Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

[jeffinbangkok]

Have any other members had this problem and how did you solve it?

Bangkok Bank is telling me that they are not responsible for Tesco Express and Gold Swiss at Big C accepting obviously fraudulent signatures that looked nothing like my own signature on the back of my stolen Be 1st ATM Visa card.

The police translator described the signatures approved as "scribble" that did not even try to approximate my signature and have said Bangkok Bank should repay my account.

Visa International has said that they support me because the signatures were not mine and they were approved by the merchants and also by the bank/visa system.

Three tester POS transactions were made for approximately 100, 190 and 250. I have never made similar transactions in 10 years with Bangkok Bank. Also I have never been the the Pet Kasem part of town. Then there were higher transactions of approximately 3,100, 8,900, 24,040 also in the same part of town and Big C B'yom Yai. Never have ever been there.

This areas are now flooded. The transactions did occur the day before a business trip to the USA. I reported it the same day it happened to cancel the card and also reported it at the Lumpini Police Station an supplied the documents to Bangkok Bank.

Calls from the USA regarding the matter were frustrating. Visits to the General Manager, who although polite and affable, said he did not have the authority to approve the return of my monies. He forwarded documents to headquarters to the Compliance Officer. Before that I was told to go back to the police department which I did on two occasions. It seems that I am being given the "runaround." They say Thai Law negates the Visa Zero Liability policy which states that if the point of sale transaction was not signed by you then you do not have to pay.

Have spoken to a few Expats who have had the bank not honor ATM Pin Code thefts but none with this similar situation. Anyone out there have any words of advice?

[eyebee]

I had my TMB ATM card stolen a few years ago. Within 5 minutes the thieves had run up a bill of 56,000 baht in a local shop, even though the card said "for electronic use only". Bank denied responsibility, and police did very little (probably should have offered the copper a reward). After being very angry for a few days, I just used it as a learning experience. After all "it's only money" and "nobody die".

Edited November 20, 2011 by eyebee

[Beechboy]

I had my TMB ATM card stolen a few years ago. Within 5 minutes the thieves had run up a bill of 56,000 baht in a local shop, even though the card said "for electronic use only". Bank denied responsibility, and police did very little (probably should have offered the copper a reward). After being very angry for a few days, I just used it as a learning experience. After all "it's only money" and "nobody die".

I have never used a card to purchase in stores, my groceries and clothes buying etc. are always cash transactions. I am therefore pretty ignorant about all this. But then , I am not a permanent.

My question is: Has not "chip and pin" reached there yet?

It is a marvellous safeguard and would have prevented the above.

[Mario2008]

Moved to business section.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Sorry for the OP's hassle and headache here...

Generally speaking, the Thai banks have fraud policies that say YOU are responsible for anything that occurs with your card, stolen or not, until 5 minutes AFTER you formally report the problem to the bank. I know BKK Bank has their own policy on such things, and if you haven't seen or read it, you should ask them for a copy.

Also, the VISA "zero fraud" liability pledge is one that applies for U.S. issued cards... and doesn't apply at all for Thai bank issued cards that may carry the VISA logo.

AFAIK, you're pretty much on your own to haggle, hassle and negotiate with the bank on your lost funds. I don't believe there's any law or regulation, either Thai or based with VISA, that would require them to return your funds -- even if the police were able to actually arrest the thieves.

All of the above is one of the reasons I always recommend people who have the option use U.S.-issued bank cards that have no foreign currency fee when in Thailand. Even for transactions occurring in Thailand, the U.S. home country issuing bank must play by U.S. consumer fraud protection rules -- which are vastly better than Thailand's -- and the VISA card network fraud policy applies as well.

For those who must use Thai bank cards, I'd certainly recommend you set your Point of Sale daily limit very low...so as to limit the card's use in any 24 hour period. BKKB used to have a default limit on their Be1st cards of something like 500,000 baht, though I believe they've subsequently lowered their default amount. You can change your default POS limit through online banking.

There are a couple of BKK Bank staff members who are members here on TV.... so you might PM one of them to see if they can offer any additional help or advice. One is member "IanGuyGil"

Edited November 20, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The OP might also want to read this prior TV thread on the same topic...with particular attention to post #5 regarding BKK Bank.

[aurelius]

For those who must use Thai bank cards, I'd certainly recommend you set your Point of Sale daily limit very low...so as to limit the card's use in any 24 hour period. BKKB used to have a default limit on their Be1st cards of something like 500,000 baht, though I believe they've subsequently lowered their default amount. You can change your default POS limit through online banking.

Information above is not correct. You can change your card limit through the call center, but not through internet banking. Internet banking only controls settings for payment transactions and transfers conducted on internet banking itself. The default limit for cards now is 50,000Bt per day.

