Police Shakedown On Loi Kroh Rd

[Ulysses G.]

The inner part of the city, Taepae road, Loi Kroh road, night bazaar and all the surrounding areas, have become run down, dingy and squalid.

I have been here a fair amount of time and these areas have always been somewhat "run down, dingy and squalid". Many cities in South East Asia are. I do not see a lot of difference from 20 years ago as far as cleanliness and atmosphere.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[CMX]

Upon reflection, it bothers me that the general run of comments here seem to favor terrific development of the tourist industry and the creation of Chiang Mai into some sort of modernized (in the sense of sterility) city.

Unless I am in the tourist business, why do I favor more traffic and a 'civic cleanup' that would lead to a greater population of expats? All of my experiences living in a variety of cities indicate that the kinds of 'success' we discuss here create more expensive and more crowded places in which to live.

Put another way, Chiang Mai is not a diamond. It is however a pearl (each of us will decide of what quality we believe our pearl to be) and I'd prefer that it remain hidden. If I am so prissy that I find Loy Kroh distasteful, I'll avoid it as if it were a red light district in Amsterdam or Hamburg (which it is not) - enjoying instead the rest of town. (Fussy types can always hang out across at Nibelungen along with the other blond Norsemen and Germanic peoples; it is neat there.)

In this way, we can as always say that the police are our friends. As for those who hate being tossed out of a favorite drinking spot at midnight, let them start earlier in their rounds.

And anyway, whatever it is, the point of life must be closer to mornings than forgotten, not to say oblivious, nights.

Edited November 24, 2011 by CMX

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Pedr is generous with his comments and always overly so with his advertising.

He's a good sort, but If you don't really like being in Thailand, you will be quite comfortable at his friendly pub, or Kevin's, or some others. If you are interested in Thailand, why would you go to these places? Think about it!

Must we be entirely inclined this way or that? No, say I. Even those of us who willingly accept full power spices in our food, are married (let us imagine, to an entire Thai family), and have children might favor a brew and the company of English speaking folks, not to mention Western foods and/or a brew or two.

Moreover, I could make these pubs almost like a second home (in moderation) and still be about the business of wading, happily, deeper and deeper into Thailand's native waters.

Attending a friendly pub does not require turning a blind eye to another world, including the strange behavior of the authorities in this case.

But

Attending a friendly pub situated in a street full of prostitutes is slightly different though, don't you think?

You completely missed what CNX and Mapguy were talking about and instead chose to dump a Number 2 in the conversation. Hint: it was about if visiting a pub where Westerners go is something that defeats the purpose of being in Thailand, and enjoying all things Thai. You could very easily never set foot in a tourist bar and still be surrounded by prostitutes the whole night. And similarly, neither Olde Bell and Red Lion have prostitutes. So you're completely off, it's a different topic you're howling to the moon.

Edited November 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The inner part of the city, Taepae road, Loi Kroh road, night bazaar and all the surrounding areas, have become run down, dingy and squalid.

I have been here a fair amount of time and these areas have always been somewhat "run down, dingy and squalid". Many cities in South East Asia are. I do not see a lot of difference from 20 years ago as far as cleanliness and atmosphere.

RIght. If anything I see a marked improvement; anything going up used to be an ugly concrete box. (These days they slam some wood on the outside of the concrete box and use better paint. ) But more crucially, some things are going up in traditional styles and materials, and old buildings are renovated.

Reading Beetlejuice's posts, he often says something like:

For the optimists and those who believe it`s business as usual, don't kid yourselves, the word has already got round and in all respects, Chiang Mai is rapidly losing it`s appeal as a tourist destination, more so by each year.

This tends to bring up two questons in me. First of all: Why does he choose to live in a place that he perceives to be the way he describes, and secondly: does he ever speak with tourists? Or, if most of his social interactions happen with other expats with a similar outlook in life, or on this forum, then does he ever take a peek at, for example: http://www.tripadvis...ai.html#REVIEWS

If anything I'm concerned about waking up one day and finding real mass tourism in Chiang Mai.. I wouldn't begrudge it to the people working hard in a tourism related business, but to the rest of us: be careful what you wish for.

