Has The Premiership Lost It's Magic?

[Fast Eddie]

IMO, the Arsenal team, under Wenger, has played some of the most entertaining and stylish football seen in England. I feel i should add that i am not an Arsenal fan.

[jjp]

Quote Lampard10,

Excuse me please. When Arsenal did the double, wern't they labelled the most boring team to have played in Englands top division. Or is that a term reserved for winners by the also-rans?

On the defensive again mate. It seems to me you are not enjoying being the top team.

If you ask any neutral football fan if Chelsea play more attractive football than both Utd and Arsenal when they were at their best and i think you would get your answer. Hand on heart you know its true.

Like i said in earlier threads Chelsea are a good team and i dont go along with they are not attractive to watch. Aye but you shouldn't care right because you are sitting pretty at the top.

Away fans always used to sing who the F... are Man Utd. Now we have sung it back for years at them and it leaves them slightly baffled.

Likewise, Arsenal fans sang boring boring Aresnal cos they were labelled boring Arsenal.

Now then cos Chelsea have only been at the top for a couple of seasons maybe the fans need to digest it all first. You should be a light hearted about it cos you might have to wait another 50 years for the success you are enjoying at the moment.

JJP

Chelsea Champions

[Bredbury Blue]

JJP,

1. Quote you: “and yes Chelsea are not as attractive (noticed you only used Arsenal there)”. What did you think I’d mention your lot there, get real, it’s only in recent years that I’ve allowed my self to wear the colour red (I blame my wife for that), if my family in M/cr ever find out I wouldn’t be allowed in the house. I’m a Blue, and like all football supporters I have a bias, and in ManU’s case an inbred aversion / hate.

2. Quote you: “We are not on the decline that much mate.” What, after +20 years of trying to win the Div 1 / Premier you finally won it, retained it for years, won several cups, dominated for over 5 years without a real challenger, but for the past 3 years or so you’ve won nowt and the man who brought you all that success is on the verge of moving on / being moved on and you tell me that you’re not on the decline…you’re deluding yourself mate. It’s a good job the Arse are building their new ground and have no money for players or you’d be lucky to grab 3rd.

3. Quote me: “City have been creeping up on you over the past seasons and when Fergie leaves and chaos rules, our Stuey will steer our boys above you. “ Quote you: “Is that a joke.” No. Firstly, after years of decline since ’76 / ’77, we’ve been moving in the right direction beginning with Joe Royle’s first full season, we’ve stabilized and crept up the Premier season on season, WE have the quality coming through our Academy, and we now give you lot a decent game again every season. Secondly, your response is exemplary of that divine right that ManU fans believe they have to dominate football and be the no.1 club in M/cr – and that goes along way to explain why you lot are despised by all. You might have been doing all right since the Premier started, but you weren’t so hot from the early 70’s till the Premier started (the odd FA cup win fair enough) – I presume that you know the facts on why the Premier started and who instigated it (yes your lot , Edwards, and Spurs) in order to get the TV money from the teams outside the top tier; I also presume you know your lot were the instigators of home teams not sharing gate receipts – yes having a lot of money helps to win things and its highly significant that your lot have done alright since the money was around the Premier. When I was in school in Manchester in the late ‘60s and 70’s WE were the top dogs in M/cr (check the derby results if you disagree) and I’ll always recall my Granddad (he’d be 98 now bless him) who like all in our Mancunian family was a Blue, reminiscing that pre-WWII that City were perceived country wide as Manchester’s biggest club. Being the first club to feature on a national televised game, being one of the rebels who joined the virgin European cup scene against the wishes of the football league clubs and being on one of the first European tie TV games, receiving worldwide sympathy after Munich, all helped cement your lot as being the armchair supporters favourite in the years that followed those events. Will you always be top boys in M/cr, I doubt as all City supporters do, football is cyclical and its very highly unlikely that you won’t have a slump and we won’t have our moment in the sun again.

Was that a joke? Very definitely not.

