Thai Health Ministry Speaks Regarding Chiang Mai Downtown Inn Deaths

[moe666]

The great Chiang Mai hotel Deaths are a bit like a certain birth certificate. Show us the original put all of this speculation to rest. The orginal is produced and immediately declared a forgery. There are posters here who will never be happy with what Thailand does or doesn't do, Just give it a rest people, sometime people just die even young people.

[OzMick]

I found this interesting:

"There have been reports that a Canadian man who died in January may have used the swimming pool of the hotel where the Thai woman, the New Zealand women and the United Kingdom couple stayed (hotel number 3 above)."

Seems more than a bit tenuous, unless of course he died in the pool, and they left him there.

[random]

The great Chiang Mai hotel Deaths are a bit like a certain birth certificate. Show us the original put all of this speculation to rest. The orginal is produced and immediately declared a forgery. There are posters here who will never be happy with what Thailand does or doesn't do, Just give it a rest people, sometime people just die even young people.

please accept my commiserations, you have actually become Thai, although not as bad as the other cheerleader in this thread.

[The Snark]

Some observations.

In Thai culture and society, when an incident like this occurs, the general desire is to sweep things under the rug and give it the old 'mai pen rai'. Don't cause a loss of face, don't make waves, maintain the status quo. This attitude, while often commendable, tends to drive farangs crazy, especially when something could be corrected or handled better. Confront it and fix it, the farang mentality, goes dead against the mai pen rai and the face game.

The problem comes in when the international community gets involved. Mai pen rai, respect the higher authority, don't make waves, toss a few excuses, have some jao nai pull some weight etc is utterly unacceptable. What severely exacerbates the situation is when someone snivels that it is bad for our business. That is the failing of mai pen rai and Thai culture in general. It is a selfish self centered attitude. While that flies locally, this incident is not local. On the other hand, the correct and proper response, launching an immediate investigation, demanding all the facts be brought out, and eventually exoneration will come to pass, the acceptable farang attitude, is completely opposed by Thai culture. This is something Thai's must learn to confront. On the international playing field the rules are extremely different, as this incident exemplifies. Protecting your jao nai's and business face and let the entire tourism industry take a hit instead does not cut it.

So what we have is a culture clash. As much as I love and respect the Thai people, they need to get a grip on the larger world they are emerging into. They can't both play the face and mai pen rai game and expect to be taken seriously, and respected, in international circles at the same time when the crap comes off the walls. Act in a mature responsible manner, take a minor face hit if need be to get to the bottom of the matter, then with head held high for a job well and properly done you move on. That would ultimately have made Thailand come out looking far better in the eyes of the international community instead of this present months long duck and dodge, even if the cause of the deaths is never determined. Payayam commands a far more valuable and significant respect than the face game in this modern world.

[The Snark]

Generally speaking, the problem in a nutshell:

The Thai boss:

"I don't want to hear about fixing the problem! I want to hear excuses. I want fingers pointed in some other direction."

The farang boss: (How many of us have had this barked in our faces at one time or another?)

"I don't want to hear excuses! I want the problem fixed!"

[anterian]

Would the owner, his family and staff be prepared to stay in the guest rooms, would Abhisit and co?

i seem to remember at the height of the "Mad cow" hysteria in the UK the Health Minister publicly ate a beef sandwich.

[Card]

Rather predictable outcome.

I'm talking about the TV posters' response. Major incident happens; TV response - it will be covered up. Authorities launch investigation; TV response - it's too late and they'll find nothing. Coming soon, authorities provide findings; TV response - they are lying, you can't trust them.

Laughable

Agreed. I blame Hollywood when it comes to conspiracy theories. That and poor education, low self esteem, a lack of social skills and immaturity. Just look at all the conspiracy garbage surrounding Strauss-Kahn's arrest coming from anti-Americans and/or the French. And I'm not even American. Whatever happens in these cases, these guys just twist it all around to produce yet another conspiracy. I think it all started with Bruce Lee's death years ago and is like the Christian guy in the USA whose prediction of the end of the world has been torn apart - he just said "oops" and changed the date (and no refunds,sorry folks, not my fault you spent your life savings).

