Helping Friend Switch From Voa To Retirement Visa

[NancyL]

I'm helping an American friend turn his visa on arrival into a one-year O-A retirement visa. His VOA expires on 14 May. He can't get an appointment at the American consulate in CM for the income verification letter until May 10. His plan is to visit Immigration after he gets the income letter, get the forms he needs, fill 'em out and get all the copies and photos made on May 10. Then, he plans to return to CM Immigration bright and early on May 11 in the hopes of getting his O-A retirement visa and not having to leave the country when his VOA expires on 14 May.

Is this plan workable? I've read some things on the forum about needing to have a certain period of time remaining on a visa in order for Immigration to grant an O-A retirement visa. Meanwhile, we've sent an email to the American Consulate in CM to see if he can get in before May 10, but that may not be possible because of the various holidays coming up.

Another option would be for him to go to U.S. Bangkok Embassy for the income verification, but their next appointment opening is May 4, which may not give him enough extra days to get convert the VOA, if some time has to be remaining on the VOA.

I hope this isn't too confusing. Thank you for your help.

Edited April 30, 2011 by NancyL

[InterestedObserver]

Your plan is extremely tight, timing wise. As far as workable goes, have you asked CM immigration what they think of it? He may need to make a local visa run to gain some time.

[lopburi3]

He has a visa exempt entry now as Americans are not allowed visa on arrival. He wants to convert to a non immigrant entry and then extend his stay for retirement (one year) (that is not an O-A visa).

You should check with Chiang Mai immigration. Bangkok has recently said they would accept conversion up to the day before expiration of stay but it used to require 21 days and have recently seen both 15 and 7 days mentioned so not sure all are using the same play-book.

[NancyL]

Thanks Lopburi and IO. He's made one trip to CM Immigration to find out the requirements to remain on the one-year retirement extension of stay. (Thanks for correcting my terminology, Lopburi, I suspected I wasn't using the correct terms.) I think most of his visit focused on why he couldn't just show them the financial statements from his various non-Thai investments and income streams to prove his financial worth. I doubt he asked how much time should be remaining on his current permission to stay in order to convert it to a one-year retirement permission to stay.

I'll see if he's up for another visit to Immigration next week to check out the plan. Will the Immigration offices be closed on Monday?

At worse, it looks like he could show up at Immigration on May 11 with his newly-signed Income Verification letter and if Immigration says "mai dai", he'd still have time to make a visa run before his current permission to stay expires on May 14.

Edited April 30, 2011 by NancyL

[Jingthing]

Your plan sounds too tight but it's up to the office.

Another point, SOME immigration offices (rather illogically) require applicants using the income letter only to financially qualify to ALSO show a Thai bank account and an immigration letter from the bank (matching the balance) as well. Not sure about CM, but you should find out if you need that as well. If they do require the bank letter, they will want that to be very fresh, typically the previous day and I have even heard of requiring it the same day. Again, that policy varies office to office.

These are bank holidays in Thailand, so I do think immigration will be closed Monday --

Monday 2 May Substitution for National Labour Day

(Sunday 1 May)

Thursday 5 May Coronation Day

If you really to take the time pressure off, the expat could go to the embassy in Laos and get a single entry O based on being over 50 with retirement intentions (good for a 90 day stay) and then he wouldn't even need to do the change of visa status step in Thailand. Then with 30 days left on the O, go for the annual retirement extension.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

Another option and certainly no worse than going from CM to Vientiane PDR Lao is to just go to the US Embassy in Bangkok 2 or 3 MAY and get the letter a week or so earlier than 10 MAY in CM and then have that extra week to deal with the Thai IMM Folks and their proclivities in CM

[NancyL]

The earliest appointment available for the Bangkok embassy is May 4 and there are only two slots available. May 5 is a holiday, so the earliest he'd be able to go to CM Immigration with an income verification letter would be Friday, May 6. I'd hate to advise him to take a trip to Bangkok only to be told by CM Immigration that he still doesn't have enough time remaining on is initial 30 permission to stay and has to do a visa run.

I'm hoping he gets a reply from the CM consulate soon to see if they can work him in before May 10.

[Tod Daniels]

While the earliest appointment for ACS in Bangkok when you look online, may indeed be May 4th; if he showed up on the 2nd or 3rd without an appointment he wouldn't have a problem. ACS just processes people who walk in via a numbered queue system.

No matter what the website says; a LOT of people routinely show up there with no appointment booked! I was there last week with an American who had no appointment and he was in/out in about 30 minutes!

