Thai Royal Insult Law May Have Been Misused: Govt

[webfact]

Thai royal insult law may have been misused: govt

BANGKOK, October 14, 2011 (AFP) - Thailand on Thursday accepted its controversial royal insult laws may have been misused and could "inadvertently" have affected freedom of expression, in response to UN concerns.

The aim of lese majeste legislation, which prohibits criticism of the monarchy and is punishable with up to 15 years in prison, "is not to limit" freedoms of speech or academic discourse, the Thai Foreign Ministry said.

"Be that as it may, in recent years, there have been cases where the law has been enforced in such a way that may not be in line with its purpose of protecting the dignity of the monarchy and may in some cases inadvertently affect people’s freedom of expression," it said.

It said the government recognises "potential issue arising from the application of this law and also wishes to prevent the misuse of the law".

The statement comes after Frank La Rue, United Nations special rapporteur on freedom of expression, called on Thailand to amend the laws, saying a recent increase in legal cases highlights the urgent need for reforms.

La Rue said such laws "encourage self-censorship and stifle important debates on matters of public interest, thus putting in jeopardy the right to freedom of opinion and expression".

The foreign ministry statement said the lese majeste law works "in a similar way" as libel law does for commoners, stressing that individuals must be "accountable" for the views they express.

It added that a special committee in the Royal Thai Police headquarters had been set up to scrutinise potential prosecutions.

Academics have noted a sharp increase in new royal insult cases in recent years and rights groups have expressed concern that the law was used to suppress freedom of expression under the previous government.

On Monday, a US citizen Joe Wichai Commart Gordon pleaded guilty in a Thai court to charges of insulting the monarchy.

He was arrested in May during a holiday in the kingdom and accused of translating a banned unauthorised biography of King Bhumibol Adulyadej into Thai and publishing it on the Internet while living in the United States.

Thailand's royals are an extremely sensitive subject in the politically divided country.

King Adulyadej, 83, the world's longest-reigning monarch and revered as a demi-god by many Thais, has been in hospital since September 2009.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-10-14

[webfact]

Many people have been losing their posting rights or receiving suspensions because they continue to make comments on the Monarchy, and members of the Thai Royal Family in a political context. This is in violation of Thai law which explicitly states that The Monarchy is above politics.

- Do not make any accusations about any individual's or groups' loyalty toward The Monarchy.

- Do not speculate on the opinions of any member of The Royal Family.

- Do not discuss succession or speculate on the future of The Monarchy.

This includes hinting at, joking about, or using innuendo about the above, or referring people to outside information containing such things.

While we do not wish to needlessly restrict discussion of current events in Thailand, it's necessary that we put the above restrictions in place to ensure that local laws and customs are honoured, and the forum remains a viable news source for Thailand's expat community.

You may see some news articles referring to such things, but remember that they have expensive legal teams that vet the quotations first, and you/we don't.

Thank you for your co-operation and understanding.

[whybother]

The foreign ministry statement said the lese majeste law works "in a similar way" as libel law does for commoners, stressing that individuals must be "accountable" for the views they express.

The Thai libel laws are part of the problem, in allowing people to be guilty if they tell the truth but make someone look bad.

[chaoyang]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

[Chang_paarp]

Thai royal insult law may have been misused: govt

BANGKOK, October 14, 2011 (AFP) - Thailand on Thursday accepted its controversial royal insult laws may have been misused and could "inadvertently" have affected freedom of expression, in response to UN concerns.

The aim of lese majeste legislation, which prohibits criticism of the monarchy and is punishable with up to 15 years in prison, "is not to limit" freedoms of speech or academic discourse, the Thai Foreign Ministry said.

"Be that as it may, in recent years, there have been cases where the law has been enforced in such a way that may not be in line with its purpose of protecting the dignity of the monarchy and may in some cases inadvertently affect people’s freedom of expression," it said.

