Why Do You Even Drink?

[Puccini]

Google translation (adapted)

LAZY AND CHEEKY

Pattaya pensioner wants social security to pay for his gardener

PATTAYA CITY - A Swiss pensioner in Thailand applied for social security benefits. After all, he must pay his gardener -- and presents to the neighbours!

Updated 28 March 2011 at 12:15

The 66-year-old man has been living in Thailand since 1991. In Pattaya City, he shares a house with a Thai partner and her nephew.

His monthly old-age pension amounts to CHF 1,150 per month. But this is not enough for the man. In 2008 he requested welfare payments for Swiss living abroad -- ie for social security benefits.

But the pensioner is employing a gardener! His wages must be paid, he argues, as part of essential costs.

A "certain" status

Moreover, he claims that "special circumstances" apply to him as a Swiss citizen in Thailand. As a "person with a higher social status" he has a certain role to play due to "cultural aspects". His social status demands, for example, that he shoulder certain costs in the neighbourhood.

The Federal Department of Justice decided in 2009 that his old-age pension was more than sufficient to cover the necessary expenses. The pensioner appealed the decision to the Federal Administrative Court -- and this has now been rejected.

Only necessary expenses

The judges in Bern point out in their decision published today that for an entitlement to social security benefits, not the desirable but only the necessary expenses are relevant. The aim is to enable Swiss expatriates in need to lead a simple, adequate way of life in accordance with the local standard of living.

Expenses that somebody feels he must incur because of his social status cannot be passed on to social security. Based on the household budget correctly drawn up by the Federal Department of Justice his money is considered to be enough. (SDA / num)

Source (in German language): http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/er-will-seinen-gaertner-mit-sozialhilfe-bezahlen-169465

Full text of court decision, in German language: http://www.bvger.ch/publiws/download?decisionId=fb1a2894-ef8e-414d-b501-500276216885

[Puccini]

The above story has been widely published on the web in German language but I could not find anything yet in English, for which reason I posted a Google translation. Unfortunately, the pensioner's name is not given, otherwise a Pattaya paper could interview him to talk about the injustice he has suffered at the hands of Swiss courts

[Ulysses G.]

Is itt possible that that his gardener is bilingual and gives him stock market tips and that he has a very expensive home?

[krading]

If he can yodel that would make him tri-linguaul and therefore worth the extra money.

[BIGTOE3]

At least his Government has some common sense.

BT

[LennyW]

He should have moved to the UK

[Darrel]

Hmm. He should have applied for assistance with his (medical) massage bills.

[swissie]

Wait a minute !

Since he is living with his G/F for over 2 years, this would be considered by swiss-law as a "Konkubinat-Situation". Ergo = Same as married !

He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider a income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

Cheers.

[challenger99]

Such a Swiss citizen is a shame for all serious Swiss citizens living in Thailand or aborad.

First at all it seem during the 10 years he live in Thailand he toke profit of the "insurance for invalide" and now enter since 1 year in the "social insurance for retired". Would he claim during invalitity he would risk a new expertise on his health and in the negative case less or no more money.

He seem to be a "parasite of social insurances" which only profit and don't like pay his insurance during his working life!!!

Each serious Swiss citizen would reach near double pension ...... let's say over 2000 CHF monthly.

He shall go live deep in the Isan where life costs are lower and employ his nephew as gardener and have no Internet to not charge the Federal Department of Justice which certain is paid from the taxes of the brave Swiss citizen.

[challenger99]

Wait a minute !

Since he is living with his G/F for over 2 years, this would be considered by swiss-law as a "Konkubinat-Situation". Ergo = Same as married !

He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider a income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

Cheers.

Hello Swissie, is it the duty of swiss security insurance to finance a life aborad to a guy which was not willing to pay his insurance (maybe while selfemployed) as others during 45 years? I think each Swiss if he contributed to the insurances as she is construct could reach lose double pension as this guy who claim? May he spoiled already his BVG to buy a house on the name of his G/F? Okay not our beer and what mean "that he shoulder certain costs in the neighbourhood" ....? I guess he like be on the role of a ATM for his neighbourhood which certain mean a part of the family of his G/F. Such behavior push any insurance in the bankrupt !!!

[thaibear1]

Wait a minute !

Since he is living with his G/F for over 2 years, this would be considered by swiss-law as a "Konkubinat-Situation". Ergo = Same as married !

