Alcoholism

[Sheryl]

However, a willingness to suppress bickering and argument would be helpful "...personal recovery depends upon AA unity'.

On the other hand, here on TV, futile bickering and narrow-minded abuse is mandatory, I believe....

SC

You'd certainly think so from some of the posts I have just had to delete. Last warning:

keep it civil :jap:

no personal attacks

[Mobi]

Speaking as a poster, clearly neither the OP nor some of the others on this thread at all understand what Kerry has tried to explain. I also tried to explain this one time but for what it is worth, will try again.

With respect, maybe it is you and kerryk who do not understand what I am saying.

Of course I understand the transformative, life changing experience that is felt when an individual embraces his or her Higher Power. How is it that I have read just about every piece of literature issued by AA along with a mountain of meditational and other spiritual literature, without getting a grasp of what its all about?

No one can read 'They came to Believe' one of AA's simple books containing people's stories from all over the world and from different walks of life about how they came to believe in their Higher power, without comprehending what it is they are telling you?

You seem to think that because I don't accept that I don't understand. You might be interested to know that one of the therapists that you once recommended to me has very similar views to my own - and he is a very learned man on this subject. Are you suggesting that he too doesn't understand?

We believe that your spiritual transformation has occurred because of your personal need for it to occur - within your own being, as away to 'save' you from yourself or maybe to make you feel at peace with yourself. We understand that you believe that this is your Higher Power at work, but we think that in this you are, perhaps,somewhat mistaken. But in the end it doesn't really matter. If you believe it and it works for you, then fine. Good luck.

[StreetCowboy]

A flaming post and then a flaming reply to it have both been deleted.

I guess some people have a burning desire to share...

SC

EDIT: And to add some semblance of participation in the debate: Does it matter whether it / he exists, so long as the results are achieved?

[trisailer]

One day at a time. Nobody graduates from AA. There is only today.

I disagree that the length of time in AA makes one less likely to drink. A very good friend of mine had 18 years of sobrity and was Mr AA in our town until he started drinking again.

You are never more than one drink away.

[kerryk]

One day at a time. Nobody graduates from AA. There is only today.

I disagree that the length of time in AA makes one less likely to drink. A very good friend of mine had 18 years of sobrity and was Mr AA in our town until he started drinking again.

You are never more than one drink away.

Are you saying that a person with 18 years of sobriety has the same odds of drinking today as a person with 4 months of sobriety?

Let me put it another way. We both go to a bookmaker in Vegas and ask him to give us odds for two people drinking today. One has not had a drink in 18 years and the other has not had a drink in 4 months. Do you think the bookmaker will give us the same odds for both people?

[kerryk]

Speaking as a poster, clearly neither the OP nor some of the others on this thread at all understand what Kerry has tried to explain. I also tried to explain this one time but for what it is worth, will try again.

With respect, maybe it is you and kerryk who do not understand what I am saying.

Of course I understand the transformative, life changing experience that is felt when an individual embraces his or her Higher Power. How is it that I have read just about every piece of literature issued by AA along with a mountain of meditational and other spiritual literature, without getting a grasp of what its all about?

No one can read 'They came to Believe' one of AA's simple books containing people's stories from all over the world and from different walks of life about how they came to believe in their Higher power, without comprehending what it is they are telling you?

You seem to think that because I don't accept that I don't understand. You might be interested to know that one of the therapists that you once recommended to me has very similar views to my own - and he is a very learned man on this subject. Are you suggesting that he too doesn't understand?

We believe that your spiritual transformation has occurred because of your personal need for it to occur - within your own being, as away to 'save' you from yourself or maybe to make you feel at peace with yourself. We understand that you believe that this is your Higher Power at work, but we think that in this you are, perhaps,somewhat mistaken. But in the end it doesn't really matter. If you believe it and it works for you, then fine. Good luck.

Do you think you would be able to find a higher power if you wanted to?

[trisailer]

"Are you saying that a person with 18 years of sobriety has the same odds of drinking today as a person with 4 months of sobriety?"

Yes, both are one drink away. The impulse control in the brain that allows one to choose not to drink or to take a drink never changes.

If you go to a bookmaker in Vegas he will give you odds and you can make a bet based upon those odds. If you take the time to read the science you will see as I just did the the odds of staying away from alcohol are the same with or without AA. A smart gambler plays the odds. Like you I also believed that the odds were better in AA but that is not what the science is saying.

I think that it demands constant vigilance to avoid taking that first drink.

[kerryk]

"Are you saying that a person with 18 years of sobriety has the same odds of drinking today as a person with 4 months of sobriety?"

Yes, both are one drink away. The impulse control in the brain that allows one to choose not to drink or to take a drink never changes.

If you go to a bookmaker in Vegas he will give you odds and you can make a bet based upon those odds. If you take the time to read the science you will see as I just did the the odds of staying away from alcohol are the same with or without AA. A smart gambler plays the odds. Like you I also believed that the odds were better in AA but that is not what the science is saying.

I think that it demands constant vigilance to avoid taking that first drink.

I have ten friends in AA that I have known for 20 years. They have not had a drink. I have met 1000 newcomers to AA they have all had a drink.

I think we are a bit apart on this issue.

[RickThai]

"A young recruit goes into combat for the first time. He hears shooting and sees death all around him. Kind of like an alcoholic sees the destruction that booze created in his life. The young soldier can debate all of the orders he receives. He can think about all the commands from higher up and debate the validity of the instructions. Or, he can place his trust in the grizzled old sergeant who has seen many wars. That old sergeant becomes his higher power. He puts absolute faith in the man. He gives up his free will and tells the sarge, "you tell me to do it and I will do it." One soldier who is an intellectual thinks he can figure it out by himself. When the sergeant tells the troops to "hit the dirt." The intellectual thinks about the mines that might be planted in the soil and looks before he takes cover. The other who considers the sarge his higher power takes cover immediately. The intellectual gets shot and the soldier who has given up his free will remains alive. It is kind of like that."

Based upon my experience as a soldier in combat, during training recruits are "conditioned" to obey orders. They are also trained that legally they are required to obey "all legal orders". They are also "conditioned" on how to react to combat situations.

Once in 'real' combat, they learn their best chance of survival is by learning what the experienced soldiers do. When faced with 'incoming rounds (bullets, rockets, mortars, etc.), they 'react' instantly without waiting for a sergeant or anything to tell them. Soldiers quickly learn that some sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, etc. are complete idiots and will get you killed in a heartbeat.

The reality that any soldier in combat learns, is that fate has more to do with your survival than anything else. Special Ops (Rangers, Special Forces, Delta, Seals, Force Recon, etc.) are probably the best trained combat soldiers in the world, but many of them bleed and die just like the dumbest private or gyrine in the military.

During my years of military service, I have never found any soldier who believed that Sergeants, etc were any form of "higher power".

That my experience (as a retired Captain).

RickThai

Be that as it may did you understand my point that a higher power in AA does not have to be a God or supreme being type of entity?

Not really, but I am really trying. Reading Sheryl''s definition of a 'higher power', I can only gather it has to be 'outside' of yourself' based upon a 'feeling' that you experienced. It also cannot be understood? Sheryl, care to elaborate?

It might not be a God (or Gods), perhaps it could be anything as long as you believed strongly enough and had the 'feeling' to match?

It seems to me the common denominator is simply 'faith'. I don't know if that automatically excludes 'faith' in your own will power?

Drinking or not drinking, smoking or not smoking, has to be an actual act that is continually perpetuated. If you have a strong enough 'faith' in your own ability to never drink again, and you don't drink again. I would say that the proof is in the pudding and that is your reality and no matter what anyone says or thinks, they can't take that away from you.

If you're faith is rooted in a belief in a supreme being or power(s) and you 'know' inside that that is the only way you can not drink (or smoke), than that is your reality.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to participate in many varied 'religous' and/or spirtual proceedings.

I became a blood brother with a full-blooded Apache during a ceremony that involves stones, blood, and ancient Apache intonations.

