Time For Action

[BangTaoBoy]

erm, no, I don't think so. You are generalising quite a lot. I believe this problem is just the tuk-tuk situation in Phuket, rather than Thailand as a whole.

TBH I think your whole post is a string of generalisations and it is difficult to know where to start replying to it

I guess I could try...

1. A further reduction in numbers would have an affect, you do not need every tourist to boycott Thailand and every ex-pat to move away. Generalisation number 1.

2. Nobody is saying Thailand as a whole is that bad, they are saying that the tuk-tuk situation in particular is bad and due to the way it works, it would be difficult for anyone to do anything about it.

3. Ferangs that live in Phuket obviously choose to not let it worry them so much or at least have priorities, that doesn't mean it is good.

4. Why would this website not exist? Are you saying that if Thailand had a corrupt legal system and a government that was riddled with bribery and corruption at every level, then there wouldn't be any ex-pats living here?

5. Advertisers don't have morals, they have targets. Where there is traffic, there is exposure.

By the way. I, personally, was not commenting on the situation in Thailand as a whole. Personally I have (possibly misguided) faith in the morality of certain members of the governement and that is why I made the suggestion above. You need to understand that one voice is not enough to command the attention of a government, but 1 headline in the right place, might, hence my point.

The best way to understand the situation, is to have been reading this forum for the last five years. These events are reported periodically, and have been for as long as I've been reading this forum.

The same string of threads pop up each and every time. 'Things must be done', 'This will be the end of Phukets Tourism', 'No one will come to Phuket any more', 'It's time for action' etc etc.

In less than a month, this latest event will be a distant memory, and so will this thread. Things will continue the way they are, or if they change, it will be because the powers that be, wanted them to. And why would they?

The bad press has little, to absolutely no effect on Phukets tourism. The reason for this, I believe, is because the vast majority of tourists, don't actually have any issues with the Tuk Tuks. The vast majority use them, problem free, and are even happy with the prices they are paying. It always seems to me, the only people that have the problems are expats that live here. To them I say, get used to it, cos change aint coming any time soon.

[LivinginKata]

The same string of threads pop up each and every time. 'Things must be done', 'This will be the end of Phukets Tourism', 'No one will come to Phuket any more', 'It's time for action' etc etc.

In less than a month, this latest event will be a distant memory, and so will this thread. Things will continue the way they are, or if they change, it will be because the powers that be, wanted them to. And why would they?

So so true BTB, have to agree with you, sadly.

[TehBen]

The same string of threads pop up each and every time. 'Things must be done', 'This will be the end of Phukets Tourism', 'No one will come to Phuket any more', 'It's time for action' etc etc.

In less than a month, this latest event will be a distant memory, and so will this thread. Things will continue the way they are, or if they change, it will be because the powers that be, wanted them to. And why would they?

So so true BTB, have to agree with you, sadly.

Which is actually my point.

If you really want change, you need to do something that will demand attention from the 'powers that be' as you call it.

The only way to grab the attention of a government is to internationally highlight their poor control of a particular situation.

Granted, this may or may not work, in fact unless the initiator has any pull themselves, it probably won't. But my point is that if the OP really wants to do something about it, parking a car in front of a tuk tuk, or getting a few signatures from small restaurants and t-shirt shops is going to do nothing at all.

So in a way, even though you quoted my post but replied to none of it, we are almost saying the same thing.

Though tbh unless this situation is affecting all Phuket tourists, which it isn't (or at least the vast majority don't mind), then nobody in the international press is going to give a rat's arse about it to be frank.

Edited April 7, 2011 by benavenell

[stevenl]

But who wants change? The tourists are happy with the services, thais don't need tuktuks for several reasons, and expats are just moaning about it but don't really care, they have all their own transportation.

