Farewell Thailand. I Miss You Already.

[saroq]

I've been through the same thing a number of times. It's human nature not to appreciate what you have until you don't have it. My advice - keep breathing in and out on a regular basis and continue to put one foot in front of the other. Attend to what has to be attended to and make a plan that will enable you to come back asap. That's what I've always done and it's always worked.

[mrdome]

I hope the OP can return soon and in better health than when he left. Asia is addictive (to some of us) while others won't touch the place with a barge pole (several of them being my relatives).

[farang000999]

what business opportunities are there going to be in the USA warpspeed? do you realize how efficient and cashed up all the american conglomerates are these days? what is it that you think you will be able to slip into that does not already have a company with 1000 locations nationwide?

Your post reminds me of the man who was in charge of the US Patent Office who said, over 100 years ago, "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

inventions are harder to come by these days. i am not saying that it will be impossible to find some previously unseen business or business strategy in the USA, just saying that it would seem to me that business in the USA is much more competitive. if anything there are more open opportunities in Thailand.almost anything you can think of in the USA has already been thought of and is being sold/produced/serviced at very low profit margins. in a bad economy, yikes!

the homeless in the USA are increasing rapidly.

Edited October 16, 2011 by farang000999

[WarpSpeed]

what business opportunities are there going to be in the USA warpspeed? do you realize how efficient and cashed up all the american conglomerates are these days? what is it that you think you will be able to slip into that does not already have a company with 1000 locations nationwide?

Farang I'm not going to open my plans up to ridicule, negativity nor potential competition from those lacking vision or determination, no one elses opinion on the matter carries any weight since they can only speak from their personal experience on what THEY'VE been able to accomplish. I know what I know but I can assure you having lived through and prospered in EVERY past financial downturn that was devastating for the average folk, that my plans, preparation and visions are sound and practical..

The real estate market is a buyers market and for the right price also a sellers market there are plenty of people there raking in the money in this economy if they're vested in the right areas and able to move across various barriers.. Many people also who are buying up in this real estate market by cashing in on some paid off paid down property into houses they could have never owned before.. There is cycling going on and many who had better vision saw this coming and prepared for it and to be able to take advantage of it..

Don't be fooled, only those without a plan or flexibility to move into different directions because they are singularly educated or experienced in a single field and opposed to or unable to change because they've limited themselves are the primary ones suffering..

Here you can't even get a job without a permit and someones permission and even those are severely limited by law, there is no such limitations back home for either beginning a business or getting a job..

The OP moved back because he could generate finances and take care of his medical so I guess he had some idea that was the answer as well..

[jeanelie]

Goodluck rideswings, you merit your Shangri-La. Make yourself strong again. People with your spirit are welcome everywhere.

[WarpSpeed]

what business opportunities are there going to be in the USA warpspeed? do you realize how efficient and cashed up all the american conglomerates are these days? what is it that you think you will be able to slip into that does not already have a company with 1000 locations nationwide?

Your post reminds me of the man who was in charge of the US Patent Office who said, over 100 years ago, "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

Excellent!!! Only if one limits their creativity and inspiration..

[WarpSpeed]

Thailand always made me feel special, now its back to being Mr. Normal again.

I think I found the real reason why you like it here - for a period you suddenly was somebody.

And there is that too, I admit myself I'm going to miss that but also with that some of it also places a target on you so I'll miss it only briefly as I won't limit myself to being "Mr. Normal" I'll set myself apart and stand out, it's up to the person to carve out their own niche whether here or there..

[WarpSpeed]

Completely agree, making my way back before the feces hits the fan.. At least I hope so in light of this flooding.. And there are opportunities of a lifetime back home for the entrepreneurial spirit with motivation and determination.. You just need to carve your niche so put your head down and get to it..

I have to disagree. Inflation is going to hit the West just as bad as Thailand. A little pension will still go further here in Thailand. And "health problems"...you want to pay USA prices for health care/health insurance premiums! And what about the ever increasing loss of personal freedoms in the US and UK. And now they are beating the war drums for an Israel/US hit on Iran...if that happens I don't want to be in the USA. I'll take my chances here in Phuket.

