They Are Completely Mad-They Really Really Are.....

[Colin Yai]

This lack of understanding the relationship between 'action and consequence' is not confined to Thailand. It is found though out the world, predominantly in poor countries among the poor uneducated.

I think foresight, in the form of 'action and consequence' is something we take for granted in the west, it is something we learn, sublimely at an early age, there is a limited time frame for the development within the brain to establish a neural network. Fail to stimulate the brain at an early age, (from birth to, it's believed around 4years of age) for example; a baby playing with a toy hammer, knocking pegs into holes learns pretty quick that smacking his head or hand is not a nice feeling……So he/she starts to develop, not only don't hit yourself with a hammer, but hitting yourself with anything hurts. Playing and experimenting at this stage in a babies deployment will provide a mass of stored examples in the brain that can be accessed and cross referenced, sublimely to flag danger.

Not only do people who have stunted 'action and consequence' ability's, they also have very little imagination, empathy and as such tend to be selfish, live hand to mouth and are childlike in there thinking…………….Can you think of anyone that fits this description?

This brain deployment at an early age is key to laying down the neural network that we will take for granted as we go through life. The window is only open for a few years, miss this window, and a person will struggle to make the 'action and consequence' connection. As adults these people are unable to cross reference a mental data bank, and draw on, (sublimely) information that would sound alarm bells

In the west we spend billion upon billion of $ on early learning toys. Why are western parents buying all these toys, is it because we, (westerners) are so astute? Well in the main it's because we can afford them, and we show our love in this way.

Poor families would struggle to provide toys and time to a very young child. The family unit is just trying to get enough money each dayto provide food, small babies are wrapped up and either strapped to someone's back or left in a room somewhere. They live there early years in a mental vacuum!

This does not only affect poor, under developed counties, this condition is not confined to the poor, take a baby, rich or poor, farang,Thai and starve it of stimulation; interaction, mental and physical in its early years and you'll have a person grow up who is not only a danger to themselves but to all around them.

Spot on Tonto however I would think China is far worse than Thailand and #1 in the world for road accident deaths http://pop.6park.com/life2/messages/24007.html if you want to see sheer madness view the link, mind you its a terrific music score I have got to admit .!!! Edited August 27, 2011 by Colin Yai

[F1fanatic]

The buddha taught about mindfulness and carefulness; so lets not bring buddishm into what sounds like basic backwards ignorant behaviour by someone who knows no different because everybody else in the village is doing same same, ja?

Thank you for saying that. Far too many people are ready to ascribe all manners of wrong doing to Buddhism.

Stupidity is not part of Buddhism.

Anyway, since when were the Thais most of us know "real" Buddhists in the same sense as how many farangs are "real" Christians?

Would think you would be opening a can of worms

What is true Buddhism and in the same vein as what is true Christianity ?......its what ever version of the doctrine the indivual concerned beleives it is, its their interpretation or perception...there is not right or wrong "versions"

I disagree. Some things are clearly beyond the pale.

'Merit making' when it involves money is just wrong, as is praying for money - this is against the fundamentals of all religions.

Similarly when 'christians' believe they are absolved of responsibility by 'confessing' they are missing the whole point of christianity.

[NanLaew]

The buddha taught about mindfulness and carefulness; so lets not bring buddishm into what sounds like basic backwards ignorant behaviour by someone who knows no different because everybody else in the village is doing same same, ja?

Thank you for saying that. Far too many people are ready to ascribe all manners of wrong doing to Buddhism.

Stupidity is not part of Buddhism.

Anyway, since when were the Thais most of us know "real" Buddhists in the same sense as how many farangs are "real" Christians?

Would think you would be opening a can of worms

What is true Buddhism and in the same vein as what is true Christianity ?......its what ever version of the doctrine the indivual concerned beleives it is, its their interpretation or perception...there is not right or wrong "versions"

I disagree. Some things are clearly beyond the pale.

'Merit making' when it involves money is just wrong, as is praying for money - this is against the fundamentals of all religions.

Similarly when 'christians' believe they are absolved of responsibility by 'confessing' they are missing the whole point of christianity.

Teaching your kid to pray about winning the lottery is OK though.

