Overstay And Thai Citizenship

[Eff1n2ret]

No need to do anything with the Thai passport, just leave on the foreign passport.

Ok, thank you.

In May, I need to go to Germany.

So if I understand it right, when I stamp out of the country I use the thai passport.

When I arrive in Germany, I stamp in using EU passport.

When I leave Germany, I stamp out using EU passport.

When I arrive in Thailand, I stamp in using Thai passport?

This whole double citizenship is screwing with my head.. so appreciate all of your help guys.

-Donnie

That is right. So long as you have come into Thailand on your Thai passport.

- and when you come in don't show the Immigration Officer at BKK your EU passport, it will only confuse him/her. Referring back to the predicament of the lady which I described in post #9, I now understand it arose because on arrival she offered the IO both passports and he took the law into his own hands, insisting on stamping her UK passport as a visitor.

I can report that she has avoided being treated as an overstayer by going back to our local Immigration Office where they gave her a 1-year extension and advised her to produce her Thai passport on arrival next time. On reflection I think they have been as helpful as they can, and for the cost of 1900 baht she has avoided border runs or schlepping back to Bangkok airport in the hope of getting the original mistake rectified. The extension is endorsed "former Thai citizen", which is a bit of a fiction as she still has Thai nationality.

[samran]

^^ lots of people enter thailand with 'clean' thai passports each year (ie ones with no departure stamp) and enter with no problem. I did this earlier this year with no issue. So have most of my family.

Problems arise when you get an inexperienced immigration officer who doesn't know what to do. It is rarer these days for this to happen and all that need to be done is ask to speak to a superior who can over rule the more junior officer.

A thai passport holder simply can't be denied unrestricted entry into Thailand.

[prakhonchai nick]

The op could leave Thailand through the Chong Sa Ngam (SiSaket) border crossing for Cambodia and return the same way. He would then receive exit and entry stamps. This border crossing has no computer hook up with Bangkok

Once stamped into Thailand, he could easily leave through Swampy.

No need to pay a 20,000 overstay fine.

[Mario2008]

The op could leave Thailand through the Chong Sa Ngam (SiSaket) border crossing for Cambodia and return the same way. He would then receive exit and entry stamps. This border crossing has no computer hook up with Bangkok

Once stamped into Thailand, he could easily leave through Swampy.

No need to pay a 20,000 overstay fine.

His non-Thai version would still be in Thailand on overstay and they might pick it up at the airport when he tries to leave.

[sirchai]

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

People normally pay the overstay fine at the airport while on their way out.

As OP has stated, he received his Thai passport just 4 years ago. Guess because he entered Thailand with his Swedish passport, he'll have the full responsibility for what he's done.

A good tip: Leave the country with your Thai passport, for example to Laos, like Sawhan Nakhet, and start again without Visa problems.

Regarding a fine, it's possible that you not only have to pay the 20 K overstay fine, some time in prison could also be possible.

I'd be more than careful, even when you decide to pay the fine, take a monk or anybody with you with a high social rank. Good Luck!!

Greetings from lower northeast...

Edited October 23, 2011 by sirchai

[sirchai]

The op could leave Thailand through the Chong Sa Ngam (SiSaket) border crossing for Cambodia and return the same way. He would then receive exit and entry stamps. This border crossing has no computer hook up with Bangkok

Once stamped into Thailand, he could easily leave through Swampy.

No need to pay a 20,000 overstay fine.

His non-Thai version would still be in Thailand on overstay and they might pick it up at the airport when he tries to leave.

He can leave Thailand from any other neighboring country without any problems....

[lopburi3]

Nobody goes to prison. In worst case a short dentition for police check/court but even that is rare. To suggest a Thai citizen would receive such treatment if acting in good faith is ludicrous. To suggest he depart not using passport he entered with is not good advise. He should leave on his foreign passport and pay any fine imposed.

[marcoCM]

a lil bit input from me... i'm german thai, born in germany and got my thai passport when i was 18, now i'm 25 and still with both passports.

i made the same misstake like the topicstarter when i came to thailand i show'd my german passport, never thought it would be a problem.

after a few years i had to go to germany a few weeks...bla bla bla immigration pull'd me over at the airport to clear some data. they ask'd me if i have 2 passports cause if not it gonna be expensive, i said i'm sorry show'd my german and thai passport, all done after 15min and never had a problem

thats my story... if you're afraid there could be any problem just go to immigration now and clear it out, if you got a thai passport you don't have to worry;)

[MrMo]

In the early 2000s during the time of the old main Immigration Office in Suan Pau (excuse the spelling) and the Dom Mueng, there was a special counter in the Immig.Office with the sole task of correcting errors made by Dom Mueng Immigation Officers.

