Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[JimGant]

I alternate between my 2 Schwab ATM's and a credit union atm

Bob, if I may ask, what CU card? And how does it compare to your Schwab cards (we know it doesn't beat them -- but on par?)

[ThaiBob]

I alternate between my 2 Schwab ATM's and a credit union atm

Bob, if I may ask, what CU card? And how does it compare to your Schwab cards (we know it doesn't beat them -- but on par?)

It's the credit union associated with my former employer and not available to the public. They charge 1% for foreign transactions and another charge for out of network atm. I only use for emergencies. After Schwab I would use ACH transfers to BB NYC.

[ThaiBob]

From another thread, any thoughts on AMEX card as a backup?

https://www.bluebird.com/

[Pib]

From another thread, any thoughts on AMEX card as a backup?

https://www.bluebird.com/

If I already didn't have a couple of no foreign transaction fee debit cards that also reimburse ATM fees and some no foreign transaction fee credit cards, I would have got a Bluebird card already due to its very low fee schedule (only one possible fee when using the card in a non MoneyPass ATM in or outside the U.S.)....and I'm still thinking about getting one.

Appears the AmEx card exchange rate is basically equally to or possibly a hair better than Visa's exchange rate (but that was based on only a couple days of comparison from some googling and data provided by ThaiVisa member jrgruen), no foreign transaction fee, only a Bt50 (fifty) foreign card ATM fee at Bangkok Bank ATMs (I think Bangkok Bank may be the only Thai ATMs accepting AmEx but there are plenty of Bangkok Bank ATMs), up to $750 (about Bt24,500) in withdrawals per day and only a $2.50 fee charged by Bluebird if not using one of their network ATM regardless of it being a foreign ATM or not...no MoneyPass ATMs outside the U.S. so you would be paying that $2.50 fee per withdrawal in Thailand.

So, a withdrawal from a Bangkok Bank ATM would get you an AmEx exchange rate which is basically equal to the Visa/Mastercard/Thai bank TT Buying Rate with $4 total in fees (not reimbursed). That is, Bt50/$1.50 + $2.50 totaling $4...that equates to 0.53% in fees on a $750 withdrawal...a $750 ACH transfer via the Bangkok Bank New York routing number method would work out to around $11 in fees or 1.47% in fees.

And for any U.S. folks out there possibly using the Direct Express Mastercard card to get their govt pension money while overseas, they should think seriously about getting a Bluebird card because you can have your pension direct deposited to your Bluebird account just like the DirectExpress card, however, the DirectExpress card charges a foreign withdrawal fee of $3 plus 3% (ouch!). So, lets say a person goes to a Thai bank ATM with his DirectExpress Mastercard to get their $1,500 monthly pension...since no Thai bank gives up to $1.500 (approx Bt49,500) per ATM transaction let's say they do two ATM withdrawals from a Bangkok Bank ATM.....he would pay $51 in DirectExpress fees plus another Bt360 (2 times Bt180 foreign Mastercard card withdrawal fee which is almost $11) or $61 in total fees--ouch!! Now if they had used their Bluebird card they would have only incurred $8 in total fees.

Yeap, the AmEx Bluebird card and associated fees looking pretty durn good...guess that's why it gets top ratings in comparison to other prepaid type cards since the great majority of prepaid type cards are fee-laden in one way or another (really numerous ways)....but not the Bluebird card.

Blluebird Fee Schedule

[ThaiBob]

Pib, thanks for your comments. One additional benefit I see in comparing an ACH transfer to BB vs Bluebird is the time delay before being able to access money here in Thailand. Once the money is in the Bluebird account it is accessible which is not the case going the BB NYC route.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ThaiBob

[grin]

Just a word of warning to any CitiGold members that were members based on debt like mortgages. These debts will no longer be considered toward CitiGold membership after January 1, 2015. So if your membership was based on debt you will lose it.

That means that the Thank You Premier and Prestige credit cards which have no foreign transaction fees will no longer be free. The Premier card is only $125 a year but the Prestige is a whopping $450 a year. The Prestige card has a lot of premium services that might make it worth it to some people. For me the Premier card is worth the fee due to being able to get daily transaction updates through Quicken direct connect. I now tend to use my Capital One cards and my PenFed cards for backup or moving cash around due to only being able to download OFX files and import them into Quicken which I prefer to only do once a month.

Anyone else use Quicken from Thailand? Any tips on banks or cards that support direct connect?

Grin

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For anyone looking to shop for and find the best/right deal for a Thai credit card (for you or a Thai significant other), there's an interesting new and independent comparison website launched by a legitimate, outside Thailand financial services firm -- UK based MoneyGuru.

Oddly enough, I happened to find their new Thailand website via a random Google search on Thursday, and my research there helped my wife find a quite good deal on a Thai bank credit credit card that she had been seeking on her own without any good/useful information. And then later in the day, I found that ThaiVisa and its ThaiTech site both ran a post on the new MoneyGuru Thailand site as well.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/783201-moneyguru-launches-thailands-first-financial-comparison-website/

http://www.moneyguru.co.th/en/credit-card

Using their site, I was able to relatively quickly scroll thru the essential details of more than 100 different credit card offers from many (though I'm not sure all) of the Thai banks and credit card issuers. The site includes info on annual interest rates, number of days to repay without incurring interest charges, initial and annual card fees, rewards programs, general eligibility, etc.