Edited November 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[uptheos]

I have been here a fair amount of time and these areas have always been somewhat "run down, dingy and squalid".

Makes you wonder what drew so many farang's here in the first place?

Oh I remember....temples and 'the culture'.

Edited November 24, 2011 by uptheos

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This post makes a lot of sense and there's much truth to it, the Sunday night walking street market is a much much better experience than anything the Night Bazaar has to offer and is far better attended.

I went to the CM Sunday market once, it was my my idea of hell.

What *do* you like?

I mean, in general in life? Answer anything; social, cultural.. animal, vegetable, mineral.. ?

Edited November 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[expatmakmak]

This thread is rapidly going off topic. Please try keep to the OP, which was about the dum loward cracking down on Loy Kroh road. There have also been more than a few Chiang Mai bashers. If you really don't like it here then vote with your tao!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

If I were the Governor [...] I would ensure that the sellers were dealing in Lanna crafts, not copy handbags and watches etc. There would be nice little cafe areas and it would revive the whole area.

Copy/piracy issues aside, (a potential law enforcement issue), forcing people to sell certain things and tell them what shops to run sounds a lot like communism. I don't think that ever flew very far.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This thread is rapidly going off topic. Please try keep to the OP, which was about the dum loward cracking down on Loy Kroh road. There have also been more than a few Chiang Mai bashers. If you really don't like it here then vote with your tao!

Sounds good to me.

So on the original topic:

"Bar owners of the world, unite!!!"

That was what I perceived to be the de-facto theme of a meeting of bar owners/representatives in the general Loi Kroh / Kotchasarn / Thapae area yesterday. "If we don't stand by each other, then who will stand by us?". It sounded a lot like a play will be made that stresses the importance of pubs, restaurants and bars in the overal spectrum of things Chiang Mai has to offer tourists, and that having police chase tourists back to their room at midnight is a nasty form of state curfew that is killing tourism just as high season starts.

Edited November 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[cmsally]

A lot of tourists come to Thailand to buy the "fakes". It has been famous for that for a long time. Agreed the Night Bazaar area needs some rethinking but its fate may lay in the hands of a certain beer company more than the Chiang Mai authorities.

Chiang mai has lots of culturally minded people and depending on the area they do fight for their corner. The city centre has always been pretty chaotic and some areas more so than others.

I think now there is more residential awareness in terms of environment, noise, development than I have ever seen in the past; which can only be a good thing. Chiang Mai sorely lacks any form of zoning and this is a source of major concern for a lot of residents.

In terms of the OP subject I don't think Loi Khroh is the only issue. There are also similar problems around Chang Moi/ Nimman./Rajavithi

I think you will find the so called shakedown is due to resident complaints (and obviously some residents are not without power). They are simply asking the authorities to do their job and get licensing/zoning sorted out. Simple as that. In some areas I understand it has become pretty impossible for residents to coexist with a lot of late night businesses.

[Beetlejuice]

The inner part of the city, Taepae road, Loi Kroh road, night bazaar and all the surrounding areas, have become run down, dingy and squalid.

I have been here a fair amount of time and these areas have always been somewhat "run down, dingy and squalid". Many cities in South East Asia are. I do not see a lot of difference from 20 years ago as far as cleanliness and atmosphere.

RIght. If anything I see a marked improvement; anything going up used to be an ugly concrete box. (These days they slam some wood on the outside of the concrete box and use better paint. ) But more crucially, some things are going up in traditional styles and materials, and old buildings are renovated.

Reading Beetlejuice's posts, he often says something like:

For the optimists and those who believe it`s business as usual, don't kid yourselves, the word has already got round and in all respects, Chiang Mai is rapidly losing it`s appeal as a tourist destination, more so by each year.

