Rights Group Says Thai Troops 'Murdered' Civilians During Red-Shirts Protest Last Year

[termsak]

Tensions increased throughout the day, as the afternoon brought news of increased fighting

in northern Thailand. Several explosions were heard outside the hospital. Later that day, the

protesters extended a clear plastic tube from one of the propane tanks toward the hospital

basement and, according to two witnesses, threatened to burn the building down. They later

withdrew the plastic tube after negotiating with hospital security guards. That evening

protesters returned to the emergency room to look for soldiers and police officers. They

spoke lewdly to physicians, nurses, and other hospital staff, and threatened to return the

next day to take them hostage.122

The next day, April 29, at about 6 p.m. UDD leader Phayap Panket and some 25 Red Guards

appeared at the gate of the emergency department with more than 100 protesters, some

carrying sharpened bamboo stakes, to demand they again be let in to search for police and

soldiers. UDD protesters shouted threats and obscenities, and grabbed the shirts of several

hospital guards. The protesters refused to believe the senior administrators' assurances that

soldiers were not permitted in the hospital. Hospital administrators called police, who had

not yet established a formal presence nearby.123

UDD leaders persisted in their demand to search the hospital. Hospital administrators felt

compelled by the large number of protesters to acquiesce, although requested a limited

number of searchers participate. However, several hundred stormed the hospital compound

and began to search two of the previously evacuated larger buildings. When police arrived,

they accompanied UDD leaders in their search of other hospital buildings, while other UDD

protesters walked throughout the hospital and surrounding grounds in small groups.

Physicians and nurses expressed shock at the brazen attitude of the UDD protesters. One

doctor told Human Rights Watch, "We are neutral.… Maybe they don't understand the

principles of the Red Cross."124

For safety reasons, the hospital administration decided that evening to close the emergency

room and pharmacy and moved most hospital staff to buildings further from the UDD

encampment. Hospital administrators held an emergency meeting and decided to evacuate

the entire hospital early the next morning. By 7 a.m. on April 30, staff began to transfer and

discharge the remaining 600 patients. By that evening only the Supreme Patriarch,

Thailand's most revered Buddhist monk, remained as a patient in the hospital. After he was

transferred the next day, the hospital had no patients.

The rush to move patients out of the Chulalongkorn Hospital was widely reported, with live

images of terminally ill patients being carried or wheeled out from the hospital buildings.

Among those patients, Thuanthong Vitthayacheewa died of heart failure on May 4 as his

condition worsened during the transfer.125

Several Red Shirt leaders soon apologized for the raid, calling it a mistake. Weng Tojirakarn,

a physician and protest leader, was quoted as saying, "The situation got out of control. It is

not our policy to obstruct hospital operations."126

Many Thais were outraged by the incursion into the hospital, leading even some sympathetic

to the UDD to question the methods and the judgment of their leaders.127

I am really interested in knowing if any of the red apologists in here can twist this fact and justify this terrorist action? Any takers? No? I didn't think so...

[PingManDan]

Yes we all know that to be true

Edited May 5, 2011 by metisdead
Font size normalized.

[timekeeper]

Tensions increased throughout the day, as the afternoon brought news of increased fighting

in northern Thailand. Several explosions were heard outside the hospital. Later that day, the

protesters extended a clear plastic tube from one of the propane tanks toward the hospital

basement and, according to two witnesses, threatened to burn the building down. They later

withdrew the plastic tube after negotiating with hospital security guards. That evening

protesters returned to the emergency room to look for soldiers and police officers. They

spoke lewdly to physicians, nurses, and other hospital staff, and threatened to return the

next day to take them hostage.122

The next day, April 29, at about 6 p.m. UDD leader Phayap Panket and some 25 Red Guards

appeared at the gate of the emergency department with more than 100 protesters, some

carrying sharpened bamboo stakes, to demand they again be let in to search for police and

soldiers. UDD protesters shouted threats and obscenities, and grabbed the shirts of several

hospital guards. The protesters refused to believe the senior administrators' assurances that

soldiers were not permitted in the hospital. Hospital administrators called police, who had

not yet established a formal presence nearby.123

UDD leaders persisted in their demand to search the hospital. Hospital administrators felt

compelled by the large number of protesters to acquiesce, although requested a limited

number of searchers participate. However, several hundred stormed the hospital compound

and began to search two of the previously evacuated larger buildings. When police arrived,

they accompanied UDD leaders in their search of other hospital buildings, while other UDD

protesters walked throughout the hospital and surrounding grounds in small groups.

Physicians and nurses expressed shock at the brazen attitude of the UDD protesters. One

doctor told Human Rights Watch, "We are neutral.… Maybe they don't understand the

principles of the Red Cross."124

For safety reasons, the hospital administration decided that evening to close the emergency

room and pharmacy and moved most hospital staff to buildings further from the UDD

encampment. Hospital administrators held an emergency meeting and decided to evacuate

the entire hospital early the next morning. By 7 a.m. on April 30, staff began to transfer and

discharge the remaining 600 patients. By that evening only the Supreme Patriarch,

Thailand's most revered Buddhist monk, remained as a patient in the hospital. After he was

transferred the next day, the hospital had no patients.

The rush to move patients out of the Chulalongkorn Hospital was widely reported, with live

images of terminally ill patients being carried or wheeled out from the hospital buildings.

