Which Part Of History Would You Delete?: Thai Talk

[webfact]

THAI TALK

Which part of history would you delete?

Suthichai Yoon

The Nation

Despite the promise of a more inclusive government after the Pheu Thai Party

Bipartisanship isn't going to be the order of the day. Political appointments as rewards for "services rendered" and reshuffling of government officials based on personal loyalty rather than meritocracy may in fact make any talk of a conciliatory effort even less credible.

Extreme proposals from both sides of the fence could in fact make things worse. Even a sweeping amnesty for both the red and yellow shirts won't reduce mutual suspicion.

Suspicion that every move by the government and its supporters is aimed at helping absolve Thaksin Shinawatra from guilt will intensify the conflict.

The controversial proposal from a group of seven academics of Thammasat University's Law Faculty to "go back to Square One" by nullifying the September 19, 2006 coup and all its subsequent actions is a case in point.

The academics insist with great determination that they are simply campaigning for "people's democracy" and that their move is in no way related to Thaksin.

But critics are quick to point out that the very idea of riding a "time machine" to return to the pre-coup situation and to consider everything related to the putsch null and void has inevitably revived the split in society yet again.

The proposal's very brief concept is to reject the coup as illegal, and therefore legal actions should be taken to arrive at the conclusion that the coup never happened. And that there were no valid subsequent laws to legitimise it.

The pro-government elements welcomed the proposal almost immediately. They suggested that all the agencies set up by the coup-leaders should be retroactively revoked, including the committee that decided to seize Thaksin's assets.

That would automatically mean that all the verdicts by the Constitutional Court and Criminal Court for Holders of Political Position against Thaksin and those concerned must necessarily be cancelled.

Those against the idea attacked the proposal with a vengeance. They argued that the coup, whether we like it or not, was considered - as has been Thailand's political tradition all along - legalised once a new constitution was drawn up, passed by the legislative body and (in this case) even went through a public referendum.

They also contend that if the 2006 coup was to be declared null and void, what about the coups before that one? And if one were to take that line of argument to its logical and legal conclusion, the recent election that put Yingluck Shinawatra in the prime minister's seat would also be considered unconstitutional. That could really turn into a real political mess.

In a sense though, the "extreme" proposal from the "Seven Wise Men" does have its legal logic. If the coup was illegal, undemocratic and set a bad example for military officers with political ambitions, then the latest act of forceful takeover must be dealt with in such a dramatic manner that no armed elements would ever dare think of staging another takeover against a popularly elected government.

But then, one can also argue that you just can't turn the clock back and wave a magic wand to make bad things disappear from the history of the country. The coup, after all, did take place. Bad things did happen. And if another group of people assumes power, they could change things around, and order legal action to be taken against those "illegal acts". But they can't issue laws to make things disappear from the pages of history.

In fact, since the coup-leader is still alive and in fact serving as the leader of a political party, there must be legitimate ways to sue him, send him to court and, in the process, all the bad, illegal things could be exposed. For if we were to declare that nothing happened on September 19 five years ago, how can we then punish the people who staged that illegal coup - if we were serious about wiping out a dirty chapter in the country's political history, that is?

Come to think of it, if we really possessed that magic wand and could go back in time to make certain things disappear from our past, I would rather use it (provided that we could only use it once) to declare that the past five years of severe social conflicts didn't happen at all.

A huge blank in that part of our history would be much more preferable than a period covering half a decade of dangerous, calamitous confrontations.

If things were really that simple.…

-- The Nation 2011-09-29

[lannarebirth]

I just don't get the logic of resetting to pre 2006 coup. If they were ever going to try something like this, 2001 and the judges self admitted false verdict from the assets concealment case would be the natural starting point.

[timekeeper]

SHINAWATRA

[animatic]

SHINAWATRA

Completely erased from the public record.

Sorry you can't control the government, you have no papers.

[Zolt]

Much as I'd like to forget some past events, that's just not how it works. The past is the past, you just have to learn to live with it.

[BigRick]

How about the fact they cooperated with the Japanese during WW2? I am sure that if the US did not step in to stop France(Cambodian land grab) and Britain(Invasion of Singapore) from exacting revenge for their duplicity during WW2 Thailand would not be what it is today. It was a choice of survival because Japan was not exactly know for being kind to countries they conquered but it is a dark chapter in Thai history that has been glossed over many many times. Kind of ironic how they love the Japanese so much but seem to not show the same level of friendliness to other nationals.

