Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[SteeleJoe]

You are missing one crucial element, the Chinese and Thai systems deny that the stories accusations attached to Mao or Ann Leonowens are true. I have never understood being offended by the truth, but then some have a lot to lose if enough people know the truth.

Germany doesn't deny the holocaust occurred.

Your central point is a valid one. However:

Not only Thais deny the accuracy of Leonowens' account -- so do any historians of note or even a person with any but a superficial knowledge of Siamese/Thai history in general and/or the specific topic. Moreover the films and play went even further in their distortions. (It is not the truth that is offensive in this instance. It is an insulting and extremely inaccurate portrayal of a revered figure and ridiculous distortion of circumstances that are also implicitly demeaning and bigoted. It's a great story but it's not only not even close to true, it couldn't have been true without the person in question and the culture he was apart of being very different.)

[SteeleJoe]

Why is anyone surprised?-- In February 1942 I stood to attention in the school playground to hear the list of those expupils from the school who had been killed or wounded fighting against the Germans and the Japanese -- at the end the headmaster announced that Siam had declared war on the side of the Japanese against Great Britain but that we would be victorious

The Thais declared war in January.

But if you can remember that assembly after nearly 70 years, I think you can be forgiven for being off by a few days!

Maybe they didn't tell the headmaster straight away.

Maybe the point of the assembly was the listing of the sacrifices by former pupils, and the announcement of Siam joining the war was not the highlight.

SC

Indeed.

[MaxYakov]

Actually I did watch this strange move in English about a past famous Portuguese or Spanish explorer that was instrumental in Thai history but can't remember much more even though I found it interesting enough to see it twice.

Won't go off on a lengthy off topic tangent but that would be Constantine Phaulkon (who later became Chao Phraya Wichayen -- Chao Phya was an extremely high rank in the Royal Court) . He was Greek.

It wouldn't have been off topic at all if he'd been German ... or Jewish or wore kinky uniforms. Did he have any influence on Siam financial matters, by any chance?

Edited September 29, 2011 by MaxYakov

[funcat]

I can remember seeing a Swastika badge on the shirt of a BTS station cashier/clerk a few months ago. You can see them on bags , T-shirts, Even on the painted company buses that are everywhere, Clearly WW2 was something missing from the ciriculum in Thailand

The swastika is a religious symbols, don't mix it up with the nazi swastika. See the link in my earlier post.

I haven't read every post in this long thread, but wanted to reiterate what Mario, and possibly others have said. The swastika is a symbol meant to denote good, which unfortunately was, and sometimes still is, used by people who are anything but good.

Here is the link that Mario provided at the beginning of this thread, please do read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The swastika has been around for at least 2,600 years. It can be found on the earliest Greek coins, dated to circa 625 BC. It is also found on 1500 year old coins from what is now S.E. Asia. For almost all of its history, the swastika has enjoyed a good reputation. You can see merchants today in India drawing swastikas on the ground in front of their shops to bring good luck to the day's business.

I also have seen what look like nazi style swastika armbands on people in Thailand. In every case I felt that the people were wearing their swastika as people have done in Asia for thousands of years, and that is with good intent. I have also seen Thais wearing shirts and being clueless as to what the English words printed on them mean. Sometimes it's humorous, sometimes embarrassing, and sometimes it's downright vulgar.

...It's been tens of post about this already....the SWASTIKA displayed at the school was NAZI swastika !!!!...got it ??!!!...there is a difference :jap::jap::jap:

[Jingthing]

I bet nothing of the sort will happen. It will be completely brushed under the carpet, that is my prediction.

Good bet but also a great bet you won't be seeing another Nazi parade at that particular school. I also doubt the administrators there get the problem and are instead blaming foreigners for meddling in Thai affairs.