You can do that it's your prerogative but I'm not retired and still healthy it's cheaper there in almost every aspect versus quality here especially for the high ticket items and I have children, the cost for a decent school here is prohibitive and often substandard so it's not even close to a wash..

Do you have personal freedom to own property here? No you have "freedom" to make other people rich off your back. And there is still a long way to go before the personal freedoms you claim are lost there and to eclipse what is not even granted to foreigners here, like having to report every 90 days for example as if I was a parolee. You can't LOSE freedoms you don't have in the first place that's the only reason you take notice of some losses back home, because you take them for granted but here they never even existed..

Try speaking candidly about certain people here and see where that gets you? Or what about the control and censorship of the Internet and TV?? Yeah it's much more liberal here ..

Yes I've always said it's cheaper to live in the USA if you want to live a high roller life style with Ferraris and yachts mainly because of protectionist import taxes in Thailand. About the only high end thing cheaper here that I know of is housing.

ABout censorship, loss of freedoms, etc.....that's something I don't talk about in public forums.

Completely over-dramatized, high roller lifestyle in deed ..Just buying used cars is massively cheaper with virtually unlimited choices, houses you buy comes with land you own and can pass on to your family for generations or whatever no limitations on businesses or employment except the ones you place on yourself.

I'm not 10 years old nor am I disconnected or naive I've been there and done that and all the blinkered negativity in the world is not going to dissuade me as I've faced that down my entire life and moved forward to success much to the naysayers dismay..

[WarpSpeed]

I've been through the same thing a number of times. It's human nature not to appreciate what you have until you don't have it. My advice - keep breathing in and out on a regular basis and continue to put one foot in front of the other. Attend to what has to be attended to and make a plan that will enable you to come back asap. That's what I've always done and it's always worked.

That's exactly how I see it too.. It swings both ways, but good for him if he can use his desire to get back here as his motivation to better health and prosperity we all need that in life and everyone's is different and no less valid..

[WarpSpeed]

what business opportunities are there going to be in the USA warpspeed? do you realize how efficient and cashed up all the american conglomerates are these days? what is it that you think you will be able to slip into that does not already have a company with 1000 locations nationwide?

Your post reminds me of the man who was in charge of the US Patent Office who said, over 100 years ago, "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

inventions are harder to come by these days. i am not saying that it will be impossible to find some previously unseen business or business strategy in the USA, just saying that it would seem to me that business in the USA is much more competitive. if anything there are more open opportunities in Thailand.almost anything you can think of in the USA has already been thought of and is being sold/produced/serviced at very low profit margins. in a bad economy, yikes!

the homeless in the USA are increasing rapidly.

Yep Columbus or was it actually Zheng He should have never left his shores .. Just because you don't see the opportunities doesn't mean they don't exist and all I've heard from farangs in business here is that the competition is too fierce to start up businesses and then you have to worry about tea money eventually if yours becomes successful, it's far too easy to step on someones toes here.

Sift through some threads here and see how many people say don't invest more then you're willing to loose... That's not exactly a glowing endorsement and if you think making a success of it here is easier then back home you're in for a serious reality check and I have some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell ya...

Edited October 16, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[angeledge]

I am someone who trust that in life, nothing happen for nothing. There is a meaning on what is happenning to you and i guess this is probably on making you understand how happy and free we are in thailand. I wish you good luck for the future and, of course, get better and come back soon.

[rideswings]

Thanks for all the positive notes. Im making a plan that might allow me to return to Thailand in 2014 or 2015 and after reading the post from a fellow subscriber, "Best age to retire in Thailand 50, 55 or 60" I am trying to take some of that advice.

Edited October 16, 2011 by rideswings

[angeledge]

Rideswing, catch me for a beer when you are back

[GrahamF]

I gotta ask, what happened to the op's wife, I seem to remember the op posting something about a wife previously. Are the wife/gf the same or am I thinking of someone else?