Only Catholics 'confess'. Other Christians just curse their bad luck at being caught.

[Soutpeel]

I disagree. Some things are clearly beyond the pale.

'Merit making' when it involves money is just wrong, as is praying for money - this is against the fundamentals of all religions.

Similarly when 'christians' believe they are absolved of responsibility by 'confessing' they are missing the whole point of christianity.

So why in the cases of "Merit making" involving money is the practice not discouraged or refused by the "institutions" concerned ?

A similar parallel can be drawn with Christian churchs, but have never seen the Roman Catholic discouraging its faithful from putting cash on the plate on a Sunday....

You are making a statment that this is against the fundamentals of all religions....but would suggest that this is your interpretation of the doctrine, and it appears to differ from the opinion of many main stream religons.

What exactly is the whole point of Christianity, I would suggest the point of Christianity and other religions for that matter is what ever the person concerned believes the point is, the basic premise of all organised religions plays on peoples fear of the unknown and one group of people controlling another group...

[Soutpeel]

Teaching your kid to pray about winning the lottery is OK though.

Only Catholics 'confess'. Other Christians just curse their bad luck at being caught.

[Thakkar]

She might be using the umbrella to protect the child from the sun. Not a good idea to drive like that, but it might not be because she's worried about getting a tan

I guess its our western values that make us mad to a certain extent ?

Without question with no warning you would have the child removed immediately if in the UK

If say in the UK, if all the "consequences" were removed from the equation, would the population of UK revert to similar behaviours, or would they do the "right thing".....

Is it a case of "our "western values" which make us "do the right thing" or is it a case of in the West there is a degree accountability/consequence for ones actions, which make us think twice before acting ?

Good question . Which makes me wonder whether the posters lamenting the "excessive" rules in Western "nanny states" are the same ones who complain loudly about Thai driving, construction quality and such.

T

[David006]

Englishman leads 600 guys on horses with lances and swords between two hills against mechanized firepower...

Englishman drives shipload of innocents through ocean at top speed where icebergs are reported without adequate lookout..

... :rolleyes:

[F1fanatic]

I disagree. Some things are clearly beyond the pale.

'Merit making' when it involves money is just wrong, as is praying for money - this is against the fundamentals of all religions.

Similarly when 'christians' believe they are absolved of responsibility by 'confessing' they are missing the whole point of christianity.

So why in the cases of "Merit making" involving money is the practice not discouraged or refused by the "institutions" concerned ?

A similar parallel can be drawn with Christian churchs, but have never seen the Roman Catholic discouraging its faithful from putting cash on the plate on a Sunday....

You are making a statment that this is against the fundamentals of all religions....but would suggest that this is your interpretation of the doctrine, and it appears to differ from the opinion of many main stream religons.

What exactly is the whole point of Christianity, I would suggest the point of Christianity and other religions for that matter is what ever the person concerned believes the point is, the basic premise of all organised religions plays on peoples fear of the unknown and one group of people controlling another group...

I agree with your last paragraph.

As for the first, Jesus threw out the money-lenders and said something along the lines of the widow's groat is worth more than the riches of the wealthy and, of course, something about the wealthy standing a better chance of getting thru' the eye of a needle than entering the kingdom of god. i.e. wealth is a hinderance, decreasing ones' chances of doing good. But I agree that main stream religion has resulted in most of us looking at them in disbelief.

Buddhism is also supposed to be about doing 'good'. Buddah left his money behind to achieve 'enlightenment'.

[Atmos]

Having lived through one high season next to a 90-degree bend in the secondary road to Phuket's Big Buddha hill, I could easily have composed a thread 'they are completely mad they really are' . . . about motorbike-riding tourists.

Speed, lack of bike riding exp and skills, no protective clothing, often helmets in the basket etc - one involved 2 women in bikinis skidding down the road (one grazed ankle to temple). Probably the 'best' was while assisting a man extract his bike from the bushes we had to move quickly to allow his wife to crash, she'd been going faster to catch him up, with their 3-4yr old boy standing in front of her on the bike. No helmets.