[StreetCowboy]

...Not only Thais deny the accuracy of Leonowens' account -- so do any historians of note or even a person with any but a superficial knowledge of Siamese/Thai history in general and/or the specific topic. Moreover the films and play went even further in their distortions. (It is not the truth that is offensive in this instance. It is an insulting and extremely inaccurate portrayal of a revered figure and ridiculous distortion of circumstances that are also implicitly demeaning and bigoted. It's a great story but it's not only not even close to true, it couldn't have been true without the person in question and the culture he was apart of being very different.)

I struggle to believe that Rogers & Hammerstein strayed from the strictest interpretation of facts. Bloody revisionists. (I hope I can say that under the EU Directives) (private joke)

I really enjoy this forum, and its proximity, on the next tab of my browser, to Wikipedia (bloody revisionists). I was delighted to read about Anna Leonowens, and the heroism of her family in the service of the crown. And the affront suffered by Caernarfon when it was revealed that the town was adopted to avoid embarrassment. The irony of it!

Anyway, complain all you want, its better than mutton dressed as lamb.

Having said that, if its prepared and dressed well, mutton can be more tasty and takes a bit of spice better.

SC

[lannarebirth]

I largely agee with you, but it's an educational institution, yes? Are you suggesting they were educated wrongly but it's no big deal or that even if they attach some greater meaning to it it's still no big deal? If you were paying for that education for your child would you find this a good outcome? Just askin'

I have 2 boys previously educated at Pattana school in BKK, now living in UK to avoid the inanities of the Thai educational system....

If they experienced the subject of this thread I don't think it would be very difficult to explain and make them understand the incorrectness.

I repeat, it's no big deal. unless one is intent on making it a big deal.

Seems there are many here who are.

Just answering.........

I'm not making it a big deal. My sympathies lay with the students. While it's not a great school. many parents scrimped and saved to send their children there thinking it was better than a standard education available at the average Thai school. Maybe only the costumes are better, huh?

I bet they now will be getting a better lesson in WWII / Hitler than most any other lower school in Thailand.

I think you are probably right Nisa. They probably think all we farang are "bah" as well.

[richard_smith237]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here. I think everyone is in agreement that for millennia the Swastika has been used as symbol of peace, adopted by a Nazi regime and as such became synonymous with mass genocide.

Whether or not the pupils know this or should have known this is also irrelevant. They can be forgiven for innocent ignorance.

The potential fail is that the teachers (Thai or / and Western) were aware of these plans. A group of school kids were dressing up as an army of soldiers for a public display.

The issue I see is the huge failure on the part of those supervising to recognise this huge fail. Are we taking things too far in a 38 page thread? Not really, this is a valid discussion of many differing opinions.

What worries me is not that kids in Thailand don't know and may not be educated about WW2, Nazi's and other events in Europe and the consequent global effect, but that those in charge and tasked with the responsibility of the education of our children are either so ignorant or lazy enough to chose to ignore this. Having not read the full thread I may be mistaken, however I suspect that no one individual took the responsibility to deal with this situation head on and prevent a minor P.R. train wreck.

To me, this is not a big deal. But for some members of this forum it is and out of respect for them and others I hope we (as people) have the intelligence to recognise and handle the situation appropriately when such a blunder approaches. I don't however hope of such standards from teachers, I expect them. Of course, we will all 'drop the ball' and make innocent mistakes, which is when an apology is appropriate.

Lets not all turn into a bunch of politically correct group huggers though, individuality and mistakes have their merits when we learn from them.

[SteeleJoe]

Anyway, complain all you want, its better than mutton dressed as lamb.

Having said that, if its prepared and dressed well, mutton can be more tasty and takes a bit of spice better.

SC

I don't particularly care about the play or the movies' inaccuracies -- as I said it's a great story and I enjoyed the Rodgers and Hammerstein version on the stage and on film. I am not complaining, I just wanted to point out that contrary to what the poster thought, this is not a case of the Thais denying , concealing, or being offended by the truth.

[siamiam]

I can remember seeing a Swastika badge on the shirt of a BTS station cashier/clerk a few months ago. You can see them on bags , T-shirts, Even on the painted company buses that are everywhere, Clearly WW2 was something missing from the ciriculum in Thailand

The swastika is a religious symbols, don't mix it up with the nazi swastika. See the link in my earlier post.

