Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[MaxYakov]

<deleted> is going on here??? can't you guys just get a proper visa and earn some money or have enough money in your bank account??? Get some style here and don't complain about some laughable 65k or what ever it is. You have money and that's it, you don't have it, leave, good night.

I bought some 'style' just last night from a street vendor on Soi 4 for all of 28.5 THB. Or was it from Foodland? I forget. It came out of my laughable 65K or what ever it is. So can I have a 'proper' visa now?

[tigermonkey]

I am years from getting a pension, so this doesn't personally concern me YET, but I still find the news quite interesting.

Thailand has never before required IMPORTING any qualifying pensions. Only PROVING the pensions for those using pension income to qualify (generally the embassy letters have been enough, again these are not concerned with IMPORTING the money). That seems the potential HUGE issue of this news. If the requirement is only to show IMPORT of pension income for two months merely as evidence of the pension, that is not really the same thing as requiring that the ENTIRE claimed pension amount all be imported annually. Of course Thai immigration can do what they want, but if they DO mean they want to the entire pension IMPORTED annually, some more clarity would be appreciated. If they don't mean that, as I guess they don't, personally I don't see the logic in needing any proof on IMPORT of even two months. There are so many other ways to show evidence of a pension, such as an official letter from the government body issuing the pension, printed out online statements from our non-Thai banks of the pension amounts flowing into those accounts, etc. etc. ad nauseum. While I get that they don't want to make this too complicated for their officers (perhaps that is the logic for them) the requirement of required pension IMPORTATION has now been mixed with the issue of merely PROVING pensions. In that sense, I think this is definitely not good news ...

Nowhere does the OP mention any requirement to IMPORT the pension income into Thailand. This is merely a misleading sub-headline added to the post.

[Jingthing]

This is the visa forum, not the farang pub. It's for discussing technicalities of visa regulations, not speculation about the morality of how broke assed some retirees are. In all frankness, the OP is kind of ambiguous, and I suspect that this announcement will create a lot of confusion and false myths about the rules for some time to come. You either meet the rules (there are still three general options, bank account only, income based, or combo) or you don't. The messy part sometimes comes from interpreting the rules and dealing with the varied enforcement policies of different offices, and now it seems your NATIONALITY is coming into play as well with embassy letters. In any case, more requirements, more burden on applicants, and that is never good news for applicants, no matter how "moral" or skint they actually are.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jimi007]

Boy I am in a pickle... I just came home to the U.S. for my mom's birthday party. Am planning to stay for 3 months and do some repairs on my home here and cars and such. My retirement visa expires on the 14/th of Sept. and I am due back on Aug. 25th. I do not even have a bank account in Thailand. Personally, I think banking in Thailand is a rip off. So if I have to prove 65,000 baht in a bank for 2 months I am out of luck? Proving an income of 65,000 baht a month is easy. One pension is $1448 dollars and one is $1000 dollars in dividends. I am wondering if they will take a bank statement from the U.S. showing a total deposit of $2448 per month. If so i will bring a bank statement with me showing the deposits. If not I guess there will be a woman in Thailand verrrry unhappy. When her money dries up and I am kicked out of the country. I for one will never transfer 800,000 baht into a Thai bank.

Just get a new OA visa in the US. And no Thai Immigration won't take a US bank statement for a visa extension.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Jimi007

[Rdrokit]

The last sentence of the OP states, or a combination of monthly income and bank balance......

I thought this option was discontinued and it was either 65,000/month OR 800,000 baht in the bank??????

[OzMick]

Seems to me you could get around the "import" bit by first establishing an THB800K bank a/c, drawing down on it as req'd up to 65K/month (this is allowed as I understand it), then topping it up to 800K at the end of the year.

You are talking about a completely different method and not relevant to people using pensions to qualify. If you can show 800K in your Thai bank account the day of your extension application and the money has been over that for three months (two months the first time) you are using the bank account method. It requires showing NO income at all, no embassy letter, just show the money. The draw down before the seasoning period is whatever amount you want, and it would be silly to create a fictional flow to fake a pension that you don't even need to show in the first place! If I've misunderstood your idea, sorry.

the different methodology was to subvert the importing of 65K, much more than most of us require for a decent lifestyle here.

[MrWizard]

Notable exception are citizens of US, Canada and Australia where no evidence of income is required for issue of embassy income letter, just sworn declaration of income required.

Hmmm why is this still in the rules ? I think it is time to treat every farang the same..

