Chiang Mai International School

[Gonzo the Face]

I had the opportunity yesterday to have a somewhat lengthy conversation with a parent of a CMIS student.

I was told that part of the new years school fees would be an amount to be credited to the building of a new school a bit out of the city.

I did question if I understood correctly the fact that they were charging parents this fee for the coming year when the school construction has not yet begun and couldn't possible be completed for a year or more, and this parents child would have completed their CMIS years and have graduated , and not be going to the new school.

I was told , yes this was the case.

If that is the case, then no wonder some parents are upset.

Are there any other parents of CMIS students out there that have heard this or know about this fee, which I would think unreasonable?

To me it sounds like someone or someones have been bitten by the greedy bug.

[PlanetX]

I had the opportunity yesterday to have a somewhat lengthy conversation with a parent of a CMIS student.

I was told that part of the new years school fees would be an amount to be credited to the building of a new school a bit out of the city.

I did question if I understood correctly the fact that they were charging parents this fee for the coming year when the school construction has not yet begun and couldn't possible be completed for a year or more, and this parents child would have completed their CMIS years and have graduated , and not be going to the new school.

I was told , yes this was the case.

If that is the case, then no wonder some parents are upset.

Are there any other parents of CMIS students out there that have heard this or know about this fee, which I would think unreasonable?

To me it sounds like someone or someones have been bitten by the greedy bug.

I think its a fallacy to think that all your "fees" go directly to your childs education.

I can definitely see your point but I think most parents understand that they are investing in the school community and some percentage of their fees will probably be used in ways that do not directly impact a specific student

[slapout]

Most parents are aware of benefits cost which are beyond their children's education cost. But when one group of parents are asked to pay half of what the majority (non missionary) for a building or what some call, a line of credit fund then you can expect some dissension, within what people call the school community.

I was talking to a parent from Grace International school last week. She pointed out that Grace had purchased land for a new campus and was in the process of raising funds for construction of facilities (not from the parents of students) (old forum topic) She also noted that tuition was less than CMIS when we compared fees.

When the building cost which CMIS proposes to borrow, are presently in the Church of Christ Thailand, bank account (300 million baht bandied around for the new school) and they will loan said sum to build the new school. A favorable interest rate was mentioned. It really brings into question the claims of churches to be non profit organizations. I guess the Church administrators and possibly their supreme deity know what the true account balance is.

[zippydedodah]

I had the opportunity yesterday to have a somewhat lengthy conversation with a parent of a CMIS student.

I was told that part of the new years school fees would be an amount to be credited to the building of a new school a bit out of the city.

I did question if I understood correctly the fact that they were charging parents this fee for the coming year when the school construction has not yet begun and couldn't possible be completed for a year or more, and this parents child would have completed their CMIS years and have graduated , and not be going to the new school.

I was told , yes this was the case.

If that is the case, then no wonder some parents are upset.

Are there any other parents of CMIS students out there that have heard this or know about this fee, which I would think unreasonable?

To me it sounds like someone or someones have been bitten by the greedy bug.

Parents were advised, via emails, that the capitol improvements fee would not be imposed next year and tuitions would be the same as previously laid out (about 18% increase for returning students, more for new students).

There was a meeting last week at the school, which i did not attend, but i have not heard anyone say that tuition for next year would change and/or contain "hidden" capitol improvement fees.

Minutes from last week meeting will soon be available online (almost all minutes of meetings involving parents are online at CMIS website) and i will be able to see who said what. I had a brief conversation with the principal the day after the meeting and he did not indicate any changes in cost of education (yet).

I am sure, as the project moves forward (and i do expect it to move forward) that the school will recoup the cost via fee increases of one kind or another. To think otherwise is silly (IMHO).

It is the price of doing business and as parents we always have other choices available in CM.

If you like the school, like the education the child is getting, pay and stay... if you don't... find yourself a reasonable alternative.

I live on a very modest pension and to pay increased fees will not be easy.... but i will make my choices and do the best for my kid.

[slapout]

The post that mentioned that CMIS, has in the past, been promoted as a "close school community" is spot on. what I find ironic that the the thinking/phrase "if you do not like/agree with it move on". I have heard the latter from CMIS administration, the Principal, Chairman, and Board members. The two philosophies would appear to contradict each other, within a so called Christian atmosphere. Especially when you take into account that those who have invested time, volunteer coaches/teachers, transport of students, fund raising, etc were probably more in tune with the former slogan. The parents of students have paid for air conditioning (direct fee), a new indoor sports facility with additional classrooms (completed 3+ years ago) and various other projects for present and future students. Most have a real concern for th education of present and future generations.