4. Finally, I note that you tactfully declined to respond to my comments on Lord Red nose’s impending departure and the terrible affect that’s going to have on your lot.

May I ask what is your connection to ManU? You from M’cr or your family from there or an older family member supports them? I’m interested to know, no offense is intended.

[Bredbury Blue]

Lampard10 said "Excuse me please. When Arsenal did the double, wern't they labelled the most boring team to have played in Englands top division. Or is that a term reserved for winners by the also-rans?"

They certainly were Lamps and don't let them ever forget it.

Edited October 7, 2005 by Bredbury Blue

[jjp]

Hello again Bradbury Blue

Quote you:

May I ask what is your connection to ManU? You from M’cr or your family from there or an older family member supports them? I’m interested to know, no offense is intended.

Firstly,

I am from M/cr, Blackley, which is north Manc. I have lived in Bangkok for 9 years so i am an exciled Manc. And all the bullshit that no reds come from Manchester, are you havin a laugh mate. You know as well as i do that is <deleted>. City just use it because they are bitter.

I have followed Utd not Man u home and away and in europe since 77. My first match was in 78 v Aston Villa at OT. I still have my season ticket alongside my dad in the east stand (formily known as K stand) which my friend uses cos for the above reason i cant attend. My swansong was when Eric scored at wembley v Lonnypool in the F.A cup final 96. I have been to wembley about 15 times with my first visit in 83 v Loonypool in the milk cup final which they won 2-1 with Norman Whiteside scoring and Ronnie Whelan scoring the winner in extra time. I was even at Maine Road when you hammered us at Maine Road 5-1 in 89 and if i rembember rightly David Oldfield scored a couple and Hughsie scored our goal. I was in Rotterdam in 91 when we beat Barc 2.1 with Hughsie scoring one cant remember the other goalscorer cos i was too stoned and pissed to remember.

I could go on and on on but i wont ho ho.

So as you can see i am well quailfied to have my say on Utd.

quote you

being the armchair supporters favourite

Hmmm even when Lonnypool was winning everything we had the highest average attendence. Even in Tommy docs era which i just missed we would take thousands to aways and OT was packed. Granted, gloryhunters have jumped on the bandwagon over the last 10 years. Every successful club gets them. Maybe City dont cos you never win anything.

Quote you;

Firstly, after years of decline since ’76 / ’77, we’ve been moving in the right direction beginning with Joe Royle’s first full season, we’ve stabilized and crept up the Premier season on season,

Right direction, Correct me if i am wrong but you have been up and down like a yo yo for the past 20 years and to cap it all off i think you have only won the Zenith Data cup in that time.(30 years mate)

quote you

City were the top dogs in M/cr.

Agreed, so me dad told me anyhow or was it just a dream.

As for mr red nose, Well having seen the shit i have watched before Fergie i cannot bring myself to slag him cos of the magic moments(so many its hard to remember them all) he has given me. I am not deluded but maybe a sense of loyalty towards him.

Declie emmm, probally so but i would rather be in our decline and have a chance of winning somthing than be in your shoes.

Quote you:

I doubt as all City supporters do, football is cyclical and its very highly unlikely that you won’t have a slump and we won’t have our moment in the sun again

Your right there

Quote you

an inbred aversion / hate.

Dont forget bitterness

quote you:

It’s only in recent years that I’ve allowed my self to wear the colour red

How sad. I used to do that in primary school but i am a little old for that now as are you, me thinks.

Anyhow stop picking on me

Remember my dad is bigger than your dad

JJP

[Bredbury Blue]

Hello again JJP the Red.

The reason I asked “what is your connection to ManU?” is you refer to me as Bredbury Blue, so I reasoned that you weren’t from M/cr if you’ve never heard of Bredbury (its not Bradbury) or you’re dyslexic or you’re on a wind-up. Anyway pleased to see you’re from Blackley which I used to know well as that’s where my mum’s from.

“And all the bullshit that no reds come from Manchester, are you havin a laugh mate. You know as well as i do that is <deleted>. City just use it because they are bitter.”

