5 More Musicians Jailed

[wolf5370]

<snip>

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

No, I think the issue is most definitely with the definition of the law. The way the law defines work (and thus requirement to have a work permit) encompasses every action - it therefore applies to any and every non national entering the country at any time. This is patently wrong. The law IS the issue as it affords carte blanche authority to arrest any non national for any action that is not covered by a work permit (like traveling to work - even if you have a WP for that place of work). The fact that it is not usually enforced does not make it a valid law, jus that the authorities try to work with it with some logic. The law needs to be ammended and clarified so immigration, the courts and the police can prosecute it properly and so that visitors (of any type) know where they stand and can avoid breaking the law. As it stands it is undefined and all encompassing which is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Kind of reminds one of lèse majesté, doesn't it? Funny about that.

I am sorry I upset you to the point of you sending me a rude inflammatory private message . Therefore I will try to explain my humor on this particular thread.

"The click your heels 3 time" is from the Wizard of Oz ,a classic and was somewhat of a joke but at the same time a reminder to everyone upset with Thailand due to the arrest of people working without proper documents. The point iwas simply unlike Nazi Germany's Jewish community, that some of you guys found the need to compare Thailand situation too, we are not locked up in camps here ,we have a free choice to stay or go home. We as tourist and/or non immigrant visa holders are in no position and never will be to confront Thai law.Regardless I do apologise for not being clear and/or making fun which apparently is inflammatory.Do try to remember when you are in situations that you find yourself with no real control over the best thing to do is laugh at it and move on.

I didn't send you any PM - rude or otherwise - so why quote me?

No one compared Thailand to Nazi Germany in any posts that I saw here. I DID use a famous quote that was originally used in reference to the Nazis, but no parallel was drawn, simply the message that to &lt;deleted&gt; just because its easier and someone else is taking the brunt of bad governance (in a way that can also be turned upon you) is a poor choice - I also did clarify this to SahrasBloke.

You still miss the point that just because we can't change things doesn't mean we should not be able to discuss them - as I said already, we can't change hsitory, but people discuss that all the time. Indeed, this would be a fairly quiet forum if we could only discuss things we can change - as would every other forum on the internet!

You WILL get catty replies when you give glib responses that in no way addresses the points made in the posts you quote - likewise, just repeating "if you don't like it go home" (however thinly disguised) - the most overused, boring, and pointless posted response on this forum - isn't a point of debate at all.

[montrii]

No, I think the issue is most definitely with the definition of the law. The way the law defines work (and thus requirement to have a work permit) encompasses every action - it therefore applies to any and every non national entering the country at any time. This is patently wrong. The law IS the issue as it affords carte blanche authority to arrest any non national for any action that is not covered by a work permit (like traveling to work - even if you have a WP for that place of work). The fact that it is not usually enforced does not make it a valid law, jus that the authorities try to work with it with some logic. The law needs to be ammended and clarified so immigration, the courts and the police can prosecute it properly and so that visitors (of any type) know where they stand and can avoid breaking the law. As it stands it is undefined and all encompassing which is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Kind of reminds one of lèse majesté, doesn't it? Funny about that.

I am sorry I upset you to the point of you sending me a rude inflammatory private message . Therefore I will try to explain my humor on this particular thread.

"The click your heels 3 time" is from the Wizard of Oz ,a classic and was somewhat of a joke but at the same time a reminder to everyone upset with Thailand due to the arrest of people working without proper documents. The point iwas simply unlike Nazi Germany's Jewish community, that some of you guys found the need to compare Thailand situation too, we are not locked up in camps here ,we have a free choice to stay or go home. We as tourist and/or non immigrant visa holders are in no position and never will be to confront Thai law.Regardless I do apologise for not being clear and/or making fun which apparently is inflammatory.Do try to remember when you are in situations that you find yourself with no real control over the best thing to do is laugh at it and move on.

I didn't send you any PM - rude or otherwise - so why quote me?

No one compared Thailand to Nazi Germany in any posts that I saw here. I DID use a famous quote that was originally used in reference to the Nazis, but no parallel was drawn, simply the message that to &lt;deleted&gt; just because its easier and someone else is taking the brunt of bad governance (in a way that can also be turned upon you) is a poor choice - I also did clarify this to SahrasBloke.

You still miss the point that just because we can't change things doesn't mean we should not be able to discuss them - as I said already, we can't change hsitory, but people discuss that all the time. Indeed, this would be a fairly quiet forum if we could only discuss things we can change - as would every other forum on the internet!