A survey of present parents by CMIS toward possible options, add to present campus, real cost of proposed new campus, and the proposed generation of fees to pay for each option, etc has been requested several months ago. A breakdown of school expenses were also requested. Neither has been forthcoming. There are parents who have experience in banking, construction, business expense/income, etc. To date these people have not been invited to make input in a formal manner. Instead the school has spent fairly large sums to send inexperienced personal on trips, to visit, look at facilities, out of Thailand.

There are International school campuses right here in the CM area. who have been built from scratch, leased avaliable facilities and a combo of both. Some are financially stable and some appear to be having problems. Any business that has administration/management who are not on friendly enough terms to pick the brain/visit with competitors needs to look at the internal shortcomings instead of trying to train inexperience personal with patrons money.

Having attended several CMIS presentations and a parent input/question meeting, I have listened to 3 different presentations by individuals who do not have access to information/questions brought up by parents. Even the board members who have agreed to this multimillion baht expenditure/venture did not have answers to very pertinent questions, and they were casting votes for the proposed facility. I am reminded of the card games where the house has a dealer and 2 or 3 shills at the table.

I have listened to the reports of what parents, students, teachers, etc want at the proposed campus. They range from swimming pool, tennis courts, football/basketball courts, (notice the plural) and the possible suggestion of a Starbucks. In the apparent, I want/need/desire thinking of so much of our world/country attitude, I have been most disappointed in the complete lack of mention in the proposed campus of "what the finished product will do to help the environment for the future population and not just the small student body"

[Dante99]

It seems that in Chiang Mai, there are problems with school administrators/administration. In the past 6 months I have heard of four schools significant administrative problems. Can anyone with some years experience really and broadly recommend a school administration currently functioning in CM?

Slapout makes some valid points but I doubt there is a non-public school that openly provides financial details to parents. Please do let me know if this is incorrect.

[zippydedodah]

I agree and Slapout does make some very good points... but i would have to add, there is a difference between what I would call the school administration and the school board. As far as i can tell, there is also a fair bit of mis-directed anger at the administration, when the admin is given the marching orders by the board.

If i were going to get on my horse and start tilting at windmills, it would be the board first. I have even heard a rumor that one of the findings from the recent WASC visit, is that the board needs to learn how to "board" better... the board has had a fairly easy time of it, apparently, for quite awhile and now that a lot of change and controversy is on their plate, they are floundering like a bad canoe stuck in a lot of white water rapids.

[slapout]

Dante; the parent request for a breakdown of expenses was the result of 3 consecutive years of tuition increases (25+%) with seemly little going to the solving rank and file teacher pay, curriculum upgrade, etc, which we had earlier been told it was destined for. We were told by the present principle that 80% of CMIS income was going for salaries. This brought about further questions concerning budgets, income/expenses, Disparity in tuition charges, the addition of preschool for teachers children, various school paid trips for teachers (not field of study related), additional vehicles, additional personnel, etc, as you can imagine.

Zippy; There are a multitude of boards within the Church of Christ Thailand, CMIS, and the various entities controlled by the church. To be blunt it would appear most board members are there as a result of the CCT and their representatives/employees recommendation, they are employees of CMIS or are parents whose children pay a reduced rate for all proposed school fees. The board members who are parent representatives are in the minority, thus can be either out voted or ignored (my earlier reference to a card game). In personally visiting with some of them, they informed me that they had brought up questions on several topics, in early planning discussions but got no satisfaction. When the majority of any decision making group is appointed by the ADMINISTRATION of any organization/company, I question pointing a finger at those board members who were trusting of some peoples summation/presentation of his take on other people and/or proposals which may benefit themselves or those close to them. Granted the "Board" has/had virtually no experience in many of the problems/decisions which have come to the forefront. It is also very apparent that people management is not a forte of some of the CMIS management nor is new campus budgeting/construction/planning and the introduction of same to those who are being asked to pay for it.

If you want the salary, perks, etc of being management, then as H. Truman so eloquently put it "the buck stops here"

[Bubbalicious]

Dante; the parent request for a breakdown of expenses was the result of 3 consecutive years of tuition increases (25+%) with seemly little going to the solving rank and file teacher pay, curriculum upgrade, etc, which we had earlier been told it was destined for. We were told by the present principle that 80% of CMIS income was going for salaries. This brought about further questions concerning budgets, income/expenses, Disparity in tuition charges, the addition of preschool for teachers children, various school paid trips for teachers (not field of study related), additional vehicles, additional personnel, etc, as you can imagine.