Among those patients, Thuanthong Vitthayacheewa died of heart failure on May 4 as his

condition worsened during the transfer.125

Several Red Shirt leaders soon apologized for the raid, calling it a mistake. Weng Tojirakarn,

a physician and protest leader, was quoted as saying, "The situation got out of control. It is

not our policy to obstruct hospital operations."126

Many Thais were outraged by the incursion into the hospital, leading even some sympathetic

to the UDD to question the methods and the judgment of their leaders.127

I am really interested in knowing if any of the red apologists in here can twist this fact and justify this terrorist action? Any takers? No? I didn't think so...

i am sure jayboy will be along soon with another of his ''jayboyisms'' to pick the holes in this and twist it around to defend the red revolutionists actions..........

[SomTumTiger]

Maybe the title of this topic is a bit too one sided. The post has

" "In plain view government forces shot protesters and armed militants shot soldiers, but no one has been held responsible," HRW Asia director Brad Adams said."

The art of the headline "Wind Up" - happens all the time.

[jayboy]

Tensions increased throughout the day, as the afternoon brought news of increased fighting

in northern Thailand. Several explosions were heard outside the hospital. Later that day, the

protesters extended a clear plastic tube from one of the propane tanks toward the hospital

basement and, according to two witnesses, threatened to burn the building down. They later

withdrew the plastic tube after negotiating with hospital security guards. That evening

protesters returned to the emergency room to look for soldiers and police officers. They

spoke lewdly to physicians, nurses, and other hospital staff, and threatened to return the

next day to take them hostage.122

The next day, April 29, at about 6 p.m. UDD leader Phayap Panket and some 25 Red Guards

appeared at the gate of the emergency department with more than 100 protesters, some

carrying sharpened bamboo stakes, to demand they again be let in to search for police and

soldiers. UDD protesters shouted threats and obscenities, and grabbed the shirts of several

hospital guards. The protesters refused to believe the senior administrators' assurances that

soldiers were not permitted in the hospital. Hospital administrators called police, who had

not yet established a formal presence nearby.123

UDD leaders persisted in their demand to search the hospital. Hospital administrators felt

compelled by the large number of protesters to acquiesce, although requested a limited

number of searchers participate. However, several hundred stormed the hospital compound

and began to search two of the previously evacuated larger buildings. When police arrived,

they accompanied UDD leaders in their search of other hospital buildings, while other UDD

protesters walked throughout the hospital and surrounding grounds in small groups.

Physicians and nurses expressed shock at the brazen attitude of the UDD protesters. One

doctor told Human Rights Watch, "We are neutral.… Maybe they don't understand the

principles of the Red Cross."124

For safety reasons, the hospital administration decided that evening to close the emergency

room and pharmacy and moved most hospital staff to buildings further from the UDD

encampment. Hospital administrators held an emergency meeting and decided to evacuate

the entire hospital early the next morning. By 7 a.m. on April 30, staff began to transfer and

discharge the remaining 600 patients. By that evening only the Supreme Patriarch,

Thailand's most revered Buddhist monk, remained as a patient in the hospital. After he was

transferred the next day, the hospital had no patients.

The rush to move patients out of the Chulalongkorn Hospital was widely reported, with live

images of terminally ill patients being carried or wheeled out from the hospital buildings.

Among those patients, Thuanthong Vitthayacheewa died of heart failure on May 4 as his

condition worsened during the transfer.125

Several Red Shirt leaders soon apologized for the raid, calling it a mistake. Weng Tojirakarn,

a physician and protest leader, was quoted as saying, "The situation got out of control. It is

not our policy to obstruct hospital operations."126

Many Thais were outraged by the incursion into the hospital, leading even some sympathetic

to the UDD to question the methods and the judgment of their leaders.127

I am really interested in knowing if any of the red apologists in here can twist this fact and justify this terrorist action? Any takers? No? I didn't think so...

i am sure jayboy will be along soon with another of his ''jayboyisms'' to pick the holes in this and twist it around to defend the red revolutionists actions..........

No.It seems a very fair summary of that incident.

[timekeeper]

Tensions increased throughout the day, as the afternoon brought news of increased fighting

in northern Thailand. Several explosions were heard outside the hospital. Later that day, the

protesters extended a clear plastic tube from one of the propane tanks toward the hospital

basement and, according to two witnesses, threatened to burn the building down. They later

withdrew the plastic tube after negotiating with hospital security guards. That evening

protesters returned to the emergency room to look for soldiers and police officers. They

spoke lewdly to physicians, nurses, and other hospital staff, and threatened to return the

next day to take them hostage.122

The next day, April 29, at about 6 p.m. UDD leader Phayap Panket and some 25 Red Guards

appeared at the gate of the emergency department with more than 100 protesters, some

carrying sharpened bamboo stakes, to demand they again be let in to search for police and

soldiers. UDD protesters shouted threats and obscenities, and grabbed the shirts of several

hospital guards. The protesters refused to believe the senior administrators' assurances that

soldiers were not permitted in the hospital. Hospital administrators called police, who had

not yet established a formal presence nearby.123

UDD leaders persisted in their demand to search the hospital. Hospital administrators felt

compelled by the large number of protesters to acquiesce, although requested a limited

number of searchers participate. However, several hundred stormed the hospital compound

and began to search two of the previously evacuated larger buildings. When police arrived,

they accompanied UDD leaders in their search of other hospital buildings, while other UDD

protesters walked throughout the hospital and surrounding grounds in small groups.