I haven't read every post in this long thread, but wanted to reiterate what Mario, and possibly others have said. The swastika is a symbol meant to denote good, which unfortunately was, and sometimes still is, used by people who are anything but good.

Here is the link that Mario provided at the beginning of this thread, please do read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The swastika has been around for at least 2,600 years. It can be found on the earliest Greek coins, dated to circa 625 BC. It is also found on 1500 year old coins from what is now S.E. Asia. For almost all of its history, the swastika has enjoyed a good reputation. You can see merchants today in India drawing swastikas on the ground in front of their shops to bring good luck to the day's business.

I also have seen what look like nazi style swastika armbands on people in Thailand. In every case I felt that the people were wearing their swastika as people have done in Asia for thousands of years, and that is with good intent. I have also seen Thais wearing shirts and being clueless as to what the English words printed on them mean. Sometimes it's humorous, sometimes embarrassing, and sometimes it's downright vulgar.

...It's been tens of post about this already....the SWASTIKA displayed at the school was NAZI swastika !!!!...got it ??!!!...there is a difference :jap::jap::jap:

I wasn't commenting on the school incident, but rather the incident in the post that I quoted. You did read that, didn't you??!!

That also was a nazi style armband, but found in a different context (without any additional WWII era paraphernalia).

I have seen Thais wearing nazi style swastika armbands in the same good intent that their pre-WWII ancestors would have. The same intent as I described in my previous post. In effect, that is what they told me.

[StreetCowboy]

Anyway, complain all you want, its better than mutton dressed as lamb.

Having said that, if its prepared and dressed well, mutton can be more tasty and takes a bit of spice better.

SC

I don't particularly care about the play or the movies' inaccuracies -- as I said it's a great story and I enjoyed the Rodgers and Hammerstein version on the stage and on film. I am not complaining, I just wanted to point out that contrary to what the poster thought, this is not a case of the Thais denying , concealing, or being offended by the truth.

My apologies, I realise I was mixing two points in one post (quart in a pint pot)

I was having a go at people who complain about school children dressing up.

I once dressed up as a witch, but I don't believe in black magic.

SC

If I was trying to get people to follow my wishes, I would explain slowly, carefully and politely the negative consequences of what they were doing now, and how they would benefit from following a different course of action that I could offer.

If I wanted to assuage my own ill-feelings of weak inadequacy, I would go off the deep end about how wrong they were. Especially if other people joined in.

SC

[funcat]

I bet nothing of the sort will happen. It will be completely brushed under the carpet, that is my prediction.

Good bet but also a great bet you won't be seeing another Nazi parade at that particular school. I also doubt the administrators there get the problem and are instead blaming foreigners for meddling in Thai affairs.

You bet,you will not see this kind of display again in this school...but,I'll bet,that something like this will happened again...somewhere else,simply because non of the "right scholars" will be aware of this tread...and will do it again...mi pen dri..:jap:

Edited September 29, 2011 by funcat

[katana]

Another pic in Khaosod.

http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_news.php?newsid=TUROd01ERXdPREk1TURrMU5BPT0=&sectionid=TURNd01RPT0=&day=TWpBeE1TMHdPUzB5T1E9PQ==

[SteeleJoe]

Similarly I wonder how many Europeans and Americans know without googling what Hitler's real name was - Adolf Schecklegrueber.

That wasn't Hitler's "real name". His father's surname was originally Schicklgruber -- his mother surname as he was illegitimate. He changed it -- years before his son ASdolf was born -- to match that of his probable biological father who had eventually married his mother.

Adolf Hitler was born a Hitler.

Don't need to Google. Just rad a decent biography or two (Toland perhaps).

[StreetCowboy]

PREVIOUS QUOTES

The swastika is a religious symbols, don't mix it up with the nazi swastika. See the link in my earlier post.

...