[mijan24]

How about the fact they cooperated with the Japanese during WW2? I am sure that if the US did not step in to stop France(Cambodian land grab) and Britain(Invasion of Singapore) from exacting revenge for their duplicity during WW2 Thailand would not be what it is today. It was a choice of survival because Japan was not exactly know for being kind to countries they conquered but it is a dark chapter in Thai history that has been glossed over many many times. Kind of ironic how they love the Japanese so much but seem to not show the same level of friendliness to other nationals.

The co-operation with the Japanese during WW2 is History but if you ask younger Thais they know nothing about the Thai capitulation.

The older Thais know but do not want to revisit that period of their lives (who can blame them).

Once again it's because of knowledge like this and knowledge of world happenings that quite often the Thai hierachy do not like Farangs - they do not want the current generation to be made aware of past attrocities or the possibilities of the future

It is much easier to manipulate a knowledgess society than one with hopes and expectations.

[edgarfriendly]

Once again it's because of knowledge like this and knowledge of world happenings that quite often the Thai hierarchy do not like Farangs - they do not want the current generation to be made aware of past atrocities or the possibilities of the future

It is much easier to manipulate a knowledge-less (ignorant of facts) society than one with hopes and expectations.

EXACTLY!

[pisico]

How about the fact they cooperated with the Japanese during WW2? I am sure that if the US did not step in to stop France(Cambodian land grab) and Britain(Invasion of Singapore) from exacting revenge for their duplicity during WW2 Thailand would not be what it is today. It was a choice of survival because Japan was not exactly know for being kind to countries they conquered but it is a dark chapter in Thai history that has been glossed over many many times. Kind of ironic how they love the Japanese so much but seem to not show the same level of friendliness to other nationals.

You say cooperated?

"On December 8, 1941 in the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese.

On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Sang Phathanothai read over the radio Thailand's declaration of war on the United Kingdom and the United States." (from Wikipedia and other sources)

I have a friend who is a Thai teacher (he is 26 years old) and he was in disbelief when I mentioned this not long ago.

What he learned in high school and the university in Bangkok was that Phibunsongkhram was a general in the Thai army. Nothing more.

He was surprised to know about the declaration of war to the UK and USA.

When I asked him about the origin of Kanchanaburi, he only knew it as a tourist attraction with a temple dedicated to tigers. Not a word is the texts he read about the Death Railway to Burma or the bridge over the river Kwai built by the prisoners (mostly USA and British soldiers) half of whom died from disease, abuse or malnutrition.

He went home and to the library after our conversations and could not find concrete reference in Thai texts relevant to those facts. Therefore, what I pointed out to him could not be true.

Thais are given to rewriting history or deleting what is not convenient for them to remember. Saving face is first and foremost.

Funny thing, this Thai friend is going to Japan to study there for 4 years.

Edited September 29, 2011 by pisico

[BigRick]

I wanted to be as kids gloves as possible about that part of it(Its a crime to mention the wrong things in Thailand) my girlfriend said they never even mentioned it in school and a visit to the National history museum seems to not mention it also. Fortunately the Allies were lenient and honestly with the way the British and French treated their colonial protectorates who could blame the consternation of the Thais. I chalk it up to self preservation Thailand was the only independent country in the region at the time(Not 100%) and were boxed in between British and French interests. It worked out for them in the end because it ushered in the rule of HRM King Bhumibol Adulyadej in 1946. But back to the original subject they really love revisionist history here many of them do not even know the King was born in the US. Thailand is at least very interesting in the Thaicentric way they think. Who else would threaten UNESCO over not getting there way and expect the world body to concede.

[billd766]

How about the fact they cooperated with the Japanese during WW2? I am sure that if the US did not step in to stop France(Cambodian land grab) and Britain(Invasion of Singapore) from exacting revenge for their duplicity during WW2 Thailand would not be what it is today. It was a choice of survival because Japan was not exactly know for being kind to countries they conquered but it is a dark chapter in Thai history that has been glossed over many many times. Kind of ironic how they love the Japanese so much but seem to not show the same level of friendliness to other nationals.

You say cooperated?

"On December 8, 1941 in the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese.

On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Sang Phathanothai read over the radio Thailand's declaration of war on the United Kingdom and the United States." (from Wikipedia and other sources)

I have a friend who is a Thai teacher (he is 26 years old) and he was in disbelief when I mentioned this not long ago.

What he learned in high school and the university in Bangkok was that Phibunsongkhram was a general in the Thai army. Nothing more.

He was surprised to know about the declaration of war to the UK and USA.

When I asked him about the origin of Kanchanaburi, he only knew it as a tourist attraction with a temple dedicated to tigers. Not a word is the texts he read about the Death Railway to Burma or the bridge over the river Kwai built by the prisoners (mostly USA and British soldiers) half of whom died from disease, abuse or malnutrition.