[jocko]

Well done for some very good posts on this subject and you can see the frustration of ex pats who live here and others who know Phuket well about this problem and i am one of them , and i am very happy to tell you i don't have to take a tuk tuk anywhere and of course many of you will be the same but as we can all see Phuket has many new tourists from eastern Europe and Asia who maybe only come here once or twice and jumping into a tuk tuk is all part of the fun rip of or not so i feel the tuk tuk will always have willing customers and as long as they are making money i cant see any changes in the near future

I still believe we should have a rant and a rave about these problems and as many have said on this forum the good outweigh's the bad so keep up the good work you never no.

[KarenBravo]

If there was a cheap, reliable public transport system, or, even dial-up cabs, I wouldn't have to go on my nights out on the motor-cy.

[BangTaoBoy]

Which is actually my point.

If you really want change, you need to do something that will demand attention from the 'powers that be' as you call it.

The only way to grab the attention of a government is to internationally highlight their poor control of a particular situation.

Granted, this may or may not work, in fact unless the initiator has any pull themselves, it probably won't. But my point is that if the OP really wants to do something about it, parking a car in front of a tuk tuk, or getting a few signatures from small restaurants and t-shirt shops is going to do nothing at all.

So in a way, even though you quoted my post but replied to none of it, we are almost saying the same thing.

Though tbh unless this situation is affecting all Phuket tourists, which it isn't (or at least the vast majority don't mind), then nobody in the international press is going to give a rat's arse about it to be frank.

Sorry if I quoting your post was inappropriate. I was agreeing with 'MrsMills' who you were disagreeing with. I assumed, that by default, that meant I disagreed with you??

I am very pleasently surprised by the posts in this thread. A couple of years ago, it would have been a different kettle of fish. Threads used to go tens of pages, and were full of people spitting blood and getting emotional beyond belief.

It would seem as if a few more people have given up worrying about a problem, which lets face it, was hardly worth worrying about. Most of the people who got the most wound up, weren't people, who were actually afected by it personally anyway. It seemed as if it was just people, desperate to have a cause to fight.

We all know the situation isn't perfect. But most of us don't let it ever ruin our day. Which it seems a lot of people used to do, judging by the posts on here.

[BangTaoBoy]

But who wants change? The tourists are happy with the services, thais don't need tuktuks for several reasons, and expats are just moaning about it but don't really care, they have all their own transportation.

That pretty much sums it up, right there!

If there was a cheap, reliable public transport system, or, even dial-up cabs, I wouldn't have to go on my nights out on the motor-cy.

You don't have to go out on your scooter. You can just factor the price of a taxi in to your night out. If you go out in Patong, you're almost paying western prices for food and drinks anyway, due to it being the main tourist town on a touristy island. So it's not that huge a leap to expect to pay, nearly western prices for a taxi home from such a place. And if it's not Patong you're out in, as a long term expat, you are more than capable of aranging a private taxi with a friend or neighbour. (You can do that in Patong as well obviously, just need to be a bit more subtle where you get picked up from)

Partying in the most touristy part, of a country famous for tourism, comes at a price. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[ScubaBuddha]

Suggestion: Compose a well written "form letter" written in English and translated into Thai addressing this issue. Here's the problem, what's been done, here's some better solutions, please solve this. Make sure you have a space at the bottom for signature and address. Circulate it among business's and post it on the Internet so people can print it out. Then they can either mail it, fax it, or attach it to an Email, however they want to do it.. You might even create and include an address where signed copies can be sent as a central collection point. Go from there.

Yeah I was going to write a form letter but ran out of time. Plus I was worried about running afoul of Thaivisa's policy on lobbying. I will write up something later today. Its important that people also share their personal experiences if they have any in their letter. That will have a greater impact.

Edited April 7, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[BangTaoBoy]

Suggestion: Compose a well written "form letter" written in English and translated into Thai addressing this issue. Here's the problem, what's been done, here's some better solutions, please solve this. Make sure you have a space at the bottom for signature and address. Circulate it among business's and post it on the Internet so people can print it out. Then they can either mail it, fax it, or attach it to an Email, however they want to do it.. You might even create and include an address where signed copies can be sent as a central collection point. Go from there.