I have attended the coronation of John Paul I in St. Peter's square.

I have stood in the Mormon Church and listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in Salt Lake City Utah.

I have particpated in satanic rituals in a great, old mansion, overlooking Puget Sound in Washington State.

I have been blessed in Bhuddists temples in Taiwan and in Thailand.

I have sit in on Hindu ceremonies.

I have walked the ancient city of Pompei and strove to understand the faith of the early Romans.

I have been baptized under the Southern Baptist auspices.

I have also experienced tantric spirituality combined with voodooism on a Carribean Island.

Bottom line: All of these experiences involved the same 'transformative experience' of spiritual belief and realness.

So perhaps, spiritually is not dependent upon any outside, 'higher power', but is merely a manifestation of each indivdual's inate spiritual power?

Just a thought.

RickThai

[RickThai]

"A young recruit goes into combat for the first time. He hears shooting and sees death all around him. Kind of like an alcoholic sees the destruction that booze created in his life. The young soldier can debate all of the orders he receives. He can think about all the commands from higher up and debate the validity of the instructions. Or, he can place his trust in the grizzled old sergeant who has seen many wars. That old sergeant becomes his higher power. He puts absolute faith in the man. He gives up his free will and tells the sarge, "you tell me to do it and I will do it." One soldier who is an intellectual thinks he can figure it out by himself. When the sergeant tells the troops to "hit the dirt." The intellectual thinks about the mines that might be planted in the soil and looks before he takes cover. The other who considers the sarge his higher power takes cover immediately. The intellectual gets shot and the soldier who has given up his free will remains alive. It is kind of like that."

Based upon my experience as a soldier in combat, during training recruits are "conditioned" to obey orders. They are also trained that legally they are required to obey "all legal orders". They are also "conditioned" on how to react to combat situations.

Once in 'real' combat, they learn their best chance of survival is by learning what the experienced soldiers do. When faced with 'incoming rounds (bullets, rockets, mortars, etc.), they 'react' instantly without waiting for a sergeant or anything to tell them. Soldiers quickly learn that some sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, etc. are complete idiots and will get you killed in a heartbeat.

The reality that any soldier in combat learns, is that fate has more to do with your survival than anything else. Special Ops (Rangers, Special Forces, Delta, Seals, Force Recon, etc.) are probably the best trained combat soldiers in the world, but many of them bleed and die just like the dumbest private or gyrine in the military.

During my years of military service, I have never found any soldier who believed that Sergeants, etc were any form of "higher power".

That my experience (as a retired Captain).

RickThai

Be that as it may did you understand my point that a higher power in AA does not have to be a God or supreme being type of entity?

Not really, but I am really trying. Reading Sheryl''s definition of a 'higher power', I can only gather it has to be 'outside' of yourself' based upon a 'feeling' that you experienced. It also cannot be understood? Sheryl, care to elaborate?

It might not be a God (or Gods), perhaps it could be anything as long as you believed strongly enough and had the 'feeling' to match?

It seems to me the common denominator is simply 'faith'. I don't know if that automatically excludes 'faith' in your own will power?

Drinking or not drinking, smoking or not smoking, has to be an actual act that is continually perpetuated. If you have a strong enough 'faith' in your own ability to never drink again, and you don't drink again. I would say that the proof is in the pudding and that is your reality and no matter what anyone says or thinks, they can't take that away from you.

If you're faith is rooted in a belief in a supreme being or power(s) and you 'know' inside that that is the only way you can not drink (or smoke), than that is your reality.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to participate in many varied 'religous' and/or spirtual proceedings.

I became a blood brother with a full-blooded Apache during a ceremony that involves stones, blood, and ancient Apache intonations.

I have attended the coronation of John Paul I in St. Peter's square.

I have stood in the Mormon Church and listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in Salt Lake City Utah.

I have particpated in satanic rituals in a great, old mansion, overlooking Puget Sound in Washington State.

I have been blessed in Bhuddists temples in Taiwan and in Thailand.

I have sit in on Hindu ceremonies.

I have walked the ancient city of Pompei and strove to understand the faith of the early Romans.

I have been baptized under the Southern Baptist auspices.

I have also experienced tantric spirituality combined with voodooism on a Carribean Island.

Bottom line: All of these experiences involved the same 'transformative experience' of spiritual belief and realness.

So perhaps, spiritually is not dependent upon any outside, 'higher power', but is merely a manifestation of each indivdual's inate spiritual power?

Just a thought.

RickThai

[kerryk]

People seem to make something simple very complicated. There are a few anti AA websites that information has been quoted from in this thread.

My point of view is simple. There are a couple of million AA members all over the world that are willing to help others stop drinking. It seems terribly obvious to me that if one wants to stop drinking you have to hang around with other people who want to stop drinking and AA is there for that.

Because my parents forced religion on me from a young age I tend to be anti religious and spend as little time discussing religion as possible. As a consequence of that I spend very little time in AA discussing higher powers. It is simply not my thing. If a guy at an AA meeting wanted to talk about a higher power I would refer him to someone else who liked to talk about that sort of thing.

I like being able to have a social life without booze and that is difficult in some places in Thailand. Buddhism in Thailand works for me because it doesn't remind me of Catholicism. Thai women seem to accept my not drinking easily especially if I toss in a couple of comments about going to the Wat and making merit. I guess I am not the smartest guy on the block because it took me five years of not drinking before I felt strong enough to go into a bar and have a soda.

Talking about a higher power makes me a bit uncomfortable because I really don't understand it that well. It is enough for me to know that it works for me.

I would hate to think that some guy who was going to go to an AA meeting was turned off by reading the comments in this thread. The posters who don't go to AA meetings in this thread have all stated positive things about AA but a reader would still grasp the subtle undertone of, “I know more about staying sober than AA and you are a weak person if you have to go to meetings.” That is the only reason I have tried to make a rebuttal to some of the comments.

I am a lazy guy. AA is simply the easiest way to stop drinking in Thailand. Got a big ego, want to be responsible for your own actions? Want to be a real man and do the research personally and tough out the problems with not drinking alone? Good, go ahead and do your own thing. Pay a shrink to help you and get the executive cure.

I am just a lazy old drunk. I go to AA meetings and socialize with AA people and I don't drink. I don't worry about not drinking. I sleep well at night and wake up fresh in the morning. It has been 20 years since I have had the shakes and my sex life is fine.

I figure since I have lived in Thailand AA has saved me 1,314,000 baht and that is a lot of fun money available that would have gone down the toilet. Like Mobi I like the ladies so I don't have a lot to show for the 1.314,000 baht except memories.

[GrahamF]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

I wonder if these studies have a breakdown of recidivism of those who have worked the steps from the big book, those who have "sort of worked the steps," those who attend meetings regularly but have not worked the steps, those who don't attend AA meetings regularly, etc, etc. I have heard that in the early days of AA, and no I can't prove it, that they claimed that they had a 50% success rate with alcoholics who "thoroughly followed the path", another 25% relapsed and came back and stopped drinking after doing the steps again and of the last 25% they claim that those who kept coming back did manage to cut back on their drinking. I would like to see a breakout of those studies results. I can't verify AA's early claims but I have heard from quite a few people who did not work the steps originally that they did in fact relapse and when they came back and worked the steps from the big book, with a sponsor, that their sobriety was very different from before and to the best of my knowledge all those people are still sober.

FYI, the courts can in fact mandate attendance at AA meetings as part of sentencing, at least here in the US. A friend of mine got his 2nd DUI, spent 30 days in jail and is on probation for a year and must attend at least 3 AA meetings a week. I have signed quite a few attendance verification forms when I have chaired meetings.

[kerryk]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

I wonder if these studies have a breakdown of recidivism of those who have worked the steps from the big book, those who have "sort of worked the steps," those who attend meetings regularly but have not worked the steps, those who don't attend AA meetings regularly, etc, etc. I have heard that in the early days of AA, and no I can't prove it, that they claimed that they had a 50% success rate with alcoholics who "thoroughly followed the path", another 25% relapsed and came back and stopped drinking after doing the steps again and of the last 25% they claim that those who kept coming back did manage to cut back on their drinking. I would like to see a breakout of those studies results. I can't verify AA's early claims but I have heard from quite a few people who did not work the steps originally that they did in fact relapse and when they came back and worked the steps from the big book, with a sponsor, that their sobriety was very different from before and to the best of my knowledge all those people are still sober.

