Making A Noise That No One Hears Or Cares About

[changraider]

I'm actually very surprised at the level of knowledge of Thai history and politics that a few of the members here have - it's much deeper than I would expect from expats. What I find really offensive is the sneering superior attitudes that are often expressed against Thais in these political threads. Most of my Thai friends under 40 have bachelor's degrees, some have master's degrees too; they work in professional jobs. Their parents are mostly farmers who love their land, they start at 5 and finish at 10 pm. None of them are the simple dupes that some here like to portray. I'd like to write at greater length, but I'm on my mobile. Have a good day.

[gregb]

Very well. You are correct. I do know little of history that long ago. My parents were still in grade school at that point. Anything before the 80's doesn't seem modern to me, but I should not have blithely said "80 years" when I had no idea if that was true. Mea culpa.

Now, having gotten that out of the way, I fail to see why the fact that there may have been as bad or worse cretins in the past means that the current cretin is not someone to be worried about. If I had been around in 1957 I would probably have been stating my opinion just as loudly as I am today.

The uprising last year tells me people are willing to take up arms over this, and as soon as a revered person passes away that threat becomes serious. There are many people who are refraining right now out of respect. And whether or not this has happened before does not mean the tragedy would be any less serious if it happened today.

Since I wasn't here then ONLY today matters to me. Why would you have such a problem understanding that?

You probably should read a bit more to find out just what the Thai people are willing to put up with and have always put up with. I don't have a problem understanding you. It is why someone wrote a long time ago "those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it." At a minimum you should read about the coups and why they happened, what was the result and how many people got shot in each one. You should also have some understanding of how financial markets reflect the wisdom of the smart money guys. They are the people who get paid to know. Not always right to be sure but who would you trust, an old expat philander or a PhD from Oxford school of Economics?

Everybody in Germany knows who Hitler was, Phibun was a contemporary of Hitler. Any educated Thai person knows who Phibun was. To have an intelligent discussion of Thai politics one should know at least a little bit about Thai history.

Given that I have never met Phibun or Hitler, but I have met Thaksin and know what kind of a person he is, I'll stick with the risk of repeating history. Perhaps if more people had spoken up vocally about Phibun and convinced the Thais to denounce him then Thailand could have been saved that ugly chapter.

Give me a military junta any day over Thaksin. I won't say nobody could be worse than Thaksin, but there are very, very few who could rise to that level.

In any case, it won't be me who decides if there is civil war or not. Let's wait until the revered someone dies and then see how events pan out.

Cowboy said it in an earlier post, I was only trying to reassure you that everything will be OK.

The Farang have about as much political power in Thailand as the Thai people which is mainly placebo democracy. Take a pill have an election and then things are pretty much as they have always been. There have been 20 or so coups since 1932. There have been no real attempts at the formation of a democratic government. So that is 20 to 0. You get a new government and a new constitution and if the powers that be get what they want that government stays in power for a while.

What I find amazing is that the amount of Thais that vote without being paid to do so and that Farangs get emotionally involved in arguments about Thai politics.

I can understand wanting to understand Thai politics and trying to figure out what will happen in the future but from a point of view of an observer.

How could any rational Farang observer get emotionally involved? Wouldn't you have to be a little nuts? It is like getting upset because the sun is shining to bright or it is raining.

So are Farangs in Thailand who get involved emotionally in Thai politics mentally deranged?

Is a person who gets distraught or angry about things that he has no way of altering a nut case?

If you saw a guy outside shaking his fist and the rain and cursing the clouds what would you think?

I have been personally affected by Thaksin. I lost my job in part because of him.

Let's say someone rapes your daughter, and then everyone else around you says "we don't care about you or the injustices done to you, because he gave us money and other free stuff." Wouldn't you be just a bit miffed about the situation, even if you knew there was little if anything you could do about it? Wouldn't you at least try to explain to these people why what they are doing is hurtful and spiteful?

You may not understand it, but the emotional involvement is very real to me. Given that I cannot do anything about the situation, I choose to voice my opinion on this forum. It may have no effect, but it makes me feel better. Perhaps you should cut the guy a little slack who is cursing at the clouds. Thaksin hurts real people, even if he hasn't yet hurt you. To me, he is not a theoretical.

[changraider]

Greg, can you say how you lost yr job? I can understand if the answer's no, because sympathy is in short supply on TV!

[kerryk]

...

Wouldn't you have to be a little nuts?

...

So are Farangs in Thailand who get involved emotionally in Thai politics mentally deranged?

...

Is a person who gets distraught or angry about things that he has no way of altering a nut case?

...

Your list of rhetorical questions clearly imply you would answer in the affirmative.

So now we can add media pop psychiatrist to your rapidly expanding list of impressive self-appointed qualifications.

If you were to respond to any information in my posts I think I would feint. Does your style of personality assassination rather than factual debate win you many friends and influence people? It makes no difference if I am a psychiatrist or a philanthropist except if you are the kind of person who is impressed with titles and not thoughts. Try looking past your personal feelings about me. I am not like you, and I don't agree with you. However that does not mean I am wrong. The last time I put up with a "your momma" response to a reasonable argument I think I was in 2nd grade. Try reading my post and responding to the points I made.

[Jingthing]

Try looking past your personal feelings about me.

At this point, sorry, I really can't. Not all of us are robots or think there is no role for emotions.

[zzaa09]

I'm actually very surprised at the level of knowledge of Thai history and politics that a few of the members here have - it's much deeper than I would expect from expats.

On the contrary, a simple observation might suggest just the opposite.

It's not that deep or extensive.

[changraider]

I'm actually very surprised at the level of knowledge of Thai history and politics that a few of the members here have - it's much deeper than I would expect from expats.

On the contrary, a simple observation might suggest just the opposite.

It's not that deep or extensive.

In your haste to prove your professed misanthropy your eyes seem to have skipped over the rider in my quote. Is your avatar Iggy Pop, can't see too clearly on this mobile phone display. My Little China Girl, what a song, saw him and Bowie perform it together in London.

[kerryk]

Try looking past your personal feelings about me.

At this point, sorry, I really can't. Not all of us are robots or think there is no role for emotions.

Most reasonable adults are able to control their emotions. It is one of the milestones of leaving childhood behind. I have noticed you have a tendency to intellectually stamp your foot and cry when you are proved wrong which happens quite frequently as many of your opinions are minority views.

I spent the day with Thai people today at the mall. I rarely speak with any Farang. The mall was crowded with happy people spending money in upscale stores and eating at upscale restaurants. No talk of politics, full employment and rampant consumerism.

As much as I like Pattaya I think it produces a stilted view of Thailand. I think you are a product of that view. I see the same thing with those Farang who are cloistered in Bangkok. My views are a reflection of what I see and politics is not very important to the average middle class working executive or academic. As long as the trains run close to on time everything is OK.

You are an excitable rabble rouser trying to kick up some bleeding heart emotion where there is none. Thailand is fine and has been for 80 years. The same folks are running the show and the train is not going to be derailed even by you. If they didn't break a sweat in 97 when there were some real problems now is really not a problem. Crying wolf by a Farang is really a useless and counter productive pastime. And if you can't refrain from flaming me stop posting till you gain some semblance of balance.

[geriatrickid]

One would do well to review the past activities of foreigners in Asia to understand why a few people are sensitive to the aspirations and sentiments of the local population. The French, Dutch and English thought their presence was an integral part of the viability of indochine, Indonesia, Burma, Singapore and China, but they found out that the locals had other ideas. I grew up with the stories of colonial excesses, privileges, and insurrections of China that had endured the presence of foreigners for a long time. The similarities between the views expressed between some TVFers and the old folks that had been expelled from China is striking. The references to corruption, to the perception that the locals just don't have the same abilities or intelligence of the foreigners are the same.

I don't expect some people to understand my comment, but perhaps the English and Dutch folk that had family living in these parts will undersand my point.

[473geo]

There is a great capacity on this forum for some to seize on a negative regarding a topic, elevate it to the fore and subsequently not see past it.........

I think the comparative phrase I would use in your comment about the man waving at the clouds Kerryk.......

Is.....a row of men standing pissing into the wind.......

[Jingthing]

Try looking past your personal feelings about me.

At this point, sorry, I really can't. Not all of us are robots or think there is no role for emotions.

Most reasonable adults are able to control their emotions. It is one of the milestones of leaving childhood behind. I have noticed you have a tendency to intellectually stamp your foot and cry when you are proved wrong which happens quite frequently as many of your opinions are minority views.

I spent the day with Thai people today at the mall. I rarely speak with any Farang. The mall was crowded with happy people spending money in upscale stores and eating at upscale restaurants. No talk of politics, full employment and rampant consumerism.

As much as I like Pattaya I think it produces a stilted view of Thailand. I think you are a product of that view. I see the same thing with those Farang who are cloistered in Bangkok. My views are a reflection of what I see and politics is not very important to the average middle class working executive or academic. As long as the trains run close to on time everything is OK.

You are an excitable rabble rouser trying to kick up some bleeding heart emotion where there is none. Thailand is fine and has been for 80 years. The same folks are running the show and the train is not going to be derailed even by you. If they didn't break a sweat in 97 when there were some real problems now is really not a problem. Crying wolf by a Farang is really a useless and counter productive pastime. And if you can't refrain from flaming me stop posting till you gain some semblance of balance.

Oh my. The f-rang judge has spoken! Yet another role for the wondrous man above it all. Better not even think about politics anymore, it might disturb someones trip to the mall.

More seriously, let's break that bizarre text down to size.

1. If you incorporate any emotion at all into your world view, you must be irrational and your opinion about anything is worthless. Wow!

2. If you don't hang out with well off Thais shopping at malls all day, you don't know the score. That is the real Thailand! Not all the rest of it.

3. People in Bangkok and Pattaya have no idea. We can ignore the opinions of all those people.

4. Politics doesn't interest the people I know, nor me, so that means I sit in harsh judgment of people who are interested in it. I know best. They are all wasting their time. They need to shop at malls more.

5. Psychobabble personal insults of me, playing his pop shrink role again, he clearly likes that one.

6. Thailand has always been no problems! No problems now! You are hysterical for thinking you see any problems. Take a train, shop for something, you'll see.

7. Then he suggests my motive here is to DERAIL something here which is an obvious falsehood. That kind of serious unfounded charge is not appreciated.

Dude, let's agree to not communicate further for the good of humanity. OK?

Edited September 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[473geo]

Number three has some legs........but then....... would that not make the rest of the post.......

[kerryk]

I have been personally affected by Thaksin. I lost my job in part because of him.

Let's say someone rapes your daughter, and then everyone else around you says "we don't care about you or the injustices done to you, because he gave us money and other free stuff." Wouldn't you be just a bit miffed about the situation, even if you knew there was little if anything you could do about it? Wouldn't you at least try to explain to these people why what they are doing is hurtful and spiteful?

You may not understand it, but the emotional involvement is very real to me. Given that I cannot do anything about the situation, I choose to voice my opinion on this forum. It may have no effect, but it makes me feel better. Perhaps you should cut the guy a little slack who is cursing at the clouds. Thaksin hurts real people, even if he hasn't yet hurt you. To me, he is not a theoretical.

You are comparing losing your job to raping your daughter!

[StreetCowboy]

...

Dude, let's agree to not communicate further for the good of humanity. OK?

Hear, Hear!

SC

[kerryk]

Try looking past your personal feelings about me.

At this point, sorry, I really can't. Not all of us are robots or think there is no role for emotions.

Most reasonable adults are able to control their emotions. It is one of the milestones of leaving childhood behind. I have noticed you have a tendency to intellectually stamp your foot and cry when you are proved wrong which happens quite frequently as many of your opinions are minority views.

I spent the day with Thai people today at the mall. I rarely speak with any Farang. The mall was crowded with happy people spending money in upscale stores and eating at upscale restaurants. No talk of politics, full employment and rampant consumerism.

As much as I like Pattaya I think it produces a stilted view of Thailand. I think you are a product of that view. I see the same thing with those Farang who are cloistered in Bangkok. My views are a reflection of what I see and politics is not very important to the average middle class working executive or academic. As long as the trains run close to on time everything is OK.

You are an excitable rabble rouser trying to kick up some bleeding heart emotion where there is none. Thailand is fine and has been for 80 years. The same folks are running the show and the train is not going to be derailed even by you. If they didn't break a sweat in 97 when there were some real problems now is really not a problem. Crying wolf by a Farang is really a useless and counter productive pastime. And if you can't refrain from flaming me stop posting till you gain some semblance of balance.

Oh my. The f-rang judge has spoken! Yet another role for the wondrous man above it all. Better not even think about politics anymore, it might disturb someones trip to the mall.

More seriously, let's break that bizarre text down to size.

1. If you incorporate any emotion at all into your world view, you must be irrational and your opinion about anything is worthless. Wow!

2. If you don't hang out with well off Thais shopping at malls all day, you don't know the score. That is the real Thailand! Not all the rest of it.

3. People in Bangkok and Pattaya have no idea. We can ignore the opinions of all those people.

4. Politics doesn't interest the people I know, nor me, so that means I sit in harsh judgment of people who are interested in it. I know best. They are all wasting their time. They need to shop at malls more.

5. Psychobabble personal insults of me, playing his pop shrink role again, he clearly likes that one.

6. Thailand has always been no problems! No problems now! You are hysterical for thinking you see any problems. Take a train, shop for something, you'll see.

7. Then he suggests my motive here is to DERAIL something here which is an obvious falsehood. That kind of serious unfounded charge is not appreciated.

Dude, let's agree to not communicate further for the good of humanity. OK?

I see our conflict as the heart of the issue. It would be a shame to to dump it just because it upsets you.

You and I are 180 degrees apart on a couple of basic points that can, if discussed calmly and unemotionally, be a help to long term Farang residents of Thailand.

I live in the industrial East coast of Thailand with a Thai engineer. Her friends work for Thai and multinational oil, gas and steel companies. My friends are academics who own and manage trade schools in three cities also on the East coast. I am not involved in any way shape or form with Farangs or the tourist trade. I am isolated from Farangs except for Thai Visa.

You are saying that Thailand is on the brink of civil war. I am saying that Thailand is no where near civil war and it is business as usual. Am I correct in stating your position?

If you are correct and Thailand is on the brink of civil war certainly Farangs need to react. There needs to be drastic changes in lifestyle and business decisions and the shape and intent of the new government needs to be divined. I think your voice is harmful and similar to one chanting the sky is falling. But if your are correct and the sky is falling it definitely needs to be heard.

The positive aspect of Farang discussing Thai politics is forewarning of coming political disasters. The negative aspect is scaring Farang of imaginary coming political disasters.

[thaibeachlovers]

Most forums warriors have a bug up their ass about Thaksin because he threatened the expat beer bar nightlife with his crackdown. So most of the angst can be traced back to that. Most expats probably don't care though it's just something for some people to talk about while they sip a cold one at the stool with other self proclaimed "old hands" who want to pretend they are relevant.

What! When did t threaten the expat beer bar nightlife?

Purachai (at one point deputy pm in thaksins reign) did try to clamp down on nightlife but it was not aimed specifically at farang, and didn't really get very far because he was banging his head against a brick wall of police ownership etc.

Further, suggest you do another analysis of the posts from the mostly non-Thai contributors to TVF. Many write posts with details of laws, links (not always easy to find) etc etc. Somehow I don't think this is your average girlie bar stool warmer.

You might like to also remember that plenty of foreigners living here have Thai wives (not bar girls) and children born here in Thailand. I have children and grand children born here, they are my life, I have great concerns for their future and I therefore reserve the right to comment.

Major change in BKK as far as tolerance of nude dancing.

Anyone that thinks purachai's campaign didn't change much obviously didn't go to GoGos much!

It never was as good again as before.

[changraider]

One would do well to review the past activities of foreigners in Asia to understand why a few people are sensitive to the aspirations and sentiments of the local population. The French, Dutch and English thought their presence was an integral part of the viability of indochine, Indonesia, Burma, Singapore and China, but they found out that the locals had other ideas. I grew up with the stories of colonial excesses, privileges, and insurrections of China that had endured the presence of foreigners for a long time. The similarities between the views expressed between some TVFers and the old folks that had been expelled from China is striking. The references to corruption, to the perception that the locals just don't have the same abilities or intelligence of the foreigners are the same.

I don't expect some people to understand my comment, but perhaps the English and Dutch folk that had family living in these parts will undersand my point.

Agreed GK. My Irish father gave me a very good education in the inequities of colonialism. You probably know that the English built a fence around Dublin - the "pale" - to separate themselves from the Irish (hence the expression "beyond the pale"). Seems to me that a huge number of expats in this country have constructed something similar in their heads, that's their loss.

[Jingthing]

You are saying that Thailand is on the brink of civil war. I am saying that Thailand is no where near civil war and it is business as usual. Am I correct in stating your position?

No. You are not correct. This is what you do. You are trying to drive the debate based on your fictional imposed structure of an argument. It's a narrative I won't fall for and don't accept. Don't try to "prove" that is what I meant. I am telling you now you are wrong. Accept it and move on. Please stop writing posts directed at me personally along with your abrasive psychobabble insults. How many times do I need to request that from you? I am serious now -- you have gone way beyond annoying. We have nothing further to discuss. I would like to post to the board about political events and issues when I wish, as I feel others should if they wish. Whether your judgmental presumptions of the reasons that we post meets your personal rigid DOGMA about why and when people should or should not discuss Thai politics is YOUR problem.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

You are saying that Thailand is on the brink of civil war. I am saying that Thailand is no where near civil war and it is business as usual. Am I correct in stating your position?

...I am telling you now you are wrong. Accept it and move on. Please stop writing posts directed at me personally along with your abrasive psychobabble insults. ....

Pots and kettles, mate. If you can't see that, try putting the mirrored sunglasses on the other way.

He might have a better grip of your position if you stated it clearly and succinctly in unemotive terms.

My apologies for joining in, but I am just trying to avoid conflict and pour oil on troubled waters. Its what we do in Thailand (they, rather). And then if that doesn't work, put a match to it.

SC

[Jingthing]

You are saying that Thailand is on the brink of civil war. I am saying that Thailand is no where near civil war and it is business as usual. Am I correct in stating your position?

...I am telling you now you are wrong. Accept it and move on. Please stop writing posts directed at me personally along with your abrasive psychobabble insults. ....

Pots and kettles, mate. If you can't see that, try putting the mirrored sunglasses on the other way.

He might have a better grip of your position if you stated it clearly and succinctly in unemotive terms.

My apologies for joining in, but I am just trying to avoid conflict and pour oil on troubled waters. Its what we do in Thailand (they, rather). And then if that doesn't work, put a match to it.

SC

Well you did. That isn't even the main point and I also suggest people read that comment in full context. The main point is we have ONE poster, not a mod, who has taken it on himself to try to dictate to everyone else about when and why all of us should post about Thai politics. That is unacceptable. I have asked him to stop directing any political posts at me, because we are oil and water and our talking further is only asking for trouble. I hope he agrees and people feel free to discuss Thai politics for whatever reason they want. Edited September 5, 2011 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

You are saying that Thailand is on the brink of civil war. I am saying that Thailand is no where near civil war and it is business as usual. Am I correct in stating your position?

...I am telling you now you are wrong. Accept it and move on. Please stop writing posts directed at me personally along with your abrasive psychobabble insults. ....

Pots and kettles, mate. If you can't see that, try putting the mirrored sunglasses on the other way.

He might have a better grip of your position if you stated it clearly and succinctly in unemotive terms.

My apologies for joining in, but I am just trying to avoid conflict and pour oil on troubled waters. Its what we do in Thailand (they, rather). And then if that doesn't work, put a match to it.

SC

Well you did. That isn't even the main point and I also suggest people read that comment in full context. The main point is we have ONE poster, not a mod, who has taken it on himself to try to dictate to everyone else about when and why all of us should post about Thai politics. That is unacceptable. I have asked him to stop directing any political posts at me, because we are oil and water and our talking further is only asking for trouble. I hope he agrees and people feel free to discuss Thai politics for whatever reason they want.

Normally when someone tells me not to do something, I look at their uniform, and on that basis, ignore them or not. I see little point in arguing, and even as I write this, I am feeling guilty about moving this to the top of my recent posts... Anyway, if you insist on scratching, don't be surprised if it turns into a scab, or worse, gets infected. You might want to put a cover on it, to make it easier to ignore

SC

[nocturn]

You might like to also remember that plenty of foreigners living here have Thai wives (not bar girls) and children born here in Thailand. I have children and grand children born here, they are my life, I have great concerns for their future and I therefore reserve the right to comment.

Indeed. A pointed conclusion that can't be avoided.

The related familial connections and relevant irons in the fire.

good lord man are you verbose

[IanForbes]

Oh, I thought this topic was about farting in bed while you are alone.

Carry on...

[Jingthing]

Oh, I thought this topic was about farting in bed while you are alone.

Great idea and a much more useful topic indeed!

[thaibeachlovers]

One would do well to review the past activities of foreigners in Asia to understand why a few people are sensitive to the aspirations and sentiments of the local population. The French, Dutch and English thought their presence was an integral part of the viability of indochine, Indonesia, Burma, Singapore and China, but they found out that the locals had other ideas. I grew up with the stories of colonial excesses, privileges, and insurrections of China that had endured the presence of foreigners for a long time. The similarities between the views expressed between some TVFers and the old folks that had been expelled from China is striking. The references to corruption, to the perception that the locals just don't have the same abilities or intelligence of the foreigners are the same.

I don't expect some people to understand my comment, but perhaps the English and Dutch folk that had family living in these parts will undersand my point.

I don't think you can include Singapore in the above. It didn't really exist as a nation till the British came and developed it.

History of Singapore ( abreviated )

1613, Portuguese raiders burnt down the settlement at the mouth of Singapore River and the island sank into obscurity

Raffles arrived in Singapore on 29 January 1819 and found a small Malay settlement, with a population of a few hundred, at the mouth of the Singapore River

By 1821, the island's population had gone up to around 5,000

[David006]

I wonder how many foreign national expat websites in Britain have heated debates about David Cameron and Ed Miliband.

Yet, hasn't it been Western tradition to comment, opine, write about affairs across the seas?

Few Americans have any idea that so many Brits and Aussies hate them. It is a shock when they start reading Thai Visa.

And why do say that??..Americans and their way of life has, if anything, had a major positive impact on Europe and Australia and indeed the world...is that what we are supposed to "hate".

Europe made a killing during their civil war and then they baled Europe out ( manpower,weaponry, fuel, food etc)in WW1 and WW2...they are not perfect by any stretch but the world would be a sadder and way less developed place without the US. ( one must not forget the US is made upof Euros ,Asians,South Americans,Africans etc....!)

NO I am not a US citizen! Just like to give credit where it is due.....

[StreetCowboy]

I wonder how many foreign national expat websites in Britain have heated debates about David Cameron and Ed Miliband.

Yet, hasn't it been Western tradition to comment, opine, write about affairs across the seas?

Few Americans have any idea that so many Brits and Aussies hate them. It is a shock when they start reading Thai Visa.

And why do say that??..Americans and their way of life has, if anything, had a major positive impact on Europe and Australia and indeed the world...is that what we are supposed to "hate".

Europe made a killing during their civil war and then they baled Europe out ( manpower,weaponry, fuel, food etc)in WW1 and WW2...they are not perfect by any stretch but the world would be a sadder and way less developed place without the US. ( one must not forget the US is made upof Euros ,Asians,South Americans,Africans etc....!)

NO I am not a US citizen! Just like to give credit where it is due.....

I think that the negative opinions that so many Brits and Aussies espouse regarding Americans would be much more credible if they did not have so many American friends.

"But they're different..."; in fact, its strangers we dislike, and Americans are easily-recognised strangers whom we tend to meet often, and we can easily recognise their accent at a great distance.

I'm the same with English people.

I was sat in a hotel room and I heard some noise outside and thought immediately "English louts" - had they been German, or French, or any other nationality, I would not have recognised the accent so readily and would have thought only "louts!"

SC

[weary]

When an expatriate has a politics-related brain fart on an anonymous Internet forum, is it accompanied by an actual cerebral haemorrhage IRL?

[Jingthing]

When an expatriate has a politics-related brain fart on an anonymous Internet forum, is it accompanied by an actual cerebral haemorrhage IRL?

Gosh darn, I hope not, but perhaps this should be posted in the health forum?

[zzaa09]

I don't think you can include Singapore in the above. It didn't really exist as a nation till the British came and developed it.

History of Singapore ( abreviated )

1613, Portuguese raiders burnt down the settlement at the mouth of Singapore River and the island sank into obscurity

Raffles arrived in Singapore on 29 January 1819 and found a small Malay settlement, with a population of a few hundred, at the mouth of the Singapore River

By 1821, the island's population had gone up to around 5,000

How lovely. A capsule of Eurocentric historic reflection towards the region. The standard, I'm sure.