Yeah I was going to write a form letter but ran out of time. Plus I was worried about running afoul of Thaivisa's policy on lobbying. I will write up something later today. Its important that people also share their personal experiences if they have any in their letter. That will have a greater impact.

All that, is assuming that there are enough people out there who care enough, to print off , sign, and post a letter. I honestly don't think there is.

'SB'. I thought you'd realised that fighting was futile?? Did I missunderstand your post?

Edited April 7, 2011 by BangTaoBoy

[ScubaBuddha]

I wouldn't think that any individual "coordinator" will last very long... a very dangerous position.

There was a case a few years back where a baht bus was set up between Karon and Patong, one day the bus was stopped half way between the two towns, the driver dragged out of the bus and beaten to death on the road but Tuk Tuk drivers... apparently the concession for that route is still open and available and strangely enough no-one seems to want to take it.

I also know (through friends, admittedly) that the police wont touch the Tuk Tuk guys, the police are basically scared of them.

Its a great idea you have, and very noble and worthwhile, i wish you all the very best with it. Just keep your head low and watch your back, once you start this you may well become the next victim.

Read 'ScubaBudaha's post, it was very informative, and covered everything you just did. Except, he seems to think the driver was just beaten, not killed, and I believe he is right.

It's exagerations like that, that make the problem worse. The situation is bad, but lets not exagerate and imply it's worse than it is. The same can be said, when people assume (wrongly) that every Tuk Tuk driver is a bad person. That simply isn't true. My father in Law is a lovely bloke .

I actually provided a link to the quote from the Phuket land transport department Deputy Director that said he was beaten. Could have been killed too I suppose, but he doesn't say that.

[ScubaBuddha]

A few things that i have learned after 26 years here

#7 Avoid Patong between 5 and 7 if at all possible.

add ur own :jap:

#7 Avoid Patong.

[ScubaBuddha]

Suggestion: Compose a well written "form letter" written in English and translated into Thai addressing this issue. Here's the problem, what's been done, here's some better solutions, please solve this. Make sure you have a space at the bottom for signature and address. Circulate it among business's and post it on the Internet so people can print it out. Then they can either mail it, fax it, or attach it to an Email, however they want to do it.. You might even create and include an address where signed copies can be sent as a central collection point. Go from there.

Yeah I was going to write a form letter but ran out of time. Plus I was worried about running afoul of Thaivisa's policy on lobbying. I will write up something later today. Its important that people also share their personal experiences if they have any in their letter. That will have a greater impact.

All that, is assuming that there are enough people out there who care enough, to print off , sign, and post a letter. I honestly don't think there is.

'SB'. I thought you'd realised that fighting was futile?? Did I missunderstand your post?

Not futile, just very very difficult once you understand their structure. I don't think people should just roll over to them either.

[thaiwanderer]

Tuk tuks are merely a symptom of wider problems.

Is now the time for action against other symptoms such as prostituion, drink driving, licensing laws, visas, business ownership, land ownership and zoning?

[MissChris]

Now I know why my son won't let me use tuk tuks when I'm in Phuket...to the point where he is occasionally able to cope with me riding a motorbike. (I've had a motorbike licence since 1969)

One of my favourite quotes of his: 'Get your inheritance early - put Mum on a motorbike'

It's dreadful how the tuk tuk system has evolved. As well, there are so many able bodied Thai men just sitting around most of the day doing nothing, or maybe getting skilled at playing cards or mahjongg or whatever. What a waste!

[petercallen]

It would be interesting to know how many people who post on this forum actually use tuk tuks.

We do not use them.