The list goes on . . . fortunately never a serious injury; we never had a dissatisfied or rude customer, all very polite and gracious once the crying or moaning stopped, we met some nice people as we offered antiseptic, iodine, gauze etc with a nice cup of tea.

'they are completely mad they really are'

Edited August 27, 2011 by Atmos

[F1fanatic]

Having lived through one high season next to a 90-degree bend in the secondary road to Phuket's Big Buddha hill, I could easily have composed a thread 'they are completely mad they really are' . . . about motorbike-riding tourists.

Speed, lack of bike riding exp and skills, no protective clothing, often helmets in the basket etc - one involved 2 women in bikinis skidding down the road (one grazed ankle to temple). Probably the 'best' was while assisting a man extract his bike from the bushes we had to move quickly to allow his wife to crash, she'd been going faster to catch him up, with their 3-4yr old boy standing in front of her on the bike. No helmets.

The list goes on . . . fortunately never a serious injury; we never had a dissatisfied or rude customer, all very polite and gracious once the crying or moaning stopped, we met some nice people as we offered antiseptic, iodine, gauze etc with a nice cup of tea.

'they are completely mad they really are'

Yes, I've posted in another topic that tourists are worse than the locals!

That does not excuse putting someone else's life at risk though - -particularly your own baby...

I refuse to drive my motorbike with any of my dogs on board - much as they would love it!

Edited August 27, 2011 by F1fanatic

[andrewbkk]

This lack of understanding the relationship between 'action and consequence' is not confined to Thailand. It is found though out the world, predominantly in poor countries among the poor uneducated.

I think foresight, in the form of 'action and consequence' is something we take for granted in the west, it is something we learn, sublimely at an early age, there is a limited time frame for the development within the brain to establish a neural network. Fail to stimulate the brain at an early age, (from birth to, it's believed around 4years of age) for example; a baby playing with a toy hammer, knocking pegs into holes learns pretty quick that smacking his head or hand is not a nice feeling……So he/she starts to develop, not only don't hit yourself with a hammer, but hitting yourself with anything hurts. Playing and experimenting at this stage in a babies deployment will provide a mass of stored examples in the brain that can be accessed and cross referenced, sublimely to flag danger.

Not only do people who have stunted 'action and consequence' ability's, they also have very little imagination, empathy and as such tend to be selfish, live hand to mouth and are childlike in there thinking…………….Can you think of anyone that fits this description?

This brain deployment at an early age is key to laying down the neural network that we will take for granted as we go through life. The window is only open for a few years, miss this window, and a person will struggle to make the 'action and consequence' connection. As adults these people are unable to cross reference a mental data bank, and draw on, (sublimely) information that would sound alarm bells

You are using the word "sublime". The word you should be using is "subliminal'.

But yes, what you've you've written is true.

[travelmann]

My GF rides her motorbike with a 6 months old baby in a baby carrying bag 1km to/from her parents house, no umbrella, always wears her helmet.

I will not allow her to ride further, nor will she.

Still fear what would happen if someone with a car/pick-up would hit them

Has she got no legs?

[travelmann]

Englishman leads 600 guys on horses with lances and swords between two hills against mechanized firepower...

Englishman drives shipload of innocents through ocean at top speed where icebergs are reported without adequate lookout..

... :rolleyes:

And how many years ago was that??

[Thakkar]

Agreed, paying the monk to help win a lottery is stupid. I try to cut out the middle man and appeal directly to Buddha to orchestrate a win. Meanwhile I also double my chances by using the money not paid to the monk to buy two tickets instead of one.

But consider this. Bearing in mind the infinitesimally small chance of winning the lottery in a given lifetime, aren't I, and hundreds of millions of others, including many in the developed world, stupid to buy a lottery ticket in the first place?

Of course, there are levels of stupidity. Paying a monk to bless one's ticket takes stupidity to a sublime (not subliminal) level. However a poor person unable to see their way out of poverty except by a lottery win is actually behaving rationally by buying a lottery ticket. For an educated well-to-do person to buy a lottery ticket is rather less rational, though, granted, a much smaller proportion of their income may be wagered.