[phetpeter]

All young women, perhaps it could some form of date rape drug! which was the prelude to rape/robbery in the room? Same for the old couple.except the rape!) placed in the free bottles of water in the rooms? Certain medicines used in date rape will clear the system quickly (i ain't going to name them!) Then of course there are others to put you to sleep! And there Doctor watson are my ideas to what has been happening! Deadly reactions to pharmacy drugs used with criminal intend, so they should be looking at possible other customers who cannot remember or think they have lost things!

[OZEMADE]

Shut the hotel down pending the outcome of the investigation. If they wont shut it down, advertise the risk as much as you can and boycot the Hotel.

[Pib]

This investigation has been slow leaked by Thai authorities. While some experts from other countries where brought in early, I don't think they were given the support and funding needed to do a good investigation when evidence was still fresh. Time can sweep away important evidence. Hopefully modern technology can still find the root cause but a lot of time has passed with most (maybe all) of the victims already buried/cremated/etc....hopefully enough tissue/blood samples were retained and thorough autopsies accomplished. Sure hope the current experts find the definite cause versus end up saying it could have been this or that.

[biplanebluey]

Interestingly,pharmacological descriptions of chlorpyrifos state that it has a mild sulphurous odour.

SO!!!

[exbelg]

maybe these hotels need a big banner in front of the entrace : staying in this place can seriously damage your health (aka we are not responsible if you do not survive your stay)

[Crushdepth]

I'm talking about the TV posters' response. Major incident happens; TV response - it will be covered up. Authorities launch investigation; TV response - it's too late and they'll find nothing. Coming soon, authorities provide findings; TV response - they are lying, you can't trust them.

Laughable

A stereotype yes but with significant grounding in fact. I wonder if they'll blame the "third hand" again. I wish someone would catch that thing.

[jimbeam1]

The great Chiang Mai hotel Deaths are a bit like a certain birth certificate. Show us the original put all of this speculation to rest. The orginal is produced and immediately declared a forgery. There are posters here who will never be happy with what Thailand does or doesn't do, Just give it a rest people, sometime people just die even young people.

please accept my commiserations, you have actually become Thai, although not as bad as the other cheerleader in this thread.

+1

jb1

[jimbeam1]

Rather predictable outcome.

I'm talking about the TV posters' response. Major incident happens; TV response - it will be covered up. Authorities launch investigation; TV response - it's too late and they'll find nothing. Coming soon, authorities provide findings; TV response - they are lying, you can't trust them.

Laughable

What short memories PHI-PHI. Still waiting.

jb1

[lovelaos]

Generally speaking, the problem in a nutshell:

The Thai boss:

"I don't want to hear about fixing the problem! I want to hear excuses. I want fingers pointed in some other direction."

The farang boss: (How many of us have had this barked in our faces at one time or another?)

"I don't want to hear excuses! I want the problem fixed!"

Agree 100%

[Foggy Bottom]

In Germany we have a pandemic of ehc coli bacteria. No one knows for the moment why.

Currently in Chiang Mai there is a pandemic of the E. Cohok bacteria similar to other outbreaks around the Kingdom. Everyone knows why this occurs: it is a result of the raksaa naa plague that has long impacted human habitation throughout the Siam region of the Golden Peninsula over the past century.

Sorry if i am being thick but what are you on about?

I thought that was very witty.

I think he means e gohok bacteria BS/lying bacteria & raksaa naa - saving face plague.

rak saa naa - love mulberry paper field ??

[TigerWan]

And the hotel at the center of this remains open for business and hosting guests.... yet they still don't know what killed the people who were staying there....

I can't help but thinking back to the report in the 60 Minutes piece, with the reporter who visited the hotel saying the night she was there they were turning the place upside down because they were expecting an inspection the next day... So after all these months, what evidence is likely to be found in the hotel and its rooms.... Probably nothing...

As someone said above, this latest pronouncement would have been well-received, had it come on the heels of the deaths when everything was fresh... not so many months later that everything has dissipated or been cleaned away.

Let's not forget, at earlier points in time, the Thai authorities were insisting all the deaths were simply unrelated coincidence... Ya right... So now, after all this time, we get an international investigation.