It said the government recognises "potential issue arising from the application of this law and also wishes to prevent the misuse of the law".

The statement comes after Frank La Rue, United Nations special rapporteur on freedom of expression, called on Thailand to amend the laws, saying a recent increase in legal cases highlights the urgent need for reforms.

La Rue said such laws "encourage self-censorship and stifle important debates on matters of public interest, thus putting in jeopardy the right to freedom of opinion and expression".

The foreign ministry statement said the lese majeste law works "in a similar way" as libel law does for commoners, stressing that individuals must be "accountable" for the views .

<<snip for brevity >>

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-10-14

Hogwash, the LM laws have been used as political wepons for years by all and sundry.

[Mario2008]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

I believe you can freely discuss the law itself, but not the monarchy or make accusations against other persons.

[garrfeild]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

I agree with you. Also to say that those that have used this law against there political opponents or to score points, are as guilty of the offence, for using it to further their own agenda.

A bit like taking the lords name in vain.

I sincerely hope it is acceptable to have said this?

Edited October 14, 2011 by garrfeild

[h90]

We say in the past politicians accusing each other of LM.

[wintermute]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

[DocN]

Oh, really?

[tominbkk]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

Excellent point....if this is a no discussion allowed topic then just lock it from the beginning....?

[h90]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

And many countries have things like that. Either per law (in Germany/Austria with the WW2 things) or just per public opinion, if you have different ideas what happened on 9/11 everyone in USA closes the ears and shouts conspiration theorist.

so every country has its restrictions...

[h90]

To add: in places which allow the discussion, there is no discussion only some commies come with weird ridiculous things.

[soundman]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

Excellent point....if this is a no discussion allowed topic then just lock it from the beginning....?

To clarify - from Thai Visa forum rules.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

[animatic]

Thai royal insult law may have been misused: govt

Gee, ya think?

It's been a political weapon for both sides,

and it has been abused for political traction by both sides,

All in an effort to theoretically keep the monarchy above politics. It seems to have had the exact opposite effect. Protecting the monarchy has been used as a political cudgel on enemies. Pretty much despicable conduct, since so few prosecutions are actually based on a true abuse.

[serenitynow]

What's interesting to me is, that so many people get up in arms, and rightfully so, about the LM laws and the lack of civilian oversight of the military. Invariably these are also Thaksin sympathizers. The irony is that the only party that pledged to reform these laws and policies was just voted out of office and the party they favor is pledging crackdowns on "abusers" of LM laws and of course is politicizing the military to an extent not seen in 20 years.

Edited October 14, 2011 by serenitynow

[OzMick]

It appears this law is now applied selectively. US citizen Joe Wichai Commart Gordon has been charged for translating a book. Robert Amsterdam wrote a book which has attracted a similar charge, but has not been arrested even though he is currently in BKK.

Selective application of laws appears to be common here. Yingluk clearly lied while giving evidence in court, Pojamon's aquittal will not be appealed, PTP votes not to drop red-shirt MP's immunity (even though the charged MPs requested it with the utmost sincerity ) and I'm sure we could find many others.

[chaoyang]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

I believe you can freely discuss the law itself, but not the monarchyo r make accusattions against other persons.

I see. Well the problem comes when getting into specifics on whether a particular statement is LM or not, or whether LM is viable at all in a modern democracy, so the discussion is basically limited to "yes there is a LM law in Thailand."

So my contribution is:

Yes, there is a LM law in Thailand.

Actually, what my first post said is probably the best, so I'll leave the whole subject now and let the rest perform the dance more carefully than I know how or want to.

[gl555]

May!?!?!? Hahahhaa

[backtonormal]

What's interesting to me is, that so many people get up in arms, and rightfully so, about the LM laws and the lack of civilian oversight of the military. Invariably these are also Thaksin sympathizers. The irony is that the only party that pledged to reform these laws and policies was just voted out of office and the party they favor is pledging crackdowns on "abusers" of LM laws and of course is politicizing the military to an extent not seen in 20 years.