They are unsafe vehicles to carry tourists in, The 2 accidents i have seen with tourists in the

back the tourist were injured and the driver was not, you are just a piece of unsecured cargo

sitting in the back if involved in a accident

The last time i used a tuk tuk was in Hadyai 3 years ago, 30 baht for a local trip and 60 baht for a longer trip

Nothing is going to change unless the relevant authorities do something about it which has not happened up to date

If you go to Patong park in the basement of Jungceylon, no tuk tuks and plenty of parking, the first 3 hours free if

you spend a 100 baht in any of the shops or get a stamped piece of paper from the bank

If you want to go any distance, use a private or metered taxi, cheaper and much safer

[grumpyoldman]

It would be interesting to know how many people who post on this forum actually use tuk tuks.

We do not use them.

I'm going to agree with the point Mr. Callen is aiming for here.

One poster mentions typically when a thread pops up like this is the local Expats who are doing the moaning here, but how often do we use a tuk-tuk. In the last six years I think I was in one last, four years ago getting home from New Years (plenty boozed up, along with the driver most likely).

Miss Chris says we should make a point by leaving. Why would I leave when I don't even use the bloody things?

Also, I think when tourists compare the pricing to a taxi at home, it still seems relatively cheap.

One thing about this thread though, there definitely have been some intelligent posts, makes for a good read although nothing is going to change.

Can I get an over/under bet on when the next tuk-tuk complaint thread will start?

[ScubaBuddha]

Tuk tuks are merely a symptom of wider problems.

+1

Is now the time for action against other symptoms such as prostitution, drink driving, licensing laws, visas, business ownership, land ownership and zoning?

But none of those things adversely effects tourism as this. None of them continue to pop up in the news as often and as predictably as this.

[madmitch]

The only way to grab the attention of a government is to internationally highlight their poor control of a particular situation.

This happened with the jet-skis and after the typical Thai knee-jerk reaction of the demand for insurance on all jet-skis operating in Phuket, has anything changed in the longer-term? No.

I'd like to thank Scubabuddha for so eloquently explaining the tuktuk situation. I think most of us living in Phuket would have known most of it but it would be interesting read for the Phuket bashers on the cruise ship thread.

In response to Peter Callen, I do occasionally take a tuktuk after a night out in Patong and recently was stuck in Chalong and managed to negotiate a reasonable price back to Karon without any difficulty. I don't ride a motorbike but have a car but do not drink and drive so it's often my only option.

Nothing will happen without Bangkok's involvement and it'll take more than a cruise ship blockade for them to be interested. But maybe something will happen sometime that will spur them to take action.

[ScubaBuddha]

I'm going to agree with the point Mr. Callen is aiming for here.

One poster mentions typically when a thread pops up like this is the local Expats who are doing the moaning here...

But gom this is an expat forum. Of course that is who will be complaining here. Go check out tripadvisor. Plenty of negative stuff there about them too. And go ahead and ask the average Thai's what they think about them. The Thai's feel the exact same. I hear it all the time from Thai's in many different industries here.

but how often do we use a tuk-tuk. In the last six years I think I was in one last, four years ago getting home from New Years (plenty boozed up, along with the driver most likely).

Miss Chris says we should make a point by leaving. Why would I leave when I don't even use the bloody things?

Also, I think when tourists compare the pricing to a taxi at home, it still seems relatively cheap.

One thing about this thread though, there definitely have been some intelligent posts, makes for a good read although

nothing is going to change.

As a rule I don't use them either, but sometimes there is no choice if you have business here. And I think a lot of people don't realize hwo they effect other things here even if they personally don't use them. I can see the retirees never having a problem when you can avoid them. Boycotting is something else we all should do and recommend to all our friends. Boycott the people who put advertising on them as well. When I was asked to price out advertising options in Phuket when I was working for my previous employer, I specifically left the tuk tuks out of the equation.

The point has been made before that we should just, "not use them" and our own individual problem is solved. (I don't think that was your point here, but you reminded me.) Of course that doesn't really avoid the problem. It's not just about extortionate fares. The problem extends way beyond simply not using them. So many people are affected by them even if you don't use them.