You WILL get catty replies when you give glib responses that in no way addresses the points made in the posts you quote - likewise, just repeating "if you don't like it go home" (however thinly disguised) - the most overused, boring, and pointless posted response on this forum - isn't a point of debate at all.

mea culpa on this one. I did send a PM, and it was intentionally rude, that is very uncharacteristic of me, but this "yesterday" was doing nothing but carp and cavil and say insulting things about other posters, and was obviously ignorant of the facts and not reading--certainly not understanding--what was being said by other members. Besides that he kept coming back and saying the same things, over and over, and telling us how much better it would be if we were like him, he really knew how to live in this country, and that we were disrespecting the Thais. Troll behavior, serious trolling. I first came to Thailand when I was 21 (now am retired), I speak, read, and write Thai, have many Thai friends all over the country. I love Thailand, respect the culture, and even speak English as little as I can. If I don't think Thailand is perfect, certainly I have a right to discuss the imperfections on a forum like this without being told I'm "whining" and that I should go back where I came from, this from someone who is clearly ignorant of the issues and doesn't even understand the discussion in the first place.

If "yesterday" is reading this, please take it to heart. If you don't like what someone is saying, and you can't make a positive contribution to the thread without putting that person or other posters down, don't say anything. Restrain yourself. This is called maturity. If you read carefully, which is something you should do more of, you'll be able to tell the posters that have more of that admirable quality than others. Learn from them.

Edited May 22, 2011 by montrii

[Kilgore Trout]

Very good suggestion...... Thinking..... I have and will continue to do so......It has helped me with keeping only one job in close to 20 yrs now , not a range of jobs.... Try thinking yourself, maybe you too can keep a job for a while...

Maybe a bit of consideration of good manners wouldn't hurt your case either

You know nothing about me, my job history etc. so stop making assumptions. Your posts have been nagative and inflammatory from the start so don't talk to me about manners. (you have also not answered the main points in my posts; rather you have focused on minor, unimportant details, straying off topic.)

You have been insulting from the beginning. I have actually moved my way up since I started working many years ago; so in line with your attitude and demeanor;

I assume you have been working at the same place for 20 years because:

A. You are not smart enough to receive a better job elsewhere.

B. No other place would have you

C. You are not motivated enough and don't have the minerals to create a good CV and go on interviews.

Not surprising your screen name is the same as a muppet

[sarahsbloke]

You know nothing about me, my job history etc. so stop making assumptions. Your posts have been nagative and inflammatory from the start so don't talk to me about manners. (you have also not answered the main points in my posts; rather you have focused on minor, unimportant details, straying off topic.)

You have been insulting from the beginning. I have actually moved my way up since I started working many years ago; so in line with your attitude and demeanor;

I believe you started insulting me quite early on, do you remember a bible quotation about sowing and reaping?

[montrii]

You know nothing about me, my job history etc. so stop making assumptions. Your posts have been nagative and inflammatory from the start so don't talk to me about manners. (you have also not answered the main points in my posts; rather you have focused on minor, unimportant details, straying off topic.)

You have been insulting from the beginning. I have actually moved my way up since I started working many years ago; so in line with your attitude and demeanor;

I believe you started insulting me quite early on, do you remember a bible quotation about sowing and reaping?

Guys, guys! cut it out! Nobody needs to play the game of "I'm better than you because . . . " or respond to someone who does. I think that if you have a personal beef with someone, keep it off the thread. Keep on topic here . . . private conversations are for PMs, right? If someone is trolling, report them to the moderators. Don't need to involve the rest of everybody. Or we could start a new topic, say "why I'm better than you," then we could all jump in and have a food fight, good clean fun! But come on, it is never about who's more successful at holding a job, or whatever, it's about the quality of the discussion, it's not "who wins," it's a common search for good answers. We're all in this together. Let's try not to step on anyone, and not bring our brittle egos into the forum. Just chill for a minute.

[Kilgore Trout]

You know nothing about me, my job history etc. so stop making assumptions. Your posts have been nagative and inflammatory from the start so don't talk to me about manners. (you have also not answered the main points in my posts; rather you have focused on minor, unimportant details, straying off topic.)

You have been insulting from the beginning. I have actually moved my way up since I started working many years ago; so in line with your attitude and demeanor;

I believe you started insulting me quite early on, do you remember a bible quotation about sowing and reaping?

Enlighten me.

I don't insult people; I respond at times in kind to the way I have been treated; but never insult.