He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider a income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

This isn't the way, Swiss government / insurance have no any obligation to finance any destination of dream of his citizens ...!

eg. Philippines ask 800 $, Indonesia 1500 $ monthly some Asean countries even no fix income! Malaysia 3200 $ etc. or let him go in a country of Balkan where life many with IV or AHV as the King in France !!! But Thailand is a dream destination for many but a dream have to be financed by our own possibilities!

Cheers.

[swissie]

Wait a minute !

Since he is living with his G/F for over 2 years, this would be considered by swiss-law as a "Konkubinat-Situation". Ergo = Same as married !

He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider a income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

This isn't the way, Swiss government / insurance have no any obligation to finance any destination of dream of his citizens ...!

eg. Philippines ask 800 $, Indonesia 1500 $ monthly some Asean countries even no fix income! Malaysia 3200 $ etc. or let him go in a country of Balkan where life many with IV or AHV as the King in France !!! But Thailand is a dream destination for many but a dream have to be financed by our own possibilities!

Cheers.

So far, the comments are missing my point: It is not a question of what is "a discrace" to ask something from the Swiss-Social-Security-System or what is not "a discrace". The point and please read again:

"He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider an income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

So therefore and again: What should in situations like this be the measuring- stick?

a) The guidelines issued by Thai-Immigration, or:

what a distant Swiss-Court (with the input of the CH-Embassy in BKK) thinks is "sufficient". It's a fundamental question and isen't focused only on "can the swiss-governement pay for my gardener" !!!! Needless to say, that the "evaluators" at the Swiss-Embassy earn a multiple of 35'000 BHT !

- Pls comment about the basic question and disregard the "Gardener-Syndrome".

Cheers.

[thaibear1]

Wait a minute !

Since he is living with his G/F for over 2 years, this would be considered by swiss-law as a "Konkubinat-Situation". Ergo = Same as married !

He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider a income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

This isn't the way, Swiss government / insurance have no any obligation to finance any destination of dream of his citizens ...!

eg. Philippines ask 800 $, Indonesia 1500 $ monthly some Asean countries even no fix income! Malaysia 3200 $ etc. or let him go in a country of Balkan where life many with IV or AHV as the King in France !!! But Thailand is a dream destination for many but a dream have to be financed by our own possibilities!

Cheers.

So far, the comments are missing my point: It is not a question of what is "a discrace" to ask something from the Swiss-Social-Security-System or what is not "a discrace". The point and please read again:

"He receives only around 35'000 Bht per month, but Thai-Immigration asks for an income of 40'000 Bht per month for a couple (at least to qualify for a "O"-Visa). This means that the Thais consider an income of 40'000 Bht as a minimum for a Farang/Thai couple. The Swiss-Court finds the 35'000 Bht as "sufficient".

Maybe the plaintif should have operated with those figures in front of the court, and forget about the "Gardeners-Pay" angle.

I firmly believe, that what the THAIS consider "sufficient" should be the measuring-stick in situations like this, and not what the Swiss-Embassy in Bangkok or a distant court in Switzerland considers "sufficient" !!!

So therefore and again: What should in situations like this be the measuring- stick?

a) The guidelines issued by Thai-Immigration, or:

what a distant Swiss-Court (with the input of the CH-Embassy in BKK) thinks is "sufficient". It's a fundamental question and isen't focused only on "can the swiss-governement pay for my gardener" !!!! Needless to say, that the "evaluators" at the Swiss-Embassy earn a multiple of 35'000 BHT !

- Pls comment about the basic question and disregard the "Gardener-Syndrome".

Cheers.

I think the question by the immigration have 40'000 per month have other reason!!! Single have to have 65'000 per month .... so single shall also claim by the Swiss social insurance??? Simple the immigration know how Farang are faked by prices here, is it he have a Thai G/F she will shopping and reach Thai prices in the market and eg. rent a house. Using this as single I rent a very beautiful house, 120 m2 3 bed/bath room, big living and big kittchen and garden for only 10'000 Bath, it seem this "poor retired" with 20'000 live in a more then luxery villa?

Swissie I understand what you mean (myself I also live here with AHV) but it can't happen that Swiss social insurance finance our lifestyle (general not only Thailand) aborad. If we come home certain with EL it cost Swiss gov. more but we spend our income also in Switzerland. I would too live in an other country then Thailand but because my pension don't aloow an other country I am here and for the circumstances satisfied; some others aren't never!