[rideswings]

Thanks Angel. By that time, I hope my finances will allow me to afford to say "this ones on me."

Rideswing, catch me for a beer when you are back

Edited October 17, 2011 by rideswings

[wotaplonker]

I think the best part is escaping the neoliberal capitalist mechanisms of producing the docile, productive, fearing subject. Its inanane architecture points out the winners (the docile, productive ones) and the losers (those with lives).

I feel privileged to have escaped it since becoming an adult. But it still amazes me that TV members go to inordinate lengths to big up their-- neoliberal-defined-- status. Their full-time jobs since retirement are status anxiety and reputational damage control.

So, while the OP, vaguely speaks of the "relaxed people", I think this is what he might be grasping at. As an economist recently said: manufacturing is not an area of competitive advantage for the Thais. Or in my language, the Thais don't behave as the neoliberal capitalist demands. Or on the other hand, maybe he just means they really are relaxed people...

I feel privileged at my lengthy time in Thailand.

Didn't understand a word of that, but your happy, so, cool.

I can understand how you feel. A deep point can require certain concepts that if unfamiliar can leave the reader bewildered.

I think the core points are understanding the concept of a neoliberal regime. This concept is the notion that there is a specific way of doing that has developed in recent times that is associated with the free flow of finance.

This regime pushes the costs onto the individual persons. So, for example, each and every person must be made to be concerned with their health, the risks they take, their financial provisions. This way of pushing responsibilities down the chain allows more profit further up the chain.

The Anglo-Saxon settler states (the USA/Canada/ Australia/UK etc.) are the prime examples of this logic.

The ideal worker is docile-- they work long hours expecting little reward and without complaint-- they are productive-- they work a lot-- and they are fearing-- they must be constantly worred about what happens if they fall sick/retire/lose their jobs/get in a car crash, and so on.

The society is put in place that encourages these ways of thinking. Although the typical liberal view is to imagine the laws of democracies as to be basically negative-- you can do something unless we say otherwise-- in fact, the sheer quantity of legislation that infests life in these advanced economies, is intended to shoehorn every person (lets call them subjects) into this one life.

The Thai life cannot be described as a success from this regime's point of view. The subjects just don't make good factory workers. It follows they have no "competitive advantage" in this area (*this term is a technical term widely used in economics). So they are a 'failure' by this viewpoint. And many of the farangs living in Thailand are similar 'failures'.

But I point out the tendency of farang on this forum to almost desperately set themselves out as 'winners' despite the definition being defined by such a nasty regime.

Now this is complex. Look to the work of Ong (at UCLA, I think) for more on this notion of an anthropological analysis of Neoliberalism, and for the productive,docile subject read some Foucault.

i recall in one of the amazing Adam Curtiss documentaries suggesting the UK government interference/legislation etc

than in the old iron curtain states such as East Germany

[chops]

I'd hate to go back to america. The place is shot, finished, done, over. Not a very pleasant place to live anymore.

A day living on street food and fan rooms here is far better than a day in the land of prisons/no opportunities/fat people.

[chops]

I think the best part is escaping the neoliberal capitalist mechanisms of producing the docile, productive, fearing subject. Its inanane architecture points out the winners (the docile, productive ones) and the losers (those with lives).

I feel privileged to have escaped it since becoming an adult. But it still amazes me that TV members go to inordinate lengths to big up their-- neoliberal-defined-- status. Their full-time jobs since retirement are status anxiety and reputational damage control.

So, while the OP, vaguely speaks of the "relaxed people", I think this is what he might be grasping at. As an economist recently said: manufacturing is not an area of competitive advantage for the Thais. Or in my language, the Thais don't behave as the neoliberal capitalist demands. Or on the other hand, maybe he just means they really are relaxed people...

I feel privileged at my lengthy time in Thailand.

Any chance of a English Translation,of the above?

What he is trying to say is that people who follow effectively the capitalist system of existing are no more than bit parts in a machine, who then spend the rest of their lives justifying their existence and their "wasted lives" in his elitist view. We products of capitalist societies are mere pawns as he sees it.