[Arkady]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

It never takes long for some one to bring up the irrelevant comparison with Thai incomes. Why on earth would the Thai government want to play host to impoverished farangs with incomes of only 8,000 baht a month who would obviously bring in minimal foreign exchange, be unable to pay for medical care when they get sick or for their air ticket home when it's time for them to be repatriated? Farang countries don't issue retirement visas at all and the only way for a retired person to get a long term visa is usually to bring in a sh*t load of money for investment, e.g. this announcement from the British government on 28th March:

"UK Government introduces visa rules to fast-track settlement for high-value investors and entrepreneurs. Foreign entrepreneurs and investors have been given an extra boost today with the announcement that the UK Government has introduced new visa rules that encourage the brightest and the best to locate to the UK. The rules fast-track settlement for high-value investors and entrepreneurs. Under the new rules, those who come to the UK and invest large sums of money will be given the right to settle permanently in the UK faster. Those who invest £5 million will be allowed to settle here after three years and those that invest £10 million or more will be allowed to settle after two. This compares with the minimum five year requirement that is currently in place...."

If I'm not mistaken,£5-10 million is a bit more than the average Brit has in the bank.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Arkady

[kiwijor]

I hope someone will clarify this. I do not bring money from my pension in each month, I bring it in a few times a year in $10000 lots. Gets expensive if I have to do it each month.

Hi, I suggest you use XE.com to transfer to your Thai Bank, the service is very good.

Kiwijor.

[tigermonkey]

Notable exception are citizens of US, Canada and Australia where no evidence of income is required for issue of embassy income letter, just sworn declaration of income required.

Hmmm why is this still in the rules ? I think it is time to treat every farang the same..

You cant believe everything that you read in ThaiVisa -- the OP is wrong, or at least partly wrong in this case. Read my post #43 concerning Canada.

[CaptainFantastic]

3) The whole idea with the 65k limit is to ensure that you can support yourself and not be a burden to Thailand.

So, how do I go about "becoming a burden to Thailand", then?

Can I pop up with my UB40 and sign on for the dole, do ya fink?

Can I avail myself of Thailand's second-to-none National Health Service thereby obtaining free GP and hospital treatment, mayhap?

When do they give me my songthaew pass?

Or my subsidised TV licence, dental and optical services?

Not forgetting the winter fuel allowance (maybe that should be the summer aircon allowance).

If I'm earning less than £400 and odd a week (this is AFTER I've retired, yes?), can I apply for the "Somtam on wheels" service?:lol:

Edited June 6, 2011 by CaptainFantastic

[SantiSuk]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

Some loss of perspective here. I'll bet your home country would not let a Thai retire to your home country on 650,000 baht a month. Be grateful that Thailand needs the money (but not more paupers).

[mizztraveller]

Is the 800,000 baht in bank / 65,000 baht per month pension, per person or per couple?

[Trouble]

Why is it that a simple informational post becomes a forum for panic and suppositions going way beyond what the post is trying to tell us. It simply states that the immigration office might require proof which substantiates the embassy letter. I doubt that Thai immigration gives a sh*t whether it is pension income, interest income, investment income, etc. You either have the funds/income to qualify or you don't. If you don't the post is warning you that you MAY have a problem as there seems to be a toughening of the attitude of the Immigration Office. There has probably been some incidents which brought to light that some individuals do NOT have the required income as shown on the embassy letter. What's the big deal here? 65,000/month or 800,000 in the bank is the requirement. Nothing was said in the post about the requirement to bring into Thailand all 65,000 per month just as there is no requirement that you cannot sent money back out of the country from the 800,000 Thai bank account. The Thai government is only trying to set some standards to prohibit farangs coming to Thailand and trying to live on the 8,000 baht per month someone suggested was general income for the Thai populace. Seems like the Thai government is actually quite reasonable with regard to income requirements.

[tigermonkey]

<deleted> is going on here??? can't you guys just get a proper visa and earn some money or have enough money in your bank account??? Get some style here and don't complain about some laughable 65k or what ever it is. You have money and that's it, you don't have it, leave, good night.

Well, said Beach-----I do not consider 800,000bt to be an extreme amount for being accepted here as a retiree. If you cannot afford to have that amount permanently in your a/c then you should not consider comeing here. I consider it to be a small price to pay for exchangeing a stressful life in another country for a extremely happy time int the land of smiles. Sorry guys but nothing in this life is free,but life here can be wonderful if you obey the rules.I reort every 90 days.Get a warm welcome and a smile,and once a yr give them a up to date a/c figure over the 800,00 and with another smile i walk mout. EASY

Sorry to be at odds with you both, but I do not get the thrill of a lifetime out of wasting money. Everyone has choices to make. I choose not to make an early withdrawal of $50,000 out of my Registered Income Fund, so that I will have the great pleasure of giving $20,000 tax to my home government, and then become ecstatic with putting the other $30,000 into a Thai bank at 0% interest and with no banking insurance.