Stay on topic and keep your personal feelings out of it.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Kilgore Trout

[DavidOxon]

Very good suggestion...... Thinking..... I have and will continue to do so......It has helped me with keeping only one job in close to 20 yrs now , not a range of jobs.... Try thinking yourself, maybe you too can keep a job for a while...

Maybe a bit of consideration of good manners wouldn't hurt your case either

You know nothing about me, my job history etc. so stop making assumptions. Your posts have been nagative and inflammatory from the start so don't talk to me about manners. (you have also not answered the main points in my posts; rather you have focused on minor, unimportant details, straying off topic.)

You have been insulting from the beginning. I have actually moved my way up since I started working many years ago; so in line with your attitude and demeanor;

I assume you have been working at the same place for 20 years because:

A. You are not smart enough to receive a better job elsewhere.

B. No other place would have you

C. You are not motivated enough and don't have the minerals to create a good CV and go on interviews.

Not surprising your screen name is the same as a muppet

Gonzo's a nice guy, running a good business,

and is a well respected member of the TV and Chiang Mai community!

You will make few friends by having a pop at him...

David

David

[sarahsbloke]

I believe you started insulting me quite early on, do you remember a bible quotation about sowing and reaping?

No, actually I don't. Are you referring to another topic???

Enlighten me.

I don't insult people; I respond at times in kind to the way I have been treated; but never insult.

Stay on topic and keep your personal feelings out of it.

Post #180, the one where you called me a racist ......

Edited May 22, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[Paagai]

In the last 27 posts the closest we've got to the subject of musicians is Wizard of Oz

Apart from Nicky at Guitar Man are there any Farang musicians still legally playing in Chiang Mai?

[Kilgore Trout]

In the last 27 posts the closest we've got to the subject of musicians is Wizard of Oz

Apart from Nicky at Guitar Man are there any Farang musicians still legally playing in Chiang Mai?

Right on, apologies for getting off topic. I believe this is an important issue and deserves better, from all of us.

[Jezquigleyuk]

If I sang at a Karaoke, how is that different to strumming a few chords? Jamming is a LEISURE activity like golf, photography, shooting pool

[surayu]

If I sang at a Karaoke, how is that different to strumming a few chords? Jamming is a LEISURE activity like golf, photography, shooting pool

One crackdown at a time, please be patient and wait for your turn, they recently opened up some more police station as well to accomodate the demand

[sarahsbloke]

If I sang at a Karaoke, how is that different to strumming a few chords? Jamming is a LEISURE activity like golf, photography, shooting pool

One crackdown at a time, please be patient and wait for your turn, they recently opened up some more police station as well to accomodate the demand

A lot of the Karaoke bars are owned by police, so no danger of a raid there!

[surayu]

A lot of the Karaoke bars are owned by police, so no danger of a raid there!

If there are money flying around, chances are that a Raid will take place at some point.

Do you remember the crackdown for fake softwares in Pantip2 ? where many stalls were in fact owned by the BiB itself and a list with 40 of them, including some high ranking officials, made it to the news but those names were never made public? and strange for a country as Thailand...it just disappeared and everything restarted as usual.

Or even the crackdown from police coming from other districts or the navy cracking down on the police? and no, they where not on a boat

Edit: added pic.

Edited May 22, 2011 by surayu

[wolf5370]

If I sang at a Karaoke, how is that different to strumming a few chords? Jamming is a LEISURE activity like golf, photography, shooting pool

I guess if you were to play pool or golf in a tournament at a club that charged to watch (either by entrance fee or requirement to purchase goods to stay and watch) - then this would be a fair analogy. I don't think anyone would be arrested at singing at a Thai run karaoke place - unless they were acting as compare or something.

I do believe the law is totally flawed, but so far I have only seen it persuited with logic by immigration (and I'm not saying any of the players were guilty, only that it is not so illogical that immigration might think they were - actual guilt is for the courts to decide).

[buddhalady]

To quote a previous post, not sure that those expats who married Thais and now have children are in the position of having a 'free choice as to whether to stay here or go home'. Of course, I've no idea whether or not guys in this position are jamming in bars here.

Secondly, how many of you guys have bought condos or leased land and built homes - tricky to sell right now or so I'm told - the sale price of which might be a strong factor in the decision to re-establish in the West?

Choices, maybe, but free choices? I wonder.

Lastly, rather than slagging off, please let's go on addressing the issue - a controversial law - interpreted at will with the usual degree of Thai flexibility - which may or may not be fair, right or affect more of the expat community in the future.