Perhaps you should contact the new main Immigration Office.

[nosatisfaction]

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

People normally pay the overstay fine at the airport while on their way out.

Of course, I understand the overstay system. But, for the sake of argument, what if he refuses to pay ? Is he arrestable ? Can he, as a Thai national, be refused permission to exit Thailand ? If he commited any other other crime, could he be deported as he is still in Thailand as a Swedish national ? I doubt it. I am playing Devil's Advocate here, of course.

Hello, all of the above and below is correct, except in Thailand , in the contrary to most countries, dual nationality is not legal or recognized, eg my wife has both Belgian and thai nationality , illegal according to Thai law.

This being said I,,igration does not check and you can use both passports.

[lopburi3]

It is not illegal according to Thai law. Perhaps by Belgium law but not by Thai. Thai law has no stance on dual nationality - just as is the with USA and many others. So it may not be legal; but there is no law preventing it.

[Arkady]

The overstay of Thai nationals is an interesting situation that seems to arise surprisingly often.

In the case of Donnie M, he obtained his Thai passport in Thailand and should probably have clarified the situation with Immigration when he got it. I think most people in this situation would leave the country on the foreign passport while the visa is still valid and re-enter on the Thai passport. He might be able to just leave the country on his Thai passport, as if he has never been abroad and not bother to clear up the overstay on his Swedish passport and I can't say if their computers would pick up his entry under the same name on a Swedish passport (assuming he has the same name on both) which could cause a big delay, if it happened. If he doesn't want to risk this and is willing to pay the fine, he could either front up and pay the fine at the airport, or alternatively go to Immigration HQ at Chaengwattana, when the flood waters have subsided from there, and see if it is possible to get the visa in the Swedish passport cancelled without paying a fine on the grounds that he is a Thai national and allowed to stay permanently. There must be a mechanism to do this for those who become naturalised Thais in Thailand. However, they would not normally accumulate an overstay fine beforehand. Personally I would probably take the Chaengwattana option and see if things can be cleared up before going to the airport. Anyway they can't arrest him for overstaying. One thing you need to be aware of is that the Chinese Embassy will not issue a visa in a passport that has no valid entry stamp for Thailand and I doubt that an overstayed visa would qualify. It is also possible they refuse to grant a visa at all to someone who presents evidence of overstaying for four years in another country. Anyway the Chinese visa fee for Thai passports is less than for EU ones, so you are better off using the Thai passport. There again you ust apply as if you have never left Thailand.

The case described by EffIn2ret is a more common on TV. It is quite straightforward. Immigration officers at the airport don't like the idea of Thais getting naturalized overseas and retaining their Thai nationality and like to try to force them to enter Thailand on their foreign rights. In fact there is no basis for this in the Thai Nationality Act. There is an ambiguous reference to Thais naturalizing as aliens renouncing their Thai nationality which during the validity of the current 1965 has only been interpreted as voluntary renunciation, as far as I am aware. Virtually all the renunciations of Thai nationality by those who have naturalized as aliens are those were obliged to show evidence of renunciation of Thai nationality in order to obtain or retain their new nationality. Most did it in exchange for Taiwanese Korean, Singaporean or German nationality and all of these uptight countries insist on naturalized citizens renouncing original nationality. Hardly any have done in exchange for other nationalities and the small number that did were probably misguided. In addition to the lack of support for the Immigration officer's view in the Nationality, he is also guilty of a flagrant abuse of the Thai constitution which guarantees the rights of all Thai citizens to enter and reside freely in Thailand. Since the lady in question has a Thai passport that was either issued in the UK or left the Thailand and didn't come back, she doesn't have Donnie M's option to leave Thailand on a clean passport issued in Thailand, as if she hasn't left the country. She must either leave on the UK passport and be willing to pay the fine or go to Chaengwattana and ask for the visa in the UK passport to be cancelled on the grounds that she was illegally denied her constitutional right to enter Thailand as a Thai. As Samran says, the correct approach in the first place is to ask to see the Immigration supervisor at the airport and demand to be allowed to enter Thailand as a Thai. I have seen a Thai thread on the Pantip website that advises asking the immigration officer to clarify which sections of the Nationality Act and the Constitution he believes supports his refusal to admit you as a Thai and bring copies of the laws with you.