I choose monthly ! You can call me cheap !

[ryladie99]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

Thanks for posting and Farangs do not need 65,000 baht to live in Thailand. Too much money and in my opinion someone needs to explain the reason for doing this. I feel for many Farangs and hope you all can get the issue settle. Good luck.

[Penkoprod]

Notable exception are citizens of US, Canada and Australia where no evidence of income is required for issue of embassy income letter, just sworn declaration of income required.

Hmmm why is this still in the rules ? I think it is time to treat every farang the same..

In this instance Thai Immigration ARE treating every farang the same.

Its just the different embassies of different countries using their own (differing) rules and regs when they issue the evidence of income.

All Thai Immigration want to see is a letter from the embassy (until, perhaps now)

Penkoprod

Edited June 6, 2011 by Penkoprod

[david555]

I do not see a problem... they just wish to have more proof if the pension is real and not a just a "sworn declaration lie , never u.s .citizens fear the..IR.S could tax them on their (faked ) declaration..... remember Al Capone 's case

Edited June 6, 2011 by david555

[KhunVee]

Unless your lieing to your embassy its a non issue ??

All thats happening here is they want to see that what you claim is reality.. If no ones telling porkies then I see no issue.

Apparently, once again, people from Immigrations have been reading ThaiVisa message boards to find out which loopholes are being exploited. Many times when someone has posed a question on this board about proof of income or meeting the minimums, someone has responded that if you're an American (or someone else whose embassy uses sworn statements) that you can just say anything you want.

Same was true back when people were shifting bank balances around and Immigrations then decided to require money to be in your account for several months. The geniuses posting on TV would brag about how clever they were and that loophole was closed.

Anyway, as someone else said, the financial requirements remain the same, but because of a few dishonest people we will all have to provide more documentation that we meet those requirements.

I don't see the relevance of the comparison of a supposed average Thai salary of Baht 8000 to the Baht 65,000 requirement for retired farang. It may hurt your feelings to face the fact that Thailand is not providing a refugee camp for impoverished farang. We're welcomed here if we are going to spend money to boost the economy. Very sensible. Not sure what other countries are laying out a big welcome for foreign welfare cases.

Er - That would be Britain....

And BELGIUM !!!! The country is going completely bankrupt thanks to our open borders and pampering of foreign welfare cases. I wish Belgium imposed the same Visa rules as Thailand.

[david555]

Unless your lieing to your embassy its a non issue ??

All thats happening here is they want to see that what you claim is reality.. If no ones telling porkies then I see no issue.

Apparently, once again, people from Immigrations have been reading ThaiVisa message boards to find out which loopholes are being exploited. Many times when someone has posed a question on this board about proof of income or meeting the minimums, someone has responded that if you're an American (or someone else whose embassy uses sworn statements) that you can just say anything you want.

Same was true back when people were shifting bank balances around and Immigrations then decided to require money to be in your account for several months. The geniuses posting on TV would brag about how clever they were and that loophole was closed.

Anyway, as someone else said, the financial requirements remain the same, but because of a few dishonest people we will all have to provide more documentation that we meet those requirements.

I don't see the relevance of the comparison of a supposed average Thai salary of Baht 8000 to the Baht 65,000 requirement for retired farang. It may hurt your feelings to face the fact that Thailand is not providing a refugee camp for impoverished farang. We're welcomed here if we are going to spend money to boost the economy. Very sensible. Not sure what other countries are laying out a big welcome for foreign welfare cases.

Er - That would be Britain....

And BELGIUM !!!! The country is going completely bankrupt thanks to our open borders and pampering of foreign welfare cases. I wish Belgium imposed the same Visa rules as Thailand.

I agree , i just went this afternoon to Antwerp district house to notify them i am out Belgium from tomorrow for 1 year .... and they where speaking English to me , so you see the country is overturned already

[PingManDan]

the 800.000 baht is as old as i can remember, nothing new, right?

No same ol same ol 800,000 in bank 3 months prior to obtaining one year extention, just keep on crusing on, guy your fine.

[traveller60]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

It's easy to understand. They know that so many farlangs are losing all there money by spending it in bars and cars and motorbikes for the wife and the whole family.