Try driving through Patong, Patak Rd at Karon Circle, Beach road in Karon in front of Marina Cottages, or Kata center in the evening and night time and you will see them parked everywhere half blocking the roads.

The need for them to travel between Patong and Kata/Karon twice each fare wears down that road which we all know gets wrinkles and holes big enough to take down a biker every 6 months.

Try parking in many of the spots they claim for themselves.

The many blockades effect those having businesses here.

They intimidate and threaten Thai's legitimately entering resorts to pick up clients. (This happened more than once to a Thai friend of mine in the property sales business)

By pricing out the Thai's they force them to find alternate transport, either buying their own cars or having to ride dangerous motorbikes, adding the already clogged roads here.

I had one who was very drunk try to pick a fight with me and some mates minding our own business sitting at MacDonalds on beach road in because we were lighting and dropping firecrackers at our own feet ON NEW YEARS!

I have been forced to use tuk tuks twice in the last 5 years. Both times I was refused and left stranded because my trip was too short and it wasn't worth it for the tuk tuk to lose his place in line for a short trip.

Can I get an over/under bet on when the next tuk-tuk complaint thread will start?

Soon I would bet. Plenty to complain about.

[KarenBravo]

The perrenial favourite topic of tuk-tuks. It's pretty much all been said before and I won't add to it except to say, I feel sorry for the Phuket Town tuk-tuk guys getting tarred with the same brush.

The Phuket Town tuk-tuks are cheap enough that Thais use them.

I used one a couple of months ago from Rajabat Technical college to Wat Chalong. Only cost 250 Bt.

The drivers without exception have been very friendly and helpful.

If people need a model to reform the tuk-tuk rip-offs, look no further than Phuket Town.

[TehBen]

Which is actually my point.

If you really want change, you need to do something that will demand attention from the 'powers that be' as you call it.

The only way to grab the attention of a government is to internationally highlight their poor control of a particular situation.

Granted, this may or may not work, in fact unless the initiator has any pull themselves, it probably won't. But my point is that if the OP really wants to do something about it, parking a car in front of a tuk tuk, or getting a few signatures from small restaurants and t-shirt shops is going to do nothing at all.

So in a way, even though you quoted my post but replied to none of it, we are almost saying the same thing.

Though tbh unless this situation is affecting all Phuket tourists, which it isn't (or at least the vast majority don't mind), then nobody in the international press is going to give a rat's arse about it to be frank.

Sorry if I quoting your post was inappropriate. I was agreeing with 'MrsMills' who you were disagreeing with. I assumed, that by default, that meant I disagreed with you??

I am very pleasently surprised by the posts in this thread. A couple of years ago, it would have been a different kettle of fish. Threads used to go tens of pages, and were full of people spitting blood and getting emotional beyond belief.

It would seem as if a few more people have given up worrying about a problem, which lets face it, was hardly worth worrying about. Most of the people who got the most wound up, weren't people, who were actually afected by it personally anyway. It seemed as if it was just people, desperate to have a cause to fight.

We all know the situation isn't perfect. But most of us don't let it ever ruin our day. Which it seems a lot of people used to do, judging by the posts on here.

Then I believe that you haven't read or understood my post. Without getting into an arguement over it, I was pointing out an oversimplification of the subject and irrational generalisations. Then you quoted me, insinuating that I was making the situation out to be something it is not, and that I 'didnt understand' the situation, which, in fact, if you were to read my post you would see that I was merely pointing out the flaws in 'MrsMills' post.

Edited April 8, 2011 by TehBen

[BangTaoBoy]

Then I believe that you haven't read or understood my post. Without getting into an arguement over it, I was pointing out an oversimplification of the subject and irrational generalisations. Then you quoted me, insinuating that I was making the situation out to be something it is not, and that I 'didnt understand' the situation, which, in fact, if you were to read my post you would see that I was merely pointing out the flaws in 'MrsMills' post.