By dint, people who follow a more Agrarian ( ie agricultural based, barter and self sufficient system ) are in a way more superior as they don't go chasing the benefits of capitalist progress. This is the kind of philosophical left wing garbage promulgated by elitist snobs of a certain type and vintage. They use these terms to try and prove they are superior to the rest of us with their psychobabble.

Here is the reality, capitalism has been the greatest left wing instrument in human history, and it will continue to be so for evermore. People throughout the world have been lifted from squalor and pain in immense numbers by capitalism. Here in Thailand, where absolute poverty is still rife in many areas, there are people accessing basic health care services which were unheard of 30 years ago. Many of these medications have been researched, invented and produced by major capitalist companies such as Smithkline Beecham, who after an agreed period of protection of their patent, so that they can recuperate their money, then release the patent and allow generic copies of their drugs to be made cheaply, hence helping the poorest people in the world.

People like the guy that posted this garbage have their place, their is nothing wrong in preaching a gospel of agrarian existence, however!! once they choose to use language that is unintelligible to many they are no longer preaching but boasting and boosting their own feelings of superiority. These guys feel most at home amongst the uneducated of the world hence why they hide in the hills of Thailand, where they will find solace in not having to justify their arguments to other worldly wise people.

There is an oft quoted any many attributed anecdote which goes along the lines of this ................. a journalist asks a Japanese businessman which language is the most important in the world, to which he replied " My customers".

Quite simply, if your words cannot be understood, then they are worthless.

I think quite a few people could understand gaccha quite easily, perhaps those who didn't read it twice or three times for clarification are not in his customer base?

I'm not sure he/she is espousing the agrarian way of life however , simply more of a less consumer/productivity based way and measurement of life and satisfaction in life. You can have a perfectly happy and functioning economic system, with associated manufacturing, without having to resort to constant productivity increases, nor having to resort to agrarian society.

Surely it is a stretch to suggest that capitalism has been the greatest left wing instrument in human history?

No it is not a stretch, it is amazing the amount of people that think that capitalism is a right wing instrument. It is anything but. The Scottish economist Adam Smith is recognized as being the first to explain " The Wealth of Nations ", which indicated a mechanism for international trade. He envisaged a capitalist system with a moral sentiment sewn into the fabric. He lived to regret seeing some of the effects of greed that had pervaded some early beneficiaries of the trading mechanisms he had proposed. He thought that wealthy men would use there money for charitable purposes, and was disgusted to see them using money for self promotion.

So charity was at the root of his thoughts, and many 19th century barons did use their money to set up hospitals, libraries and the like. The Industrial Revolution was the real beginning of capitalism for many lower class workers in the UK. Opportunities arose and wealth started to spread across British society, demand for new trades sprang up and many people dragged themselves out of the agricultural setting into vibrant new towns and cities. There has been a surge towards urbanization throughout the world ever since.

What's the point? For thousands of years the only wealthy people were the people who owned the land, as the produce of the land was the only real wealth in the world. Millions of people spent their lives in servitude and poverty all throughout the world. The explosion in capitalism introduced millions of non-agriculture based jobs and cut the link between work and servitude.

The real success of capitalism has come as it has appealed to human nature, the majority of people throughout history have looked for self improvement. Capitalism has moved the vast majority of people in Western societies away from lives of abject poverty, and in most cases, ( believe it or not ) even the poorest people in Western societies can access education, health care and welfare that was unthinkable even in the lifetime of many Thaivisa members.

Capitalism then equalizes people throughout the world. For decades ships were built in the UK, cars in the US. Out of the blue the Japanese got their act together and started to produce more reliable and economical cars than the US could, and the American consumer started to buy them in their millions. South Korea then became a centre of excellence in ship building, and in the last 40 years it has moved from an agrarian economy to a world technological leader at astonishing speed. The Chinese are now reaping the benefits of capitalism as their cheap labour has undone many western manufacturers, while having the effect of removing millions of " peasants " from abject poverty into being self sufficient land owners and business people. The next countries to benefit in a major way will be India and Vietnam amongst others.