FYI, the courts can in fact mandate attendance at AA meetings as part of sentencing, at least here in the US. A friend of mine got his 2nd DUI, spent 30 days in jail and is on probation for a year and must attend at least 3 AA meetings a week. I have signed quite a few attendance verification forms when I have chaired meetings.

It has been 6 or 7 years since I have chaired a meeting in the States but I too was used to signing verification forms when I chaired a meeting. Maybe it has changed but when I was there it was quite common.

[StreetCowboy]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

I wonder if these studies have a breakdown of recidivism of those who have worked the steps from the big book, those who have "sort of worked the steps," those who attend meetings regularly but have not worked the steps, those who don't attend AA meetings regularly, etc, etc. I have heard that in the early days of AA, and no I can't prove it, that they claimed that they had a 50% success rate with alcoholics who "thoroughly followed the path", another 25% relapsed and came back and stopped drinking after doing the steps again and of the last 25% they claim that those who kept coming back did manage to cut back on their drinking. I would like to see a breakout of those studies results. I can't verify AA's early claims but I have heard from quite a few people who did not work the steps originally that they did in fact relapse and when they came back and worked the steps from the big book, with a sponsor, that their sobriety was very different from before and to the best of my knowledge all those people are still sober.

FYI, the courts can in fact mandate attendance at AA meetings as part of sentencing, at least here in the US. A friend of mine got his 2nd DUI, spent 30 days in jail and is on probation for a year and must attend at least 3 AA meetings a week. I have signed quite a few attendance verification forms when I have chaired meetings.

It has been 6 or 7 years since I have chaired a meeting in the States but I too was used to signing verification forms when I chaired a meeting. Maybe it has changed but when I was there it was quite common.

I think that if you thoroughly follow their path, and stay away form the first drink, then you should be OK.

If not, I can see how it could all end in difficulties.

All the Steps and Meetings and stuff should make it easier to achieve that apparently simple objective, but whether you do it the easy way, or the hard way (regardless of how softer or easier that hard way looks), so long as you stay away from the first drink, you should be OK.,

Once you take the first drink, you're really putting more obstacles in your own path, and now you need to surmount them half-cut as well.

Its never really worked that well for me,..

Out of interest, when you are signing verification forms, do you make a counternote in the meeting book? Otherwise, there does not seem a lot of value to it, but with a counter-note then the authorities could check back and verify the signatures if they so wished. Although I suppose that defeats the spirit of anonymity if you are going to confirm to the authorities that a specific individual was in attendance...

SC

[likerdup1]

Speaking as a Moderator, please let's keep this civil and free from personalized digs, taunts etc. As well as unwarranted ethnic stereotyping and the like (you know who you are ).

Speaking as a poster, clearly neither the OP nor some of the others on this thread at all understand what Kerry has tried to explain. I also tried to explain this one time but for what it is worth, will try again.

A Higher Power is, by definition, not something your intellect is going to be able to understand, but it is, fortunately, something that can be directly experienced, and that experience is life-changing in all sorts of ways, not only in regard to only alcoholism or other addictions. Millions of people, throughout history and also today, have had this experience and live in direct relationship with a Higher Power. I know I do.

It is the experience that is transformative, not a theoretical belief. (Although it is necessary to open yourself up to the possibility of it to have the experience). Then from that point forward, what matters is how you relate to the HP, i.e. to what extent you let it guide you as opposed to letting your ego/self-will take the reins.

Intellectual views of no use whatsoever in this regard. And attachment to such views, whether it is attachment to a view about a Higher Power or attachment to the view that no such thing exists, are rooted in ego and very counterproductive.

So while it may sound ridiculous to hear that people could let the various odd things "be" their higher power, it actually is not since what matters is what it is not: it is not your self-will. Putting that aside is what lets the light in. If in order to be able to do that a person has to have some sort of concept in mind about what the Higher Power is (and it seems many Westerners do) then fine, it can be imagined as a teddy bear or any other %!&$ thing. Just as long as it is understood to be a power outside the ego-centered self...and outside the dogmatic views of that self.

This is an issue that has a lot of importance well beyond alcoholism. My personal exposure to 12-step programs was in the form of Al-Anon rather than AA and my experience of a Higher Power came well before that, although I found the 12 steps to have something valuable to offer that augmented my other spiritual practices. Which do not, BTW, involve what most people mean by a "God".

I am not saying all this to try to persuade the OP, he has clearly made his own decision with regard to this. But I would like others reading this to know that neither AA nor other 12 step programs require any sort of belief in God and that much of what has been written here by people who have not ever experienced a "Higher Power" is an inaccurate reflection of what all that is really about.

Thank you Sheryl, I agree with most you've said here. Let me preface the point I'm about to make by saying I consider myself a humble student of the Alcoholics Anonymous book and have studied it. (not read it through cover to cover a couple times) but extensively studied it with several other "scholars" for many many hours over the years.

My point: To say that AA does not require a Higher Power, God, Spirit of the Universe etc.. is flatly incorrect and I just need to make this clear. The book entitled Alcoholics Anonymous is nothing else but a guide for the sufferer to find a Power Greater and spiritual awakening giving sustained permanent abstinence from alcoholism. Simply saying it's not you doesn't go far enough in my opinion. And, I know for fact that the AA book never makes any such recommendation as "just remember it's not you" or say it's OK to make your HP a door known or inanimate object. They do say this. (nobody else seems to want use the actual literature so I will.)

"Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there."

Now I'm not religious by any means but a Power Greater than myself which I call God has done something for me which I could not do for myself. It gave my relief of the mental obsession part of alcoholism thus giving me rational reasoning to not pickup a drink for over 18 years. I follow the steps and continue to have 3 to 4 sponsees at any given time. I don't actually do the sponsoring these days, I read the book with my sponsees and let the book do the sponsoring. Please don't be offended by my correction, but you are mistaken in your statement and as an avid AA am compelled to set the record straight. I hope you understand and if interested do pickup the book and perhaps wish to study it as I have so that you may know the truth of the program of AA.

[kerryk]

"If I was trying to stay alive during a war I would find the most knowledgeable person to guide me. I would not want a newcomer with lots of good ideas."

kerryk, I think you have the best intentions reinforced by what worked for you (and me) but the science says otherwise. AA is very reluctant to participate in studies that track the effectiveness of the program, but there have been a couple of double blind studies that showed virtually no difference between the recovery of those who attended AA and those who didn't. Don't take my word for it goggle AA recidivism. The courts have declared that people cannot be forced to attend AA because it's effectiveness cannot be established. As you probably know there is a significant amount of people who knew that even Bill W became a moderate drinker later in his life.

I started drinking again after two years of sobriety. I told myself that I would run back to AA if I drove over the legal limit or if my behavior was aggressive. I have kept that promise. Last night my wife and I went out and I had two drinks over a 4 hour period. Please don't misunderstand me that I'm suggesting people play games with addictions. My best friend at the time had 18 years of sobriety and when he started drinking he immediately went back to where he stopped and now is dead.

Mobi has said that he is aware of AA and he said he would know where to go if he fails doing it his way.

I wonder if these studies have a breakdown of recidivism of those who have worked the steps from the big book, those who have "sort of worked the steps," those who attend meetings regularly but have not worked the steps, those who don't attend AA meetings regularly, etc, etc. I have heard that in the early days of AA, and no I can't prove it, that they claimed that they had a 50% success rate with alcoholics who "thoroughly followed the path", another 25% relapsed and came back and stopped drinking after doing the steps again and of the last 25% they claim that those who kept coming back did manage to cut back on their drinking. I would like to see a breakout of those studies results. I can't verify AA's early claims but I have heard from quite a few people who did not work the steps originally that they did in fact relapse and when they came back and worked the steps from the big book, with a sponsor, that their sobriety was very different from before and to the best of my knowledge all those people are still sober.