I haven't read every post in this long thread, but wanted to reiterate what Mario, and possibly others have said. The swastika is a symbol meant to denote good, which unfortunately was, and sometimes still is, used by people who are anything but good.

Here is the link that Mario provided at the beginning of this thread, please do read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The swastika has been around for at least 2,600 years. It can be found on the earliest Greek coins, dated to circa 625 BC. It is also found on 1500 year old coins from what is now S.E. Asia. For almost all of its history, the swastika has enjoyed a good reputation. You can see merchants today in India drawing swastikas on the ground in front of their shops to bring good luck to the day's business.

I also have seen what look like nazi style swastika armbands on people in Thailand. In every case I felt that the people were wearing their swastika as people have done in Asia for thousands of years, and that is with good intent. I have also seen Thais wearing shirts and being clueless as to what the English words printed on them mean. Sometimes it's humorous, sometimes embarrassing, and sometimes it's downright vulgar.

....

...It's been tens of post about this already....the SWASTIKA displayed at the school was NAZI swastika !!!!...got it ??!!!...there is a difference :jap::jap::jap:

...

I wasn't commenting on the school incident, but rather the incident in the post that I quoted. You did read that, didn't you??!!

That also was a nazi style armband, but found in a different context (without any additional WWII era paraphernalia).

I have seen Thais wearing nazi style swastika armbands in the same good intent that their pre-WWII ancestors would have. The same intent as I described in my previous post. In effect, that is what they told me.

ENDQUOTES

I think anyone that tells you a points-clockwise 45 degree black swastika in a white circle on a red background is a sanskrit symbol of beneficent meaning is being duplicitous.

Especially when combined with Nazi uniforms and pictures of Hitler.

One would assume that they said this because they were mortified at the offence that they had caused, and like the Israeli embassy, we should have the tact, diplomacy and dignity to let it lie, on record or not as we see fit.

SC

[siamiam]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here.

No, not to level headed people like you. I can best illustrate my concern with an example: Right after the attacks of 9-11 had taken place, a man was shot and killed in Arizona. He was a Sikh man who had gone out in public right after the attacks, wearing his religious 'turban'. Regarding that incident, I was asked "what kind of an idiot mistakes a Sikh for a Muslim and then kills him?" I answered: "an angry one"

[StreetCowboy]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here.

No, not to level headed people like you. I can best illustrate my concern with an example: Right after the attacks of 9-11 had taken place, a man was shot and killed in Arizona. He was a Sikh man who had gone out in public right after the attacks, wearing his religious 'turban'. Regarding that incident, I was asked "what kind of an idiot mistakes a Sikh for a Muslim and then kills him?" I answered: "an angry one"

What kind of person kills a stranger because they are angry?

Where I come from, that would be considered horrific

SC

[siamiam]

I think anyone that tells you a points-clockwise 45 degree black swastika in a white circle on a red background is a sanskrit symbol of beneficent meaning is being duplicitous.

Especially when combined with Nazi uniforms and pictures of Hitler.

SC

If combined with other paraphernalia, then yes I would agree. But otherwise, The 45 degree swastika is what I have seen on ancient coins, etc. Swastikas on red backgrounds can be seen in religious contexts. As far as the white circle goes, I can't say for sure if the armbands I was commenting on had them. In any event, without the additional paraphernalia, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[SteeleJoe]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here.

No, not to level headed people like you. I can best illustrate my concern with an example: Right after the attacks of 9-11 had taken place, a man was shot and killed in Arizona. He was a Sikh man who had gone out in public right after the attacks, wearing his religious 'turban'. Regarding that incident, I was asked "what kind of an idiot mistakes a Sikh for a Muslim and then kills him?" I answered: "an angry one"

What kind of person kills a stranger because they are angry?

Where I come from, that would be considered horrific

SC

Well, according to the post -- an angry idiot. (A generous characterization, I'd say).

Everyone where you come from would consider that horrific? Would all of them also consider it horrific if it was in (tragically and obscenely mistaken) response to a traumatic attack and mass murder on their home? Maybe.