Physicians and nurses expressed shock at the brazen attitude of the UDD protesters. One

doctor told Human Rights Watch, "We are neutral.… Maybe they don't understand the

principles of the Red Cross."124

For safety reasons, the hospital administration decided that evening to close the emergency

room and pharmacy and moved most hospital staff to buildings further from the UDD

encampment. Hospital administrators held an emergency meeting and decided to evacuate

the entire hospital early the next morning. By 7 a.m. on April 30, staff began to transfer and

discharge the remaining 600 patients. By that evening only the Supreme Patriarch,

Thailand's most revered Buddhist monk, remained as a patient in the hospital. After he was

transferred the next day, the hospital had no patients.

The rush to move patients out of the Chulalongkorn Hospital was widely reported, with live

images of terminally ill patients being carried or wheeled out from the hospital buildings.

Among those patients, Thuanthong Vitthayacheewa died of heart failure on May 4 as his

condition worsened during the transfer.125

Several Red Shirt leaders soon apologized for the raid, calling it a mistake. Weng Tojirakarn,

a physician and protest leader, was quoted as saying, "The situation got out of control. It is

not our policy to obstruct hospital operations."126

Many Thais were outraged by the incursion into the hospital, leading even some sympathetic

to the UDD to question the methods and the judgment of their leaders.127

I am really interested in knowing if any of the red apologists in here can twist this fact and justify this terrorist action? Any takers? No? I didn't think so...

i am sure jayboy will be along soon with another of his ''jayboyisms'' to pick the holes in this and twist it around to defend the red revolutionists actions..........

No.It seems a very fair summary of that incident.

as opposed to the pack of lies Robert Amsterdam version he is going to present to the court?

''Another example of this high-stakes form of negative public relations strategy involved the evacuation of Chulalongkorn Hospital in Bangkok on April 30, 2010. It was widely reported that the evacuation was prompted by an invasion of Red Shirt demonstrators searching for snipers. In fact, the incident was planned in advance by the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership, in collusion with certain members of the Thai media and certain members of the board of Chulalongkorn Hospital. After members of the press challenged Red Shirt leaders to back up their claims that Army snipers had fired shots from atop the hospital,hospital management immediately ordered the evacuation. There was never any genuine belief that the Red Shirt leaders presented a threat, and the orders to evacuate were given in order to heighten tensions and reinforce the false impression that the Red Shirts were violent and a threat to the Monarchy.The Government Leadership’s postponement of the beginning of the school year in May 2010 was also part of this anti-Red Shirt public relations strategy. The decision was not based on any actual or perceived threat from the Red Shirts, but was designed to create the illusion that they were dangerous.''

[jayboy]

as opposed to the pack of lies Robert Amsterdam version he is going to present to the court?

''Another example of this high-stakes form of negative public relations strategy involved the evacuation of Chulalongkorn Hospital in Bangkok on April 30, 2010. It was widely reported that the evacuation was prompted by an invasion of Red Shirt demonstrators searching for snipers. In fact, the incident was planned in advance by the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership, in collusion with certain members of the Thai media and certain members of the board of Chulalongkorn Hospital. After members of the press challenged Red Shirt leaders to back up their claims that Army snipers had fired shots from atop the hospital,hospital management immediately ordered the evacuation. There was never any genuine belief that the Red Shirt leaders presented a threat, and the orders to evacuate were given in order to heighten tensions and reinforce the false impression that the Red Shirts were violent and a threat to the Monarchy.The Government Leadership’s postponement of the beginning of the school year in May 2010 was also part of this anti-Red Shirt public relations strategy. The decision was not based on any actual or perceived threat from the Red Shirts, but was designed to create the illusion that they were dangerous.''

I give HRW much more credence than Robert Amsterdam, particularly because as well as having a fine track record it is independent.Amsterdam isn't given that he's paid by Thaksin.

Also on HRW generally I don't succumb to the hypocrisy of invoking it when it supports my political position and belittling it when it doesn't.

On Amsterdam I prefer to look at what he has to say rather than abuse the man personally

[timekeeper]

as opposed to the pack of lies Robert Amsterdam version he is going to present to the court?

''Another example of this high-stakes form of negative public relations strategy involved the evacuation of Chulalongkorn Hospital in Bangkok on April 30, 2010. It was widely reported that the evacuation was prompted by an invasion of Red Shirt demonstrators searching for snipers. In fact, the incident was planned in advance by the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership, in collusion with certain members of the Thai media and certain members of the board of Chulalongkorn Hospital. After members of the press challenged Red Shirt leaders to back up their claims that Army snipers had fired shots from atop the hospital,hospital management immediately ordered the evacuation. There was never any genuine belief that the Red Shirt leaders presented a threat, and the orders to evacuate were given in order to heighten tensions and reinforce the false impression that the Red Shirts were violent and a threat to the Monarchy.The Government Leadership's postponement of the beginning of the school year in May 2010 was also part of this anti-Red Shirt public relations strategy. The decision was not based on any actual or perceived threat from the Red Shirts, but was designed to create the illusion that they were dangerous.''