What of this notion that the great unwashed are oblivious to the consequences of their actions? This flaw is not confined to Thais, or the poor, or the uneducated. The majority of Californians voted for no tax increases while simultaneously voting for enhanced government services. We, all of us, continue to consume beyond the earth's ecological means.

One doesn't have to be a poor, uneducated third world bumpkin to be irrational.

T

Edited August 27, 2011 by Thakkar

[bifftastic]

She might be using the umbrella to protect the child from the sun. Not a good idea to drive like that, but it might not be because she's worried about getting a tan

I guess its our western values that make us mad to a certain extent ?

Without question with no warning you would have the child removed immediately if in the UK

If say in the UK, if all the "consequences" were removed from the equation, would the population of UK revert to similar behaviours, or would they do the "right thing".....

Is it a case of "our "western values" which make us "do the right thing" or is it a case of in the West there is a degree accountability/consequence for ones actions, which make us think twice before acting ?

I think that it's more that the police would actually do something about it if they saw you riding without a helmet, never mind holding a baby and an umbrella! Sometimes the rule and enforcement of laws changes how people act. Seatbelts in cars, for instance, these days I would say 99.9% of drivers in the UK use them, it's seen as stupid not to. In the 1970's hardly anyone used them, some cars didn't even have them. There was a law passed, not much happened, the law was enforced, campaigns on the TV (clunk click every trip etc.) and, eventually, people's perception of what's acceptable, changes.

I don't think that the population of the UK would have independently had a shift in their thinking and used some higher understanding of cause and effect making seatbelt use widely accepted.

It happened because the public perception of how to behave in this regard, was deliberately altered by the government.

Similarly with drunk driving, which was viewed, often by police officers as well, as 'not too clever but ok really...off you go then, be careful!' and is now pretty much frowned upon by most people.

[Tonto21]

This lack of understanding the relationship between 'action and consequence' is not confined to Thailand. It is found though out the world, predominantly in poor countries among the poor uneducated.

I think foresight, in the form of 'action and consequence' is something we take for granted in the west, it is something we learn, sublimely at an early age, there is a limited time frame for the development within the brain to establish a neural network. Fail to stimulate the brain at an early age, (from birth to, it's believed around 4years of age) for example; a baby playing with a toy hammer, knocking pegs into holes learns pretty quick that smacking his head or hand is not a nice feeling……So he/she starts to develop, not only don't hit yourself with a hammer, but hitting yourself with anything hurts. Playing and experimenting at this stage in a babies deployment will provide a mass of stored examples in the brain that can be accessed and cross referenced, sublimely to flag danger.

Not only do people who have stunted 'action and consequence' ability's, they also have very little imagination, empathy and as such tend to be selfish, live hand to mouth and are childlike in there thinking…………….Can you think of anyone that fits this description?

This brain deployment at an early age is key to laying down the neural network that we will take for granted as we go through life. The window is only open for a few years, miss this window, and a person will struggle to make the 'action and consequence' connection. As adults these people are unable to cross reference a mental data bank, and draw on, (sublimely) information that would sound alarm bells

You are using the word "sublime". The word you should be using is "subliminal'.

But yes, what you've you've written is true.

Hi 'andrewbkk' ha ha yes! I didn't see this. My spelling is not that great, I do try.

I normally have no time for the grammar Nazis, however I read your post in the sprit it was written, (I think) Thanks for pointing it out to me............and everyone else.

Tonto.

[IMA_FARANG]

Some years ago I saw a Farang driving a motorcycle in Pattaya.

He had a case of beer in his arms...controlling the motorcycle with one hand.

A Thai woman with a young baby was rideing on the motorcycle as passengers.

I wonder what the priority of that guy driving the motorcycle was?

Stupidity has no nationality.

[Tonto21]

Stupidity is not part of Buddhism

You've hit the ball out of the park with that statement.

And I will add to it, You can't fix Stupid

My wife and I have a newborn son, now two weeks old and doing very well.

I cannot count the number of absolute foolish/stupid things that people say and want my wife to do to ensure, good luck, long life, happiness, etc. Hold him over some magic smoke, I don't think so. Because he looks incrediable like me I must hold him in one hand and a knife in the other and walk up and down the steps three times or we will fight in later life. <deleted>???