He went home and to the library after our conversations and could not find concrete reference in Thai texts relevant to those facts. Therefore, what I pointed out to him could not be true.

Thais are given to rewriting history or deleting what is not convenient for them to remember. Saving face is first and foremost.

Funny thing, this Thai friend is going to Japan to study there for 4 years.

Actually for every POW there were 3 slave labourers who had a far worse time than the POWs who at least had each other and the discipline and some limited medical assets.

For every POW who died 5 slave labourers died also.

This from Wikipedia

The Burma Railway, also known as the Death Railway, the Thailand–Burma Railway and similar names, is a 415 kilometres (258 mi) railway between Bangkok, Thailand, and Rangoon, Burma (now Yangon, Myanmar), built by the Empire of Japan during World War II, to support its forces in the Burma campaign.

Forced labour was used in its construction. About 180,000 Asian labourers and 60,000 Allied prisoners of war (POWs) worked on the railway. Of these, around 90,000 Asian labourers (mainly romusha) and 16,000 Allied POWs died as a direct result of the project. The dead POWs included 6,318 British personnel, 2,815 Australians, 2,490 Dutch, about 356 Americans and a smaller number of Canadians and New Zealanders.[1]

[jonclark]

How about the fact they cooperated with the Japanese during WW2? I am sure that if the US did not step in to stop France(Cambodian land grab) and Britain(Invasion of Singapore) from exacting revenge for their duplicity during WW2 Thailand would not be what it is today. It was a choice of survival because Japan was not exactly know for being kind to countries they conquered but it is a dark chapter in Thai history that has been glossed over many many times. Kind of ironic how they love the Japanese so much but seem to not show the same level of friendliness to other nationals.

You say cooperated?

"On December 8, 1941 in the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese.

On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Sang Phathanothai read over the radio Thailand's declaration of war on the United Kingdom and the United States." (from Wikipedia and other sources)

I have a friend who is a Thai teacher (he is 26 years old) and he was in disbelief when I mentioned this not long ago.

What he learned in high school and the university in Bangkok was that Phibunsongkhram was a general in the Thai army. Nothing more.

He was surprised to know about the declaration of war to the UK and USA.

When I asked him about the origin of Kanchanaburi, he only knew it as a tourist attraction with a temple dedicated to tigers. Not a word is the texts he read about the Death Railway to Burma or the bridge over the river Kwai built by the prisoners (mostly USA and British soldiers) half of whom died from disease, abuse or malnutrition.

He went home and to the library after our conversations and could not find concrete reference in Thai texts relevant to those facts. Therefore, what I pointed out to him could not be true.

Thais are given to rewriting history or deleting what is not convenient for them to remember. Saving face is first and foremost.

Funny thing, this Thai friend is going to Japan to study there for 4 years.

Actually for every POW there were 3 slave labourers who had a far worse time than the POWs who at least had each other and the discipline and some limited medical assets.

For every POW who died 5 slave labourers died also.

This from Wikipedia

The Burma Railway, also known as the Death Railway, the Thailand–Burma Railway and similar names, is a 415 kilometres (258 mi) railway between Bangkok, Thailand, and Rangoon, Burma (now Yangon, Myanmar), built by the Empire of Japan during World War II, to support its forces in the Burma campaign.

Forced labour was used in its construction. About 180,000 Asian labourers and 60,000 Allied prisoners of war (POWs) worked on the railway. Of these, around 90,000 Asian labourers (mainly romusha) and 16,000 Allied POWs died as a direct result of the project. The dead POWs included 6,318 British personnel, 2,815 Australians, 2,490 Dutch, about 356 Americans and a smaller number of Canadians and New Zealanders.[1]

I had a discussion about this (The Thai deaths during WW2) with my father in law. When I asked him why he thought there was no memorial for those Thais who died under occupation he replied - They did nothing for Thailand (so don't deserve recognition) - Different mentality and priorities I'm afraid.

[fxe1200]

I would delete the entire era back to Rama IV, may be that would haven given Thailand a chance, to develop an easier language to learn and not only by foreigners.

[pisico]

I would delete the entire era back to Rama IV, may be that would haven given Thailand a chance, to develop an easier language to learn and not only by foreigners.

Erasing Phibunsongkhram's changes to Thailand works for me.

Edited September 29, 2011 by pisico

[fxe1200]

I would delete the entire era back to Rama IV, may be that would haven given Thailand a chance, to develop an easier language to learn and not only by foreigners.

Erasing Phibunsongkhram's changes to Thailand works for me.