I give HRW much more credence than Robert Amsterdam, particularly because as well as having a fine track record it is independent.Amsterdam isn't given that he's paid by Thaksin.

Also on HRW generally I don't succumb to the hypocrisy of invoking it when it supports my political position and belittling it when it doesn't.

On Amsterdam I prefer to look at what he has to say rather than abuse the man personally

i belittle all human rights groups and PC do gooders

the world was a much better place without them

Amsterdam is a law whore, he will say whatever he is asked to, if the pay is good enough

he is a man truly devoid of any morals or principles

i think that reflects on what he has to say and therefore taints my view of it

[Buchholz]

Tensions increased throughout the day, as the afternoon brought news of increased fighting

in northern Thailand. Several explosions were heard outside the hospital. Later that day, the

protesters extended a clear plastic tube from one of the propane tanks toward the hospital

basement and, according to two witnesses, threatened to burn the building down. They later

withdrew the plastic tube after negotiating with hospital security guards. That evening

protesters returned to the emergency room to look for soldiers and police officers. They

spoke lewdly to physicians, nurses, and other hospital staff, and threatened to return the

next day to take them hostage.122

The next day, April 29, at about 6 p.m. UDD leader Phayap Panket and some 25 Red Guards

appeared at the gate of the emergency department with more than 100 protesters, some

carrying sharpened bamboo stakes, to demand they again be let in to search for police and

soldiers. UDD protesters shouted threats and obscenities, and grabbed the shirts of several

hospital guards. The protesters refused to believe the senior administrators' assurances that

soldiers were not permitted in the hospital. Hospital administrators called police, who had

not yet established a formal presence nearby.123

UDD leaders persisted in their demand to search the hospital. Hospital administrators felt

compelled by the large number of protesters to acquiesce, although requested a limited

number of searchers participate. However, several hundred stormed the hospital compound

and began to search two of the previously evacuated larger buildings. When police arrived,

they accompanied UDD leaders in their search of other hospital buildings, while other UDD

protesters walked throughout the hospital and surrounding grounds in small groups.

Physicians and nurses expressed shock at the brazen attitude of the UDD protesters. One

doctor told Human Rights Watch, "We are neutral.… Maybe they don't understand the

principles of the Red Cross."124

For safety reasons, the hospital administration decided that evening to close the emergency

room and pharmacy and moved most hospital staff to buildings further from the UDD

encampment. Hospital administrators held an emergency meeting and decided to evacuate

the entire hospital early the next morning. By 7 a.m. on April 30, staff began to transfer and

discharge the remaining 600 patients. By that evening only the Supreme Patriarch,

Thailand's most revered Buddhist monk, remained as a patient in the hospital. After he was

transferred the next day, the hospital had no patients.

The rush to move patients out of the Chulalongkorn Hospital was widely reported, with live

images of terminally ill patients being carried or wheeled out from the hospital buildings.

Among those patients, Thuanthong Vitthayacheewa died of heart failure on May 4 as his

condition worsened during the transfer.125

Several Red Shirt leaders soon apologized for the raid, calling it a mistake. Weng Tojirakarn,

a physician and protest leader, was quoted as saying, "The situation got out of control. It is

not our policy to obstruct hospital operations."126

Many Thais were outraged by the incursion into the hospital, leading even some sympathetic

to the UDD to question the methods and the judgment of their leaders.127

I am really interested in knowing if any of the red apologists in here can twist this fact and justify this terrorist action? Any takers? No? I didn't think so...

The Supreme Patriarch or Sangharaja (Thai: พระสังฆราช) is the head of the order of Buddhist monks in Thailand. The position is formally appointed by the King of Thailand, although the actual selection is made by senior clergymen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Patriarch_of_Thailand

The 96 year-old Supreme Patriarch of Thailand, Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara, being evacuated from Chulalongkorn Hospital following its storming by Red Shirts:

Given his extreme age and frailty, it is very fortunate he didn't meet the same consequence of other evacuees....

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters’ intrusion of the compound last week.

.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

as opposed to the pack of lies Robert Amsterdam version he is going to present to the court?

''Another example of this high-stakes form of negative public relations strategy involved the evacuation of Chulalongkorn Hospital in Bangkok on April 30, 2010. It was widely reported that the evacuation was prompted by an invasion of Red Shirt demonstrators searching for snipers. In fact, the incident was planned in advance by the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership, in collusion with certain members of the Thai media and certain members of the board of Chulalongkorn Hospital. After members of the press challenged Red Shirt leaders to back up their claims that Army snipers had fired shots from atop the hospital,hospital management immediately ordered the evacuation. There was never any genuine belief that the Red Shirt leaders presented a threat, and the orders to evacuate were given in order to heighten tensions and reinforce the false impression that the Red Shirts were violent and a threat to the Monarchy.The Government Leadership's postponement of the beginning of the school year in May 2010 was also part of this anti-Red Shirt public relations strategy. The decision was not based on any actual or perceived threat from the Red Shirts, but was designed to create the illusion that they were dangerous.''

I give HRW much more credence than Robert Amsterdam, particularly because as well as having a fine track record it is independent.Amsterdam isn't given that he's paid by Thaksin.

Also on HRW generally I don't succumb to the hypocrisy of invoking it when it supports my political position and belittling it when it doesn't.

