for you without having to pay any dues at all. And before you bring up visa fees or bank account mandates, they are in reality a cheap fee to pay in the end analysis. 2000 baht for 3 months = $60 USD. Wow! Sorry but that does not qualify. I am talking more about dues societally. But no one would want to really get involved even if they could. Only complain like armchair quarterbacks.

Aren't farang paying their dues by paying money for everything they receive here? Do you think Thailand would be better off if they all left?

What is it that you do in Thailand?

No, actually that is not paying "dues", that is called "cost of living" and that will occur no matter where you live on this planet. If your post were applied to the full context of my post you would see that your question was answered already but I will reiterate for you. Societal dues in the form of being a citizen of this country and all that being a Thai national entails which almost all farang posters here clearly demonstrate does NOT apply to them. Even those who have been here for decades are still as foreign to this culture as the day they arrived and perhaps have even taken steps backward instead of forward in their acceptance of the fact that Thais have their own unique way of seeing the universe and still feel that it is the Thais who must change because these visiting farang don't approve. Get real Mr Foreigner Farang. If your opinion of anything Thai is contradictory to your view of Utopia, it is NOT your place to judge and certainly not denegrade the Thai people for it. YOU are the foreigner here even though you would like to believe that the universe revolves around your western view of things. Would the Thai way work for us in the west? Nope, but they are not taking to us in our homelands andin the process telling us we are stupid and brainless even though any reasonable person could pick apart any western country's economy and cutlure and quirky habits of the indigenous locals.

I sought a life life partner and found her here in Thailand. I have investments and business in the USA and teach English here as a sideline boredom breaker and small income generator. Let me know what problems you see with my life too. Love to hear your views. Even if it is really none of your business how I live my life or what I do on a daily basis or what political or moral values I hold.............. getting my drift?

You just finnished attacking opinions of other posters and how they live thier lives and then you say it is no business of anyone else in regards to your life..........

I see you did NOT get my drift after all. My totally sarcastic point was that you really have no more business bringing absurdly abusive and racist opinions about the Thais than any one of you would want with regard to your own life choices and values by another person or group of people if in the same derisive nature. The posts to which I refer are obvious and do not need singling out. And those "opinions" should never be spoken or heard by anyone. Negative small-minded drivel.