The working man in the UK and the US are now starting to suffer as foreign capitalist based competition is either obliterating their industries or undoing their living standards. These same working men then walk into Walmart or Primark and buy cheaply made Chinese clothing and Vietnamese shoes, go to the bar and complain about their drop in living standards. While living standards in the West are dropping, living standards in the developing countries are soaring. Why? Because capitalism is searing across the planet giving people opportunities and lifting people out of poverty.

Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other socio-economic policy in the history of human kind, and I would suggest to you that this makes it by far and away the most significant left wing instrument ever.

Did you really believe capitalism was a right wing tool?

I don't believe Chinese are causing our living standards to drop. Countries like Switzerland and Germany are very rich and have high wages. So why is this just happening to the US & UK? I think it is because the leadership in those particular countries don't give a hoot about the working man. That's why.

[Ulysses G.]

Countries like Switzerland and Germany are very rich and have high wages. So why is this just happening to the US & UK?

How about Greece, Spain, Ireland and Italy? I would hazard a guess that it is more about having a majority of citizens with a strong work ethic.

[thaibeachlovers]

Sorry, had to remove the post to which I was replying because the quotes don't match, but it was #108

I can't follow the post by chops because the quote boxes are removed, but to the poster saying that capitalism has lifted millions out of servitude. It may have done so, but it has also condemned more millions to servitude to provide the cheap goods on which the western way of life depends.

We only have the good life because workers in other countries have little.

If everyone on the planet had the same lifestyle as we do, how long would the world's resources last- not long!

So if you are advocating that capitalism is a moral system, raising people's living standards, I would agree, but only as it affects us. It leaves behind more people than it helps, and so is basically immoral.

Before anyone says that I shouldn't live in it then- I try not to as much as possible.

Edited October 17, 2011 by thaibeachlovers

[transam]

Sorry, had to remove the post to which I was replying because the quotes don't match, but it was #108

I can't follow the post by chops because the quote boxes are removed, but to the poster saying that capitalism has lifted millions out of servitude. It may have done so, but it has also condemned more millions to servitude to provide the cheap goods on which the western way of life depends.

We only have the good life because workers in other countries have little.

If everyone on the planet had the same lifestyle as we do, how long would the world's resources last- not long!

So if you are advocating that capitalism is a moral system, raising people's living standards, I would agree, but only as it affects us. It leaves behind more people than it helps, and so is basically immoral.

Before anyone says that I shouldn't live in it then- I try not to as much as possible.

Your right, and for sure the world will go full circle and shit will happen. Communism didn't and doesn't work, what's next ? Where has the money gone that the ''rich'' have made. I don't know. Investors having a good time, throwing cash away ? Or not perhaps realizing what they have.

[gregb]

Sorry, had to remove the post to which I was replying because the quotes don't match, but it was #108

I can't follow the post by chops because the quote boxes are removed, but to the poster saying that capitalism has lifted millions out of servitude. It may have done so, but it has also condemned more millions to servitude to provide the cheap goods on which the western way of life depends.

We only have the good life because workers in other countries have little.

If everyone on the planet had the same lifestyle as we do, how long would the world's resources last- not long!

So if you are advocating that capitalism is a moral system, raising people's living standards, I would agree, but only as it affects us. It leaves behind more people than it helps, and so is basically immoral.

Before anyone says that I shouldn't live in it then- I try not to as much as possible.

Even beyond this, modern capitalism has replaced all those who it liberated from extreme poverty with a dependence on exosomatic energy instead...specifically fossil fuels and petroleum in particular. Remove this source of exosomatic energy, and the way of life "capitalism" has developed dies an ignoble death very rapidly.

Since we have now passed through the peak of the oil curve and for the next few centuries will see energy and economic decline, all those that previously had their standard of living raised will be returned to the abject poverty they knew before. The only difference is, the social structures that used to be present a few hundred years ago to support them will not be there.