This tends to bring up two questons in me. First of all: Why does he choose to live in a place that he perceives to be the way he describes, and secondly: does he ever speak with tourists? Or, if most of his social interactions happen with other expats with a similar outlook in life, or on this forum, then does he ever take a peek at, for example: http://www.tripadvis...ai.html#REVIEWS

If anything I'm concerned about waking up one day and finding real mass tourism in Chiang Mai.. I wouldn't begrudge it to the people working hard in a tourism related business, but to the rest of us: be careful what you wish for.

The general decline began well after I settled here. Having a family and being a well established ex-pat I don`t give a rat’s behind what happens in the city one way or another, provided it doesn’t affect me. I have both farang and Thai friends. My son and his cousin are full time policemen in Chiang Mai, both working for the same departments and I get to hear of events straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

Having recently retired from my company based in Spain after serving over 35 years dealing with companies from all over south East Asia. I am still in contact with many Thai and foreign company bosses all over Thailand, especially those within the tourist and foreign owned industries. So I don’t base my analysis from statements heard from a man in a bar.

The theme of this thread is about crackdowns on the Loi Kroh road and I am giving some reasons why this is happening and the general picture as a whole, according to the professional knowledge I have gained over the years. In other words, an expert opinion.

As I stated previous, much of this is political and for what should be obvious reasons I have no wish to delve into on a public forum.

At the end of the day viewers can form and express their own opinions, no need to take anyone else’s comments into account. I consider them all credible and of interest.

The main questions are: Is Chiang Mai concerned about losing it`s tourist industry or not? Does a huge downturn in tourism have any negative impact on Chiang Mai?

[Beetlejuice]

The inner part of the city, Taepae road, Loi Kroh road, night bazaar and all the surrounding areas, have become run down, dingy and squalid.

I have been here a fair amount of time and these areas have always been somewhat "run down, dingy and squalid". Many cities in South East Asia are. I do not see a lot of difference from 20 years ago as far as cleanliness and atmosphere.

RIght. If anything I see a marked improvement; anything going up used to be an ugly concrete box. (These days they slam some wood on the outside of the concrete box and use better paint. ) But more crucially, some things are going up in traditional styles and materials, and old buildings are renovated.

Reading Beetlejuice's posts, he often says something like:

For the optimists and those who believe it`s business as usual, don't kid yourselves, the word has already got round and in all respects, Chiang Mai is rapidly losing it`s appeal as a tourist destination, more so by each year.

This tends to bring up two questons in me. First of all: Why does he choose to live in a place that he perceives to be the way he describes, and secondly: does he ever speak with tourists? Or, if most of his social interactions happen with other expats with a similar outlook in life, or on this forum, then does he ever take a peek at, for example: http://www.tripadvis...ai.html#REVIEWS

If anything I'm concerned about waking up one day and finding real mass tourism in Chiang Mai.. I wouldn't begrudge it to the people working hard in a tourism related business, but to the rest of us: be careful what you wish for.

Yes, another extremely good argument and point that I have taken on board.

[muchogra]

I had the opportunities of walking along Loi Kroh Rd a few times. All the ladies there seem to be from the central, near north, or Issan areas. Is my assumption correct? Where are all the CM ladies like those I saw during the flower festival in February? Some people told me many have gone to work in the South or in Bangkok. Is that so?

[uptheos]

If anything I'm concerned about waking up one day and finding real mass tourism in Chiang Mai.. I wouldn't begrudge it to the people working hard in a tourism related business, but to the rest of us: be careful what you wish for.

Indeed.

Those of us old enough to remember the idyllic spots in the med; the Greek islands, Cyprus, The Balearics, and Spanish mainland places......all now taken over with furking F&C, Pizza, Burger, Bratwurst, Knockwurst etc, and as much boozing as one can handle. Some of these once lovely (very cheap) places are now very expensive hell holes, due to mass tourism and people setting up businesses there, because they couldn't afford to in UK or other expensive places. In the process changing the whole cultural scene. There are still gems in the med, but certainly not where there's mass tourism.

Yes, good luck to those working hard, but for others be careful what you wish for.