FYI, the courts can in fact mandate attendance at AA meetings as part of sentencing, at least here in the US. A friend of mine got his 2nd DUI, spent 30 days in jail and is on probation for a year and must attend at least 3 AA meetings a week. I have signed quite a few attendance verification forms when I have chaired meetings.

It has been 6 or 7 years since I have chaired a meeting in the States but I too was used to signing verification forms when I chaired a meeting. Maybe it has changed but when I was there it was quite common.

I think that if you thoroughly follow their path, and stay away form the first drink, then you should be OK.

If not, I can see how it could all end in difficulties.

All the Steps and Meetings and stuff should make it easier to achieve that apparently simple objective, but whether you do it the easy way, or the hard way (regardless of how softer or easier that hard way looks), so long as you stay away from the first drink, you should be OK.,

Once you take the first drink, you're really putting more obstacles in your own path, and now you need to surmount them half-cut as well.

Its never really worked that well for me,..

Out of interest, when you are signing verification forms, do you make a counternote in the meeting book? Otherwise, there does not seem a lot of value to it, but with a counter-note then the authorities could check back and verify the signatures if they so wished. Although I suppose that defeats the spirit of anonymity if you are going to confirm to the authorities that a specific individual was in attendance...

SC

I was the secretary of a pretty large group. We didn't counter sign anything. The guys waited till after the meeting and either the chair person or I signed the form from the court.

The only records we kept were for awarding yearly Medallions and we kept a membership roll but only by first names. We did keep track of how many members were at the meeting and the donations which went to purchase coffee and snacks and pay the meeting room rent. There was a larger AA organization that we contributed to that funded a hot line and gave money to the national AA which held the national meetings and published Big books and AA literature. There were no paid staff at the local level.

That is why any kind of statistics on AA are difficult to obtain. There are no records of attendance since the group is anonymous.

I guess you could figure out how many 20 year members there are by counting the orders for 20 year medallions and so on. I can remember ordering about 50, 20 year medallions per year. But my group had a lot of older members so was probably not typical.

[GrahamF]

Speaking as a Moderator, please let's keep this civil and free from personalized digs, taunts etc. As well as unwarranted ethnic stereotyping and the like (you know who you are ).

Speaking as a poster, clearly neither the OP nor some of the others on this thread at all understand what Kerry has tried to explain. I also tried to explain this one time but for what it is worth, will try again.

A Higher Power is, by definition, not something your intellect is going to be able to understand, but it is, fortunately, something that can be directly experienced, and that experience is life-changing in all sorts of ways, not only in regard to only alcoholism or other addictions. Millions of people, throughout history and also today, have had this experience and live in direct relationship with a Higher Power. I know I do.

It is the experience that is transformative, not a theoretical belief. (Although it is necessary to open yourself up to the possibility of it to have the experience). Then from that point forward, what matters is how you relate to the HP, i.e. to what extent you let it guide you as opposed to letting your ego/self-will take the reins.

Intellectual views of no use whatsoever in this regard. And attachment to such views, whether it is attachment to a view about a Higher Power or attachment to the view that no such thing exists, are rooted in ego and very counterproductive.

So while it may sound ridiculous to hear that people could let the various odd things "be" their higher power, it actually is not since what matters is what it is not: it is not your self-will. Putting that aside is what lets the light in. If in order to be able to do that a person has to have some sort of concept in mind about what the Higher Power is (and it seems many Westerners do) then fine, it can be imagined as a teddy bear or any other %!&$ thing. Just as long as it is understood to be a power outside the ego-centered self...and outside the dogmatic views of that self.

This is an issue that has a lot of importance well beyond alcoholism. My personal exposure to 12-step programs was in the form of Al-Anon rather than AA and my experience of a Higher Power came well before that, although I found the 12 steps to have something valuable to offer that augmented my other spiritual practices. Which do not, BTW, involve what most people mean by a "God".

I am not saying all this to try to persuade the OP, he has clearly made his own decision with regard to this. But I would like others reading this to know that neither AA nor other 12 step programs require any sort of belief in God and that much of what has been written here by people who have not ever experienced a "Higher Power" is an inaccurate reflection of what all that is really about.

Thank you Sheryl, I agree with most you've said here. Let me preface the point I'm about to make by saying I consider myself a humble student of the Alcoholics Anonymous book and have studied it. (not read it through cover to cover a couple times) but extensively studied it with several other "scholars" for many many hours over the years.

My point: To say that AA does not require a Higher Power, God, Spirit of the Universe etc.. is flatly incorrect and I just need to make this clear. The book entitled Alcoholics Anonymous is nothing else but a guide for the sufferer to find a Power Greater and spiritual awakening giving sustained permanent abstinence from alcoholism. Simply saying it's not you doesn't go far enough in my opinion. And, I know for fact that the AA book never makes any such recommendation as "just remember it's not you" or say it's OK to make your HP a door known or inanimate object. They do say this. (nobody else seems to want use the actual literature so I will.)

"Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there."

Now I'm not religious by any means but a Power Greater than myself which I call God has done something for me which I could not do for myself. It gave my relief of the mental obsession part of alcoholism thus giving me rational reasoning to not pickup a drink for over 18 years. I follow the steps and continue to have 3 to 4 sponsees at any given time. I don't actually do the sponsoring these days, I read the book with my sponsees and let the book do the sponsoring. Please don't be offended by my correction, but you are mistaken in your statement and as an avid AA am compelled to set the record straight. I hope you understand and if interested do pickup the book and perhaps wish to study it as I have so that you may know the truth of the program of AA.

I believe that Sheryl might have meant a belief in "god on high", jehovah, a biblical god so to speak is not required. Anyway, the only real requirement is a desire to stop drinking.

Here is Appendix II Spiritual Experience from the Big Book for anyone who is interested-

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.

Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”

Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” - HERBERT SPENCERlity change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.

In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.

Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”

Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”

—Herbert Spencer

SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE

"The terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.

In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming "God-consciousness" followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.

Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the "educational variety" because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it "God-consciousness."

Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

—Herbert Spencer

[Johnniey]

I was speaking about the spiritual, physical and mental aspects of Alcoholism and thought I'd share what I read from an AA book, "Daily Reflections'.

SPIRITUAL HEALTH

When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out

mentally and physically.

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, p. 64

It is very difficult for me to come to terms with my

spiritual illness because of my great pride, disguised by my

material successes and my intellectual power. Intelligence

is not incompatible with humility, provided I place

humility first. To seek prestige and wealth is the ultimate

goal for many in the modern world. To be fashionable and

to seem better than I really am is a spiritual illness.

To recognize and to admit my weaknesses is the

beginning of good spiritual health. It is a sign of spiritual

health to he able to ask God every day to enlighten me, to

recognize His will, and to have the strength to execute it.

My spiritual health is excellent when I realize that the

better I get, the more I discover how much help I need from

others.

[likerdup1]

In order to make my point clear we have to establish a fact that even many people attending the fellowship of AA fail to realize. The fellowship of AA is not the program of AA and that the program of AA is not the fellowship of AA.

Sure "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking". and even people who are not alcoholic or even think they have a problem are welcome at open meetings. Anybody can walk into an AA meeting and check it out and stay if they want, as long as they want to quit drinking. But that isNOTworking the program and the only hope for most real alcoholics is to actually take the steps and practice the program of Alcoholics Anonymous

To practice the program of Alcoholics Anonymous there ARE requirements. The program of Alcoholics Anonymous being nothing nothing more or less than what is contained in the first 164 pages of the Big Book and the essays of the 12 and 12. And there IS a requirement to believe or be even willing to believe that a Power Greater can restore sanity. The insanity being the thinking before the 1st drink.

There is a problem found in many groups of the fellowship these days which is a lack of knowledge of the program found in the book. To say that practicing the program of AA does not require a belief in a Power Greater than oneself, or a God of ones own understanding is incorrect. Now I could try to second guess what Sheryl wrote, but she did not write God of Jehovah or Jesus Christ.