Believer it or not, there are at least a FEW Thai credit cards on offer, including one from TMB, that don't charge any initial and annual fees just for holding the card -- without having to do sizable purchases to avoid those fees. And even, there was at least one card issuer that was offering an annual interest rate of less than 20% -- which was Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (Thailand) at 18.25% APR.

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell at present, the website doesn't have any feature enabled that would allow you to SORT their results by the info categories, such as sorting by cards with no or the lowest fees, or sorting by interest rate (if this wasn't Thailand where seemingly 99% of the bank issued credit cards seem to have the standard government promulgated 20% APR rate.

Though, the website does allow you to filter their results by issuing bank, brand of card, or rewards type (travel, shopping, gas, air miles, etc) of card, however. When I load the all credit cards info tab, the default listing seems oddly to list the card offerings in reverse alphabetical order by bank name, starting with UOB's cards and then Thanachart's and so on. I didn't see/find any way to alter that ordering.

BTW, I confirmed in person with TMB that the details of their credit card as described on the MoneyGuru listing are in fact correct. I looked at the ICBC website re their credit card offering, and couldn't initially find any information about the interest rates on their cards, but didn't have a chance to call them as yet to confirm. Nonetheless, the info provided on the website seems to be pretty good.

And, I should have mentioned, MoneyGuru also has dual language English and Thai versions of their Thailand website. All in all, I'd say it's a good resource for an informed financial consumer, and hopefully they'll expand in the future to additional product categories such as deposit accounts or other financial services. MoneyGuru Thailand currently covers just credit card, personal loans and car insurance.

BTW -- Standard disclaimer: I'm not a big fan of Thai bank credit cards, owing to their high 20% APR interest rates and the scant legal consumer protections they have. But if someone really wants/needs one, it only makes sense to look for the best terms/deal.

Edited December 11, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[fletchsmile]

Cheers for that link on MoneyGuru, John. I had a quick look at their website on Thai credit cards out of curiosity, as I'm familiar with Money Guru from UK. A few things I noticed from a quick cursory look:

On the whole, seems to cover the basics reasonably accurately, and is a reasonable starting point. Worth noting:

- Wasn't complete on all the promotions and features when you click on the more info/ details, for cash backs etc for the cards I hold, and there were quite a few omissions. I guess that's to be expected though as these change regularly, and the banks don't always update their websites.

- The data only takes into consideration mass market banking. It doesn't take into consideration people who are priority banking for example. On Stan Chart's cards, I pay no fees and never have on their credit cards, plus there are also no minimum spends to remain fee free either.

- Seems accurate on TMB as well, as they have a range of no fee cards for the masses.

My views on credit cards:

-1) The APR should be irrelevant. Pay by direct debit and pay in full. If you're paying interest on a credit card in Thailand or pretty much anywhere else in the world, you're likely not managing your money as efficiently as you should

- 2) I've never paid a fee for a credit card anywhere and probably never will. There are always fee free cards somewhere with similar perks. The moment someone starts charging a fee they can have their card back. I had one card with Bank of Asia here late 90's and it was about to be charged a fee after the first X number of years free. A Thai friend said that no-one in their right mind pays fees on credit cards in Thailand, just tell them if you have to pay a fee you don't want it, and they waive the charge

Cheers

Fletch

Edited December 12, 2014 by fletchsmile

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

A Thai friend said that no-one in their right mind pays fees on credit cards in Thailand, just tell them if you have to pay a fee you don't want it, and they waive the charge

Well, I certainly concur, no one in their right mind SHOULD be paying issuance and annual fees just to hold Thai bank credit cards.

But, considering that the great majority of Thai cards seem to have those fees at least on the surface, I'd be very curious to hear from other members here just what success or lack of that they've had in avoiding those fees on an ongoing basis by simply asking their bank to waive them (and without meeting the banks' own various criteria for automatically waiving those fees).

Banks certainly have a tendency to waive various fees for their better or best customers. But whether they'll afford the same treatment for their routine or nothing special customers (Thai or farang), that's a very interesting question.

Edited December 12, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[zeekgarcia]

Speaking of credit cards that have no foreign currency fee and no cash advance fee for bank counter withdrawals....

Pentagon Federal Credit Union -- one of the largest credit unions in the U.S. that also has its membership open to the general public -- has just launched a new credit card with both of those features AND a 1.5% cash back feature on all purchases.

It's called the PenFed Defender Visa Signature card, but there is one catch. Unlike PFCU membership and PFCU's other credit cards, this new credit card is ONLY available to active military members (including the National Guard and the Reserves) or those honorably discharged from the military, according to PFCU's web site. Apart from that limitation, it looks like quite a good offering, with a good 8.9% APR rate as well.

The details are here on the PFCU website:

https://penfed.org/visadefender/

And here's the terms document with all the additional details:

PFCU Defender-Visa Terms.pdf

TallGuy,

Well, my Defender card is in the mail. This week I called PFCU regarding a question I had about my other PFCU credit card (just an issue regarding something being reflected on my PFCU ibanking), got that question quickly answered, and then the PFCU rep asked if I was interesting in switching my current card to the Defender card or just get the Defender card also.