Edited November 24, 2011 by uptheos

[muchogra]

Personally I don't feel anything wrong with the night bazaar. Relative to other touristic places in Thailand the CM people seem friendlier and not inclined to cheat and scam as much. Why would anybody want to change it to a cement jungle and squeaky clean like Singapore or HK? Korea was a nice place 30 years ago. It was even cheaper than Thailand then. Many of my friends went there for girlies and skiing. Nowadays it's very expensive. Progress? Democratic? I prefer the old ways of life.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I had the opportunities of walking along Loi Kroh Rd a few times. All the ladies there seem to be from the central, near north, or Issan areas. Is my assumption correct?

Pretty much, yes. Some hilltribe too. What you see is still pretty diverse though, if you go to a tourist nightlife areain Bangkok or Pattaya you can go days without meeting someone NOT from the North East.

Where are all the CM ladies like those I saw during the flower festival in February?

In school, at work, or if they work in nightly entertainment then they're in Bangkok.

Some people told me many have gone to work in the South or in Bangkok. Is that so?

Yes, though in local, more Thai oriented places I see a lot of girls from the general North; usually not from Chiang Mai city, but you do find just about any district in the North. So that's also where the local Muang girls are; not everyone goes to Bangkok (or can make it big there.)

[cmsally]

I think one of the points about the Night Bazaar is that it is already a concrete jungle. Most of the tourists seem to stick to the pavements and also Anusarn market. Those are really the only bits with a "bazaar" feel to them.

Night Bazaar business has also been eaten up by Sat and Sun walking streets.

[Mapguy]

Pedr is generous with his comments and always overly so with his advertising.

He's a good sort, but If you don't really like being in Thailand, you will be quite comfortable at his friendly pub, or Kevin's, or some others. If you are interested in Thailand, why would you go to these places? Think about it!

Must we be entirely inclined this way or that? No, say I. Even those of us who willingly accept full power spices in our food, are married (let us imagine, to an entire Thai family), and have children might favor a brew and the company of English speaking folks, not to mention Western foods and/or a brew or two.

Moreover, I could make these pubs almost like a second home (in moderation) and still be about the business of wading, happily, deeper and deeper into Thailand's native waters.

Attending a friendly pub does not require turning a blind eye to another world, including the strange behavior of the authorities in this case.

I don't think I expressed myself well. I had tourists in mind more than those who live here. It seems quite odd that people would travel thousands of miles for a pint and fish and chips, or MacDonalds. As UG later said, if you live in a place, it is good to enjoy different cuisine from time to time --- and Chiang Mai is quite remarkable for the variety of its eateries. Really, the ones to consult about this are UG or the fellow who runs the dining out group. I wonder which could go the longest in Chiang Mai sampling a different cuisine every night without duplicating one! UG, are you up to the challenge?!

[jackr]

The inner part of the city, Taepae road, Loi Kroh road, night bazaar and all the surrounding areas, have become run down, dingy and squalid.

I can describe it as a complete dump and on the verges of transforming into a slum area.

What a load of <deleted>. The place hasn't looked better in the 13 years I've been visiting/living. Some nicer abodes all-round, the gates and nearby moat areas have been cleaned up and Chang Khlan even has its cables in the ground. For me, hope it stays just as it is, retains unconventionality, and most of all doesn't evolve into some faceless, sterile, boring, Swiss-esque town. However, if indeed it is going downhill, lets hope it continues that way in the hopes a certain section of its expat demographic wanting it to be something it's not disappear in droves.

[uptheos]

For me, hope it stays just as it is, retains unconventionality, and most of all doesn't evolve into some faceless, sterile, boring, Swiss-esque town.

I remember when Nimmenhemen was a 'normal' place......just interesting places with lonely housewives

'They paved paradise and put up a parking lot'

Edited November 24, 2011 by uptheos

[Ulysses G.]

I remember when Nimmenhemen was a 'normal' place......just interesting places with lonely housewives

I did a lot of treking in that area in my younger days. Boy has it changed.

[uptheos]

I remember when Nimmenhemen was a 'normal' place......just interesting places with lonely housewives

I did a lot of treking in that area in my younger days. Boy has it changed.