Now depending on the volume of people there he might hafta sit a bit, but he'll definitely get his 'verification of income' letter that day, from the ACS (American Citizens Services) at the US Embassy in Bangkok.

I think it'd be worth getting the US letter as fast as he can, AND then hitting C/M Immigrations the first week in May say just before or just after Coronation Day (the 5th).

This would buy him time should they require 'additional documentation' for anything.

Different Thai Immigration offices (and even different officers IN those offices) can be quite persnickety on what they want.

Right now he's looking at a 'two step process', getting a 90 day Non-Immigrant Type-O Visa and then applying for a year long extension of stay based on retirement.

Some Thai Immigrations offices do them both at the same time while you're there, other offices will issue you the 90 day Non-Immigrant Type-O Visa and make you come back when you have about a month left on it to then apply for the year long extension of stay.

If they do the second way I outlined, he'll most likely need ANOTHER verification letter from ACS; as Immigrations keeps the original one.

That’s the best I can do, but I’m SURE he can just show up at the US Embassy here in Bangkok without an appointment and get the letter next week any day they’re open.

P/S: One last thing, as he's NEVER applied for a Non-O or a yearly extension of stay, (although I could be wrong on this ) I think he could go to Changwattana, right after he got the letter from the US Embassy and do it there. It might even be easier than Chiang Mai Immigrations.

Edited April 30, 2011 by tod-daniels

[NancyL]

Argh, tod-daniels, now you really have me concerned!

First, will the ACS at American Bangkok Embassy be available on Monday, May 2? That's a Thai holiday and the American Consulate here in Chiang Mai seems to close for all Thai holidays.

I posted in the CM forum to see if the Am. Consulate can do walk-ins during their normal ACS time and the consensus is that they don't. Someone wisely suggested that he show up during the next ACS and see if he can get in for the notarization, based on the knowledge that walk-ins can be done in Bangkok. He did send an email to the ACS in CM but I doubt he'll get a reply before their next ACS time.

But what really got me concerned tod-daniels are your comments that, at best, he'll first receive a 90-day non-immigrant type O and then may have to wait two months before obtaining a one-year retirement extension. He unwisely sent 78 kilos of personal stuff to his new Thai address upon leaving the U.S. Of course, now that's being held in a Fedex/customs warehouse somewhere near BKK until he can either cough up nearly 43,000 baht duty or provide proof that he can legally remain in the Kingdom for 1 year.

A bit of my background -- Hubby and I applied for O-A visas before leaving the U.S. about three years ago. When they arrived, just days before we were scheduled to move to Thailand, Hubby got an O-A but I got the 90 day O. We figured we'd get it sorted out once we got here. We also stupidly air expressed stuff to Thailand before we had the visa situation sorted out, only our stuff ended up in Chiang Mai airport customs, which is probably worse than being held by Fedex at BKK. CM customs wanted to impose duty because I didn't have a 12 month permission to stay and the shipment was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Hubby. They claimed if it had been sent to just Mr. Hubby or Mr. OR Mrs. Hubby, then Hubby could have claimed our stuff as household goods for a new retiree and not paid duty.

After getting the income letter from the CM Am Consulate (they allowed walk-ins then), I went to CM Immigration and they granted me a 12 month retirement permission even though my 90 day O-A visa was quite fresh. Then, and only then, were we able to overcome the big objection of the CM airport customs and get our stuff at a reasonable price.

That's part of why I'm helping this guy. Been there, done that, kind of, although I had a 90 day visa and not a 30 day airport permission like he does.

Edited April 30, 2011 by NancyL

[lopburi3]

I believe the US Embassy will be open Monday as it is not a government holiday to my knowledge. It will be closed on the 5th however.

[Pib]

While the earliest appointment for ACS in Bangkok when you look online, may indeed be May 4th; if he showed up on the 2nd or 3rd without an appointment he wouldn't have a problem. ACS just processes people who walk in via a numbered queue system.

No matter what the website says; a LOT of people routinely show up there with no appointment booked! I was there last week with an American who had no appointment and he was in/out in about 30 minutes!

Now depending on the volume of people there he might hafta sit a bit, but he'll definitely get his 'verification of income' letter that day, from the ACS (American Citizens Services) at the US Embassy in Bangkok.