So in which case I was right. You were pointing out the floors in 'MrsMills' post, and I didn't believe there were any floors in 'MrsMills' post, so I was dissagreeing with you, so I quoted you.

Perhaps my post didn't respond to your post directly, which has lead to the confusion.

If it would help, I can promise not to quote your posts again.

[ivowatson]

But who wants change? The tourists are happy with the services, thais don't need tuktuks for several reasons, and expats are just moaning about it but don't really care, they have all their own transportation.

Sure, the (millionaire) tourists are very happy. Ask the ones from the cruiser arriving at Ao makham the other day. 1500 THB to patong. Don't forget to tip LOL. In the US I would pay double! And this nice guy is even smiling all the time. How lovely.

[MissChris]

"Miss Chris says we should make a point by leaving. Why would I leave when I don't even use the bloody things?"

grumpyoldman

I did not say that! I said that my son won't let me use them when I'm in Phuket...

[appropriate]

You think tour agencies and hotels are going to warn their customers not to use tuk-tuks (or anything else) on the island because they're generally lying criminal scum?

We can whine and cry like little girls for the next hundred years but nothing will change until something positive is done.

Nothing will be done anyway, until there's a change of office.

Unfortunately as the post is so profitable some of the boys are likely to spend quite a bit of cash to be given it. In which case they need a nice return on their investment.

Anyone who thinks the main problem is the phuket 'tuk tuks' is living in laalaa land.

1) contact every foreign tour company bringing visitors here from anywhere in the world with well written explanations of what is going on and urging them to pass on to their clients a strong suggestion to never use a tuk-tuk while in Phuket;

Promote negativity? Yeah right.

2) make continuous postings on every travel and social networking web site with the same; 3) write articles for travel magazines, travel columns in local newspapers and television production companies abroad;

You do realise most tourists don't actually care. They're here for a short time, thb means nothing to them, why would they care.

4) email the upper management at the HQs of the leading hotel chains who have a presence in Thailand so that they can make the information available to all of their guests before they arrive.

Again, promoting negativity and highlighting criminal behaviour in their holiday destination. You're avin' a laugh mate.

And it will give them a sense of empowerment in helping to eliminate the tuk-tuk business here.

Tourists love riding in tuk-tuks. It's part of their 'Thai holiday'.

It is only a matter disseminating this information to make this successful.

Laalaa Land.

[TehBen]

If you really want to do something, try to attract the attention of the international media. Ok, so more bad press will affect tourism, but that is the point. What you need is the government to stand up to deal with the problem.

No, The Thai Government wont do anything until Farangs stop coming here for holidays or Farangs stop wanting to live here, and that ain't gonna happen !

If Thailand was that bad, this very lucrative website wouldn't exist, and it exists because the Farangs that live don't think that it's so bad, and advertisers must think that its OK to advertise here, else they would surely have the intelligence to be gone to pastures new, right ?

Then I believe that you haven't read or understood my post. Without getting into an arguement over it, I was pointing out an oversimplification of the subject and irrational generalisations. Then you quoted me, insinuating that I was making the situation out to be something it is not, and that I 'didnt understand' the situation, which, in fact, if you were to read my post you would see that I was merely pointing out the flaws in 'MrsMills' post.

So in which case I was right. You were pointing out the floors in 'MrsMills' post, and I didn't believe there were any floors in 'MrsMills' post, so I was dissagreeing with you, so I quoted you.

Perhaps my post didn't respond to your post directly, which has lead to the confusion.

If it would help, I can promise not to quote your posts again.

Is that the first or second paragraph of the above quote? The first sentence I didn't disagree with, I just commented that it was a generalisation. Maybe I should have meant exaggeration, though.

The second paragraph is quite obviously an over simplification of the whole issue, which is what I pointed out.

Anyway, confusion and miscommunication aside, it is good to get different opinions on the subject.