It was the place for 'trekkies'.......beam me up spotty.

[hellodolly]

Hard to believe a thread with a totally wrong tittle (similar to the Nation titles) and people are still on it.Why has it not been shut down it was never about facts it was about dreams of the alcohol drinking people being thwarted by the ligament enforcing of the laws.

At or about 20 minutes to closing time get what you need invite your buddies and their rent a wives over to your place and continue on until you are done. I never once in my life let a ligetament reason stop me I just changed the venue and partied on.:jap:

drunks today are wimps

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Why has it not been shut down it was never about facts it was about dreams of the alcohol drinking people being thwarted by the ligament enforcing of the laws.

At or about 20 minutes to closing time get what you need invite your buddies and their rent a wives over to your place and continue on until you are done. I never once in my life let a ligetament reason stop me I just changed the venue and partied on.:jap:

I'd invite them over but I strongly suspect my wife would object.

Clearly though, anyone still capable of pronouncing 'legitimate' has a perfectly ligamintimate reason to keep drinking.

Edited November 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[muchogra]

Winnie, thanks for the elucidation on my speculations.

I sometimes enjoy talking to bar girls or women in similar professions. It's just less restrictive and can blow off some steam when feeling bit of uptight.

Whenever I'm up in CM I always stop at this clean bar (meaning no bar girls) in the moat area owned by an Issan lady who's got a German boyfriend. I would drink and chat and watch other people doing their things, sometimes stupid things. One time I saw a young farang yelling at a young Thai girl who came in with several young farangs. The Thai girl yelled back with typical Thai English. One of the farangs in the group took a Samsom bottle from the counter holding it behind his back waiting for more action from the guy who was yelling. I told the guy gently that he wouldn't need that since he got more guys. He obliged probably thinking I was the bar owner.

Then other times I saw these young people kissing and sticking their tongues out licking mustache like there were nobody around. How disgusting!

-----------------

Since Feb I've been up in CM every month except last month and this month. Every month it seems to have less tourists. Several taxi, tuk tuk, and song tael drivers attested to my observation. Most of them believe that this government would make more tourists to come visit Thailand because they have more business sense. I would be a fool to tell them it's tied more to the world economy than their reason, wouldn't I?

[heybruce]

To the people who are bemoaning the fact that Chiang Mai has changed in the last ten to twenty years--Can you name any place in the world that hasn't?

To those who used the term "idyllic" as a synonym for impoverished--Why do you think poor people should stay poor?

[uptheos]

Want business?

Demand or or pay the authorities for;

More bars, with more booze, with more whores that close whenever.

You watch tourism go through the roof.

Edited November 24, 2011 by uptheos

[DLock]

Winnie, thanks for the elucidation on my speculations.

I sometimes enjoy talking to bar girls or women in similar professions. It's just less restrictive and can blow off some steam when feeling bit of uptight.

Whenever I'm up in CM I always stop at this clean bar (meaning no bar girls) in the moat area owned by an Issan lady who's got a German boyfriend. I would drink and chat and watch other people doing their things, sometimes stupid things. One time I saw a young farang yelling at a young Thai girl who came in with several young farangs. The Thai girl yelled back with typical Thai English. One of the farangs in the group took a Samsom bottle from the counter holding it behind his back waiting for more action from the guy who was yelling. I told the guy gently that he wouldn't need that since he got more guys. He obliged probably thinking I was the bar owner.

Then other times I saw these young people kissing and sticking their tongues out licking mustache like there were nobody around. How disgusting!

-----------------

Since Feb I've been up in CM every month except last month and this month. Every month it seems to have less tourists. Several taxi, tuk tuk, and song tael drivers attested to my observation. Most of them believe that this government would make more tourists to come visit Thailand because they have more business sense. I would be a fool to tell them it's tied more to the world economy than their reason, wouldn't I?

Muchogra, you are fairly new I guess, but hang around some of the areas mentioned and you will see a lot more that some yelling or tongue kissing.

Kid, you aint seen nothing yet.