Because he's a mirror image of me it must be the magic pills the doctor gave her, UHHH they were vitamins and calcium folks.

There is no common sense here and a tremendous amount of belief in anything any idiot spills out of his mouth.

I'm just thankfull that I'm here to run interferance with all the voodoo silliness, when someone has a bright idea I just say Look at him, he's not Thai he's falang so it won't work. Discusion over.

Ken

BTW: Great post Tonto, explains a lot, I know about how crucial the early brain development is and I think I've gotten it through to the wife also. If nothing else I'll just explain the learning/play aides as "sanuk"

It has little/nothing to do with 'play aides/toys' . Surely most of us here were born when toys were few and far between as our parents couldn't afford v many and, 'learning' toys had not yet been recognised as a money-spinner....

Instead, our parents talked and played with us. My father taught me to read at the age of 4 - after a long day at work. Until I learnt to read, I was read bedtime stories every night as were most Western children. It stimulated our imagination, meaning we didn't need toys - we were able to make up our own fun and games.

Hi 'F1anatic'….You make a fair point about not needing toys, and your story is case in point to the mental stimulation being important for early development. Toys, sure we don't need them for a child's development…….But they don't do any harm, do they, it's not all about toy companies selling toys to a gullible audience, they can enhance a child's development.

As a foot note; it's interesting that some posters infer that people who seemingly display little or no regard to 'action and conscience' are acting out of a sense of 'free will' OK, It is true, I'll give you that, even a person with all there 'ducks in a row'….Mentally speaking, can still make bad judgment calls. That is a case of 'free will'. But I'm referring to some of the crazy thing Thai's do, for no gain of any reason a rational person could think of.

The early deployment stage is not so much about learning, (cognitive memory) it has more to do with a physical neural network, (a growth of synapsis and brain tissue with which the brain will utilize as the person grows up……..After a short growth window, (in the early years) the body turns this area of deployment off, a bit like when our bones stop growing! But unlike our bone, with the brain…It's very much a case of use it or lose it, when it's gone its gone. All the education in the world and brain training will not help an individual, if this area of development has been missed. Basically they are not hard wired to retain certain information…………

[Chivas]

My GF rides her motorbike with a 6 months old baby in a baby carrying bag 1km to/from her parents house, no umbrella, always wears her helmet.

I will not allow her to ride further, nor will she.

Still fear what would happen if someone with a car/pick-up would hit them

Has she got no legs?

No Thai walks more than a 100 metres when they own a bike....

[Chivas]

Englishman leads 600 guys on horses with lances and swords between two hills against mechanized firepower...

Englishman drives shipload of innocents through ocean at top speed where icebergs are reported without adequate lookout..

... :rolleyes:

And how many years ago was that??

Titanic ?? Which was 1912 from memory ??

[Fookhaht]

What? No mobile phone cradled between her shoulder and ear too?

[bifftastic]

My GF rides her motorbike with a 6 months old baby in a baby carrying bag 1km to/from her parents house, no umbrella, always wears her helmet.

I will not allow her to ride further, nor will she.

Still fear what would happen if someone with a car/pick-up would hit them

Has she got no legs?

No Thai walks more than a 100 metres when they own a bike....

I've even seen someone get a lift on someone else's bike to the end of my driveway, which is not even 10 metres long, to get on their own bike to then ride to the shop, 100 metres away!

[andrewbkk]

This lack of understanding the relationship between 'action and consequence' is not confined to Thailand. It is found though out the world, predominantly in poor countries among the poor uneducated.

I think foresight, in the form of 'action and consequence' is something we take for granted in the west, it is something we learn, sublimely at an early age, there is a limited time frame for the development within the brain to establish a neural network. Fail to stimulate the brain at an early age, (from birth to, it's believed around 4years of age) for example; a baby playing with a toy hammer, knocking pegs into holes learns pretty quick that smacking his head or hand is not a nice feeling……So he/she starts to develop, not only don't hit yourself with a hammer, but hitting yourself with anything hurts. Playing and experimenting at this stage in a babies deployment will provide a mass of stored examples in the brain that can be accessed and cross referenced, sublimely to flag danger.