[BangTaoBoy]

If Thailand was that bad, this very lucrative website wouldn't exist, and it exists because the Farangs that live don't think that it's so bad, and advertisers must think that its OK to advertise here, else they would surely have the intelligence to be gone to pastures new, right ?

Is that the first or second paragraph of the above quote? The first sentence I didn't disagree with, I just commented that it was a generalisation. Maybe I should have meant exaggeration, though.

The second paragraph is quite obviously an over simplification of the whole issue, which is what I pointed out.

Anyway, confusion and miscommunication aside, it is good to get different opinions on the subject.

I think we're almost there, sorting out our misunderstanding We've got it down to one paragraph, that all our posts have in common.

Unfortunately, nothing has changed. I still see nothing wrong with that statement. If something is accurate, I don't see how being slightly simplified, or generalised is a problem. It certainly doesn't make the point wrong, as you seemed to imply it was, which is the whole reason I quoted you in the first place.

If you take Malaysia for example (I might be wrong on this, haven't bothered to check) I'm fairly sure, on the whole their government is less corrupt, and more stable (more like the west as it were) than Thailand. Yet I would guess that they attract a tiny percent of the tourists. That I believe, is the essence of what 'MrsMills' was implying.

This forum has how many hundreds of thousand members? How many tourists flood through the doors every year? Has that number gone down in the last 12 months, when there were a couple of other incidents and long threads discussing them? (when 'ScubahBuddah' saw a couple of Farang getting beaten up) The answer is of course, no, they haven't.

In one years time, I will make a post with links to this thread, the one 12 months ago, and the current one of the day. I will point out to you, the same posters in all three threads, that said something needs to be done, and something will be done if we just write some letters to the press.........Blah Blah Blah. Perhaps if people see it in front of their eyes, once peoples predictions have been proved to be wrong several times over, perhaps then you will see the situation for what it is, accept it for what it is, and learn to not let it upset you. The beauty of the internet, is it's here forever. The big, bold predictions you make today, can be checked against reality in the future. Lots of egg on lots of faces I assure you.

As many people have said. Things won't change until the numbers stop walking through that airport. The hotel rooms stop being filled, businesses need to close, Tuk Tuk drivers can't even afford to pay their car rent, let alone make a profit. If that happens things will be forced to change, but if you think you can have a hand in that by writing letters, you are very mistaken and naive to boot.

[grumpyoldman]

"Miss Chris says we should make a point by leaving. Why would I leave when I don't even use the bloody things?"

grumpyoldman

I did not say that! I said that my son won't let me use them when I'm in Phuket...

My apologies MissChris, I got yours mixed up with MissMill's post.

[TehBen]

erm, no, I don't think so. You are generalising quite a lot. I believe this problem is just the tuk-tuk situation in Phuket, rather than Thailand as a whole.

TBH I think your whole post is a string of generalisations and it is difficult to know where to start replying to it

I guess I could try...

1. A further reduction in numbers would have an affect, you do not need every tourist to boycott Thailand and every ex-pat to move away. Generalisation number 1.

2. Nobody is saying Thailand as a whole is that bad, they are saying that the tuk-tuk situation in particular is bad and due to the way it works, it would be difficult for anyone to do anything about it.

3. Ferangs that live in Phuket obviously choose to not let it worry them so much or at least have priorities, that doesn't mean it is good.

4. Why would this website not exist? Are you saying that if Thailand had a corrupt legal system and a government that was riddled with bribery and corruption at every level, then there wouldn't be any ex-pats living here?

5. Advertisers don't have morals, they have targets. Where there is traffic, there is exposure.

By the way. I, personally, was not commenting on the situation in Thailand as a whole. Personally I have (possibly misguided) faith in the morality of certain members of the governement and that is why I made the suggestion above. You need to understand that one voice is not enough to command the attention of a government, but 1 headline in the right place, might, hence my point.

If Thailand was that bad, this very lucrative website wouldn't exist, and it exists because the Farangs that live don't think that it's so bad, and advertisers must think that its OK to advertise here, else they would surely have the intelligence to be gone to pastures new, right ?