Actually, we don’t say “no reds come from M/cr” what we do say is that “there are more City supporters in M/cr than Reds” and all Blues firmly believe it – and so does the media, ha! In my case there were more kids supporting City at school and more Blues in the local pubs, therefore it seems fair to assume that in the southern part of Manchester I’m from the majority are Blues; granted Blackley is in a red area. Here’s something to consider, on a similar theme, its always seemed to me that the majority of Scousers I’ve ever met support Everton (who have achieved less than Liverpool in my time so winning clearly is not a factor in local support), and whenever Scouse footballers are talked about they always seem to support Everton, so why isn’t it possible that one team does have a local majority?

“I have followed Utd not Man u home and away and in europe since 77… So as you can see i am well quailfied to have my say on Utd… being the armchair supporters favourite”

Very good, but you can put your red credentials away as that wasn’t the jist of my post was it. The points I was making, were (1) United do not have a divine right to success (you weren’t that clever before Busby came along in the 50’s) and (2) United have not always been the cock of Manchester – you have had the bragging rights in the period that you’ve been watching them but I dare say that if you’d seen your lot from 1970 to 76 including the relegation season your comments should be a tad more reserved.

“gloryhunters have jumped on the bandwagon over the last 10 years. Every successful club gets them. Maybe City dont cos you never win anything”.

Would we want them? Don’t think so. We’re reasonably happy with our club, its not all about winning is it otherwise why would 92 teams be bothering when only about 10% ever taste any success at any division level over a period of time. Football is, or should be about, believing (you’re about to achieve something) and most importantly being part of the local ‘clan’. Put it this way, we’ve had internal troubles and achieved nothing for far too long time, we don’t dispute that, but do we waver, no, did we get +30,000 average over the season we were in the third tier and were in the top 10 average nationwide that season, yes, do we not get the third highest average crowd currently which is in +40,000 in a city which hosts the club with highest average, yes. Not too bad.

“Right direction, Correct me if i am wrong but you have been up and down like a yo yo for the past 20 years and to cap it all off i think you have only won the Zenith Data cup in that time.(30 years mate).” We do not hide from the fact we’ve won bugger all major since 76. Actually think we lost the Zenith Data cup to Chelsea something like 4 v 5.

“quote you: City were the top dogs in M/cr.” “Agreed, so me dad told me anyhow or was it just a dream”.

No it was the reality, could it happen again, why not. Virtually ever club of the current 92 has had its bad time and been relegated for a while, bar the Arse and Everton. Who knows, maybe the scenarios of Glazers in, Fergie out, old players not replaced, the fans seem disillusioned (hence FC United of Manchester), maybe the slippery slope is just around the corner – wouldn’t be the first time.

“As for mr red nose, Well having seen the shit i have watched before Fergie i cannot bring myself to slag him cos of the magic moments(so many its hard to remember them all) he has given me. I am not deluded but maybe a sense of loyalty towards him.”

Personally, I don’t think any ManU supporter should be disrespecting Lord Red nose for how he’s turned your club around – it seems there are those who forget that it was a joke for many many years how ManU endeavoured but never got near to winning the Title until he came along. Its looking like his time is up, but really who looks like capably replacing him – there aren’t too many Wengers and Morinho’s out there – he’s going to be very hard to replace and that my friend has got to be your biggest problem.

“an inbred aversion / hate.” ”Dont forget bitterness”.

I wish some one would tell me why it’s wrong to be bitter, we’re honest folk us Blues, we don’t like ManU so face it.

quote you: “It’s only in recent years that I’ve allowed my self to wear the colour red.” “How sad. I used to do that in primary school but i am a little old for that now as are you, me thinks.”

My older brother is in his fifties and will have nothing red in the house, that’s just the way it is.