I think most people in the US would have seen that incident as horrific as well. I'm certain not all of them did or would.

[funcat]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here.

No, not to level headed people like you. I can best illustrate my concern with an example: Right after the attacks of 9-11 had taken place, a man was shot and killed in Arizona. He was a Sikh man who had gone out in public right after the attacks, wearing his religious 'turban'. Regarding that incident, I was asked "what kind of an idiot mistakes a Sikh for a Muslim and then kills him?" I answered: "an angry one"

:realangry::jap:

[StreetCowboy]

I think anyone that tells you a points-clockwise 45 degree black swastika in a white circle on a red background is a sanskrit symbol of beneficent meaning is being duplicitous.

Especially when combined with Nazi uniforms and pictures of Hitler.

SC

If combined with other paraphernalia, then yes I would agree. But otherwise, The 45 degree swastika is what I have seen on ancient coins, etc. Swastikas on red backgrounds can be seen in religious contexts. As far as the white circle goes, I can't say for sure if the armbands I was commenting on had them. In any event, without the additional paraphernalia, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I suppose one mark of an adult is someone who is willing to accept that he does not need to argue with people who do not share his opinion. I believe the right-facing points are distinctive, but on the other hand, the person wearing the emblem may not be aware of that distinction. While doing my 15-second research I noted that the Wikipedia entry for "Swastika" notes that it is seen as a Nazi symbol in western cultures. Having said that, Nazi German uniforms are presumably seen as symbols of Nazi Germany worldwide, so that point was irrelevant to my earlier discussion.

Perhaps one of the great learning opportunities from this event is the understanding that Western European culture has its roots in far deeper and more remote origins, and that we are the children of other worlds as much as we are the mentors of their children. No-one seems to have picked up on my first learning opportunity, so perhaps that was a lesson that we are not yet ready to learn

SC

[siamiam]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here.

No, not to level headed people like you. I can best illustrate my concern with an example: Right after the attacks of 9-11 had taken place, a man was shot and killed in Arizona. He was a Sikh man who had gone out in public right after the attacks, wearing his religious 'turban'. Regarding that incident, I was asked "what kind of an idiot mistakes a Sikh for a Muslim and then kills him?" I answered: "an angry one"

What kind of person kills a stranger because they are angry?

Where I come from, that would be considered horrific

SC

Yes, it would be by most people. That is why the person who killed that Sikh man was charged with murder. My point is that it only takes one person to do something horrific like that. So, in my mind, it is relevant to discuss how a swastika is thought of and used by different peoples. I know how violent some people could become in seeing a nazi swastika armband on the sleeve of a Thai person who might be wearing it for a very different reason.

[SteeleJoe]

I think anyone that tells you a points-clockwise 45 degree black swastika in a white circle on a red background is a sanskrit symbol of beneficent meaning is being duplicitous.

Especially when combined with Nazi uniforms and pictures of Hitler.

SC

If combined with other paraphernalia, then yes I would agree. But otherwise, The 45 degree swastika is what I have seen on ancient coins, etc. Swastikas on red backgrounds can be seen in religious contexts. As far as the white circle goes, I can't say for sure if the armbands I was commenting on had them. In any event, without the additional paraphernalia, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I suppose one mark of an adult is someone who is willing to accept that he does not need to argue with people who do not share his opinion. I believe the right-facing points are distinctive, but on the other hand, the person wearing the emblem may not be aware of that distinction. While doing my 15-second research I noted that the Wikipedia entry for "Swastika" notes that it is seen as a Nazi symbol in western cultures. Having said that, Nazi German uniforms are presumably seen as symbols of Nazi Germany worldwide, so that point was irrelevant to my earlier discussion.

Perhaps one of the great learning opportunities from this event is the understanding that Western European culture has its roots in far deeper and more remote origins, and that we are the children of other worlds as much as we are the mentors of their children. No-one seems to have picked up on my first learning opportunity, so perhaps that was a lesson that we are not yet ready to learn

SC

I've had the discussion about the Svastika vs Swastika for about 20 years now' posted something already here and it's been done to death on this thread but one last time (?) because I have such high regard for SC's posts:

The Svastika was used facing both directions by Jains and Hindus and others.