Is that the first or second paragraph of the above quote? The first sentence I didn't disagree with, I just commented that it was a generalisation. Maybe I should have meant exaggeration, though.

The second paragraph is quite obviously an over simplification of the whole issue, which is what I pointed out.

Anyway, confusion and miscommunication aside, it is good to get different opinions on the subject.

I think we're almost there, sorting out our misunderstanding We've got it down to one paragraph, that all our posts have in common.

Unfortunately, nothing has changed. I still see nothing wrong with that statement. If something is accurate, I don't see how being slightly simplified, or generalised is a problem. It certainly doesn't make the point wrong, as you seemed to imply it was, which is the whole reason I quoted you in the first place.

If you take Malaysia for example (I might be wrong on this, haven't bothered to check) I'm fairly sure, on the whole their government is less corrupt, and more stable (more like the west as it were) than Thailand. Yet I would guess that they attract a tiny percent of the tourists. That I believe, is the essence of what 'MrsMills' was implying.

This forum has how many hundreds of thousand members? How many tourists flood through the doors every year? Has that number gone down in the last 12 months, when there were a couple of other incidents and long threads discussing them? (when 'ScubahBuddah' saw a couple of Farang getting beaten up) The answer is of course, no, they haven't.

In one years time, I will make a post with links to this thread, the one 12 months ago, and the current one of the day. I will point out to you, the same posters in all three threads, that said something needs to be done, and something will be done if we just write some letters to the press.........Blah Blah Blah. Perhaps if people see it in front of their eyes, once peoples predictions have been proved to be wrong several times over, perhaps then you will see the situation for what it is, accept it for what it is, and learn to not let it upset you. The beauty of the internet, is it's here forever. The big, bold predictions you make today, can be checked against reality in the future. Lots of egg on lots of faces I assure you.

As many people have said. Things won't change until the numbers stop walking through that airport. The hotel rooms stop being filled, businesses need to close, Tuk Tuk drivers can't even afford to pay their car rent, let alone make a profit. If that happens things will be forced to change, but if you think you can have a hand in that by writing letters, you are very mistaken and naive to boot.

I didn't want to take this even further off topic but I feel as though I have to reiterate and then explain what I wrote to show you that, in fact, I did not disagree with anything, I merely suggested that the comment made was an over-simplification of the situation that leads to an irrational and massive over-generalisation of the reasons why TV exists, or doesn't not exist.

Let us break down the comment.

"If Thailand was that bad, this very lucrative website wouldn't exist"

So if Thailand was that bad, as in, if Thailand was well known for having an almost openly corrupt penal system, then ThaiVisa would not exist? Well, as you have just stated that Malaysia is less corrupt than Thailand, that must mean that you think Thailand is known for corruption in some areas of society. So Thailand is that bad, as you have just proved, but TV does exist.

"and it exists because the Farangs that live don't think that it's so bad, "

Possibly, maybe they think one part of the system/society is bad, but the pros outweight the cons? (here is an example of a generalisation that i did not disagree with, but I pointed it out)

"and advertisers must think that its OK to advertise here, else they would surely have the intelligence to be gone to pastures new, right ?"

As I said, and everyone in business knows, advertising only works when there is exposure, and a web board with thousands of users would mean massive exposure, quite obviously. Whether Thailand's penal system is corrupt or not and whether it is morally wrong to post advertisements on a web board that is about a country that has corruption so blatantly in daily life is beside the point as far as advertisers go. I mean, we can see adverts for 24 hour massage parlours on this very page and while some believe that to be morally wrong, the advertisers dont, because it is teir business and they are making money from it.

In actual fact, I couldn't understand why marketing was brought into the topic at all. This last statement I found completely meaningless.

So, as you can see, rather than disagreeing with the comment, I was merely stating that it was an over-generalisation that didn't, in fact, make sense.