[likerdup1]

"Can God cure Cancer? Or heart disease? Some may claim that he can, but they are in the extreme minority – a religious fringe element, most would conclude. For most of us, the only cure for cancer is medical treatment – surgery, chemo-therapy etcetera and as far as I am aware, although I have never consulted with any cancer specialists, God has no part in this process.

So why does God suddenly have this miraculous ability to relieve alcoholics of their disease, as so many recovering members of AA believe? I think we might find the answer in the nature of the disease – the fact that alcoholics – to one extent or another – are suffering from some degree of mental impairment. They are unable to think clearly and rationally and their powers of logical reasoning are severely compromised.

Medical science has already established that it can take years, if at all, for a sober alcoholic to recover all of his cognitive functions, so isn't it fairly obvious that such people would be vulnerable to the heady and attractive ideas propounded by AA religious zealots? Then, if we add into the mix the fact that most, if not all alcoholics are also social misfits in one way or another, with many suffering from such diseases as manic depression, agoraphobia, OCD and so on.

Mobi has brought up some valid questions here. And the Big Book of AA can answer them all. God hasn't just suddenly had the ability to give relief to alcoholics. It's been happening since early times, and regarded as a phenomenon or freak occurrence happening now and again for hopeless alcoholics.

The "spiritual solution" idea which is posed in the chapter "There is a Solution" originates not from religion. This idea was introduced to an alcoholic by the name of Roland Hazard by one of the greatest living psychiatrists the Swiss psychiatrist, and influential thinker and founder of Analytical Psychology Dr. Carl Jung. This information is found within the AA big book on page 27. Many countless Doctors in an effort to help the myriad of alcoholics paraded in front of them have, over the years, observed a phenomenon well documented and regarded as a kind of "freak occurrence" . That being what AA now calls a spiritual awakening or experience.

Big Book Quote of Dr. Carl Jung responding to a question posed by Roland Hazard:

"Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them."

So again, this was not a concept invented by AA, long before the program of AA was written by Bill Wilson (actually much borrowed from the Oxford groups) the spiritual experience has been an occurring for "lucky" or receptive alcoholics.

The idea was brought to the USA by Roland Hazard, who helped a man by the name of Ebby Thacher relieve his alcohlism through the tenets of the Oxford groups. Thacher was the "glowing skin friend" that approached Bill at one of the low points in his alcoholism and introduced Bill to the idea that a belief and dependence on a Higher Power could relieve his drink problem.

So Mr. Mobi, there your question is answered, God or Higher Power didn't just suddenly have the ability to relieve but has been doing it since early times and quite a bit more as of late with the advent of a set of directions to that end ---- The 12 steps.

~likerdup1 (18 years no more)

[Mobi]

Do you think you would be able to find a higher power if you wanted to?

That is an interesting question, kerryk and I have given it some thought.

The short answer is no, I do not think I could find a Higher Power if I wanted to.

The longer answer is that I thought I had actually found my HP back in early 2008. Although at that time I had already attended a number of AA meetings, it was my first sponsor, a really bright, earnest young guy from Bangkok who set me on my first path to sobriety and led me to accept the idea of an HP. He was very strict with me and without going into too much detail, he insisted that I pray every morning and evening, and practice a number ‘spiritually motivated’ events throughout each day, as well as attending AA meetings, twice per day.

I had a lot of respect for this man – I still do – and as my life at that time was falling apart I was willing to try anything. So from following my sponsor's advice and from reading the Big Book, it wasn’t too long before I became convinced of the presence of a HP and tried to embrace ‘him’, to change my life around and start working the steps.

Also at that time I was given a book by the spiritual writer, Eckardt Tolle, in an AA meeting, and reading this book was music to my ears and my belief in a HP became ever stronger. I really do believe that I was becoming spiritually transformed and I was determined to work the steps.

So what went wrong?

Too many things to write about here, but I will try to summarise the main points.

Firstly, I ‘lost’ my sponsor. Through no fault of his own, he simply wasn’t there for me when I needed him. He had his own life, a busy job, a young family and problems of his own and I sensed that he simply did not have the time for me that I needed. So after a disastrous trip to Chiang Mai, when I stormed out of the first AA meeting up there as the members were putting me under ridiculous pressure, I decided that I had better find a new sponsor. It was after this meeting in Chiang Mai that I started drinking again, after several months of abstinence. But I do not blame AA for this relapse. It was my decision, pure and simple.

Back in Pattaya, I continued to attend daily AA meetings and continued to pray and believe in my HP, and stopped drinking again. One guy was keen to become my new sponsor, but before we had formalised the process, he started having a go at me for not making the effort to meet with him in the early morning, even though I tried to explain to him that I lived 30 minutes’ drive from Pattaya and that I had certain family responsibilities that prevented me from making it much before 8.30 a.m. He started to lecture me on my ‘priorities’ and I realised that this guy wasn’t for me. I went much further along the road with the next sponsor. We met regularly and I worked steps 1 to 3, which included me kneeling on the ground in a public place and reciting the 3rd step prayer.

Then, once again, it all started to go wrong. On the first occasion, he insisted that I miss the monthly AA ‘business meeting’ to have a meeting with him, and then a few days later he wanted me to miss an AA meeting for the same reason. I asked him if he was free after the AA meeting and he told me that he was but that he just wanted me to miss the meeting. I asked him why, and he wouldn’t tell me. I will never do anything I don’t wish to do without good reason, and it became apparent that I was dealing with a control freak. So that was the end of that. Effectively, that was the last time I had an active sponsor, although dear old Hank was in the process of taking up the reins when he was suddenly taken from us.

You may ask what has all this got to do with my belief in a HP?

To be honest, I am not sure, but I can only deduce that these experiences, along with so much more of the cant, clichés, platitudes and hypocrisy that I encountered at AA meetings, slowly worked their way into my brain and I became aware that my new found spirituality was starting to dissipate.

Once this process began, I started to question more and more, the basis of my belief in an HP, and then my subsequent discussions with my therapist – even though he was very strong on recommending that I meditate and try to find my spirituality – convinced me that I was wrong in believing that an HP was going to help me, Mobi, in my quest for sobriety. I still believe that there is probably some kind of ‘Higher Being’, somewhere out there in the universe, but a HP who cares about me – sorry folks, I cannot believe that any more than I can believe in Santa Claus.

Whatever spirituality I may have had – and I am the first to admit that it might not have been of the kind that most ‘believers’ achieve – it has now left me and I doubt it will ever return. (I am far too naughty….. )

I do believe that the means of me achieving long term sobriety is within myself, and I also believe that by re-starting my life and dealing with some of the issues that drove me to alcohol in the first place will help me. To this end I am so much happier in myself since I finally succeeded in extricating myself from a disastrous and totally destructive marriage that was dragging me down to depths that I don’t even want to think about any more. It is now some 20 months since I left my wife and although when I first left her, my life became infinitely worse; becoming so bad that I was within a whisper of taking my own life, I have now turned the corner and I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

I know I have a long way to go, but as I wrote in my blog recently, if I draw up a check list of my successes and failures during the past few months, I think I am ahead by a considerable margin. In a few days I will have chalked up 5 months sobriety and for the most part it has been ‘a walk in the park’. I have my new home out by the lake where I live with a new girlfriend - who is by far the best lady I have ever had in my life, (I am usually attracted to the bad ones); I keep myself occupied with my writings and other activities, I have my 3 loving dogs for additional company and all in all life, while not wonderful, is pretty good, all things considered.

Will I achieve permanent sobriety without AA and working the 12 steps? Only time will tell, but I will give it my very best efforts and right now I am feeling extremely positive about my sobriety and life in general.

But before Kerryk and others jump in with a further gallant defence of AA, I will reiterate that I am not recommending my route to sobriety to anyone. It is my personal choice to do it my way and until I have been sober for at least 10 years, (if I live that long), my way is totally unproven.