Regarding the question of half Thai children giving up Thai nationality at 20, Samran is also absolutely correct here. I won't go into detail here, as this is discussed at length in the thread on Thai nationality. Suffice it to say that the Nationality Act provides a procedure for "look krueng" to renounce their Thai nationality at the age of 20 but doesn't make it compulsory to do so for those who wish to retain their other nationality. It is simply an option for those who wish to retain a nationality that obliges them to give up their Thai nationality or possibly for Thai males who wish to visit Thailand as tourists without concerns about military service. Otherwise there is no reason to give up Thai nationality as there is currently no global taxation or inheritance tax for Thais and you can pass your Thai nationality on to the Nth generation, no matter where children are born.

[Arkady]

Donnie. Yes, you could do as you say and pay the fine as you leave on your Swedish passport and return on your Thai passport. Since your Thai passport was issued in Thailand, you might also be able to wing it and just leave on it as if you are a regular Thai who has never been abroad since it was issued. You would not be guilty of a crime by doing that, as you are a Thai citizen and entitled to use your Thai passport. However, I don't know if the passport office took the details of your Swedish passport when they issued your Thai passport, as they do for people who get naturalized as Thais. In that case, it might cause a problem at Immigration that the visa in the Swedish passport has never been cancelled. Also it is just possible that their computers are good enough to match you with the Swedish passport, if you have the same name in both which would also cause a problem and a delay that might result in missing your flight. Either of the above options might work OK but personally I would go to the Chaengwattana HQ of Immigration and try to negotiate to have the original visa cancelled free of charge on the grounds that you are a Thai national and the visa and overstay rules don't apply to you. Be careful how you approach the Chinese Embassy who might not be willing to grant a visa to some one with a record of overstaying for several years in another country. If you have never used your Swedish passport for a Chinese visa, you should be OK using the Thai passport for that. I don't know if Chinese immigration officers at airports look for your exit visa from the country you have just come from but I can tell you from experience that they do, if you travel overland. Also the Chinese Embassy will refuse to issue a visa in a passport that has no entry stamp for that country, unless of course in the case of a national of that country who has not been abroad on that passport. Good luck.

The Thai wife doesn't have the option of trying to wing it because her passport was either issued in the UK or was issued in Thailand and left but never came back. She should either front up at the airport willing to pay the fine or go to Chaengwattana and negotiate to have the visa in the British passport cancelled, so she can leave on the Thai passport. As Samran says, she should have demanded to see a supervisor and insisted on her constitutional right to enter Thailand freely as a Thai without limit or condition. A thread on the Pantip website recommends dual nationals in this situation to demand to know which law they are being denied entry under as a Thai and carry copies of the Nationality Act and the Constitution with them ready to flash at them, if the officer tries to bluff it. It is guaranteed that they cannot point to anything in either of those but I have never heard of any of these cases that weren't quickly resolved after the supervisor was called.

Samran is also right about half Thai children. The Nationality Act provides an option to renounce Thai nationality at the age of 20 but stops short of actually saying this is required for those who wish to retain their other nationality. Other countries may, of course, require renunciation of Thai nationality to retain theirs on reaching the age of majority but there is otherwise no reason to do so.

It is a facet of Thai culture that the law is deliberately left a bit vague, although the constitution is crystal clear, and that the Interior Ministry and Immigration like to imply that dual nationality is not permitted. However, there is not much they can do about it at the present time because there are too many influential Thais with dual or multiple nationality, e.g. Thaksin, Abhisit, Korn to name but a few. Unfortunately many junior officials genuinely believe that dual nationality is illegal and don't like to be gainsaid by members of the public. Therefore dual nationals are advised to avoid disclosing their other nationality to Thai officials, if this can be avoided. Otherwise they should politely but firmly assert their constitutional rights.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Arkady

[lopburi3]

Also it is just possible that their computers are good enough to match you with the Swedish passport,

I have seen first person reports that indeed the computer will find such attempts to exit using another passport.

[Johpa]

Of course, I understand the overstay system. But, for the sake of argument, what if he refuses to pay ? Is he arrestable ? Can he, as a Thai national, be refused permission to exit Thailand ?

As my son found out after finally obtaining his Thai passport in-country after arriving on his US passport, a Thai citizen can indeed be refused permission to exit Thailand at the airport. He just barely scraped together enough money to pay his overstay fine to make his flight. There is a thread on my dummy son's experience here.

[samran]

^^

Johpa - has your son returned to Thailand on his Thai passport? Any issues when he came back?

[garthai]

No problem if you have both Thai & a Swedish passport.

You exit on your Thai Passport & come back into Thailand on your Thai Passport, enter China with your Swedish passport,

This is what we do with my Thai son, As per advice from Thai Immigration.

Previously he had left Thailand and returned on his British passport, and then basically overstayed his visa.

[Arkady]

It seems that the post I made that seemed to have disappeared when I tried to upload was actually retained. I rewrote it in slightly shorter form after that and I apologize for duplication.