I think you will find that one of the very first things that the Abhisit government did was to substantially increase the maximum sentence for LM within months of taking office. Then we saw the sharp rise in using the law to attack political opponents as referred to in the original post. The LM and slander laws need at least reviewing to allow people to speak their minds, which can be done without offending the monarchy. I doubt if Thaksin will do a great deal especially with regard to slander laws, he will most probably need them to keep people quiet.

[Gary A]

Of course it has been misused. It's one of the favorite tactics used to put adversaries in a bad light. I have often thought that when the phony charges are dismissed that the person who brought the charges should be severely punished.

[CWMcMurray]

Of course it has been misused. It's one of the favorite tactics used to put adversaries in a bad light. I have often thought that when the phony charges are dismissed that the person who brought the charges should be severely punished.

I agree... after all doesn't abuse of the LM laws make the Monarchy look bad?

In fact I believe that if the LM law is ever abolished it would likely be because of \wide spread abuse of LM accusations and selective prosecutions for political gain done ion the name of protecting the Monarchy.

If that type of abuse continues over a long enough time and effects enough people, it is very possible that at some point public opinion will eventual turn against LM laws.

So the abuse of the LM laws in the long term, could be more damaging to the LM laws themselves and the monarchy.

[gohmer]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

And many countries have things like that. Either per law (in Germany/Austria with the WW2 things) or just per public opinion, if you have different ideas what happened on 9/11 everyone in USA closes the ears and shouts conspiration theorist.

so every country has its restrictions...

I think only the lunatics and ignorant were chanting "conspiracy". Maybe the US's Neo Conservatives - who I despise - have it right after all...spread democracy at any cost. I don't see two democracies fighting each other, but a lot of non-democracies fighting each other. Thailand is fighting Muslims in the South, Cambodians to the East, small conflicts with both gov't and paramilitary factions to the west, Chinese drug runners to the north, and more radical red-shirts within.

[RichardSmith99999]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully agree. I would like to thank TV for giving me such a wonderful start to the day. If this were satire then it would be the finest piece of work I have read in many many years.

[bigbamboo]

Thanks for the information, but other than that, its is really pointless to have a subject that cannot be discussed as a thread in a discussion group -- literally a contradiction in terms.

I fully understand the difficulties faced by Thaivisa and its moderators, and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

It's always nice to be in full agreement with someone occasionally (!) .........and that's the case with Chaoyang's post here.

[whybother]

I think you will find that one of the very first things that the Abhisit government did was to substantially increase the maximum sentence for LM within months of taking office.

...

I didn't find that. Do you have any details?

[terryp]

Totally idiotic to even have this post open? unless Thai Visa are wanting to reduce membership/

Thailand is just a bunch of school kids..selfish, ignorant and if they dont get their own way sulk, hit you, lock you up or kill you

All in the name of Democracy of course

[EyesWideOpen]

Totally idiotic to even have this post open? unless Thai Visa are wanting to reduce membership/

Thailand is just a bunch of school kids..selfish, ignorant and if they dont get their own way sulk, hit you, lock you up or kill you

All in the name of Democracy of course

My thoughts exactly, the part about reducing membership..... :-)

[mdechgan]

The law is a law and there is not really much of a reason or benefit to break it.

There are many other ways to speak out and wording that the law would not apply.

I think most of the people that do break it do it for personal gain and attention.

[wintermute]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

And many countries have things like that. Either per law (in Germany/Austria with the WW2 things) or just per public opinion, if you have different ideas what happened on 9/11 everyone in USA closes the ears and shouts conspiration theorist.

so every country has its restrictions...

Murder is ok because in some countries you can get away with it. That's essentially what your logic is. Back in the old days people used to call each other witches and have them burned too. Your point is meaningless.

Edited October 14, 2011 by wintermute