Further, please don’t let my experiences in AA put anyone off giving it a go. There is good and bad everywhere and in every walk of life – nowhere is perfect, least of all AA with its motley collection of practising drunks, sober drunks, ex-criminals, dead beats and manic depressives. But there are also some wonderful, generous, good-hearted people there – just seek them out and they will truly help you if you are ready and willing.

Good luck to you all those looking for sobriety - peace and serenity….

[Mobi]

....So perhaps, spiritually is not dependent upon any outside, 'higher power', but is merely a manifestation of each individual's innate spiritual power?

Just a thought.

RickThai

A very good thought RickThai.

Couldn't have put it better myself

Make note, likerdup1, there is another answer to the 'spirituality' issue.....

[Sheryl]

My point: To say that AA does not require a Higher Power, God, Spirit of the Universe etc.. is flatly incorrect and I just need to make this clear.

I believe that Sheryl might have meant a belief in "god on high", jehovah, a biblical god so to speak is not required. Anyway, the only real requirement is a desire to stop drinking.

Thank you Graham, you are correct. I most definitely did not say that the 12 Step program (AA, NA, Al-Anon or any other...it's the same 12 steps for all of them) did not require a Higher Power. Coming to know a HP and learning how to let it, rather than your own self-will, take the reins is the absolute essence of it. it is also the absolute essence of every other genuine spiritual path I am aware (note that a genuine spiritual path does not equate to organized religion).

What I meant is that it does not require a belief in a God, as that word is generally understood i.e. some type of a Supreme Being. It is very clear in the conference approved literature for all the 12 step programs that this is not at all the case.

The Big Book was written in in the 1940's or thereabouts (may have been earlier, but was certainly not later than the early 50's). By white middle class Americans in an era when pretty much everyone came from a Judeo-Christian background and had had no exposure to other religious traditions much less spiritual practices apart from organized religion. So it tends to use the term "God" quite a bit because that was what people back then were most likely to understand. Indeed, back then most people took the existence of "God" pretty much for granted so the focus was more on just getting people to relate to what they understood to be the Higher Power in a new and different way.

Even so, the first step does not say God, it says "power greater than myself" .

In subsequent years the terminology used became much more inclusive, reflecting both a wider awareness of spiritual paths outside the Judeo-Christian tradition and a more diverse society. And many things came out explicitly addressing this issue since belief in "God" was no longer a given and people coming into the program came from increasingly diverse backgrounds.

I find that people who have issues with the first step/HP focus of 12 step programs often came from backgrounds where they were exposed to very rigid, dogmatic religious beliefs presented as absolute truth by members of an organized religion....and not infrequently had negative experiences as a result, which is to be expected since rigid dogmatism inevitably does cause problems. So they reject this whole sale, and make the mistake of generalizing that to everything that might be remotely described a "spiritual". It is hard for such people to understand that there is a vast field of spirituality that is utterly unlike what they have rejected. And, as their rejection of organized religion stemmed from some very negative experiences, their reaction to anything they think is similar is a very strong, negative knee-jerk one. And this, regrettably keeps many people out of not only 12 step programs that they may have need of, but any sort of spiritual path of growth.

Even I have a touch of this problem in that I can't get my head around the use of the term "God". My problem being that it is so widely understood to mean a Being, and that neither makes sense to me not in any way harmonizes with the Higher Power I directly experience. I don't mind when other people use the term, and I can even see that in many cases they are in fact talking about a Higher Power of the sort that I know, but I have to mentally interject a translation in such discussions.

It is true that the only requirement to attend AA is a desire to stop drinking. but it is also true, as some posters have said, that being in the Fellowship is not the same thing as working the program, and it is working the Program that gives the real, lasting results. (Not that nothing of value is gained from the fellowship.

To work the Program, you do not need any sort of intellectual belief about Higher Powers, God, etc. But you do need to be willing to set aside your ego-based self-will and open yourself up to the possibility of receiving help and guidance from a source that is outside it. You can do this with a specific notion in mind of what that something is and specific name for it, or you can do it accepting that you have no idea what such a power might be. It makes no difference to the result, as long as you have genuinely let go and opened up.

Some people with very strong intellectual beliefs in God or other HP completely fail to do this. If you look closely at what's going on, it is that they have firmly held onto their self-will and far from being a genuinely Higher Power, they are turning to god as if to a short-order cook, essentially telling God what to do for them, and then getting upset when it's not forthcoming. they've missed the essence of the step altogether. So a strong belief in a God not only doesn't necessarily help, it can actually be a detriment. Conversely people filled with uncertainly, with no idea at all of what a Higher Power might be or even if there is such a thing, will do quite well if they are able to humbly put aside their self-will and open up. That's what I was getting at in saying that what is important is not what the HP is, but what it is not. It's ego and self will that keep us blocked off from the help and guidance that is available, and it's dropping these impediments that is important. Totally dropping it, no conditionalities, no unconscious decision to accept help provided it comes in this or that form, does this or that specific thing for you in such and such a way, etc. All of which are games people commonly do play with this step.

[Johnniey]

Coming to know a HP and learning how to let it, rather than your own self-will, take the reins is the absolute essence of it. it is also the absolute essence of every other genuine spiritual path I am aware (note that a genuine spiritual path does not equate to organized religion).

When I was newly sober and stating to work the steps, I met a friend at the temple on Sukhumvit 101/1. Wat Dammankon. We had a great laugh when we saw the large building they had (with the world's largest jade Buddha) as it was called "The Centre of Self Will". Unfortunately for the alcoholic, self-will doesn't work regarding alcohol. It's as much use as when trying to use self-will to cure cancer or other disease.

Sheryl, you have a very good understanding of what AA is. In my experience, non-alcoholics can never understand. This includes doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists. My wife of 10 years still doesn't understand the disease I have and she has really tried. I went to one of Thailand's leading psychiatrists, specializing in alcoholism, and he told me that as I hadn't had a drink for 5 years, it would be safe to have 2 beers a week.

One of the most powerful things for me in AA is the ability of another alkie to understand me. As the best doctors in the world can't help an alcoholic, it proves to me that it is not just a physical disease.

[Sheryl]

.... I thought I had actually found my HP back in early 2008. Although at that time I had already attended a number of AA meetings, it was my first sponsor, a really bright, earnest young guy from Bangkok who set me on my first path to sobriety and led me to accept the idea of an HP. He was very strict with me and without going into too much detail, he insisted that I pray every morning and evening, and practice a number ‘spiritually motivated’ events throughout each day, as well as attending AA meetings, twice per day.

I had a lot of respect for this man – I still do – and as my life at that time was falling apart I was willing to try anything. So from following my sponsor's advice and from reading the Big Book, it wasn’t too long before I became convinced of the presence of a HP and tried to embrace ‘him’, to change my life around and start working the steps.

Also at that time I was given a book by the spiritual writer, Eckardt Tolle, in an AA meeting, and reading this book was music to my ears and my belief in a HP became ever stronger. I really do believe that I was becoming spiritually transformed and I was determined to work the steps.

So what went wrong?

Too many things to write about here, but I will try to summarise the main points.

Firstly, I ‘lost’ my sponsor. Through no fault of his own, he simply wasn’t there for me when I needed him. He had his own life, a busy job, a young family and problems of his own and I sensed that he simply did not have the time for me that I needed. So after a disastrous trip to Chiang Mai, when I stormed out of the first AA meeting up there as the members were putting me under ridiculous pressure, I decided that I had better find a new sponsor. It was after this meeting in Chiang Mai that I started drinking again, after several months of abstinence. But I do not blame AA for this relapse. It was my decision, pure and simple.

Back in Pattaya, I continued to attend daily AA meetings and continued to pray and believe in my HP, and stopped drinking again. One guy was keen to become my new sponsor, but before we had formalised the process, he started having a go at me for not making the effort to meet with him in the early morning, even though I tried to explain to him that I lived 30 minutes’ drive from Pattaya and that I had certain family responsibilities that prevented me from making it much before 8.30 a.m. He started to lecture me on my ‘priorities’ and I realised that this guy wasn’t for me. I went much further along the road with the next sponsor. We met regularly and I worked steps 1 to 3, which included me kneeling on the ground in a public place and reciting the 3rd step prayer.