It seems that, from the other thread my slightly cavalier option 1 for Donnie to wing it and try to exit with a clean Thai passport is not a good idea The details of the foreign passport may well be retained by the MFA and forwarded to Immigration or Immigration may match the same name and DoB,if you have the same name in both. The remaining options are then: 1) to leave on foreign passport and pay the overstay, then return on Thai passport; 2) go to Chaengwattana and try to negotiate to have the visa and overstay nullified. Obviously trying to negotiate at the airport is too late. If some one has the time and inclination to try option 2, it would be interesting to know the result. As previously mentioned, I think that the mechanism exists to cancel visas like that because I think that is what newly naturalized Thais are supposed to do but I am not absolutely sure. Maybe they also have to leave with their foreign passports and then show their naturalization certificate to re-enter with their Thai passports.

[DonnieME]

Hi guys, going to update you on my situation.

Went to the immigration at Suan Plu.

They told me to get a visa on the Thai passport, leave on Swedish passport and re-enter on my Thai passport.

This makes no <deleted>' sense. How do I leave on a Swedish passport when the visa is on my Thai passport?!

They also told me that they're unable to transfer the old stuff from the old passport to the new passport as the time limit is 45 days.

More than 45 days overstay and I will need to do it at the airport.

I do have to complement the guys at Suan Plu. Gave me VIP service, I just walked up the place was crowded with thousands of people.

They gave me a quick service and I only spent about 10 minutes there. I was surprised at the fast service.

What do you guys suggest I should do?

Get Chinese visa on my Thai passport?

Brgds,

DonnieME

[lopburi3]

You are here on a foreign passport and must leave Thailand using that passport and pay overstay. Use passport with China visa at check-in (along with foreign passport if different) to show airline you do not need a visa - exit immigration using your foreign passport - enter China with Thai passport (or the passport with visa) and return using Thai passport to enter Thailand and be here as a Thai and not needing visa entry (explain lack of arrival card due need to depart using other passport).

[samran]

Hi guys, going to update you on my situation.

Went to the immigration at Suan Plu.

They told me to get a visa on the Thai passport, leave on Swedish passport and re-enter on my Thai passport.

This makes no <deleted>' sense. How do I leave on a Swedish passport when the visa is on my Thai passport?!

They also told me that they're unable to transfer the old stuff from the old passport to the new passport as the time limit is 45 days.

More than 45 days overstay and I will need to do it at the airport.

I do have to complement the guys at Suan Plu. Gave me VIP service, I just walked up the place was crowded with thousands of people.

They gave me a quick service and I only spent about 10 minutes there. I was surprised at the fast service.

What do you guys suggest I should do?

Get Chinese visa on my Thai passport?

Brgds,

DonnieME

Given you are living in Thailand, getting a Chinese visa in your Thai passport will by MUCH easier.

Then:

At airport check in show the airline the passport with the Chinese visa in it to show you have permission to travel to China.

Depart Thailand on your Swedish passport (as that is what you entered Thailand on) and pay whatever overstay fine you need to pay

Enter and depart China on your Thai passport

Re-enter Thailand on your Thai passport.

It isn't rocket science.

Edited November 9, 2011 by samran

[DonnieME]

Hi guys, going to update you on my situation.

Went to the immigration at Suan Plu.

They told me to get a visa on the Thai passport, leave on Swedish passport and re-enter on my Thai passport.

This makes no <deleted>' sense. How do I leave on a Swedish passport when the visa is on my Thai passport?!

They also told me that they're unable to transfer the old stuff from the old passport to the new passport as the time limit is 45 days.

More than 45 days overstay and I will need to do it at the airport.

I do have to complement the guys at Suan Plu. Gave me VIP service, I just walked up the place was crowded with thousands of people.

They gave me a quick service and I only spent about 10 minutes there. I was surprised at the fast service.

What do you guys suggest I should do?

Get Chinese visa on my Thai passport?

Brgds,

DonnieME

Given you are living in Thailand, getting a Chinese visa in your Thai passport will by MUCH easier.

Then:

At airport check in show the airline the passport with the Chinese visa in it to show you have permission to travel to China.

Depart Thailand on your Swedish passport (as that is what you entered Thailand on) and pay whatever overstay fine you need to pay

Enter and depart China on your Thai passport

Re-enter Thailand on your Thai passport.

It isn't rocket science.

Samran,

Thanks for the help man.

I feel much better now.

I'll give you all an update once I get to China.

Brgds,

DonnieME

[DonnieME]

Hi all,

I just landed in BKK today.

Everything went smooth as clockwork.

Thank you all for your help guys!

Brgds,

Donnie