I said I wanted to keep my other card since it gave 5% cash back on pay-at-the-pump fuel purchases which I will also hopefully get to start using regularly in Thailand some day (i.e., self service and slide your card into the pump to pay). The rep then starting pointing the good stuff about the Defender card like 1.5% cash back on any purchase, no foreign transaction fee, no cash advance fee, etc....basically all the "no fees" like my other PFCU has. So, I thought to myself I already have a couple of CapOne credit cards that I use all the time and they pay 1.5% cash back, but having another 1.5% cash back card from another company would serve as a backup in case CapOne every changes some of their policies/fees...plus, I may decide to just start using the PFCU Defender card regularly.

Additonally, I thought since I've been using my current PFCU credit card to do counter withdrawals up to $2,000 per day with absolutely no fees if I had a another PFCU credit card I could just flip both of them out during a counter withdrawal, get $4,000 (approx Bt130K) fee-free (Thai bank end and PFCU end), and cut my counter withdrawal trips to the bank in half...only do it every 2 or 3 months or so. And I know this will impress 55Jay. Cash advance counter withdrawal limit per day is $2,000 or if via ATM $1,000 per day when using a PFCU credit card.

Anyway, I applied over the phone for the Defender while talking to the rep, the rep only asked me about my current income level, confirmed my current address (I use my APO mailing address here in Thailand), took a little info on my wife since I wanted a supplemental card for her also, the rep ran the online credit check which took about 15 seconds and resulted in approval of the Defender card.....then the rep said there is one more step to finalize the process which is asking me 3 questions to confirm my identity. These three questions were all from public data records like which of the following addresses have you lived at before, etc....challenge questions that some banks like St Farm Bank use occasionally when logging onto their ibanking system. Passed the questions....the card info is now reflecting on my PFCU ibanking, cards in the mail. Too easy.

PFCU has both a Visa and American Express Defender credit card....I took the Visa card. A few hours later I thought to myself maybe I should have gotten the AmEx version since it had all the same benefits and fee structure as that would have allowed me to do a cash advance up to $1,000 per day at a Bangkok Bank ATM and get charged only a local ATM fee of Bt50 (fifty) vs the typical Bt150-180 foreign card fee for Visa/Matercard. But i rationalized that away by telling myself I still have a couple of no foreign transaction fee debit cards that reimburse those fees...plus, AmEx is not as widely accepted in Thailand as Visa/Mastercard. And I no longer have a concern about the American Express exchange rate since a recent thread on the American Express Bluebird card flushed that out for me...appears the AmEx "card" exchange rate is basically equal to or possibly a little better than Visa's rate...and Visa's rate is usually a hair better than Matercard's. Note: AmEx card exchange rate not to be confused with their exchange rate for their other currency products/services which is several percent lower.

Anyway, I got the Defender card although I was not planning to when making my call to PFCU.

Can you explain how with your credit card you do the counter withdraw with no cash advance fee on your credit card?

[Pib]

Can you explain how with your credit card you do the counter withdraw with no cash advance fee on your credit card?

Easy. As mentioned PenFed credit cards are one of the few line of credit cards that do not charge a cash advance fee nor foreign transaction fee. The great majority of credit cards do charge a cash advance fee even though they may not charge a foreign transaction fee...but PenFed credit cards do not charge a cash advance fee. So, I go do a counter withdrawal cash advance which incurs no cash advance or foreign transaction fee from PenFed nor any fee from the Thai bank...like the foreign card Bt180 fee incurred if using a Thai bank ATM.

Now although there is no cash advance fee by PenFed interest does begin to accumulate from day one of the cash advance. After doing the cash advance I come back home, log onto my PenFed account and make payment in full based on the Visa exchange rate for that day. By payment in full I accomplish an ACH payment/transfer from one of my primary banks, usually USAA, since I don't keep that much money in PenFed accounts. By initiating the payment it counts as actual payment that day although it will be several days before the funds payment/transfer actually arrive from the other bank. Now I could have actually made an advance payment before going to do the cash withdrawal but don't want to have a big credit on my credit card account in case when I go to the bank to do the cash advance I can't for some reason like the bank is closed, the card don't work, I have an accident, just whatever reason that would prevent the cash advance from occurring.

Since a credit card transaction (even a cash advance) takes several days to post/finalize, I check my PenFed account a few days later to see what exchange rate I got based on the exchange rate of the posting date which is going to be a little different than the exchange rate on the day of the cash advance, and if the payment I made a few days earlier is a few dollars short I pay those few dollars at that time. Even in those cases where I needed to make a few dollars extra payment a few days later I still did not incur any interest charge for that statement month. I've done around 10 cash advances using my PenFed credit card since early this year....have not incurred any fees or any interest.

Rec'd the Defender credit card this week....now have two PenFed credit cards to use.

[Pib]

Well, I used my "chip-enabled" PenFed Defender Visa credit card at Tesco Lotus today and I thought I was going to lose my magnetic strip virginity in that the chip on the card would be used to accomplish the transaction, but I don't think it was.

I handed the checkout clerk my PenFed Defender Visa card, she noticed it had chip and she then inserted the chip end of the card into the Point of Sale (POS) machine. At that point I was apprehensive as to what would happen. Would it work? Would I be asked to enter a PIN which I never seen nobody do here in Thailand do at store checkout even for Thai credit cards which are all almost chip-enabled? Just what would happen? Now with my other U.S. credit/debit cards--none of which have chips--the clerk "swipes" the card through the POS machine and a few seconds later the signature for receipt comes out which I then sign. Transaction done.

OK, the clerk inserts the chip-enabled Defender card, after a few seconds no receipt for signature pops out, the clerks looks down at the POS machine, presses a few buttons, removes the card and then swipes it, and a few seconds later the receipt for signature pops out which I then sign. Tranaction done.

So I'm now thinking was the "chip" even used in the transactions but instead the magnetic strip was used? Or maybe the chip "and" magnetic strip was used. I didn't really know but after coming home and doing some googling on the "chip-enabled card" subject I got smarter and feel the chip was "not" used for the transaction and the magnetic strip was still used.

My googling research showed a chip-enabled card comes in different flavors so to speak: Chip & Signature and Chip & PIN where the only difference is the method of verification being done (PIN or Signature). That is, does the verification require a PIN or does the verification require a Signature. And here is the kicker, there can actually be no chip verification as the POS machine can switch to magnetic strip mode of operation if the encoded card info allows where the card is just swiped instead---and I think this what happened at Tesco Lotus in that the magnetic strip was still used to processed the transaction for whatever reason.

My googling revealed that "in the U.S." the Chip & Signature method is primarily being adopted by U.S. banks for their chip-enabled cards as the cardholder verification method; however, the cards can also be encoded to use Chip & PIN (popular in Europe), and actually the cards can be encoded with several/multiple verification methods to include No Verification where the chip is not used and the magnetic strip is used instead. Information on the card allows the POS machines to shift to various verification modes depending on numerous factors like capabilities of the merchant's POS machine, type of transaction, country of transaction, etc....quite a few factors could come into play depending on how the card-issuing bank has coded the card (different acceptable verification methods) and the capabilities of the merchants POS machines and also ATMs.

Here's a couple of webpages which I think give a good overview of chip-enabled cards which can also be referred to as EMV cards, Chip & PIN, Chip & Signature....different names for the same thing. So, today in using my first ever chip-enabled card I'm pretty sure I did "not" lose my magnetic strip virginity.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

Link 5 (shows what verification methods various banks such as PenFed use with some of their chipped cards)

[watcharacters]

USA banks charge on both ends. The bank atm fee is anywhere between 3-6 USD, although some smaller convenience store atms may still do $1.50 or $2 withdrawal fees. Then your issuing bank will charge fee for not using their network of atms. of course the cool banks do not charge on their end.

4Ever, I think your comment is a bit over-generalizing. I deal with a variety of U.S. banks, and most of my accounts either don't charge any ATM fees of their own or refund their own ATM fees for using other banks' machines, as well as refunding any ATM fees charged by the other banks, either in total or up to some monthly amount.

Some just do that across the board without any requirements or conditions like Charles Schwab... Others have some requirements that must be met, such as a monthly direct deposit or certain number of POS transactions per month in order to qualify.

Those no ATM fee accounts and banks don't tend to be the big majors, but they're certainly out there to be had.... if someone wants those provisions in their banking relationships.

.

Indeed, I'd have a heart attack if I had to pay the fees charged by Thai banks for ™ withdrawals other than their particular bank card.

I like using my card and being reimbursed for any fees incurred.

[JimGant]

quite a few factors could come into play depending on how the card-issuing bank has coded the card (different acceptable verification methods) and the capabilities of the merchants POS machines and also ATMs.

Interesting, Pib. I've been watching the POS machine action with my Bank of America Travel Awards credit card, ever since you pointed out that many POS machines in Thailand do read chip cards. At the big retailers, like Big C, the machines definitely read the BofA chip, no reverting to swiping, as you found at Tesco. But, I bet my BofA card would not revert to swiping at Tesco -- and maybe here's why:

Your PenFed card is both a chip and signature -- and a chip and pin card:

PenFed chip enabled credit cards are a smart choice because they include both signature and PIN verification

So, Tesco's POS machine read your card as a chip and pin variety -- a mode it can't handle. As such, you would think it would revert to the chip and signature mode option on your PenFed card. Instead, the revert mode appears to be the swipe mode (any Europeans reading this have such an occurrence with their chip and pin cards here in Thailand?). (Or maybe it became swipe mode after the clerk punched too many buttons on the POS machine....)

But, my Bank of America chip card would cause no such confusion in Thailand, and works just fine in chip POS machines -- having no chip and pin option:

When using your Bank of America chip credit card, you'll be prompted for a signature to complete the transaction. When traveling internationally, on rare occasions, you may be asked to provide a PIN. Just communicate to the merchant that the credit card requires a signature only. Bank of America doesn't currently offer consumer credit cards that include PIN authorization for purchases.

In fact, I'm not even sure I could get a pin for my Travel Awards card, should I want to use it in an ATM machine for a cash advance:

Most card issuing banks and Visa don’t want PINs because the PINs can be stolen and used with the magnetic stripe data on the same cards (that also have a chip card) to withdraw cash from ATM machines. Banks eat the ATM fraud costs. This scenario has happened with the roll-out of chip cards with PIN – in Europe and in Canada.

[Pib]

Jim,

Hard telling "all" the magic occurring in some transactions in how the card is coded, how the POS machine is setup, what the checkout clerk really did, etc. I'll try using the card again soon and see what happens on the second usage. Here in Bangkok I see a LOT of Thais who pay with their Thai bank chipped credit cards and I have never seen one have to enter a PIN nor the checkout clerk swipe a Thai bank chipped card. Instead, the card is inserted to read the chip and then a receipt prints out for signature just like a magnetic strip card. So, I'm going to assuming Thai bank cards are setup to default to use "Chip & Signature" vs Chip & PIN at least in Thailand.

I know in at least one of those five links/webpages I listed in my earlier post about how Chip & PIN was probably more secure than Chip & Signature, however since many people use multiple credit and debit cards having to remember a PIN for each card can be tough especially if the card-issuing bank don't offer customer selectable PINs...instead the customer must use the PIN issued with the card. PenFed issued me a random generated PIN which showed up separately from the card mailing. I've already called PenFed to see if I could select my own PIN for the credit card...the answer was No, they only issue the random generated PINs...you can't select you own.

Now I "think" before when applying for a new credit card, getting it, and then activating it I was offered the choice at that time to select my PIN which I did. But I applied for the PenFed Defender credit card on the phone while calling PenFed about another issue, I was not offered a chance during the telephone application to pick a PIN number (don't know if maybe I had done the application online I would have been given a choice), nor was I offered a chance to change/pick the PIN when calling to activate the card. Maybe a random generated PIN for their chip enabled credit cards is an additional security measure for PenFed now. However, for my other PenFed credit card I was able to pick my own PIN but I can't remember if I did that during the online application or during the card activation. I'm going to call back to PenFed again soon to see if the rep I get this time says I can change the PIN, but the rep I talked to seemed knowledgeable on the subject and he even confirmed with his supervisor during our call...and there is nothing I could find on the PenFed website about being able to select your own "credit card" PIN. I also noticed with PenFed "debit" cards now you can change the PIN online, however, but, it will cause the issue of a new card with new number. Expect Penfed has changed their PIN policies for at least some of their products, they vary between their credit card and debit card products, and/or ?????

Pib

Edited December 24, 2014 by Pib

[Pib]

Jim,

I just used the PenFed chipped card for the second time...this time at a PTT fuel station to pay for fuel versus my 1st use at Tesco Lotus to pay for groceries. Same thing happened again with the chip transaction attempt not working. The fuel attendant stuck the chip card into the slot at least three times...he only pressed the button one time in some kind of attempt...then he just swiped the magnetic strip to do the transaction. Either the chip is defective, their POS machine and the PenFed chip don't get along, etc...etc...etc. Or maybe the PenFed card is prompting for entry of a PIN, they are trying to bypass a PIN entry, and then just say the heck with it and say lets give the magnetic strip a try.

I've never been able to see what the POS display is saying but based on how fast the PTT attendant inserted, looked at the POS display, and then reinserted several times I would guess it was displaying some type of invalid message...really don't know. Will give PenFed a call soon to ask them some questions about card using these two transactions as reference.

So right now I have a chipped card where I must use the magnetic strip.

Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In fact, I'm not even sure I could get a pin for my Travel Awards card, should I want to use it in an ATM machine for a cash advance:I can

I'm away from all my resources right now... But it would seem that the BofA Travel Rewards VISA credit card does allow ATM cash advances, as I would expect it would -- not that anyone would especially want to pay the BofA cash advance fees listed below.

Cash Advances Direct Deposit and Check Cash Advances:

Either $10 or 3% of the amount of each transaction, whichever is greater.

ATM, Over-the-Counter, Same-Day Online and Cash Equivalent Cash Advances:

Either $10 or 5% of the amount of each transaction, whichever is greater.

https://www.bankofamerica.com/credit-cards/credit-cards-terms-and-conditions.go?cid=2111850&po=9P&request_locale=en_US

I can't say I can recall a U.S. regular credit card that doesn't allow ATM cash advances, especially since they're quite a significant source of fees and interest charges for the banks. My sense is, sometimes, the cardholder may have to request a PIN, if they didn't receive one automatically with card issuance, in order to use the card in that way. But I've never heard of a regular credit card issuing bank saying they wouldn't provide a PIN connected to a credit card.

[JimGant]

But I've never heard of a regular credit card issuing bank saying they wouldn't provide a PIN connected to a credit card.

You're right. Pins are available only for ATM transactions for Bank of America's chip cards:

You may request an ATM PIN for cash transactions by calling the number on the back of your card. This PIN is for ATM cash transactions only. This is not the same as Chip & PIN and will not work for purchases.

[JimGant]

Pib,

Check this link out -- for some more head scratching. http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/33951/pin-and-chip-versus-signature-in-the-uk

Sounds like the Andrews Credit Union chip card is the same as your PenFed. But, for cards both chip and pin and chip and signature, the POS machine defers to the chip and signature mode -- at least for US issued cards. But the UK chap in this link had the same instance happen in Australia, where, unlike you, the information for the signature mode was obtained from the chip, not the swipe. But, presumably this UK chap, when he uses this same card in Europe, has it defer to the chip and pin mode. But why a US issued card, with both options, defers to signature -- and same with UK issued card in Australia? Must have something to do with how the POS machines are programmed to react to cards issued in differing places......

Anyway, maybe a reader with a dual option European credit card can tell us how it works in a Thai POS machine. Does the deferral to the signature mode use the chip data -- or are you, like Pib, required to swipe the card?

Time for a drink.

[Pib]

Yeap, from googling/research both the card and POS machine can be set to require/only allow certain authentication modes (i.e, Chip and PIN, Chip and Signature, No Verification, etc). And there is an online and offline mode for Chip and Pin and also Chip and Signature to complicate the situation even more.

Here's a snapshot from Link 5 of my earlier post showing the authentication sequence of several PenFed cards. But regardless of the sequence coded into the card, the POS machine will also have its own programming to only allow certain authentication modes....maybe all...maybe some....maybe just one.

I'll call PenFed sometime over the next week and see if can find out any more info based on the two transactions I've done so far. See what their answer is to why a receipt for signature don't spit when the clerk inserts the chipped card....then has to revert to using the magnetic strip instead.

[grin]

My Citi ThankYou credit cards are chip enabled and work fine In Thailand when pushed into the chip enabled machines and also when swiped if the machine has no slot. Exactly like they work in the US. Never was aware that a PIN might be necessary.

Grin

[Pib]

Called PenFed last night about the chipped portion of the card not working. 1st rep I talked to just listened to the overview of my problem. said I probably needed a replacement card and he would get a replacement mailed to me. I said before doing that can we talk the issue with the credit card department to see what the system shows for the two transactions I had already done but had to use the magnetic strip portion just in case its a account setup problem on their end. He said OK let me connect you to the credit card dept but when he transferred me it was just to an automated system for Lost or Stolen cards and the automated voice said it could only "block" the card or give me the phone number for the card-issuing bank to work the problem. Well, I didn't want to block the card and already had PenFed's number. So I hung up and called back.

Got a different rep this time, explained the problem again and this rep worked the issue more by asking me some questions, then putting me on hold to talk to credit card dept reps, came back on to ask a few more questions, then put on hold so the rep could discuss with the credit card dept some more, and then I had a one second power outage that caused loss of the connection as I was at home calling from my VOIP system/cordless phone. Man, I'm beginning to think I'm jinxed. So I called back knowing my chances of getting the same rep was slim but at least I knew the name to ask for.

Called back...give the name of the rep I had just been working the problem with...but the rep didn't know such person and said that rep was probably at another call center location as they have several. Ok I explain the problem again but the rep said all they could do is mail me new cards for the wife and me and there had been reports of chips not working and they were mailed replacement cards. Current cards continues to work and the credit number don't change until you get the new cards. So, new cards are supposedly in the mail...I expect it will be at least two weeks before they show up.

Now since the wife got a card also and it has the same account number and even same CVC on the back, we tried it today at Foodland--and it worked. The checkout clerk did have to insert it twice while doing their typical pushing of a few button, but the receipt for signature popped out. We then asked the clerk if she had to do anything special to get the card to work and she said no...all normal. I didn't press the issue of why did you have to insert it twice...maybe on the first insert she press the wrong button and just decided to start over by reinserting....I don't know....she just said no problem in doing the chipped transactions. We explained they reason we are asking is since my card was not working at two other places. While we wait for the replacement cards to show up we'll give the wife's chipped PenFed card a try at Lotus where mine failed...and I'll probably be able to give mine a try at Foodland before the replacement arrives since we usually go once a week.

Maybe the chip on my card is defective, but if I do get it to work at Foodland then it's probably something to do with the POS machines at Lotus and PTT....or my chip is just intermittent as I had a magnetic strip do that once to me about 10 years ago where you had to swipe it as just the right speed to get it to work. When I got a replacement card it work no matter what speed you swiped it.

Yeap, still trying hard to lose my chipped card virginity...maybe soon.

[Pib]

The wife tried her card at Tesco Lotus this morning which is one of the places mine failed. Her card worked no problem and it was only inserted once. So her card is 2 for 2 using the chip while my card 0 for 2....but mine is 2 for 2 when using the magnetic strip. The clerk inserted the wife's card, the receipt of signature spit right out. Since my card works with the magnetic strip then it has nothing to do with a possible country block.

I'm going to try mine at Lotus one more time over the next day or two to see if it magically starts working. If it does then I'm thinking that the 2nd PenFed rep I was talking to who was working with the credit card dept when I experienced the power failure and lost the call may have found a system problem on their end preventing my chip from working although the magnetic strip worked. But I'm getting ahead of myself...gotta run that card test at Lotus again to see what happens. Regardless, a replacement card is supposedly in the mail.

[Pib]

I'm now batting 2 for 4 when using the chip...I have lost my chipped-card use virginity. Used the card at Pizza Hut and Lotus today...no problem with the chip at either place. Clerk inserted the card and the receipt for signature popped right out. While the chip could be intermittent my money is the PenFed fixed something on their end the night I called about the problem when I was 0 for 2 but I got cutoff before they could tell me they hopefully have it fixed on their end.

Since the U.S. will be switching over to chipped cards in mass over the next few years when your chipped card shows up and the magnetic strip works fine but the chip don't, well, the chip may actually be good but the card-issuing bank just has a setup problem on their end which requires correction. And as mentioned earlier, the card worked fine when using the magnetic strip so it wasn't a country block issue unless maybe on the bank's end they can set country block flags for the either the magnetic strip or chip. Hard telling what the real problem was.

But at least my problem caused me to research how the chip card various authentication modes (i.e, Chip & Signature, Chip & PIN, Online Chip & PIN, Offline Chip & Pin, magnetic strip, etc) works, how the card-issuing bank can setup the card to work in various modes, how the merchant can set their POS to accept certain modes, etc. Definitely quite a few issues controlled by the card issuing bank and merchant can affect "if" your card will work when using the chip and/or magnetic strip.

It also made it clear to me that losing a chipped card that can work in Chip & Signature authentication mode is just like losing a regular card that has a magnetic strip only because with Chip & Signature authentication no PIN is required. Thai credit cards apparently use Chip & Signature authentication also because here in Bangkok I see Thai credit cards being used all the time and they are simply inserted into the POS machine and the receipt for signature pops out...Chip & PIN is not used...maybe the Thai credit cards are setup for Chip & Signature plus Chip & PIN like my new PenFed credit card. It can be just like losing cash. Loss of the card (or get it stolen) and the bad guy can just go on a spending spree since checkout clerks in Thailand don't do any card checking again a ID or compare your signature to an ID. So, while a chip makes it harder to skim a card, a chip really don't make no big advance in preventing many kinds of fraudulent transactions when not used in Chip & PIN mode.

Time to celebrate...time for a Chang beer.

[zeekgarcia]

Can you explain how with your credit card you do the counter withdraw with no cash advance fee on your credit card?

Easy. As mentioned PenFed credit cards are one of the few line of credit cards that do not charge a cash advance fee nor foreign transaction fee. The great majority of credit cards do charge a cash advance fee even though they may not charge a foreign transaction fee...but PenFed credit cards do not charge a cash advance fee. So, I go do a counter withdrawal cash advance which incurs no cash advance or foreign transaction fee from PenFed nor any fee from the Thai bank...like the foreign card Bt180 fee incurred if using a Thai bank ATM.

Now although there is no cash advance fee by PenFed interest does begin to accumulate from day one of the cash advance. After doing the cash advance I come back home, log onto my PenFed account and make payment in full based on the Visa exchange rate for that day. By payment in full I accomplish an ACH payment/transfer from one of my primary banks, usually USAA, since I don't keep that much money in PenFed accounts. By initiating the payment it counts as actual payment that day although it will be several days before the funds payment/transfer actually arrive from the other bank. Now I could have actually made an advance payment before going to do the cash withdrawal but don't want to have a big credit on my credit card account in case when I go to the bank to do the cash advance I can't for some reason like the bank is closed, the card don't work, I have an accident, just whatever reason that would prevent the cash advance from occurring.

Since a credit card transaction (even a cash advance) takes several days to post/finalize, I check my PenFed account a few days later to see what exchange rate I got based on the exchange rate of the posting date which is going to be a little different than the exchange rate on the day of the cash advance, and if the payment I made a few days earlier is a few dollars short I pay those few dollars at that time. Even in those cases where I needed to make a few dollars extra payment a few days later I still did not incur any interest charge for that statement month. I've done around 10 cash advances using my PenFed credit card since early this year....have not incurred any fees or any interest.

Rec'd the Defender credit card this week....now have two PenFed credit cards to use.

When you do the over the counter withdraw with your credit card do you enter your pin or sign your name?

[zeekgarcia]

Can you explain how with your credit card you do the counter withdraw with no cash advance fee on your credit card?

Easy. As mentioned PenFed credit cards are one of the few line of credit cards that do not charge a cash advance fee nor foreign transaction fee. The great majority of credit cards do charge a cash advance fee even though they may not charge a foreign transaction fee...but PenFed credit cards do not charge a cash advance fee. So, I go do a counter withdrawal cash advance which incurs no cash advance or foreign transaction fee from PenFed nor any fee from the Thai bank...like the foreign card Bt180 fee incurred if using a Thai bank ATM.

Now although there is no cash advance fee by PenFed interest does begin to accumulate from day one of the cash advance. After doing the cash advance I come back home, log onto my PenFed account and make payment in full based on the Visa exchange rate for that day. By payment in full I accomplish an ACH payment/transfer from one of my primary banks, usually USAA, since I don't keep that much money in PenFed accounts. By initiating the payment it counts as actual payment that day although it will be several days before the funds payment/transfer actually arrive from the other bank. Now I could have actually made an advance payment before going to do the cash withdrawal but don't want to have a big credit on my credit card account in case when I go to the bank to do the cash advance I can't for some reason like the bank is closed, the card don't work, I have an accident, just whatever reason that would prevent the cash advance from occurring.

Since a credit card transaction (even a cash advance) takes several days to post/finalize, I check my PenFed account a few days later to see what exchange rate I got based on the exchange rate of the posting date which is going to be a little different than the exchange rate on the day of the cash advance, and if the payment I made a few days earlier is a few dollars short I pay those few dollars at that time. Even in those cases where I needed to make a few dollars extra payment a few days later I still did not incur any interest charge for that statement month. I've done around 10 cash advances using my PenFed credit card since early this year....have not incurred any fees or any interest.

Rec'd the Defender credit card this week....now have two PenFed credit cards to use.

I am correct that PenFed's cash advance fee FREE credit card is their PenFed Promise Visa® Card ?

Also does PenFed have any no fee atm debit cards? as i looked at their website and could not find any.

Edited January 31, 2015 by zeekgarcia

[Pib]

When you do the over the counter withdraw with your credit card do you enter your pin or sign your name?

I do "not" enter a PIN for a cash advance or purchase. A receipt of signature prints out which you sign, whether it's a chipped or magnetic stripe card, just like buying something in a store. PenFed is now switching to chipped cards like most American banks and as mentioned I now have two PenFed credit cards....one was a new card/account I just got which came with a chipped card on initial issue....and the other one is an account I've had for a couple years and just got a replacement card since the current one was expiring and it came as a chipped card. I used that replacement chipped card just yesterday to do a cash advance for Bt60K....no pin required although I was prepared to the PIN if needed...the teller took it to a central POS machine in the teller area, inserted the chipped portion, the receipt for signature printed out, I signed it, done. Exact same procedure as when the card was not-chipped...just had the magnetic stripe.

PenFed "chipped" credit cards can be used as Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature...and they still have the magnetic stripe on the back also. They default to the Chip & Signature mode like most American chipped cards in comparison to European chipped cards which appear to default to PIN mode....how those modes are setup is purely up to the card-issuing bank. Now by default I mean they talk to the Point of Service (POS) machine and basically say I can do Chip & Signature, Chip & PIN, or magnetic stripe and I can do online PIN or offline PIN...I would prefer to do Chip & Signature if that's OK with you...if not, we can do Chip & PIN or magnetic stripe if desired...whatever mode makes you happy Mr. POS machine in accomplishing the transaction.

[Pib]

I am correct that PenFed's cash advance fee FREE credit card is their PenFed Promise Visa® Card ?

Also does PenFed have any no fee atm debit cards? as i looked at their website and could not find any.

"All" PenFed credit cards do not charge a cash advance fee or foreign transaction fee.

Their ATM/debit cards do charge a foreign transaction fee.

[Pib]

Can you explain how with your credit card you do the counter withdraw with no cash advance fee on your credit card?

Easy. As mentioned PenFed credit cards are one of the few line of credit cards that do not charge a cash advance fee nor foreign transaction fee. The great majority of credit cards do charge a cash advance fee even though they may not charge a foreign transaction fee...but PenFed credit cards do not charge a cash advance fee. So, I go do a counter withdrawal cash advance which incurs no cash advance or foreign transaction fee from PenFed nor any fee from the Thai bank...like the foreign card Bt180 fee incurred if using a Thai bank ATM.

Now although there is no cash advance fee by PenFed interest does begin to accumulate from day one of the cash advance. After doing the cash advance I come back home, log onto my PenFed account and make payment in full based on the Visa exchange rate for that day. By payment in full I accomplish an ACH payment/transfer from one of my primary banks, usually USAA, since I don't keep that much money in PenFed accounts. By initiating the payment it counts as actual payment that day although it will be several days before the funds payment/transfer actually arrive from the other bank. Now I could have actually made an advance payment before going to do the cash withdrawal but don't want to have a big credit on my credit card account in case when I go to the bank to do the cash advance I can't for some reason like the bank is closed, the card don't work, I have an accident, just whatever reason that would prevent the cash advance from occurring.

Since a credit card transaction (even a cash advance) takes several days to post/finalize, I check my PenFed account a few days later to see what exchange rate I got based on the exchange rate of the posting date which is going to be a little different than the exchange rate on the day of the cash advance, and if the payment I made a few days earlier is a few dollars short I pay those few dollars at that time. Even in those cases where I needed to make a few dollars extra payment a few days later I still did not incur any interest charge for that statement month. I've done around 10 cash advances using my PenFed credit card since early this year....have not incurred any fees or any interest.

Rec'd the Defender credit card this week....now have two PenFed credit cards to use.

Guess I will need to change my process of paying for the PenFed cash advance as they have changed their ibanking credit card payment system a little over the last month or so...it may have changed with the start of 2015.

As described above I always did the counter withdrawal/cash advance first and later that day logged onto PenFed ibanking to make a same day payment in full....done this around a dozen times over the last year. But now you can not make an advance payment "that exceeds the current credit card balance." So, say you balance was zero which mine usually is, you can not make a same day payment like before because the cash advance hasn't posted to the PenFed ibanding system yet (that usually takes a couple business days to post). Although it takes a few days for the cash advance to post to/appear in the PenFed ibanking, when it does post it shows the actual date of withdrawal as the posting date. Now what this causes is one day of cash advance interest being charged which works out to about 50 cents a day if doing an approx $2,000/Bt65,000 cash advance which is the max allowed per day.

So, on my latest cash advance I did late last week I ended up getting hit with 49 cents interest for the cash advance since I could not make a same day payment as I always had. The horror...49 cents....this is the first time going on 4 years I've had to pay any fee/interest that was not reimbursed on my no foreign transaction fee & no cash advance fee debit/credit cards. I feel violated by the banksters.

However, based on some testing I've already done, you can schedule a next day payment that exceeds your current credit card balance. So, I guess for my next cash advance I will schedule a next day payment of around $2,000 and then wait until the next day (or later) to go do the cash advance. That way the cash advance and payment are on the same day (or the payment is before the cash advance) and no interest will be charged. That's how I will alter my playbook to deal with how PenFed moved the goalposts a little. Schedule a next day payment (a.k.a., prepayment) and then wait at least one day before doing the cash advance.

Once again, 49 cents---the horror...fee/interest-violated by a bankster.

[joealx]

Read Penfed reviews at creditkarma.com

Edited February 4, 2015 by joealx