To finish, i don’t have a great deal of problem with Mancunian Reds after all I was brought up with them around me and its only right that they support their local team, and I very happy to correspond and keep this banter going as it brightens up my dull work day – I eagerly awaiting your response. I’ve got to go home now though, to watch my videos of the old glory days (in black and white, yep), but before I do I saw something quite remarkable at lunchtime in Central Bangna – I saw a little Thai kid (a girl and most likely ‘luuk krung’) with her mum, and the little girl had a full City kit on, now that was a first for me in more than a decade of living here, seeing a Thai wearing our colours.

Tara for now.

[nev]

JJP,

1. Quote you: “and yes Chelsea are not as attractive (noticed you only used Arsenal there)”. What did you think I’d mention your lot there, get real, it’s only in recent years that I’ve allowed my self to wear the colour red (I blame my wife for that), if my family in M/cr ever find out I wouldn’t be allowed in the house. I’m a Blue, and like all football supporters I have a bias, and in ManU’s case an inbred aversion / hate.

2. Quote you: “We are not on the decline that much mate.” What, after +20 years of trying to win the Div 1 / Premier you finally won it, retained it for years, won several cups, dominated for over 5 years without a real challenger, but for the past 3 years or so you’ve won nowt and the man who brought you all that success is on the verge of moving on / being moved on and you tell me that you’re not on the decline…you’re deluding yourself mate. It’s a good job the Arse are building their new ground and have no money for players or you’d be lucky to grab 3rd.

3. Quote me: “City have been creeping up on you over the past seasons and when Fergie leaves and chaos rules, our Stuey will steer our boys above you. “  Quote you: “Is that a joke.” No. Firstly, after years of decline since ’76 / ’77, we’ve been moving in the right direction beginning with Joe Royle’s first full season, we’ve stabilized and crept up the Premier season on season, WE have the quality coming through our Academy, and we now give you lot a decent game again every season.  Secondly, your response is exemplary of that divine right that ManU fans believe they have to dominate football and be the no.1 club in M/cr – and that goes along way to explain why you lot are despised by all. You might have been doing all right since the Premier started, but you weren’t so hot from the early 70’s till the Premier started (the odd FA cup win fair enough) – I presume that you know the facts on why the Premier started and who instigated it (yes your lot , Edwards, and Spurs) in order to get the TV money from the teams outside the top tier; I also presume you know your lot were the instigators of home teams not sharing gate receipts – yes having a lot of money helps to win things and its highly significant that your lot have done alright since the money was around the Premier. When I was in school in Manchester in the late ‘60s and 70’s WE were the top dogs in M/cr (check the derby results if you disagree) and I’ll always recall my Granddad (he’d be 98 now bless him) who like all in our Mancunian family was a Blue, reminiscing that pre-WWII that City were perceived country wide as Manchester’s biggest club. Being the first club to feature on a national televised game, being one of the rebels who joined the virgin European cup scene against the wishes of the football league clubs and being on one of the first European tie TV games, receiving worldwide sympathy after Munich, all helped cement your lot as being the armchair supporters favourite in the years that followed those events. Will you always be top boys in M/cr, I doubt as all City supporters do, football is cyclical and its very highly unlikely that you won’t have a slump and we won’t have our moment in the sun again.

Was that a joke? Very definitely not.

4. Finally, I note that you tactfully declined to respond to my comments on Lord Red nose’s impending departure and the terrible affect that’s going to have on your lot.

May I ask what is your connection to ManU? You from M’cr or your family from there or an older family member supports them? I’m interested to know, no offense is intended.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wow you are obsessed another bluenose bitter,lol.

do you really believe all that crap you just wrote

[jjp]

Morning Bredbury Blue, note the spelling please

Quote you;Actually, we don’t say “no reds come from M/cr” what we do say is that “there are more City supporters in M/cr than Reds” and all Blues firmly believe it

Dont agree mate . There was a survey conducted in the Manchester evening news last year in the Manchester area to see how many blues and how many reds lived in Manchester . Well sorry to disappoint you but there was more reds mate. I will try to find it and post it on here.