Too many posts giving necessary information as well as opinions seem to have been discontinued for getting too close to the bone in these difficult days. An understandable reaction, perhaps less than appreciated by some concerned members.

[Jezquigleyuk]

If I sang at a Karaoke, how is that different to strumming a few chords? Jamming is a LEISURE activity like golf, photography, shooting pool

I guess if you were to play pool or golf in a tournament at a club that charged to watch (either by entrance fee or requirement to purchase goods to stay and watch) - then this would be a fair analogy. I don't think anyone would be arrested at singing at a Thai run karaoke place - unless they were acting as compare or something.

I do believe the law is totally flawed, but so far I have only seen it persuited with logic by immigration (and I'm not saying any of the players were guilty, only that it is not so illogical that immigration might think they were - actual guilt is for the courts to decide).

I'm not arguing that people should be allowed to work without permits, but I am aggrieved that unlike most people I can not take part in my chosen leisure activity just because it involves a musical instrument and not a golf club, karaoke machine, pool cue or bible.

[Jezquigleyuk]

ps. Thank you for the implied compliment, but trust me, there isn't a person in the world that would pay to watch me play ;-)

[RusticCharm]

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

Shockingly racist post as a previous poster had pointed out. Your post reeks of 'Thais are superior to 'whites' and you come across as total wanabee.

'Thai rock', eh? The majority of Thai rock is laughable. Assanee/Wasan and Lam Morrison the exceptions.

'Men don't pour drinks in Thai bars'? Wow! How macho of them. Bet these are the same type of guys who would roundly abuse any woman seen taking an interest in a westerner or should I say, a 'white'. 

I assume from your poster name that you're male, though your avatar leads me to believe otherwise. Please let us know the outcome when you make eye contact with the wrong Thai woman in this place and get set upon by a brave Thai backed up by a dozen of his mates, of course.

[montrii]

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

Shockingly racist post as a previous poster had pointed out. Your post reeks of 'Thais are superior to 'whites' and you come across as total wanabee.

'Thai rock', eh? The majority of Thai rock is laughable. Assanee/Wasan and Lam Morrison the exceptions.

'Men don't pour drinks in Thai bars'? Wow! How macho of them. Bet these are the same type of guys who would roundly abuse any woman seen taking an interest in a westerner or should I say, a 'white'.

I assume from your poster name that you're male, though your avatar leads me to believe otherwise. Please let us know the outcome when you make eye contact with the wrong Thai woman in this place and get set upon by a brave Thai backed up by a dozen of his mates, of course.

Aaaarghhhh! Rustic, where's your charm? He wrote that 5 days ago! Your post sounds alarmingly like road rage to me! Hey, nobody needs to get worked up over a few loose words . . . at least I hope nobody does! Charm us, Rustic!

Edited May 22, 2011 by montrii

[sarahsbloke]

I assume from your poster name that you're male, though your avatar leads me to believe otherwise. Please let us know the outcome when you make eye contact with the wrong Thai woman in this place and get set upon by a brave Thai backed up by a dozen of his mates, of course.

Never had that problem, most Thai men I've encountered are happy to share.

To many Thai men. drinking seems to be a far more important activity than womanizing.

Sometimes it costs a few drinks, but then you can go way further than eye contact.

I guess a timid western male who can't speak any Thai might get into trouble though, if you're that worried, don't enter such places.

PS

One of my pals started groping a Thai girl when her boyfriend was sitting at the table.

Load of girls and only a few guys so we got confused over who was with who at the start.

I was chatting with the guy, 'my pal's groping your girl, don't you mind?', I asked.

'As long as your pal keeps paying for the beer, he can do what he likes with her', was the reply.

PPS

My avatar is a well known anime male character that just happens to look like me.

Edited May 22, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[venturalaw]

I assume from your poster name that you're male, though your avatar leads me to believe otherwise. Please let us know the outcome when you make eye contact with the wrong Thai woman in this place and get set upon by a brave Thai backed up by a dozen of his mates, of course.

Never had that problem, most Thai men I've encountered are happy to share.

To many Thai men. drinking seems to be a far more important activity than womanizing.

Sometimes it costs a few drinks, but then you can go way further than eye contact.

I guess a timid western male who can't speak any Thai might get into trouble though, if you're that worried, don't enter such places.

PS

One of my pals started groping a Thai girl when her boyfriend was sitting at the table.

Load of girls and only a few guys so we got confused over who was with who at the start.

I was chatting with the guy, 'my pal's groping your girl, don't you mind?', I asked.