Then, once again, it all started to go wrong. On the first occasion, he insisted that I miss the monthly AA ‘business meeting’ to have a meeting with him, and then a few days later he wanted me to miss an AA meeting for the same reason. I asked him if he was free after the AA meeting and he told me that he was but that he just wanted me to miss the meeting. I asked him why, and he wouldn’t tell me. I will never do anything I don’t wish to do without good reason, and it became apparent that I was dealing with a control freak. So that was the end of that. Effectively, that was the last time I had an active sponsor, although dear old Hank was in the process of taking up the reins when he was suddenly taken from us.

You may ask what has all this got to do with my belief in a HP?

To be honest, I am not sure, but I can only deduce that these experiences, along with so much more of the cant, clichés, platitudes and hypocrisy that I encountered at AA meetings, slowly worked their way into my brain and I became aware that my new found spirituality was starting to dissipate.

Once this process began, I started to question more and more, the basis of my belief in an HP, and then my subsequent discussions with my therapist – even though he was very strong on recommending that I meditate and try to find my spirituality – convinced me that I was wrong in believing that an HP was going to help me, Mobi, in my quest for sobriety. I still believe that there is probably some kind of ‘Higher Being’, somewhere out there in the universe, but a HP who cares about me – sorry folks, I cannot believe that any more than I can believe in Santa Claus.

Whatever spirituality I may have had – and I am the first to admit that it might not have been of the kind that most ‘believers’ achieve – it has now left me and I doubt it will ever return. (I am far too naughty….. )

Mobi, this post struck so many familiar chords in me that I feel a need to reply.

First of all, please understand that I am talking here of the broader issue of a Higher Power and not in specific reference to your drinking. My own experience and relationship with a HP has never been in the context of an alcohol or addiction problem, nor was it discovered through any 12 step program, although I did find some helpful things in one along the way.

For all I know, you may be able to remain sober without a relationship with a Higher Power. But from all I have experienced and all I have observed in life, you will not be able to be happy or to reach your true potential. That, in my experience and all that I have seen , is not possible until one has made the change from an ego-based self-willed life to one that is surrendered to and guided by a Higher Power. (Not that I have achieved that in totality - it's an ongoing process and I relapse into self-willed, ego-driven living quite often. We all do, unless we're saints/fully enlightened beings. But one catches oneself sooner or later and gets back on the path.)

Before I tell you what in your story struck a chord, a few observations about this issue of whether a HP "cares" about you: (1) it presupposes a HP that is some sort of Being with motives, feelings etc. There are other possibilities. We human beings are so enormously egocentric that we project our own traits onto a HP. (2) The concern about whether or not a HP cares about you is, if you look closely, a way of thinking that still puts yourself at the center. Again, there are very different ways of looking at it. Also, the referenece to being "too naughty" to find a HP again echoes of Judeo-Christian God that judges/rewards/punishes. Again, there are other possibilities.

You might find it useful to study the Buddhist concept of Dharma, an impersonal Universal Law.

Now as to what it was that struck a chord.

I too went through a sort of crisis of faith for many years, and while it did not involve AA, sponsors or aklchiolism, it had in common with your story the fact that disappointment/disillusionment with the actions of other people -- people I had respected/regarded as more spiritually advanced/knowledgeable than I - was the precipitating factor.

I became riddled with doubts and began to examine everything through a microscope, looking for even the smallest inconsistancy or flaw to add to the pile of "evidence" that was the basis for my doubt. Drove myself pretty crazy with it, in fact.

Now in my case this all happened more than a decade into serious spiritual practice which had without question vastly improved my life. So what was threatened was something very valuable indeed. Fortunately I never completely stopped my practice, I just scaled it back (sort of to a beginner level) and avoided settings and people that fed into the doubts.

It went on like this for years, and caused me a lot of unhappiness. Underlying all of this was a current of deep anger; I felt that I was correct in my judgement of the various failings and flaws in the actions/people in question and that they or someone/something owed me an apology. I wanted the "truth" of this situation acknowledged, specifically the fact that i was right in considering these various things to have been wrong. (Actually I think I was, but fixating ion it did nothing but harm me). I wasn't, most of the time, open to my HP because I was so angry about all this.

Well it went on like that for some time, during which the quality of my life suffered. I could see that I was worse off this way, so I decided to stay with my practice but to limit it to what I directly knew to be so based solely on my experience, to work on my relationship to the HP and to disregard everything else. This proved to be a good strategy and over time I got back on track. I realized that (1) I had made a mistake in letting the behavior/character of other people be part of the basis of my faith and (2) that at the root of the whole thing there was more than a small amount of ego-centered rage, a sort of giant hissy fit because things hadn't followed the script I demanded it to...and that, of course, is the very opposite of surrender to a higher power.

Now of course in an AA context it's harder because of the importance of a Sponsor. On the one hand, a Sponsor is important and any Sponsor is going to be a human being and thus flawed and capable of mistakes. Having never worked in a Sponsor situation I can't really advise on this but I can well imagine that if i ever did, I'd run smack into the kind of difficulty you describe. It might help to keep in mind that while a HP can work through other people and hopefully will work through a Sponsor, a Sponsor is still just a falliable person and not everything they say or do is going to be correct or HP-inspired. Ultimately you have to rely on your own judgement. (And I think changing sponsors is not uncommon). One of the 12 step slogans I most liked was "Take what you like and leave the rest".

Or you may do best working without a sponsor.

But whatever you do -- and again, this is not just -- or even primarily -- referring to your drinking problem, do not shut yourself off from a Higher Power. That may or may not lead you to drink again, but it will most definitely lead to unhappiness and prevent you from fulfilling the potential your life has.

[Sheryl]

I am really trying. Reading Sheryl''s definition of a 'higher power', I can only gather it has to be 'outside' of yourself' based upon a 'feeling' that you experienced. It also cannot be understood? Sheryl, care to elaborate?

It might not be a God (or Gods), perhaps it could be anything as long as you believed strongly enough and had the 'feeling' to match?

Well I'll try to elaborate. I think calling it a "feeling" is misleading. It is an experience of something which we cannot understand by intellect. Not a one-time experience but an ongoing experience of the presence of a force or power that is most definitely not part of your ego-self or subject to your self-will. In fact that very act of willing shuts it out (even if what you are willing for, is for it to appear!)

And with the experience of the presence of that force comes ways of relating to it and over time you learn that the more you trust in it and allow it to guide your life, the better things go..even if it what it guides you towards is utterly opposite to what you want or think should be.

Since "beliefs" in the intellectual sense are creations of your own ego and will (tailored to what you find acceptable, they are a hindrance.

You don't need to strongly believe anything so much as you need to be willing to put aside your self-will and ego altogether and be open.

The best analogy I can think of on this bit about it being something that can be experienced but not intellectually understood is to compare it to a taste. Take say blueberries. They have an unmistakable taste. But if you were to try to tell someone else who has never tasted a blueberry what that taste is, you'd never be able to do it. There is no way to explain it and it can't be intellectually "understood" in the sense that there is no intellectual understanding anyone can have that would enable them to know what a blueberry tastes like if they've never eaten one.

It seems to me the common denominator is simply 'faith'. I don't know if that automatically excludes 'faith' in your own will power?.............

See above. Most definititely it does.

"Faith" is a tricky thing because the term is used to mean many different things, some of them counterproductive. A negative meaning is when it is taken to mean a firm belief in something that you don't actually know to be true. A firm,often rigid, intellectual belief. This comes purely from a place of ego and self will, and is harmful. It also leads to endless futile arguments between people. (sometimes even wars!)