Quote you

United do not have a divine right to success (you weren’t that clever before Busby came along in the 50’s) and (2) United have not always been the cock of Manchester – you have had the bragging rights in the period that you’ve been watching them but I dare say that if you’d seen your lot from 1970 to 76 including the relegation season your comments should be a tad more reserved

Where in my posts have I said we have a divine right to win everything. Great teams have to graft and work hard. It doesn't not come on a plate

Agreed, I can't really comment on that and I know city was good with Franny Lee, Doyle, Boyle and Summerbe. Although i do remember Tommy Docs team in 76-77 which had a good attaking team with Steve Coppell and Gordon Hill on the wing.

Quote you

no, did we get +30,000 average over the season we were in the third tier and were in the top 10 average nationwide that season, yes, do we not get the third highest average crowd currently which is in +40,000 in a city which hosts the club with highest average, yes. Not too bad.

I know city have a good following and are loyal and have good attendences but it just gets me when people say Utd have the support now because of the success we have enjoyed over the last years. Like i said in a earlier post, in the seventies and eighties when we was crap,we was the best supported club in the UK.

Quote you,

Personally, I don’t think any ManU supporter should be disrespecting Lord Red nose for how he’s turned your club around

Agree totally and any who do are ######s and have a short memory.

Quote you;

Its looking like his time is up, but really who looks like capably replacing him – there aren’t too many Wengers and Morinho’s out there – he’s going to be very hard to replace and that my friend has got to be your biggest problem.

Maybe his time is up and we need someone with fresh ideas but if he is here to stay for a few more years, get behind the fella instead of slagging him. Also its ironic that when Fergie said he was going to retire a few years back Mr. Morhino was up and coming and was avavible. Oh the twist of fate eh. It could have been him at Utd now and not Chelsea. I am not turning bitter honest

Quote you

To finish, i don’t have a great deal of problem with Mancunian Reds.

Maybe we should meet up for the derby in Jan.

Quote you

Thai kid (a girl and most likely ‘luuk krung’) with her mum, and the little girl had a full City kit on, now that was a first for me in more than a decade of living here, seeing a Thai wearing our colours.

I suppose you got a buzz from that then. : . Did your face look like this at the time.

JJP

Did you enjoy the black and white VDO

[Bredbury Blue]

wow you are obsessed another bluenose bitter,lol.

do you really believe all that crap you just wrote

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you anything to add on this topic apart from name calling or are you just leaving it to JJP to do. Yes i am another bluenose bitter and yes i do believe what i wrote, i presume you don't, would you care to enlighten us?

[Bredbury Blue]

Hi there JJP,

1. BLUE: Quote you; Actually, we don’t say “no reds come from M/cr” what we do say is that “there are more City supporters in M/cr than Reds” and all Blues firmly believe it. RED: Don’t agree mate. There was a survey conducted in the Manchester evening news last year in the Manchester area to see how many blues and how many reds lived in Manchester. Well sorry to disappoint you but there was more reds mate. I will try to find it and post it on here. BLUE: Well we are know what City supporters think of the MEN – this is the newspaper that is so scared of Fergie that they don’t allow authors access to their files for research. I have heard of the report you refer to and look forward to reading it again.

2. BLUE : United do not have a divine right to success (you weren’t that clever before Busby came along in the 50’s) and (2) United have not always been the cock of Manchester – you have had the bragging rights in the period that you’ve been watching them but I dare say that if you’d seen your lot from 1970 to 76 including the relegation season your comments should be a tad more reserved RED: Where in my posts have I said we have a divine right to win everything. Great teams have to graft and work hard. It doesn't not come on a plate. BLUE: I’m not sure that I’ve referred to you using ‘divine’, but I did in the post that you responded to and which I believe is the perception that many non ManU supporters have of your club.

3 . RED : Agreed, I can't really comment on that and I know city was good with Franny Lee, Doyle, Boyle and Summerbe. BLUE: Who’s Boyle?