Zippy; There are a multitude of boards within the Church of Christ Thailand, CMIS, and the various entities controlled by the church. To be blunt it would appear most board members are there as a result of the CCT and their representatives/employees recommendation, they are employees of CMIS or are parents whose children pay a reduced rate for all proposed school fees. The board members who are parent representatives are in the minority, thus can be either out voted or ignored (my earlier reference to a card game). In personally visiting with some of them, they informed me that they had brought up questions on several topics, in early planning discussions but got no satisfaction. When the majority of any decision making group is appointed by the ADMINISTRATION of any organization/company, I question pointing a finger at those board members who were trusting of some peoples summation/presentation of his take on other people and/or proposals which may benefit themselves or those close to them. Granted the "Board" has/had virtually no experience in many of the problems/decisions which have come to the forefront. It is also very apparent that people management is not a forte of some of the CMIS management nor is new campus budgeting/construction/planning and the introduction of same to those who are being asked to pay for it.

If you want the salary, perks, etc of being management, then as H. Truman so eloquently put it "the buck stops here"

This has been an interesting thread. There were a lot of comments I wanted to reply to as I was reading but I waited till the end to jump in.

First, I wonder if anyone can name any organizations (of any significant size) in the country that they would consider as models of transparency?

Second, has anyone had any comparative experience with any graduates of the local International or other private schools?

As for myself, I haven't seen too many transparent organizations here.

Most decisions in organizations here seem to drift to the very top leader for final arbitration. In this case that would be the CCT. And in the pecking order of the CCT - with CMIS, PRC, Payap, and the CCT itself all seeming to be involved in one way or another here - I'd say that CMIS falls to the bottom of the pecking order . So, as for board members or admin at CMIS (who from the website both seem to be made up of mostly farang) lacking information, that isn't entirely surprising since they seem to be taking their orders (and meeting scripts) from the people above them that are making/influencing the decisions. It is what it is.....which perhaps explains the take it or leave it attitude (I myself am relocating from the LOS in part due to this attitude....)

I had heard a month ago about the building of a new campus within the Payap facilities and took it as a done deal. I don't really have any first hand experience with CMIS myself, but I have known a few CMIS students (along with several from Lanna, Grace, NIS, and Prem) and I'd have to say the ones from CMIS seemed to have gotten a fairly good education (though I admit my sample size is fairly small) and would rate them on a level with Prem (I must say that I am really not too high on the students I've seen come out of NIS - though some of the teachers there are friends of mine - and I've known some from NIS whose English at the end of their H.S. graduation wasn't good enough to get a sufficient TOEFL score to get into an English speaking university).

As for the financing of the new school, I know there are a variety of financing/grant options for such schools but, even with church backing, CMIS would have to carry their own weight on repayment, etc. And from what I've heard the cost of building materials has risen quite rapidly in the past few years (along with nearly everything else it seems).

Some other things that caught my eye:

I'd also say the 70k guess on salary is quite high (though perhaps the longer tenured/higher qualified teachers can reach that level)

As for health insurance, private schools generally don't seem to be in the social security system. I believe this due to the original design in the social security system though I think later changes may have given the schools themselves the option of joining (somewhat similar to how the Thai gov't employees and private sector employees had different social benefit schemes). From friends I know that some private schools in town provide very little in the way of health ins. cover.

And from what I have heard and read the missionary dual pricing standard is a fairly common practice in Christian schools around the world. If these missionaries are working within a CCT org. then that would be a fairly standard employee benefit perk (something that employees working for private educ. orgs typically get anywhere - at my univ. in the states employees' kids got 100% free tuition). But, knowing several missionaries in town I know that most of them are self-funded (through individual churches or denominations) and not in any way affiliated with CCT. And FWIW, teachers at NIS get 100% tuition free schooling for their kids (which is one of the main attractions for my friends who work there) - and I imagine that this is the case at the other Intl and private schools in town (again, a fairly standard practice). I'm fairly sure that charging missionary parents the same rate would price many of them out of CMIS and drive them into home schooling (which many of them are already doing BTW).

However, it does appear that the management/communication at CMIS could use some improvement. It sounds like they have had a fairly easy set up there for a while, with not too many big decisions to make, but now are having to make some serious and far reaching decisions that they haven't had much experience making. I might also add that the recession (esp. in the U.S.) likely has caused a decline in whatever support they have gotten from outside sources (including perhaps some 'free' teachers/staff they may have used in previous years who were self-funded missionaries or missionary spouses/volunteers, etc).

I look forward to continued developments in this drama (one of several education dramas we've had this year....and every year it seems)