Lets delete both!!

[plumeria]

Hey, the Texas Board of Education is doing exactly the same thing as Thai editors of history.

It's no different.

How many Americans know Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen?

How many Americans know the pretext for the Vietnam War was totally bogus and untrue?

How many Americans know what actually happened on 9/11?

How many Americans understand there were no WMD in Iraq?

How many Americans know Bin Laden actually died long ago?

It just goes on and on and on. Maybe only the Internet and programs like TOR will enable people to get around the spin doctors and learn more facts about history and present.

But only if people are seeking the truth.

And how many people are doing that?

It never ceases to amaze me when I hear (almost daily and in so many words): "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up."

Like the time in Nongkhai a taxi driver was going to open my head with a tire iron because I said Buddha was born in India.

The truth is a dangerous thing.

[Card]

Hey, the Texas Board of Education is doing exactly the same thing as Thai editors of history.

It's no different.

How many Americans know Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen?

How many Americans know the pretext for the Vietnam War was totally bogus and untrue?

How many Americans know what actually happened on 9/11?

How many Americans understand there were no WMD in Iraq?

How many Americans know Bin Laden actually died long ago?

It just goes on and on and on. Maybe only the Internet and programs like TOR will enable people to get around the spin doctors and learn more facts about history and present.

But only if people are seeking the truth.

And how many people are doing that?

It never ceases to amaze me when I hear (almost daily and in so many words): "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up."

Like the time in Nongkhai a taxi driver was going to open my head with a tire iron because I said Buddha was born in India.

The truth is a dangerous thing.

Well, you obviously don't deal with facts. Where are your facts here, rather than inuendo, especially regarding Bin Laden's death and 9/11? Oh, and the Buddha was born in Lumbini in Nepal. No wonder u got attacked with a tire iron. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing; conspiracy theories even more so.

[Thai at Heart]

I wouldn't want to delete any of them. Then the country would make even less sense. At least the way it is today, we can go back in time somewhere and find out which plonker decided to make the decision that effects today.

[DaamNaam]

Erase the night Toksins mamma and papa conceived him.

[SteeleJoe]

I have a friend who is a Thai teacher (he is 26 years old) and he was in disbelief when I mentioned this not long ago.

What he learned in high school and the university in Bangkok was that Phibunsongkhram was a general in the Thai army. Nothing more.

That simply can not be true.

Field Marshal Plaek Pibunsongkhram was a major figure in Thai history for a decade before and after WWII. He served as PM twice (1938 to 1944 and 1948 to 1957) and was one of the key leaders that led Siam from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional one. He was one of the most powerful people ever in this country and one the people who shaped the history of Thailand even without his alliance with the Japanese.

EDIT:

Just re-read your post: you've got your facts about Kanchanaburi well off too.

Not a word is the texts he read about the Death Railway to Burma or the bridge over the river Kwai built by the prisoners (mostly USA and British soldiers) half of whom died from disease, abuse or malnutrition.

He went home and to the library after our conversations and could not find concrete reference in Thai texts relevant to those facts. Therefore, what I pointed out to him could not be true.

1) The origin of Kanchanaburi has nothing to do with WWII.

2) The Americans were the fewest in number among the POWs.

3) Far more Asian laborers were used and died than POWs.

4) There are concrete references to it in Thai libraries.

Edited September 30, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

Fortunately the Allies were lenient...

It was the US that made sure leniency prevailed. The British (in particular and understandably) were no so inclined.

[Roadman]

I just don't get the logic of resetting to pre 2006 coup. If they were ever going to try something like this, 2001 and the judges self admitted false verdict from the assets concealment case would be the natural starting point.

I could not agree more.

And they wonder why thugs and thievies are now running amok with Thailands governance.

[flying]

Well, you obviously don't deal with facts. Where are your facts here, rather than inuendo, especially regarding Bin Laden's death and 9/11?

That sword cuts both ways

Edited September 30, 2011 by flying

[flying]

....dbl post

Edited September 30, 2011 by flying

[Johnniey]

Well, you obviously don't deal with facts. Where are your facts here, rather than inuendo, especially regarding Bin Laden's death and 9/11? Oh, and the Buddha was born in Lumbini in Nepal. No wonder u got attacked with a tire iron. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing; conspiracy theories even more so.

Actually the Buddha was born in Lumpini, India.

The border has changed since the time of the Buddha.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Johnniey

[Pedzie]

Nothing to do with Thailand....

But I would delete the whole EU episode in human history, and remind the EU commission that national socialism didn't work for Adolf Hitler :-)

Edited September 30, 2011 by Pedzie