On Amsterdam I prefer to look at what he has to say rather than abuse the man personally

i belittle all human rights groups and PC do gooders

the world was a much better place without them

Amsterdam is a law whore, he will say whatever he is asked to, if the pay is good enough

he is a man truly devoid of any morals or principles

i think that reflects on what he has to say and therefore taints my view of it

If you belittle "all human rights groups and PC do gooders" and state that "Amsterdam is a law whore" isn't it a little fatuous of you to refer to a report by the former to denigrate a report by the latter?

[rubl]

The HRW is 100% correct and only an idiot would deny this or try to justify the army's actions.

The HRW maybe close to 100% correct

It is quite factual and balanced, unlike THE BANGKOK MASSACRES: A CALL FOR ACCOUNTABILITY by Amsterdam & Peroff LLP, who supposedly are fighting to uphold human rights.

I think the report should be translated into Thai so that the Thai people can make a better informed decision when they vote. Some time ago I was surprised to see Amsterdam's submission to the world court in Thai printed and posted outside the UDD's office in Imperial World Lat Phrao.

I'm not sure who would like to stand outside the UDD's office handing out free copies of he translated HRW report. I also do not think anyone campaigning upcountry would like to stress UDD activties too much. Handing out the Robert A. report is no problem of course

[Pi Sek]

I give HRW much more credence than Robert Amsterdam, particularly because as well as having a fine track record it is independent.Amsterdam isn't given that he's paid by Thaksin.

Also on HRW generally I don't succumb to the hypocrisy of invoking it when it supports my political position and belittling it when it doesn't.

On Amsterdam I prefer to look at what he has to say rather than abuse the man personally

i belittle all human rights groups and PC do gooders

the world was a much better place without them

Amsterdam is a law whore, he will say whatever he is asked to, if the pay is good enough

he is a man truly devoid of any morals or principles

i think that reflects on what he has to say and therefore taints my view of it

If you belittle "all human rights groups and PC do gooders" and state that "Amsterdam is a law whore" isn't it a little fatuous of you to refer to a report by the former to denigrate a report by the latter?

The three of you raise valid points.

I think that Human Rights groups like HRW and AI, as I said in an earlier thread, have compromised their credibility with exaggeration and over-representation. They have an agenda - to "condemn atrocities" and to appear to be one of those at the forefront to do so - but it is not related to Thailand's domestic politics. However, if they say something happened, then the onus is on the accused to respond. Therefore they do have a positive impact.

The agenda of Amsterdam on the other hand, is all about bending, twisting or breaking some truths and mixing them with some unaltered truths to his clients' requirements. Because of this, he does not deserve any credibility whatsoever and, even if his "White Paper" did include some true issues which should be investigated, his discussion of them actually means less likelihood of their investigation because the source is not reliable. In truth his arguments are not intended to right wrongs, they are intended to cast doubt and confusion.

There is a Thaivisa member here that claims his wife had a miscarriage due to the UDD Chulalongkorn invasion, and has asked me for advice on prosecuting Jatuporn (not really feasible) for authorising the raid - I suggested to go for Payap Panket, as he led it. As always on TV, maybe this was a little white lie (wouldn't have been the first time I'm sure), but maybe this user ought to clarify on record to the DSI what exactly he witnessed. And give an account here too!

[monkfish]

Suthep: Why listen to farangs?

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 10:55 | by prachatai On 4 May, in response to the Human Rights Watch report on the government crackdown on the red shirts last year,

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said that he felt sorry and that the organization should have been impartial

and should have checked the facts before saying anything which tarnished Thailand’s agencies or the image of Thailand.

It’s a pity that when 3,000 people were extra-judicially killed during Thaksin’s administration, where was this organization?

Never heard their voice. President John F Kennedy was killed, and until now it’s never been clear.

If Thailand faces difficulties in doing its job, why blame [us]? The relevant authorities are still working on finding the facts.

The impartial fact-finding commission, the Khanit Na Nakhon commission, is working. Why don’t we listen to people like Khanit?

Why do we have to listen to farangs who accuse Thailand?’ Suthep asked.

http://www.prachatai3.info/english/node/2485

[jdinasia]

I would agree with Pi Sek (for the most part),

Groups like HRW and AI have over the years moved further and further away from reality and simply support a utopian ideal. I know it is a symptom of me getting older but I am getting more conservative. I applaud people working for equality and humanity. That being said, it needs to take into account reality. When a lengthy report comes out with 3 deaths they can supposedly directly attribute to the military (don't beat on my if things have changed --- I have been busy!) and more deaths attributable to the redshirts, and looking at the reality on the ground during an armed insurrection -- I would say that while those three deaths they say can be directly attributed to the security forces are three too many ... they aren't excessive. The strident claims of "massacre" just don't bear the weight of honest analysis. I will, in this instance, give HRW a positive review in that they seem to have maintained some neutrality even if they fail to produce facts and tend to refer back to themselves as if they are by nature beyond reproach.

I would say that they certainly failed in the past to even try and be neutral at times, and that they have failed in the past to push issues hard enough that I think warrant it (yes I am aware of the irony in that last statement!)

[rubl]

"In plain view government forces shot protesters and armed militants shot soldiers, but no one has been held responsible," HRW Asia director Brad Adams said.