Me thinks you did not read the latest update. The Downtown Inn is not the connection and <deleted>, that, " Coincidence" statement was made ONE TIME much earlier at a press conference when the couple were found and I believe it was this couple that was the coincidence the CM Gov was speaking of.

That referral is constantly made in the press, and on the forums to sensationalize the story. Please stop repeating it.

Yeah T authorities are as slow as molasses in January , but evidence was collected at time of deaths, an investigation has been ongoing since. There are reports that Ms Carter;s family would not allow an autopsy .

AND it takes a lot of time for toxicology and tissue reports to get back.

It isn't a one hour CSI episode.

I also wish in vain Thais should not speak in English but hire translators and issue statements this way. Too often, it seems the bad English skills just convey misunderstandings.

So Myocarditus is not the culprit , though well be related- and seems Mr. Bill Mah did not fit in as I suspected and have outlined on one of the numerous threads running about this subject .

Seem that bit if Info and also perhaps even the early "toxic seaweed" reference emanated from Drummond reporting the American, Ms. Vorster ate at a Japanese restaurant. That too is now known as not connected

My theory; a serial casual poisoner, who may not even be aware some are dying as it seems underlying conditions affect the mortality. Targets young, attractive western women -too many , the odds are way against accidental.

My next question is : Who was traveling with the unnamed French woman who was ill before her arrival?

Edited May 25, 2011 by TigerWan

[creck]

Interestingly,pharmacological descriptions of chlorpyrifos state that it has a mild sulphurous odour.

This is an important point. If a reference could be sent to the MOPH maybe it would help.

[creck]

Yes, there is some speculation in the TV posts – but not a lot at this time.

It is a fact that this level of investigation is reduced in effectiveness by being late.

It is a fact that the Hotel and local Police dismissed several deaths within a brief space of time and location as coincidence and suggested unlikely causes without much evidence.

It is speculation but highly likely, that this extra assistance of international toxicology experts was prompted by an investigative television program. It should not have needed that.

The best speculation is that the deaths have stopped. Let us hope so. But problems that go away by themselves can come back by themselves.

[Methuselah]

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/chlorptech.pdf

Under Physical/Chemical properties,chlorpyrifos is described as having a mild odour---.

The ministry of Health statement contradicts this by stating"chlorpyrifos generally emits a strong odour which was not noted by the two surviving women"

Are we being misled?

[The Snark]

Please compare how the hotel death investigation was performed to this incident.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html

It is easy to point fingers in Thailand because of a poor track record and alleged corruption being common. But let us not for one minute think all is smiles and sunshine elsewhere in the world.

[lovetotravel]

Please compare how the hotel death investigation was performed to this incident.

http://www.huffingto...-_n_867020.html

It is easy to point fingers in Thailand because of a poor track record and alleged corruption being common. But let us not for one minute think all is smiles and sunshine elsewhere in the world.

Absolutely agree. But Thailand's track record is pretty bad. Easy to bribe your way out of difficult situations. And face is such a big issue here.

Here is a quote from one of the survivors in the Phi Phi deaths, in this thread:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3284508

Refseth fear that the Thai police are more concerned about the reputation of the tourist industry than to put someone responsible for the tragedy.

- I certainly do not feel that the police down there have taken this seriously. I am sure that we were exposed to a kind of gas, and I think Julie died of this gas' .

No one knew what had happened. First, it was speculated that someone put something in our drink. So they told us it had something to do with food poisoning. But we never shared anything with the American couple . It was just nonsense, "says Karina

One of the bodies was even cremated before an autopsy was performed. Quick way to get rid of evidence.

[lovetotravel]

This has to make you worry:

http://photo-journ.com/chiang-mai-tourist-death-hotel-mystery-remains-%E2%80%93-governor-slams-foreign-media-report/

When 60 Minutes visited The Downtown Inn it found the entire fifth floor undergoing extensive cleaning, with furniture and fittings extensively stripped and in-room air conditioners being flushed, allegedly one day ahead of an inspection by Chiang Mai Public Health officials.

According to Dr. Mc Dowell, the fact the room had been scrubbed clean and that “significant levels” of the chemical remained three months later “is a huge concern”.