Edited September 29, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[nocturn]

Personally, I found 'Inglorious basterds' a movie that should never have been made - it was that bad IMO.

I doubt many Thais saw any of them.

Well, most film critics including me totally disagree with you! Inglorious basterds is a great film by a great director. It did indeed play in Thai theaters and when I saw it here it was definitely doing well. However, it is NOT the film to watch for a historical background of WW2. It is purely entertainment. I sure am glad it's not you in charge of what movies get the green light.

http://rogerebert.su.../908199995/1023

http://www.rottentom...rious_basterds/

i thought it was <deleted> too

[MaxYakov]

timestamp='1317314028' post='4731965']

[quote name=katana'

Another pic in Khaosod.

http://www.khaosod.c...HdPUzB5T1E9PQ==

Google translate of the final paragraph of the lengthy article accompanying the Khaosod pic. The article included the full text of the Director's apology email/letter, in Thai, of course:

Mr. Chin Bhumirat Secretary-General of Basic Education (Kpฐ.), the seminar declaring that the history of each country. Sensitive in the body. Whether it is ethnic politics, so when this happens. Basic Education Commission (Spฐ.) to enjoin the school encourages students to learn the history of science, especially the ethnic groups. The case history of Nazi conflict. Or its leader, Adolf Hitler would have to explain the pros and cons as well. By following the expression of students. Must be in the care of teachers. They might see only the outer shell. Or as a fashion look. Do not see what the expression to the feelings of anyone. This is a lesson to schools across the country have charged a lot of catching up. It's much closer to ASEAN. We will need to be. History of this country as much or even more. Important to know that every story has both advantages and disadvantages. What must be expressed to the extent appropriate.

[StreetCowboy]

The use of the swastika has little relevance here.

No, not to level headed people like you. I can best illustrate my concern with an example: Right after the attacks of 9-11 had taken place, a man was shot and killed in Arizona. He was a Sikh man who had gone out in public right after the attacks, wearing his religious 'turban'. Regarding that incident, I was asked "what kind of an idiot mistakes a Sikh for a Muslim and then kills him?" I answered: "an angry one"

What kind of person kills a stranger because they are angry?

Where I come from, that would be considered horrific

SC

Yes, it would be by most people. That is why the person who killed that Sikh man was charged with murder. My point is that it only takes one person to do something horrific like that. So, in my mind, it is relevant to discuss how a swastika is thought of and used by different peoples. I know how violent some people could become in seeing a nazi swastika armband on the sleeve of a Thai person who might be wearing it for a very different reason.

So are you equating the wearing of the swastika with the wearing of the turban?

A friend of mine used to be incensed at people suggesting that women who dressed provocatively were in some way to be blame, or made themselves susceptible to rape, and yet condemned another for parking his car on the Falls Road where it was stolen and possibly used as a bombed booby-trap for the security forces.

You are quite right that what we do increases or reduces our likelihood of becoming a victim, but that in no way reduces the wickedness of the crime. It is a crime to mug old ladies, and no less a crime to mug the most vulnerable as to try and mug the old lady who has an uzi in her handbag. Nor any less of a crime to mug a rich old lady than a poor one.

SC

[nocturn]

I love that the sole male is hovering about 8 inches above the ground.

[siamiam]

So are you equating the wearing of the swastika with the wearing of the turban?

SC

No, not me. But, if there are people that will kill a Sikh man for wearing a religious turban (or for what the turban means to the killer), then I think there are people who would do harm to a man for wearing a religious swastika.

[funcat]

That's all folks...Good Night...see you...eventually...got off truck...this tread.I mean...

[MaxYakov]

I love that the sole male is hovering about 8 inches above the ground.

He must have come into some wealth, able to bury the much more expensive anti-grav elevator shoes. I thought only Tom Cruise could pony up the bucks for those.