So I reject the notion that capitalism is a moral system. It has granted a temporary reprieve against poverty for some people, only to subject them or their descendants to even more extreme poverty later. All of this so a very few can be wealthy without responsibility. Say what you will about aristocratic feudal landowners. Some were good, and some were evil, but they all had a responsibility towards their peasants. Failure to honor their obligations lowered their social standing in society. There is no such balance for capitalism, which will see the wealthy disavowing all concern for those who are being impoverished as we slide into the collapse of our global industrial civilization due to energy depletion.

Modern capitalism is a doomed, anachronistic construct which will soon be confined to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

[gregb]

Sorry, had to remove the post to which I was replying because the quotes don't match, but it was #108

I can't follow the post by chops because the quote boxes are removed, but to the poster saying that capitalism has lifted millions out of servitude. It may have done so, but it has also condemned more millions to servitude to provide the cheap goods on which the western way of life depends.

We only have the good life because workers in other countries have little.

If everyone on the planet had the same lifestyle as we do, how long would the world's resources last- not long!

So if you are advocating that capitalism is a moral system, raising people's living standards, I would agree, but only as it affects us. It leaves behind more people than it helps, and so is basically immoral.

Before anyone says that I shouldn't live in it then- I try not to as much as possible.

Your right, and for sure the world will go full circle and shit will happen. Communism didn't and doesn't work, what's next ? Where has the money gone that the ''rich'' have made. I don't know. Investors having a good time, throwing cash away ? Or not perhaps realizing what they have.

My personal leaning is towards distributism. It seemed to work well during the Middle Ages after the Roman Empire collapsed. Since the coming dark age is likely to be somewhat similar, I think a model such as this would be appropriate.

[Ulysses G.]

Modern capitalism is a doomed, anachronistic construct which will soon be confined to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

What a party-pooper.

[canuckamuck]

Sorry, had to remove the post to which I was replying because the quotes don't match, but it was #108

I can't follow the post by chops because the quote boxes are removed, but to the poster saying that capitalism has lifted millions out of servitude. It may have done so, but it has also condemned more millions to servitude to provide the cheap goods on which the western way of life depends.

We only have the good life because workers in other countries have little.

If everyone on the planet had the same lifestyle as we do, how long would the world's resources last- not long!

So if you are advocating that capitalism is a moral system, raising people's living standards, I would agree, but only as it affects us. It leaves behind more people than it helps, and so is basically immoral.

Before anyone says that I shouldn't live in it then- I try not to as much as possible.

The poor are there, there have always been poor people and no historical economic system has changed this fact. For the poor to be cared for and led into opportunities requires compassion and morality not economic theory. Here is the truth: the common denominator which overbalances/destroys all economic system is human greed. Find a cure for greed and you will have your Utopian system.

That being said, communism has a record of total failure; the same is not true of capitalism.

[rott]

I think the best part is escaping the neoliberal capitalist mechanisms of producing the docile, productive, fearing subject. Its inanane architecture points out the winners (the docile, productive ones) and the losers (those with lives).

I feel privileged to have escaped it since becoming an adult. But it still amazes me that TV members go to inordinate lengths to big up their-- neoliberal-defined-- status. Their full-time jobs since retirement are status anxiety and reputational damage control.

So, while the OP, vaguely speaks of the "relaxed people", I think this is what he might be grasping at. As an economist recently said: manufacturing is not an area of competitive advantage for the Thais. Or in my language, the Thais don't behave as the neoliberal capitalist demands. Or on the other hand, maybe he just means they really are relaxed people...

I feel privileged at my lengthy time in Thailand.

Well that's easy for you to say.

[JSixpack]

Even beyond this, modern capitalism has replaced all those who it liberated from extreme poverty with a dependence on exosomatic energy instead...specifically fossil fuels and petroleum in particular. Remove this source of exosomatic energy, and the way of life "capitalism" has developed dies an ignoble death very rapidly.

Since we have now passed through the peak of the oil curve and for the next few centuries will see energy and economic decline, all those that previously had their standard of living raised will be returned to the abject poverty they knew before. The only difference is, the social structures that used to be present a few hundred years ago to support them will not be there.