Is this the same Adams who in 2003 said the following. Mind you that was about the 'War on Drugs'

"The U.N. and foreign governments expressed concern over the slaughter, but little more. Human-rights groups were appalled. "The Thais have gone from being the leader in rights to a country that seems to almost resemble its neighbors Cambodia and Burma," says Adams of Human Rights Watch."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,461898,00.html

[fma]

phiphidon

Are you still on that crusade of yours

trying to blame someone for the massive destruction and fire in bkk and up country

instigated en mass by our favorite leaders Jatuporn and all?

There surely are many other worthy causes you can contribute to, I am certain of that.

Good to see that the perspective and sympathy is on material losses for the owners of Central World.

[phiphidon]

"In plain view government forces shot protesters and armed militants shot soldiers, but no one has been held responsible," HRW Asia director Brad Adams said.

Is this the same Adams who in 2003 said the following. Mind you that was about the 'War on Drugs'

"The U.N. and foreign governments expressed concern over the slaughter, but little more. Human-rights groups were appalled. "The Thais have gone from being the leader in rights to a country that seems to almost resemble its neighbors Cambodia and Burma," says Adams of Human Rights Watch."

http://www.time.com/...,461898,00.html

Human Rights Watch have had more than a few dealings with Thailand and more recently than 2003 - e.g Abhsiits government treatment of the Rohingya people, 2009, http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/3984 and then again, same subject, in February 2011, http://www.hrw.org/e...gya-boat-people and maybe will have more to say if Burma get to chair Asean in 2013, so , really, what is your point?

[rubl]

"In plain view government forces shot protesters and armed militants shot soldiers, but no one has been held responsible," HRW Asia director Brad Adams said.

Is this the same Adams who in 2003 said the following. Mind you that was about the 'War on Drugs'

"The U.N. and foreign governments expressed concern over the slaughter, but little more. Human-rights groups were appalled. "The Thais have gone from being the leader in rights to a country that seems to almost resemble its neighbors Cambodia and Burma," says Adams of Human Rights Watch."

http://www.time.com/...,461898,00.html

Human Rights Watch have had more than a few dealings with Thailand and more recently than 2003 - e.g Abhsiits government treatment of the Rohingya people, 2009, http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/3984 and then again, same subject, in February 2011, http://www.hrw.org/e...gya-boat-people and maybe will have more to say if Burma get to chair Asean in 2013, so , really, what is your point?

Come on, PPD. It's you who started distracting from the topic by asking insignificant details like

"'Is there any determination which army branch was on the elevated tracks?

Was it army, as some would choose to assume?"

The HRW report (yes, please do read it) clearly puts blame on the government / army side AND UDD / militant red-shirts side. To my knowledge the first time we see this type/kind of detail. Yes the government is to blame not to have opened up, yes the red-shirts are to blame by ignoring their part of the violence.

If you ask 'which branch of the army', I may equally ask which branch of the red-shirts. Of historical and scientific value to know, but only distracting at the moment when the global picture is only slowly emerging. Next you'll ask me the percentage of red-shirts innocent because they were deaf after listening to the sound blast of the main stage for 2 months

So let's put things in scope:

"Based on investigations conducted in Bangkok and in

Thailand’s central and northeastern regions from June 2010 to

April 2011, this report provides the first full account of the

violence and the reasons behind it. The high death toll and

injuries resulted from excessive and unnecessary lethal force

on the part of security forces, including firing of live

ammunition at protesters, sometimes by snipers. Soldiers

fatally shot at least four people, including a medic treating the

wounded, in or near a temple in Bangkok on May 19, despite

army claims to the contrary. The extensive casualties also

resulted from deliberate attacks by militant armed elements

of the UDD, whose leaders contributed to the violence with

inflammatory speeches to demonstrators, including urging

their supporters to carry out riots, arson attacks, and looting.

The heavily armed “Black Shirt” militants, apparently

connected to the UDD and operating in tandem with it, were

responsible for deadly attacks on soldiers, police, and

civilians."

Don't know link, copied from the PDF made available.

[phiphidon]

Come on, PPD. It's you who started distracting from the topic by asking insignificant details like

"'Is there any determination which army branch was on the elevated tracks?

Was it army, as some would choose to assume?"

The HRW report (yes, please do read it) clearly puts blame on the government / army side AND UDD / militant red-shirts side. To my knowledge the first time we see this type/kind of detail. Yes the government is to blame not to have opened up, yes the red-shirts are to blame by ignoring their part of the violence.

If you ask 'which branch of the army', I may equally ask which branch of the red-shirts. Of historical and scientific value to know, but only distracting at the moment when the global picture is only slowly emerging. Next you'll ask me the percentage of red-shirts innocent because they were deaf after listening to the sound blast of the main stage for 2 months

So let's put things in scope:

"Based on investigations conducted in Bangkok and in

Thailand's central and northeastern regions from June 2010 to

April 2011, this report provides the first full account of the

violence and the reasons behind it. The high death toll and

injuries resulted from excessive and unnecessary lethal force

on the part of security forces, including firing of live

ammunition at protesters, sometimes by snipers. Soldiers

fatally shot at least four people, including a medic treating the

wounded, in or near a temple in Bangkok on May 19, despite

army claims to the contrary. The extensive casualties also

resulted from deliberate attacks by militant armed elements

of the UDD, whose leaders contributed to the violence with

inflammatory speeches to demonstrators, including urging

their supporters to carry out riots, arson attacks, and looting.