Yeap, that's been my experience at ACS from both just walking in and making an appointment. For an income letter, it probably wouldn't make a difference of even an 1 hour in the waiting time...I fully expect he would be in and out well within 2 hours, probably well within 1 hour of walking in the door (I'm not counting any waiting time for the doors to open). For me in getting an income letter, the difference in waiting time between just walking in and having an appointment was only about 15-20 minutes. But I expect for other types of more complicated services, an appointment would save very significant time. And having an appt makes it nice in terms of not having to wait for your queue number to be called. Would probably be best to show up for the morning open period if doing the walk-in. Please note if going to ACS Bangkok that two waiting lines exist at the street/security entrance; one for Americans and one for other nationalities but the sign outside ain't really clear about that; if American, be sure to get in the American line to greatly speed up getting through security so you can get to the offices inside.

[Tod Daniels]

I believe the US Embassy will be open Monday as it is not a government holiday to my knowledge. It will be closed on the 5th however.

You’re correct; “lopburi3”; here’s the blurb off the ACS Bangkok website’

The American Citizen Services Unit at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok will be closed for staff in-service training on April 28 and 29. Only emergency services will be available on those days. Normal operations will resume on May 2.

To the O/P; sorry if I made the water more murky.

It’s my personal experience at Changwattana, after accompanying more ‘acquaintances’ that I can even remember, who were attempting to do the exact same thing you’re outlining that (and please remember; this is ONLY what I've seen IN Bangkok!);

Sometimes they issue BOTH the conversion to a single entry, 90 day, Non-Immigrant, Type-O visa AND the yearly extension of stay base on retirement at the same time (giving the person actually a year and three months here before the next renewal).

BUT THEN AGAIN:

Sometimes they issue ONLY the single entry, 90 day, Non-Immigrant, Type-O visa AND make the person come back after they’ve burned up about 60 days of the time on that visa. Then they'll issue the yearly extension of stay based on retirement.

Sadly, I have personally seen it go BOTH ways with NO rhyme or reason. The applicants ALL submitted the exact same documentation to the exact SAME Thai Immigrations officer (the one I usually deal with all the time when I go there).

When I questioned her about why she did it one way sometimes and the other way other times; she told me in Thai, and this is almost a word for word translation; “It depends on how I feel about the applicant.” That would lead me to believe there is a GREAT deal of leeway given to the individual officers to make what ever call on it they want to.

What I AM sure about is; your friend could show up without an appointment at ACS in Bangkok and get the letter. Now can they do that in Chiang Mai, dunno, sorry.

[NancyL]

Thanks for the clarification, tod-daniels. I sure hope he can get the long-term permission to stay right off the bat. He looks like a very nice, genial, well-mannered older gentleman, dresses well, appears to have good financial resources (I think -- that's not really any of my business). I can certainly understand the immigration officer sometimes has doubts based upon the dodgy retirees I see at the immigration office. I think he comes across as exactly the type of "quality retiree" the Thai government wants to encourage.

Do you think it would help (or hurt) his case with the immigration officer if he mentions that his personal belongings are being held by Fedex/customs until he can either pay a hefty duty charge or produce a long-term permission to stay in the kingdom?

[rawhod]

[

To the O/P; sorry if I made the water more murky.

It's my personal experience at Changwattana, after accompanying more 'acquaintances' that I can even remember, who were attempting to do the exact same thing you're outlining that (and please remember; this is ONLY what I've seen IN Bangkok!);

Sometimes they issue BOTH the conversion to a single entry, 90 day, Non-Immigrant, Type-O visa AND the yearly extension of stay base on retirement at the same time (giving the person actually a year and three months here before the next renewal).

BUT THEN AGAIN:

Sometimes they issue ONLY the single entry, 90 day, Non-Immigrant, Type-O visa AND make the person come back after they've burned up about 60 days of the time on that visa. Then they'll issue the yearly extension of stay based on retirement.

Sadly, I have personally seen it go BOTH ways with NO rhyme or reason. The applicants ALL submitted the exact same documentation to the exact SAME Thai Immigrations officer (the one I usually deal with all the time when I go there).

When I questioned her about why she did it one way sometimes and the other way other times; she told me in Thai, and this is almost a word for word translation; "It depends on how I feel about the applicant." That would lead me to believe there is a GREAT deal of leeway given to the individual officers to make what ever call on it they want to.

What I AM sure about is; your friend could show up without an appointment at ACS in Bangkok and get the letter. Now can they do that in Chiang Mai, dunno, sorry.

I changed my Tourist visa to Non-Imm O at Chiang Mai recently and asked ifhey would do the retirement extension at the same time..."No, you have to return in 60 days with a new British Consulate letter" was the reply...