The positive meaning has more to do with trust and willingness to take a chance, willingness to step beyond the bounds of what the intellect can grasp, willingness to risk experiences you can't predict or control. That is not said very well, but it's the best I can come up with. That type of faith does have to be present in order to have the experiences that lead to direct knowledge. And, once you have experiential knowledge of a higher power, where what might perhaps be called faith comes in has to do with a willingness to place your trust in it even though you have no idea where that will lead you in a conventional worldly sense.

........So perhaps, spiritually is not dependent upon any outside, 'higher power', but is merely a manifestation of each indivdual's inate spiritual power?

I don't think this is an either/or situation. We do all have within us the capacity to not only experience a higher power but to manifest it in the world in various ways. To my understanding it is not that a higher power is a manifestation of a something in me, but that I can allow it to manifest in me. Whether when this happens that power is "within" or "outside" of ourselves is a bit of semantics and depends on what exactly you mean by "self". It is most definitely 100% outside the self will or ego. You cannot control it. It can control you, but only if you let it.

There is a completely different and unmistakable feeling to actions taken when you allow this power to manifest in you as opposed to actions you take of your own self will. The best way I can explain it is that it's like being an electric extension cord. The current passes through you, you conduct it, you may be critical to turning into concrete effects in the world, but you don't own it, you don't control it, and to me at least, it feels like it comes from outside the self. Definitely it comes from outside the ego self and is not an act of the will. And although it may be flowing through you, it could also flow through someone else, it's not uniquely yours.

The analogy that comes to mind is of a radio or TV. Turned off, there is nothing. Turn it on and depending ion what frequency it's tuned to, various things will manifest. When you listen to a song on the radio, is that song a thing within the radio itself? Or is it some force outside the radio? That's more or less the same question as asking if a HP is something greater than the self or a spiritual power innate to the self...

What is important though is the understanding that it is outside the ego and the self will. beyond that the issue of whether it exists only within people vs. people manifest it but it also exists outside of them etc etc is just intellectual hair-splitting. But the point about outside of/greater than the self will is crucial.

[trisailer]

As I have said before I made a full on commitment to AA when I reached my bottom 90 meetings in 90 days and got a very mean sponsor. After the 90 days I attended 5-6 meetings per week. I have the greatest respect and admiration for people trying to stop drinking. My brother has serious problems due to his drinking and I'm trying unsuccessfully to get him to commit to the program. I set a goal for myself of 1 year and was sober for 2. That was 20 years ago. When I resumed drinking I set some boundaries that if I crossed I would immediately return to AA.

I never found a higher power. What was powerful for me was the fellowship. My first spiritual experience was holding other peoples hands while saying the lords prayer. I was almost overcome the first time I did it and always saw it as kind of a meditation after that. I was looking for a HP and doing everything the program asked as well as getting baptized and attending church. I never found it.

A couple of years later I had the most incredible spiritual experience while in a storm alone on my boat 100 miles offshore. It was the whole deal, bright light and all. I had a second powerful experience a few years after that. Now I seem to have them daily. Both experiences were precipitated by my being in a weakened state.

Prior to my attending AA I had never cried. I had built a impenetrable wall around myself and no one could get in. I also had a huge ego which served me well in my career, but limited my enjoyment of life. I was very successful at solving problems, but completely cut off from other people. I went through the motions ok but I wasn't feeling the things that a normal human should feel. I felt peace only when I was alone in the woods or on a boat.

Hindsight is 20/20 and what I think is that I shut down to normal feeling at a young age. I substituted thrill seeking and adventure and it supplied my need for "feeling". I got my needs for human connection from risking my life with friends who were as crazy as I was.

It eventually brought me to crisis and I couldn't cope. I was powerless to get a grip.

Today I would say that my higher power is me. I am plugged back in to myself. I believe that we are born with the ability to live balanced happy lives but we shut it off for one reason or another . For years I carried a photo of myself when I was 8 in my wallet. Every time I opened it I saw it and was reminded of who I was when life was great and I wasn't ruled by compulsion. I don't carry the photo anymore but my life is every bit as great as it was then. Simple and beautiful.

It was a long road back.

[ThaiPauly]

A couple of very good sayings that I find very insightful and are pertinaent to what has been said on this thread are:

FAITH....is not about everything turning out OK

FAITH is about being OK no matter how things turn out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would rarther live my life believing that there is a God and die and find out there is'nt. Than to to live my life as if there isn't and die and find out there is.

[kerryk]

As I have said before I made a full on commitment to AA when I reached my bottom 90 meetings in 90 days and got a very mean sponsor. After the 90 days I attended 5-6 meetings per week. I have the greatest respect and admiration for people trying to stop drinking. My brother has serious problems due to his drinking and I'm trying unsuccessfully to get him to commit to the program. I set a goal for myself of 1 year and was sober for 2. That was 20 years ago. When I resumed drinking I set some boundaries that if I crossed I would immediately return to AA.

I never found a higher power. What was powerful for me was the fellowship. My first spiritual experience was holding other peoples hands while saying the lords prayer. I was almost overcome the first time I did it and always saw it as kind of a meditation after that. I was looking for a HP and doing everything the program asked as well as getting baptized and attending church. I never found it.

A couple of years later I had the most incredible spiritual experience while in a storm alone on my boat 100 miles offshore. It was the whole deal, bright light and all. I had a second powerful experience a few years after that. Now I seem to have them daily. Both experiences were precipitated by my being in a weakened state.

Prior to my attending AA I had never cried. I had built a impenetrable wall around myself and no one could get in. I also had a huge ego which served me well in my career, but limited my enjoyment of life. I was very successful at solving problems, but completely cut off from other people. I went through the motions ok but I wasn't feeling the things that a normal human should feel. I felt peace only when I was alone in the woods or on a boat.

Hindsight is 20/20 and what I think is that I shut down to normal feeling at a young age. I substituted thrill seeking and adventure and it supplied my need for "feeling". I got my needs for human connection from risking my life with friends who were as crazy as I was.

It eventually brought me to crisis and I couldn't cope. I was powerless to get a grip.

Today I would say that my higher power is me. I am plugged back in to myself. I believe that we are born with the ability to live balanced happy lives but we shut it off for one reason or another . For years I carried a photo of myself when I was 8 in my wallet. Every time I opened it I saw it and was reminded of who I was when life was great and I wasn't ruled by compulsion. I don't carry the photo anymore but my life is every bit as great as it was then. Simple and beautiful.

It was a long road back.

One brief caveat. Recovery means total abstinence so says all 12 step programs and all of the reputable medical associations world wide. Most failed remission attempts are based on moderation. I could provide 68 references but it would take up a lot of space.

[RickThai]

Sheryl;

Thank you for trying to clear up your meaning of a higher power. Many things can have a profound and life-changing impact on a person's life, whether they be a religous experience, or the trauma of war. What I find interesting (and what I was trying to make in my last post), is that people experience 'the rapture', the 'born again', or whatever term you care to use to describe the following:

"It is an experience of something which we cannot understand by intellect. Not a one-time experience but an ongoing experience of the presence of a force or power that is most definitely not part of your ego-self or subject to your self-will. In fact that very act of willing shuts it out (even if what you are willing for, is for it to appear!)"

And it comes from many different sources (God, Gods, natural phenominom, etc.) The experiece is certainly 'real' to the individual when it happens and, as you stated, often becomes an ongoing experience. I'm just not sure that I believe it is impossible to understand, or that by understanding, somehow the experience is diminished. I agree that there often is a kind of "letting go" of self and ego. But I also believe that that each an every living creature has a spirit or essence-of-life if you will, that goes way beyond the normal, everyday physical aspect of a living creature. It is this force (in the Law of Attraction theory it is called 'Source Energy"), that I believe is drawn upon whenever someone 'finds salvation in a higher power".

Of course, I admit freely, that that is just my interpretation. Each religion has its own interpretation, which no one can really prove or disprove, since by definition religous dogma, can not be proved or disproved (that's why its call dogma).

Still, I think the most important thing is for alcoholics to quit drinking and stay stopped. Whatever it takes, and whatever helps you maintain sobriety, is A-Okay in my book.

Wishing everyone the best.

RickThai