They think for their own people............:jap:

They all see the Farang as a cash cow and milk it to the max...... so whats new..?? I fail to see why there is so much concern .... theres always the airport if you cant stand it.... I dont see anyone forcing anyone to stay

[pepi2005]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

that's because farangs have higher living expenses as was explained on numerous occasions.

To be exact, farangs have to be able to pay tips, double and triple charging, for the construction of villas for their wives' parents in Issaan etc.

p.

[Durieu]

Maybe they will do away with the expensive and meaningless letter for those that use the monthly method and just go for the actual proof.

I'm assuming that bank statements indicating receipt of pension are now required, certainly more meaningful than a letter from the embassy.

Maybe Thai Immigration will update their website to show the "new rule".

Wouldn't it be nice to use the same rules in Europe, don't think we gonna have more illegal aliens coming over to benefit from our poor working class

Ho yes! I'm completely agreeing with you! Here in France we receive hundreds of thousand persons every year! Most of them come to be looked free of charge or to collect the social security for them and all their family! But when the government tries to say that it is necessary to limit this type of immigration, there are demonstrations in streets and all the journalists who are scandalized!

In the same time, I have enough money to live in Thailand, including in letting 800 000 bahts permanently in an account, and I can transfer more than 65 000 bahts a month. But, as I have not any kind of pension or salary or other regular revenue (I’m a writer), I cannot stay more than 3 months in Thailand. This is just stupid.

Finely, Thai government is not only cupid, they are also nationalist.

If my lover was not Thai and obliged to live in Thailand, I never have the stupid idea to stay in this crazy country.

[cbc]

Always have to show my bank statement to the counselor when renewing my visa before getting a letter.I like to know where immigration got their info from that canadian's can only take an oath about their income and receive the letter.Maybe in bangkok but not in chiang mai.But,i know the american counsulate just takes the oath.But not canadian.

[fred110]

Breaking News . . . Thai Immigration cracking down on people trying to cheat the system.

What awful people they are. Let's hear from the apologists who feel that farang retirees should be allowed to claim whatever monthly pension they like with no checks at all by Immigration.

OK, here goes. I am not retired, I live off my quite large savings. I get the fake embassy letter. SO what? I support myself. Some of my friends really are retired but don't get nearly 65,000/month. They might have to leave. I guess to Cambodia. I'll miss them, so will the landlords and vendors and a few ladies.

[CaptainFantastic]

<deleted> is going on here??? can't you guys just get a proper visa and earn some money or have enough money in your bank account??? Get some style here and don't complain about some laughable 65k or what ever it is. You have money and that's it, you don't have it, leave, good night.

Well, said Beach-----I do not consider 800,000bt to be an extreme amount for being accepted here as a retiree. If you cannot afford to have that amount permanently in your a/c then you should not consider comeing here. I consider it to be a small price to pay for exchangeing a stressful life in another country for a extremely happy time int the land of smiles. Sorry guys but nothing in this life is free,but life here can be wonderful if you obey the rules.I reort every 90 days.Get a warm welcome and a smile,and once a yr give them a up to date a/c figure over the 800,00 and with another smile i walk mout. EASY

Sorry to be at odds with you both, but I do not get the thrill of a lifetime out of wasting money. Everyone has choices to make. I choose not to make an early withdrawal of $50,000 out of my Registered Income Fund, so that I will have the great pleasure of giving $20,000 tax to my home government, and then become ecstatic with putting the other $30,000 into a Thai bank at 0% interest and with no banking insurance.

I choose monthly ! You can call me cheap !

Well said, TigerMonkey.

Well said.

[retiredusn]

Will the embassey letter still be needed or just a bank statment??via the internet??

[rizla]

If the Immigration office now wants the income proof to come from one's bank statement, and not the Embassy, that would be no problem, it would in fact be a bit of a bonus by saving the expensive Embassy letter fees, bank statements are free.

Now that would be something i would really like to see, no more p....ing about down to jomtien or bangkok for that overpriced consulate pap.......

[rayw]

Interesting responses to this revelation. Any US citizen (or AU/GB?) considering providing an income affidavit to Immigration without being able to prove it on demand was taking a risk. In my case, the USD has fallen enough in the last two years to put my pension (such as it is) below the 65K limit. I've had 800K in the bank here at one point, but have heard one scare story about money just disappearing from accounts. I got a shoulder-shrug from a Bangkok Bank rep. when I asked about account deposit insurance. I could have easily met the 800K deposit requirement, but what kind of ROI would it have earned? So, because of the retirement visa requirements, I've decided to push double-entry tourist visas to the limit.