The heavily armed "Black Shirt" militants, apparently

connected to the UDD and operating in tandem with it, were

responsible for deadly attacks on soldiers, police, and

civilians."

Don't know link, copied from the PDF made available.

Whoa, there Tonto! It was he who writes in Zen Haiku stylee, aka Animatic that asked for those stupid insignificant details, not me. I could have googled to see if the black shirts had invested in sky hooks so they could cleverly shoot from above and behind the special forces troops on the BTS tracks so they could blacken the name of the thai army, but I just wrote it off as a "I've got to come up with something" moment on his behalf - so don't go blaming that BS on me.

And yes I have read the report and you may have read in another post by me that it's a shame that the government hasn't put in the effort to come up with something similar - now all people are going to think is that they never intended to - Reconciliation, Abhisit BS.

Edit to add reference to animatic post Post No.9 Read and well, up to you really...............

Edited again to add full animatic post so that the above makes sense;

Posted 2011-05-03 18:14:26

So men in uniforms fired into the wat,

and men out of uniforms fired at soldiers.

What is missing is even the slightest hint at who these men were working for in either case.

Is there any determination which army branch was on the elevated tracks?

Was it army, as some would choose to assume?

Or Watermellon army,

Or a faction acting on their own because of the previous street riot

Or ex army militants posing as army to embarrase the army?

Was it someone from behind and above the army on the tracks shooting past/over them.

Of of these four, if it was either of three the later,

then their objective was reached,

of making the army look bad when closing down the riot scene.

This was one of the obvious goals for the Red Side:

Embarras the army and make the masses turn on them.

If that is part of a whole concept,

then has Amsterdam brought this up on

the NY groups radar at this time,

for exactly this reason?

This post has been edited by animatic: 2011-05-03 18:18:10

Edited May 6, 2011 by phiphidon

[rubl]

Whoa, there Tonto! It was he who writes in Zen Haiku stylee, aka Animatic that asked for those stupid insignificant details, not me. I could have googled to see if the black shirts had invested in sky hooks so they could cleverly shoot from above and behind the special forces troops on the BTS tracks so they could blacken the name of the thai army, but I just wrote it off as a "I've got to come up with something" moment on his behalf - so don't go blaming that BS on me.

My apologies, dear phiphidon, you're right. Don't know how that happened, maybe I got confused between

text

and "text" and 'text'. Please consider the blame on that part shifted Edited May 7, 2011 by rubl

[phiphidon]

Whoa, there Tonto! It was he who writes in Zen Haiku stylee, aka Animatic that asked for those stupid insignificant details, not me. I could have googled to see if the black shirts had invested in sky hooks so they could cleverly shoot from above and behind the special forces troops on the BTS tracks so they could blacken the name of the thai army, but I just wrote it off as a "I've got to come up with something" moment on his behalf - so don't go blaming that BS on me.

My apologies, dear phiphidon, you're right. Don't know how that happened, maybe I got confused between

text

and "text" and 'text'. Please consider the blame on that part shifted

So, I'm still to blame for the other parts? Apologies accepted, but that's what happens when people remove the text in the quote boxes (presumably because they don't agree with it and can't stand the idea of seeing it in print again) people get confused and lose the thread (if not the plot in some cases )

[TAWP]

BBC World this morning reports that over 580 civilians have been killed in the Syrian protests.

Just putting things in a perspective.

[rubl]

My apologies, dear phiphidon, you're right. Don't know how that happened, maybe I got confused between

text

and "text" and 'text'. Please consider the blame on that part shifted

So, I'm still to blame for the other parts? Apologies accepted, but that's what happens when people remove the text in the quote boxes (presumably because they don't agree with it and can't stand the idea of seeing it in print again) people get confused and lose the thread (if not the plot in some cases )

I really like it when people know how to gracefully accept voluntarily offered excuses. Having said that ...

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said that he felt sorry and that the organization should have been impartial and should have checked the facts before saying anything which tarnished Thailand’s agencies or the image of Thailand.

So far I don't think I've seen any comment from H.M. loyal opposition (e.g. the PTP), from any of the UDD leaders, or for that matter anyone from the other red-shirt factions. Seen a few red-shirt sites in the USA stressing 'government to blame' while studiously ignoring other bits and pieces. The Robert A. site mentions 'Bangkok’s daily newspaper The Nation is in full damage control over a pair of devastating reports'

So let's repeat from the beginning of the HRW report, quoting from the PDF made available:

"Based on investigations conducted in Bangkok and in

Thailand’s central and northeastern regions from June 2010 to

April 2011, this report provides the first full account of the

violence and the reasons behind it. The high death toll and

injuries resulted from excessive and unnecessary lethal force

on the part of security forces, including firing of live

ammunition at protesters, sometimes by snipers. Soldiers

fatally shot at least four people, including a medic treating the

wounded, in or near a temple in Bangkok on May 19, despite

army claims to the contrary. The extensive casualties also

resulted from deliberate attacks by militant armed elements

of the UDD, whose leaders contributed to the violence with

inflammatory speeches to demonstrators, including urging

their supporters to carry out riots, arson attacks, and looting.

The heavily armed “Black Shirt” militants, apparently

connected to the UDD and operating in tandem with it, were

responsible for deadly attacks on soldiers, police, and

civilians."