So I reject the notion that capitalism is a moral system. It has granted a temporary reprieve against poverty for some people, only to subject them or their descendants to even more extreme poverty later. All of this so a very few can be wealthy without responsibility. Say what you will about aristocratic feudal landowners. Some were good, and some were evil, but they all had a responsibility towards their peasants. Failure to honor their obligations lowered their social standing in society. There is no such balance for capitalism, which will see the wealthy disavowing all concern for those who are being impoverished as we slide into the collapse of our global industrial civilization due to energy depletion.

Modern capitalism is a doomed, anachronistic construct which will soon be confined to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Heh, heh. Nothin' better than knockin' back a few Changs, smokin' some good weed, and hittin' the ol' computer keyboard to display one's brilliance in economics and history as one inexorably arrives at the ol' apocalypse! Whew!

Well, yawn. A typical leftist fantasy, one of many, is to imagine that the same resources must always be used MORE AND MORE and therefore in the future will be exhausted--leading to certain doom UNLESS leftists manage things for us all, as they did so well during Maoist China. It's the fallacy that things must and will remain static; there can be no innovation, like (cough) computer networks & stuff--no change, except for the worse.

Actually, prices regulate resources so that as one becomes scarce and therefore expensive, the market will innovate to offer cheaper substitutes and new ways of accomplishing the same things. For example, office workers can simply telecommute rather than drive to work.

Wish I had more time for fun and enlightenment, but who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel? as Pope asked memorably in his Epistle To Dr. Arbuthnot. Anyway, someday take a few courses in real economics and history. A good start might be to read The Constitution of Liberty and The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek)

Things are just gettin' better and better, man. I gotta wear shades!

Edited October 18, 2011 by JSixpack

[venturalaw]

Even beyond this, modern capitalism has replaced all those who it liberated from extreme poverty with a dependence on exosomatic energy instead...specifically fossil fuels and petroleum in particular. Remove this source of exosomatic energy, and the way of life "capitalism" has developed dies an ignoble death very rapidly.

Since we have now passed through the peak of the oil curve and for the next few centuries will see energy and economic decline, all those that previously had their standard of living raised will be returned to the abject poverty they knew before. The only difference is, the social structures that used to be present a few hundred years ago to support them will not be there.

So I reject the notion that capitalism is a moral system. It has granted a temporary reprieve against poverty for some people, only to subject them or their descendants to even more extreme poverty later. All of this so a very few can be wealthy without responsibility. Say what you will about aristocratic feudal landowners. Some were good, and some were evil, but they all had a responsibility towards their peasants. Failure to honor their obligations lowered their social standing in society. There is no such balance for capitalism, which will see the wealthy disavowing all concern for those who are being impoverished as we slide into the collapse of our global industrial civilization due to energy depletion.

Modern capitalism is a doomed, anachronistic construct which will soon be confined to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Heh, heh. Nothin' better than knockin' back a few Changs, smokin' some good weed, and hittin' the ol' computer keyboard to display one's brilliance in economics and history as one inexorably arrives at the ol' apocalypse! Whew!

Well, yawn. A typical leftist fantasy, one of many, is to imagine that the same resources must always be used MORE AND MORE and therefore in the future will be exhausted--leading to certain doom UNLESS leftists manage things for us all, as they did so well during Maoist China. It's the fallacy that things must and will remain static; there can be no innovation, like (cough) computer networks & stuff--no change, except for the worse.

Actually, prices regulate resources so that as one becomes scarce and therefore expensive, the market will innovate to offer cheaper substitutes and new ways of accomplishing the same things. For example, office workers can simply telecommute rather than drive to work.

Wish I had more time for fun and enlightenment, but who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel? as Pope asked memorably in his Epistle To Dr. Arbuthnot. Anyway, someday take a few courses in real economics and history. A good start might be to read The Constitution of Liberty and The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek)

Things are just gettin' better and better, man. I gotta wear shades!

Well said JS. :jap: