Passport Renewal Problem Because Of Bad Debt

[Foggy Dew]

Hi All,

Thai wife’s passport renewal problem with Embassy apparently because of old personal debt in Thailand.

About 8 years ago my wife borrowed some money from her friend (Miss A.) to invest in what transpired to be a Ponzi Scheme.

This money had been borrowed / returned with interest and borrowed again and reinvested over a number of years. Each time getting a good return from the scheme organiser and each time upping the investment.

Miss A. was aware where the money was been invested but did not want to get involved directly herself. She was happy to get the high return from my wife’s investment.

At the time she gave her friend Miss A. an undated cheque for the amount she borrowed. The Ponzi scheme organiser disappeared with the money. My wife told Miss A she would pay her back when she could.

My wife did pay some of the money back to Miss A. This all happened before I met my wife. We married and now live outside Thailand. She did not continue to pay when she left Thailand.

My wife applied for a new passport at the Thai Embassy. When she did not receive the new passport within the usual time frame she contacted the Embassy and was told there was a problem renewing her passport because of the cheque she had given to Miss A was not honoured by the bank.

I do not have the funds to pay back this debt.

Can someone get a passport renewal blocked in Thailand because of a personal debt?

Any advice on how to proceed from here would be appreciated.

Regards,

Foggy

[Beetlejuice]

It appears that in this case, there maybe some sort of warrant issued for the arrest of your wife by the Thai authorities and they are trying to limit her options for travel outside of Thailand.

In other words the Thai police want her to return to Thailand perhaps to face criminal charges.

I would guess that when your wife contacted the Thai Embassy, she was told more than; there was a problem renewing her passport because of the cheque she had given to Miss A was not honoured by the bank.

I checked out Ponzi schemes and seems to involved fraud, theft and deception. Probably a large amount of money involved, all considered as very serious criminal offences and think you and your wife could be in deep do dos.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ponzi_scheme

Edited July 22, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[Foggy Dew]

Sorry if I did not make it clear my wife was an investor in the scheme.

That is she lost her money in the scheme when the operator of the scheme disappeared with all the money from the investors. Her problem was that she borrowed money from her friend to invest and was not able to pay it back when the scheme collapsed.

So she was not involved in running the scheme. She was duped by it!

Yes she was naive, even greedy. If you would like to read how people become duped by such schemes just Google Bernard Madoff.

To the best of our knowledge there has been no court action regarding this. And for sure nothing to do with criminal charges.

Regards

Foggy.

[moe666]

You need more info from the Embassy go with your wife next time.

[somtampet]

Sorry if I did not make it clear my wife was an investor in the scheme.

That is she lost her money in the scheme when the operator of the scheme disappeared with all the money from the investors. Her problem was that she borrowed money from her friend to invest and was not able to pay it back when the scheme collapsed.

So she was not involved in running the scheme. She was duped by it!

Yes she was naive, even greedy. If you would like to read how people become duped by such schemes just Google Bernard Madoff.

To the best of our knowledge there has been no court action regarding this. And for sure nothing to do with criminal charges.

Regards

Foggy.

Could be bouncing a cheque,its a criminal offense in Thailand and she left Thailand without paying the full debt,so she is a criminal

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Sorry if I did not make it clear my wife was an investor in the scheme.

That is she lost her money in the scheme when the operator of the scheme disappeared with all the money from the investors. Her problem was that she borrowed money from her friend to invest and was not able to pay it back when the scheme collapsed.

So she was not involved in running the scheme. She was duped by it!

Yes she was naive, even greedy. If you would like to read how people become duped by such schemes just Google Bernard Madoff.

To the best of our knowledge there has been no court action regarding this. And for sure nothing to do with criminal charges.

Regards

Foggy.

Could be bouncing a cheque,its a criminal offense in Thailand and she left Thailand without paying the full debt,so she is a criminal

Yes, indeed, see below.

Mac

http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/resources/thailand%E2%80%99s-criminal-bad-check-laws

Thailand’s Criminal Bad Check Laws

AUTHOR

Chusert Supasitthumrong

T: +66 2653 5793

Contact by e-mail

RELATED PRACTICE AREA

Dispute Resolution and Litigation

Back to last page

Informed Counsel

August 31, 2010

When it comes to bad check legislation, Thailand is unique. In addition to civil remedies available under the Civil and Commercial Code against those who pass bad checks, Thailand is one of the few jurisdictions in the world in which there can also extend criminal liability. Criminal liability is evaluated under the Act Governing Offenses Arising from the Use of Checks B.E. 2534 (1991) (the Act). Under the Act, a criminal conviction may give rise to imprisonment of up to one year and/or a fine of up to THB 60,000. Needless to say, the potential for such criminal punishment can have a significant impact on business and personal freedoms, a point that has led to considerable debate on the need for such laws.

[note, the full article is here:

http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/sites/default/files/informed_counsel_vol1_no3_p3.pdf

[gregb]

the cheque she had given to Miss A was not honoured by the bank.

This is not a "personal debt".

Bouncing a check is a serious criminal offence in Thailand. It is not a civil matter like in the West. Your wife almost certainly has a warrant out for her arrest, and will be taken into custody when she returns to the country and passes through immigration. Suggest you contact a Thai lawyer ASAP and try to resolve this problem. At the very least you are going to have to make good on the check, and probably pay interest and fines as well.

Your only other option would be to divorce her and let her be sued into bankruptcy. She will probably have to serve time in jail in this case.

Sorry for your situation, but the fact that your wife got screwed by a pyramid scheme does not mitigate her responsibility to pay the check. She got greedy and fell for a scam. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. But you never write a check for something in Thailand when you don't have the funds to cover it. That will land you in jail.

To the best of our knowledge there has been no court action regarding this. And for sure nothing to do with criminal charges.

I am sorry to say, I find that highly unlikely. When the check bounces, even the bank will tell the customer to take the matter to the police. It is almost inconceivable to me that criminal charges are not outstanding against your wife.

Edited July 23, 2011 by gregb

[Lancelot]

With out really thinking (about the risk of arrest) could your wife travel to Thailand on a foreign passport-if she has one that is.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Lancelot

[GM1955]

Its the bouncing cheque that's the problem, when an attempt was made to cash it, no funds, in Thailand that's a criminal offence.

There would almost have certainly been an arrest warrant issued.

[Foggy Dew]

Hi Lads,

A sincere thank you for your informative replies.

Looks like the next step is to get a good lawyer to do a search make some enquiries and ascertain what the actual facts are.

I do know that the bank account was closed before she left Thailand four years ago. We have been back a number of times since with no difficulty, she was there this time last year.

At the time the cheque was undated. So presumably Miss A presented the cheque for payment in the last year or so.

Thanks to your replies, it does look like it is a serious matter and I need to get all the facts regarding the whole case from the start.

There have been no legal or other type of documents sent to her home regarding this or any other matter. She is in regular contact with her family and they are not aware of any outstanding matters. Her address at the time was not her family home address. In the “tabien baan” her address is her family home address.

Thanks again,

Foggy

[Foggy Dew]

Hi Thanyaburi Mac,

I just finished reading the PDF at the link you provided. It would appear that if Miss A did get a conviction through the criminal court system, there are good grounds for appeal.

Points A, C and D below look like good grounds from the information that I have at present.

What follows are several examples of Supreme Court rulings in which criminal convictions under the Act have been unsuccessful.

<A> Issuance of the check was for the purpose of a guarantee and not for payment of a direct debt or obligation.

(Supreme Court Case 988/1970)

<B> Issuance of the check was for payment of a gambling debt, which is an unenforceable debt under Thai law.

(Supreme Court Case 2493/1984, 1052/1986)

<C> Issuance of the check was for payment of a loan unsupported by a loan agreement.

(Supreme Court Case 862/1969)

<D> The check was issued without properly dating the check, thereby making a determination of the date of payment uncertain.

(Supreme Court Case 2039/1980, 1934/1984)

As in the above Supreme Court examples, if the payee is not entitled to pursue a criminal conviction against the drawer due to the failure to satisfy prerequisites under the Act, he or she may still have the right to pursue a civil claim against the drawer.

Having read the article I am feeling a little relieved. It is possibly not as clear cut as Bad Cheque = Criminal. For sure there are issues to be addressed and I will be in contact with a lawyer Monday.

Great that fellow members of Thai Visa can shine a light in what has been a dark 24 hours in our home because of my wife’s worry about this and the possible consequences.

Thank you.

Foggy

[Heng]

This should be the world standard for all countries when dealing with debt runners. You shouldn't be able to run or hide.

Although I'd take it a step further and include 'detention on arrival.' Why just keep them from traveling home? By all means welcome them home.

[farang000999]

since u live in one of those socialist european countries cant ur wife just pay off her Thai debt with some nice shiny credit cards that she wont need to ever pay back

[DLock]

This seems to happen a lot in Thailand.

What amazes me is how few people who have lost money go to the trouble of chasing it.

Many times its just a shrug of the shoulders and a "mai bpen rai".

Why did you wife stop paying anyway? She must have known there was a good chance this would come back to haunt her one day.

She's only sorry she got caught.

[Berkshire]

Firstly, Foggy, I'm not sure why you even bring up the Ponzi Scheme. That seems to be completely irrelevant. The only relevant issue is that she borrowed money from someone and refuses to pay it back. Doesn't really matter what she did with the money. Which begs the question--why can't she just pay the money back? Even a little at a time, via an installment or some other sort of arrangement. I do hope the government cracks down on this sort of thing. Not cool.

[robblok]

So because she was duped you feel she did not have to pay it back ? She loaned from miss A and its ok that she looses out.. hmmm

[Heng]

What amazes me is how few people who have lost money go to the trouble of chasing it.

Actually the endless amount of seized property (and at an increasing rate) that ends up at Legal Execution Dept. auctions suggests that plenty of folks go through the trouble of chasing after AND getting the assets of debtors.