Copyright © 2011 Human Rights Watch

[animatic]

Shame the witnesses in the report couldn't shed further light on which group this guy could belong to....

A graphic making of my point.

It is in no way obvious who's side this guy was one,

but it IS obvious, he doesn't want to be identified.

A very telling point if you play malfeasance's.

So there were soldiers on the bridge,

it is definitely not in any way confirmed that

ONLY serving Army personell were on the trains

and that ONLY serving Army personal shot into the wats.

Some have called this position "Denial"

I call it not being an absolutist in a world

of many gray shades.

Edited May 7, 2011 by animatic

[phiphidon]

I really like it when people know how to gracefully accept voluntarily offered excuses. Having said that ...

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said that he felt sorry and that the organization should have been impartial and should have checked the facts before saying anything which tarnished Thailand's agencies or the image of Thailand.

So far I don't think I've seen any comment from H.M. loyal opposition (e.g. the PTP), from any of the UDD leaders, or for that matter anyone from the other red-shirt factions. Seen a few red-shirt sites in the USA stressing 'government to blame' while studiously ignoring other bits and pieces. The Robert A. site mentions 'Bangkok's daily newspaper The Nation is in full damage control over a pair of devastating reports'

And I really love it when people give voluntary apologies without caveats, e.g "Please consider the blame on that part shifted" - well blow me down if i don't come over all grateful like............

(the bloody editing s/w has told me I have too many quotes so prepare for your post to be trimmed - we got the idea anyway from the first time you posted it)

[rubl]

Well thank you for your kind reply, dear phiphidon. Still I'm not satisfied. Nothing to do with apologies or acceptance of them. No, much more simplistic. I'm waiting for a reaction on the HRW report, this time from UDD, PTP or some of the other red-shirt factions. As I said

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said that he felt sorry and that the organization should have been impartial and should have checked the facts before saying anything which tarnished Thailand's agencies or the image of Thailand.

So far I don't think I've seen any comment from H.M.'s loyal opposition (e.g. the PTP), from any of the UDD leaders, or for that matter anyone from the other red-shirt factions. Seen a few red-shirt sites in the USA stressing 'government to blame' while studiously ignoring other bits and pieces. The Robert A. site mentions 'Bangkok's daily newspaper The Nation is in full damage control over a pair of devastating reports'

[whybother]

Maybe this is something that they can add to their report:

BMA discovers cache of weapons and ammunition while dredging sewage pipes in front of Siam Paragon shopping mall; police to investigate /TAN_Network

[rubl]

BREAKINGNEWS

Machine gun found in drain in front of Siam Paragon

A machine gun and some ammunition were found in a bag left in a drain in front of Siam Paragon shopping mall Monday.

The bag was found by workers who were cleaning the drain.

The gun, 50 rounds of ammunition, a silencer, a magazine and a giant firecracker, were found in the bag.

Police said they have yet to identify the made of the gun.[thenation][/thenation]

Pure coincidence, nothing to do with us, in front of the main stage, must have been planted by shadowy army groups supporting the government, ect., etc.

We, 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' involved in any mishap? NO, of course not. The HRW report must have been sponso-red by the government

[phiphidon]

Well thank you for your kind reply, dear phiphidon. Still I'm not satisfied. Nothing to do with apologies or acceptance of them. No, much more simplistic. I'm waiting for a reaction on the HRW report, this time from UDD, PTP or some of the other red-shirt factions. As I said

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said that he felt sorry and that the organization should have been impartial and should have checked the facts before saying anything which tarnished Thailand's agencies or the image of Thailand.

So far I don't think I've seen any comment from H.M.'s loyal opposition (e.g. the PTP), from any of the UDD leaders, or for that matter anyone from the other red-shirt factions. Seen a few red-shirt sites in the USA stressing 'government to blame' while studiously ignoring other bits and pieces. The Robert A. site mentions 'Bangkok's daily newspaper The Nation is in full damage control over a pair of devastating reports'

Well this'll probably upset you as well;

Over the last few days commentators from all sides of the Thai political divide have been pouring over Human Rights™ Watch report into the events of Bangkok 2010. Entitled A Descent into Chaos this report is certainly the best that has yet been produced by any human rights NGO that has any connection to Thailand.

Already it has drawn bizarre comments from Thailand's Deputy Prime Minister Suthep, who suggested that the US-based HRW go and work out who killed JFK before conducting any inquiry into Thai human rights abuses.

On the other extreme are those who believe that the HRW report is now the definitive account of what happened during the Bangkok Massacre of April/May 2010 and anyone who dares to offer any critique of it is either a Thaksin stooge or a supporter of terrorism. A more sober analysis other than unhinged comments or just a slavish acceptance is clearly more preferable.

More at http://asiancorrespo...lance%e2%80%9d/

As for your mention of Sutheps comments about checking facts before tarnishing Thailands image - I really think he needs to look long and hard in the mirror............

[rubl]

Well this'll probably upset you as well;

More at http://asiancorrespo...lance%e2%80%9d/

Not at all. I've said a while back something like 'as far as I know this is the first report which doesn't only blame government/army'. I've never said it's perfect, it just a step in the right direction.

What surprises me of the quoted article is "Ultimately, what one is struck by when reading the HRW report is the more pressing need to effect a “balance” rather than get closer to the truth."