Here are a few questions I hope can be answered by someone on the forum:

1) There was mention of a 'hybrid' bank account balance and monthly income arrangement. I had hypothesized that such a compromise provision might exist but had not asked Immigration on my visit researching the retirement visa. Does anyone have the details of this ... or is it back to Immigration with this one?

2) There was mention of a 'qualifying period' for the 800K on deposit. Does anyone know what the period is? I had a German citizen on the 800K deposit plan note that Immigration had somehow detected an emergency withdrawal that put the balance just below the 800K amount and he heard from them.

3) Does anyone believe that if the Thai average income is 8000/month, that has any bearing on what monthly amount they've 'decided' to extract from farangs? I would hypothesize that it's an inverse relationship ... if you know what I mean.

4) Does anyone know what the weather is like in Cebu, Philippines these days?

Thanks In Advance,

Max

1) The sum 65.000 comes from 800.000 divided by 12, but to require 66.666 would be silly, hence the sum of 65.000 If you have proof of 40.000 per month you will need 320.000 in the bank. The trick is to make up a total yearly income of 800.000

2) The 800k must be in a Thai bank 3 months before you ask for extension of your retirement visa. If you apply for a retirement visa, meaning the first time, 2 months is required.

3) The whole idea with the 65k limit is to ensure that you can support yourself and not be a burden to Thailand. I doubt what somebody stated that the 65k does NOT need to be brought into Thailand. This does not make sense

4) Google it!!

Okay just an important bit of additional information is that if you use the hybrid method as the example quoted above then the 320,000 Baht required to make up the 40K per month (480K per annum) to the needed 800K does NOT have to be in your bank for 3 months prior to the visa extension it can be placed in there on the day your extension is due and importantly you do need a letter from your Thai bank, dated the same day of your visa extension or certainly no more than the day before, confirming the balance and I believe that the funds have come from abroad. For your first retirement visa then you have to have the hybrid balance needed in your bank for either two or three months not sure which (so you should clarify this if you are getting your initial retirement visa).

As I read it NOTHING has changed for English and other European retirees living here who already have to show absolute proof of income to their embassy to get the required embassy income confirmation letter needed. What this new statement is changing, and I do not blame the Thai immigration at all, is the rather naive system used by some embassies (US and AUS I believe are two) who do not ask to see income proof but just accept the applicants oath that their income is as they state. This is obviously unacceptable and quite crazy really as you can claim any income you want and get away with it and many will indeed do just that as it is common human nature to try and get around regulations. I think the Thai immigration are perfectly fair and, compared to certainly the UK immigration, are a lot kinder and easier in issuing VISAs and this is good for Thailand too as retirees (and indeed many others) living here bring in good solid regular income.

Oh and definitely if you have a hybrid or a total income fulfilled visa requirement, you DO NOT have to show you have brought any funds into Thailand. Personally I do not need 65K a month to live here and many retirees are similar in their monthly needs, though I do have more than that in pension income in the UK and that is fine for my proof of annual/monthly income. I also transfer very little over to my Thai bank account as I use my UK Visa credit card(s) to buy most of my basic shopping, petrol, mobile phone bills etc etc as quite honestly for the amount I use per month it is cheaper and easier than transferring money here or drawing cash on the cards from ATMs. Sure to make this free of charge (though the exchange rate is not quite so good as you get with a transfer) you do have to clear you credit card balance on time each month to avoid high interest charges but that is standard practice of course even using such cards in your home country. This system works very well for me and is easy and hassle free. I do carefully check my Credit card statements each month and so far in 8 years here I have never had a fraudulent transaction go through (and anyway they will reimburse any such frauds unless you have been proved negligent say with your PIN) but I am careful of course where and how I use my cards.

So the bottom line and perfectly reasonable and fair is that if you meet the 800K Baht requirement either in cash in the bank for at least 2 or 3 months, or proven and genuine equivalent of 800K Baht annual income, or a combination of both then there should be no problem at all. Each year I am normally in an out of the immigration office for my annual visa extension within 30 minutes maximum (unless a big queue but I try to time my visits to avoid busy periods). I have to say though that I DO have all my required documents and photocopies available, make sure I look clean and tidy and not scruffy and looking like a vagrant, and always be polite and respectful. I then find them both polite and helpful and usually quite friendly too and not after any "tea moeny" from me either. I then pick up my visa stamped passport either later the same day or usually the next day. Easy if you meet the not unreasonable requirements and have all the needed completed documents and photocopies ready prepared, makes it easy for them (we all like an easier job) and thus easy for you.