The deaths of the Chiang Mai seven are remarkably similar to the unexplained deaths on Koh Phi Ph of American tourist Jill St Onge and Norwegian holiday-maker Julie Michelle Bergheim at The Laleena Guesthouse on Koh Phi Ph on May 6, 2009, with Ms. St Onge’s fiance, Ryan Kells, reporting a strong smell of chemicals in the room they occupied.

[TigerWan]

One of the bodies was even cremated before an autopsy was performed. Quick way to get rid of evidence.

Which Body ? Do you even know? Probably you referring to American Ms Jill St Onge in Phi Phi case. This cremation was recommended as reported on her fiance blog - by US embassy as an economical way to deal with the body. Tissue samples were taken first and those lung samples tested in USA were found to be congested and that is consistent with toxin. Search that thread all this info is there.

Vomiting is the # common element and date rape drugs don't make you vomit. Kinky- gross date rape where the victim is puking.

[TigerWan]

This has to make you worry:

http://photo-journ.c...n-media-report/

When 60 Minutes visited The Downtown Inn it found the entire fifth floor undergoing extensive cleaning, with furniture and fittings extensively stripped and in-room air conditioners being flushed, allegedly one day ahead of an inspection by Chiang Mai Public Health officials.

According to Dr. Mc Dowell, the fact the room had been scrubbed clean and that "significant levels" of the chemical remained three months later "is a huge concern".

The deaths of the Chiang Mai seven are remarkably similar to the unexplained deaths on Koh Phi Ph of American tourist Jill St Onge and Norwegian holiday-maker Julie Michelle Bergheim at The Laleena Guesthouse on Koh Phi Ph on May 6, 2009, with Ms. St Onge's fiance, Ryan Kells, reporting a strong smell of chemicals in the room they occupied.

Why ? From samples taken THREE MONTHS later ?? Could have been sprayed in the interim, the week prior ... and I would strongly suggest sensationalistic TV shows are not specialists in collecting and keeping evidence free of contamination.

I N C O N C L U SI V E

And what hotel, what business doesn't scrub before an inspection ?

[lovetotravel]

I N C O N C L U SI V E

And what hotel, what business doesn't scrub before an inspection ?

Are you serious? What hotel knows an inspection is occurring the next day regarding recent deaths? And then does whatever it can to "clean" things up. Somebody tipped them off...easy to figure out.

Also:

An online blog, updated by St Onge's brother, says: ''The Thailand autopsy report is a joke. It was about three pages long and most of it was margin space and emblems.

''I believe here in the 'States an autopsy report starts at around 20 pages, and for something like what happened to Jill would be much longer.''

According to the blog, the autopsy ''did verify that there were NO drugs or alcohol in her system, so those bogus rogue Thailand reports from 'Government officials' can be put to rest.

''I felt like they were trying to brush us off,'' he said of the trip that cost him $250, with Miss St Onge's body in a bodybag in the bottom of the boat. ''They wanted it all to go away.''

[leebeeUK]

In Germany we have a pandemic of ehc coli bacteria. No one knows for the moment why.

Currently in Chiang Mai there is a pandemic of the E. Cohok bacteria similar to other outbreaks around the Kingdom. Everyone knows why this occurs: it is a result of the raksaa naa plague that has long impacted human habitation throughout the Siam region of the Golden Peninsula over the past century.

Sorry if i am being thick but what are you on about?

Good question? Notably from the point of view that a pandemic is some outbreak reaching the world over, ie you can't have a pandemic in Germany and oh yes, we've got one in Chiang Mai, too... a simple dictionary might be in order to grasp a few of the terms before we start professing to be fully fledged bacteriologists, chaps...

[leebeeUK]

http://npic.orst.edu.../chlorptech.pdf

Under Physical/Chemical properties,chlorpyrifos is described as having a mild odour---.

The ministry of Health statement contradicts this by stating"chlorpyrifos generally emits a strong odour which was not noted by the two surviving women"

Are we being misled?

sadly, could well be, or may just be those first investigating at the scene didn't have a clue... (not promising, unfortunately, is it?)

[ratcliffe]

Still waiting for the truth to come out..... if ever. The families concerned and us as concerned residents deserve with no bull-shit to know exactly what happened. So too does the rest of the World, isn't that how you stop these things from ever happening again?

Still waiting ......................