'As long as your pal keeps paying for the beer, he can do what he likes with her', was the reply.

PPS

My avatar is a well known anime male character that just happens to look like me.

"I was chatting with the guy, 'my pal's groping your girl, don't you mind?', I asked.

'As long as your pal keeps paying for the beer, he can do what he likes with her', was the reply."

Do you really enjoy communing with people who have have this mind set? To each his own, but I'm trying to understand, that is why I ask.

Edited May 22, 2011 by venturalaw

[sarahsbloke]

Do you really enjoy communing with people who have have this mind set? To each his own, but I'm trying to understand, that is why I ask.

Hard to predict someone's mindset before you talk to them!

[venturalaw]

Do you really enjoy communing with people who have have this mind set? To each his own, but I'm trying to understand, that is why I ask.

Hard to predict someone's mindset before you talk to them!

It was my understanding that you prefer to spend your time with poor Thai men that drink. Given the venue where they usually congregate, it's not a stretch that you would encounter this type of response. Or were you really surprised?

[Loaded]

If I sang at a Karaoke, how is that different to strumming a few chords? Jamming is a LEISURE activity like golf, photography, shooting pool

One crackdown at a time, please be patient and wait for your turn, they recently opened up some more police station as well to accomodate the demand

A lot of the Karaoke bars are owned by police, so no danger of a raid there!

Nobody will be arrested at a karaoke bar because if you are singing, you have paid for the privilege and there is no way that this could be construed as work. And this may be the loophole bar owners can use: if a foreign musician pays for the privilege of playing, they cannot possibly be working. What happens away from the bar regarding the exchange of cash between the bar owner and the musician (if any) would be irrelevant if the musician has a receipt for his payment for the privilege of playing IE an entrance fee. It sounds far-fetched, but I have seen similar solutions to problems from Thais. We live in a Thai world.

[sarahsbloke]

Do you really enjoy communing with people who have have this mind set? To each his own, but I'm trying to understand, that is why I ask.

Hard to predict someone's mindset before you talk to them!

It was my understanding that you prefer to spend your time with poor Thai men that drink. Given the venue where they usually congregate, it's not a stretch that you would encounter this type of response. Or were you really surprised?

Most of the Thai population is poor by our standards.

I'm happy to hang out anywhere where I don't have to listen to an amateur playing 'Hotel California', mix with aging Thai prostitutes and buy beer at twice the normal price.

[venturalaw]

Do you really enjoy communing with people who have have this mind set? To each his own, but I'm trying to understand, that is why I ask.

Hard to predict someone's mindset before you talk to them!

It was my understanding that you prefer to spend your time with poor Thai men that drink. Given the venue where they usually congregate, it's not a stretch that you would encounter this type of response. Or were you really surprised?

Most of the Thai population is poor by our standards.

I'm happy to hang out anywhere where I don't have to listen to an amateur playing 'Hotel California', mix with aging Thai prostitutes and buy beer at twice the normal price.

I feel the same way. But fortunately I have been able to locate places that do not have aging Thai prostitutes or ignorant drunks willingly exchanging their ladies for beer consumption. Frankly, for me, listening to Hotel California would be preferable.

[KimoMax]

Nobody will be arrested at a karaoke bar because if you are singing, you have paid for the privilege and there is no way that this could be construed as work. And this may be the loophole bar owners can use: if a foreign musician pays for the privilege of playing, they cannot possibly be working. What happens away from the bar regarding the exchange of cash between the bar owner and the musician (if any) would be irrelevant if the musician has a receipt for his payment for the privilege of playing IE an entrance fee. It sounds far-fetched, but I have seen similar solutions to problems from Thais. We live in a Thai world.

Best idea I have heard so far to get over the loophole of working or recreational fun.

Pay 5 baht or whatever (with a receipt) to Jam, and no courtesy drinks or compensation from the bar owners.

[DavidOxon]

Best idea I have heard so far to get over the loophole of working or recreational fun.

Pay 5 baht or whatever (with a receipt) to Jam, and no courtesy drinks or compensation from the bar owners.

It has been mooted amongst 'the unclean'!

David

[DavidOxon]

Hi.....

Situation update.

The main guy they were after was in court on Thursday.

After pleading guilty to playing (working) illegally, he got 1000 baht fine and a one years good behaviour bond.

Seems like a slap on the wrist really, must have cost immigration a lot more th bring the case than that!

So.... just waiting for the guy with 1.5 years overstay next!

David