Not only do people who have stunted 'action and consequence' ability's, they also have very little imagination, empathy and as such tend to be selfish, live hand to mouth and are childlike in there thinking…………….Can you think of anyone that fits this description?

This brain deployment at an early age is key to laying down the neural network that we will take for granted as we go through life. The window is only open for a few years, miss this window, and a person will struggle to make the 'action and consequence' connection. As adults these people are unable to cross reference a mental data bank, and draw on, (sublimely) information that would sound alarm bells

You are using the word "sublime". The word you should be using is "subliminal'.

But yes, what you've you've written is true.

Hi 'andrewbkk' ha ha yes! I didn't see this. My spelling is not that great, I do try.

I normally have no time for the grammar Nazis, however I read your post in the sprit it was written, (I think) Thanks for pointing it out to me............and everyone else.

Tonto.

If you look at my post, you'll see I wrote "But yes, what you've you've written is true". Notice I wrote the word "you've" twice. Brain damage!!

Stay cool. Your post was very good.

[Moonrakers]

Road sense here is..... Well, there isn't any.

Just last night my little girl ran across the road without looking. Of course, I wasn't happy and let her know that. The response from the Thai's around me that felt as though they should stick their oar in? "It's OK, nothing happened"

By how much is it possible to miss the point? Light years it would seem.

[Kwasaki]

If you see two people on a bike, without helmets and the driver on his cellphone and think: "That's crazy"—you haven't been here long enough.

If you see three on a bike, no helmets, driver on cellphone and a poodle in the basket and think: "looks like there's room for one more person"—you've been here too long.

I'm somewhere in the middle.

T

Oh dear !! the HSE brigade again, I don't think you hosts here are mad at all, they are good at improvisation.

I see this everyday, my brother in-law dropping the kids off at school so where am I then.

[Tonto21]

'andrewbkk'………………I did see it….ha ha, and I knew you would see it sooner or later. I thought of pointing it out, but, instead I just sat back and thought of you, (when your saw what you'd done) 'squirming' lol…..No big deal mate.

[ludditeman]

I just purchased a car.

My gf wants to drive it, so I say let me see your driving license first.

No she says, I don't have one, and I reply no license invalidates my insurance and what if the police stop you?.

She says, I don't need a license or insurance, my Buddha will protect me.

Edited August 27, 2011 by ludditeman

[F1fanatic]

I just purchased a car.

My gf wants to drive it, so I say let me see your driving license first.

No she says, I don't have one, and I reply no license invalidates my insurance and what if the police stop you?.

She says, I don't need a license or insurance, my Buddha will protect me.

And she's right. Back in the West she would be thought stupid, but that's down to the H&S nazis in the West.

[Tonto21]

I just purchased a car.

My gf wants to drive it, so I say let me see your driving license first.

No she says, I don't have one, and I reply no license invalidates my insurance and what if the police stop you?.

She says, I don't need a license or insurance, my Buddha will protect me.

Fair enough……..The power of faith is a good thing………….Till she raps it around a telephone post, then she will have someone to blame for not watching out for her.

Whatever happens, it won't be her fault……Right?

Yes, Thai faith/logic, call it what you will, can be mind boggling at times. I have this Thai friend, who while traveling as a pillion got stopped by the BIB for not having a helmet; BIB to my friend, "So, where is your helmet?" "oh" she says, "I can't wear a helmet…….My head hurts……I fell of my bike last week, bang my head, to painful to wear helmet"…….."OK" he said, "I believe you……..I see you are carrying crutches, did you hurt your leg as well?" "Yes"she said. "Alright, you can go, but put helmet on when your head gets better".

She told me this yesterday……………………Where do you start…….I tried, in vain, to explain why I found this to be so FUP, all the time trying not to laugh. I did tell her that if she had done this in the UK, she would have probably been hung from an overpass with a sign around her neck, listing her horrendous anti-social crime.

Go…………….Thailand, its got to be one of the reasons I live here. Never a dull day!

[zzaa09]

What? No mobile phone cradled between her shoulder and ear too?

That would be too easy.

It's a well known fact that one drives better with the proverbial mobile distraction.