4. BLUE: So who’s in the hat to replace Fergie then?

5. BLUE: To finish, i don’t have a great deal of problem with Mancunian Reds. RED Maybe we should meet up for the derby in Jan. BLUE: I’m there if you’re paying.

6. BLUE: Thai kid (a girl and most likely ‘luuk krung’) with her mum, and the little girl had a full City kit on, now that was a first for me in more than a decade of living here, seeing a Thai wearing our colours. RED: I suppose you got a buzz from that then. BLUE: Too bloody right mate, I even got my little un’s in their kits on the Saturday as a show of solidarity.

7. RED: Did you enjoy the black and white VDO? BLUE: Nah, couldn’t get the remote off the wife, apparently there was a very good Thai soap opera on (all weekend), and the little un’s wanted to watch Spark and the Cartoon Network, had to settle for watching the crap displays of England and the U’21’s late at night.

[nev]

wow you are obsessed another bluenose bitter,lol.

do you really believe all that crap you just wrote

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you anything to add on this topic apart from name calling or are you just leaving it to JJP to do. Yes i am another bluenose bitter and yes i do believe what i wrote, i presume you don't, would you care to enlighten us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think jjp is doing a pretty good job at the moment if he needs back up i will help just havnt got the time to respond at the moment.

no it is not name calling just a observation of your obsession with man utd.

could i care less no.

i dont hate city you are just small time rivals liverpool are our main rivals.

cheers mate nev.

[jjp]

Bred blue , Nev

Maybe we should carry on in the utd in decline thread cos this is nothing to do with the topic thread,

Cheers

JJP

[Bredbury Blue]

JJP, you are spot on and i reckon the three of us should move our Mancunianisms over to the "utd in decline" thread.

[Sarpedon]

There is a good article on www.football365.com about the dominace of Chelsea and if you ignore Chelsea then the league makes for interesting reading.

Its not bitterness with all the cash that Chelsea have at their disposal as the writer says "while buying trophies can't be very satisfying, it's at least better than not winning them at all"

Some other quotes taken from that article:

"One of the teams at the top is predictable - Manchester United. The others? Spurs, Man City, Wigan and Charlton. Liverpool - the European Champions - are down in 11th place (yes, 12th in real life, but remember - no Chelsea!). Newcastle? 12th, after spending £17m on Michael Owen and a small fortune on their midfield. Arsenal, this time a year ago dubbed 'The Invincibles', sit down in seventh."

"The bottom end of the table is even more exciting. Who would have thought that anyone would be below Sunderland in the table, particularly Everton, who two months ago were planning their assault on the Champions League? Who would have thought that West Ham would have more than double the points of the teams in the relegation zone? Who would have dared to hope that Fulham and Birmingham, two teams who've somehow survived the last couple of seasons playing horrible football, might actually go down this year?"

And what would make any Spurs fan happy is:

How the Premiership would look if games against Chelsea were not taken into account...

Pos TEAM P W D L F A PTS

1 Tottenham Hotspur 8 5 3 1 11 3 18

2 Manchester United 8 5 2 1 13 6 17

3 Manchester City 8 4 2 2 10 7 17

4 Charlton Athletic 7 5 1 2 13 6 16

5 Wigan Athletic 7 5 1 2 8 4 16

6 Bolton Wanderers 8 4 2 3 9 6 14

7 Arsenal 7 4 1 3 11 4 13

8 West Ham United 7 3 3 1 12 7 12

9 Middlesbrough 9 3 3 3 10 12 12

10 Blackburn Rovers 9 3 2 4 7 10 11

11 Liverpool 6 2 4 1 4 2 10

12 Newcastle United 9 2 3 4 5 8 9

13 Aston Villa 8 1 3 4 8 12 9

14 West Brom 8 2 2 5 9 12 8

15 Portsmouth 9 1 4 4 6 10 7

16 Fulham 9 1 3 5 8 14 6

17 Birmingham City 8 1 3 4 7 13 6

18 Sunderland 8 1 2 6 7 12 5

19 Everton 7 1 0 6 1 9 3