Bangkok Bank customers should enrol for the SMS alert service - can do this on the ATM - select "apply for service" from the first menu screen. This will send an alert for all card purchases, which, whilst not preventing fraud might at least alert one in the case of it happening.

Regarding the OP - I also understand that the bank says that cardholders are responsible for all transactions until 5 mins after the cardholder notifies them. Banks in some other countries have rules that are more like "customer is responsible for the first xx". I think this is intended to avoid the moral hazard where the brother/sister/cousin/whomever just takes the card and makes transactions and then denies all knowledge. The OP doesn't say how his card was lost/stolen, or why he didn't seem to realize it had gone??

[givenall]

I had my TMB ATM card stolen a few years ago. Within 5 minutes the thieves had run up a bill of 56,000 baht in a local shop, even though the card said "for electronic use only". Bank denied responsibility, and police did very little (probably should have offered the copper a reward). After being very angry for a few days, I just used it as a learning experience. After all "it's only money" and "nobody die".

I have never used a card to purchase in stores, my groceries and clothes buying etc. are always cash transactions. I am therefore pretty ignorant about all this. But then , I am not a permanent.

My question is: Has not "chip and pin" reached there yet?

It is a marvellous safeguard and would have prevented the above.

This is a reason why I have two account with only one withATM. i don't leave a lot of money in the account with ATM and when I want to use ATN with more money that I have in my account I transfer money electronically first then I withdraw funds with ATM

Edited November 20, 2011 by givenall

[tombkk]

Thanks for the warning about Bangkok Bank.

I had fraudulent bookings on my Visa and Amex cards before, and the amounts were always returned to me by the credit card company. This was in Taiwan and Europe though, not in Thailand.

Even though they admit that the signature isn't yours, Bangkok Bank still makes you pay. I find that hard to accept. Do they do the same with cheques? Anybody signs and they will pay and hold you responsible? What is a signature required for then?

[Forkinhades]

Used my credit card at Tesco, and they did not even look at the signature!

Homeworks have chip and pin, and you also have to sign

[tombkk]

Used my credit card at Tesco, and they did not even look at the signature!

Homeworks have chip and pin, and you also have to sign

Actually, I don't care whether the retailer checks the signature. If there is an item in the credit card statement that I dispute, the credit card company has to provide me with proof that I spent this money, i.e. a slip with my signature. It is therefore in the interest of the credit card companies to teach the retailers.

We just heard that Bangkok Bank does not play by the rules, i.e. they would make me pay even if they admit that it is not my signature. This just rules out Bangkok Bank as a trustworthy company to apply for a credit card with.

They will pay to anybody and bill back to me. Unbelievable, and actually undermining the whole concept of credit cards.

[hehehoho]

2 Thai Bank Accounts.

1 for small money, this has an ATM in my wallet.

1 for slightly bigger money, this has an ATM locked in my safe. Used to transfer money into the smaller personal account.

Neither are set up for internet banking.

All transactions are cash.

Proper money is kept well away from Thailand.

This country/region is a joke with regards to security, and just as bad with responsibility of such.

Edited November 20, 2011 by hehehoho

[Totster]

I thought VISA underwrite transactions, which is how they can refund fraudulent transactions ?

totster

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I thought VISA underwrite transactions, which is how they can refund fraudulent transactions ?

totster

From what I've been able to tell, the international VISA card network provides basically no meaningful consumer protection provisions in Thailand as relates to VISA logo credit card or debit card fraud.

I've called international VISA in the past and discussed it with them regarding Thailand. Their answer: it's up to the local policy of the card issuing bank.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For those who must use Thai bank cards, I'd certainly recommend you set your Point of Sale daily limit very low...so as to limit the card's use in any 24 hour period. BKKB used to have a default limit on their Be1st cards of something like 500,000 baht, though I believe they've subsequently lowered their default amount. You can change your default POS limit through online banking.

Information above is not correct. You can change your card limit through the call center, but not through internet banking. Internet banking only controls settings for payment transactions and transfers conducted on internet banking itself. The default limit for cards now is 50,000Bt per day.

Thanks Aurelius for correcting me on this. You're right. The online banking settings of BKK Bank only allow you to control/limits transfers and payments to third parties through online banking.

Here's what the BKK Bank online banking limit choices look like:

The setting of a limit on bank card POS transactions, and enabling SMS purchase notifications, is a separate issue that you'd think they'd also allow to be set via online banking, but they don't for some inexplicable reason.

In any case, under the circumstances, it's good advice to set BOTH the online banking limits and the bank card POS limits to be low enough to meet your banking needs while still protecting you against fraud.

Particularly because if a problem arises, you can expect NO help from VISA, and very little help from BKK Bank as regard anything that's happened prior to you reporting a card lost or stolen.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the warning about Bangkok Bank.

Tom, I wouldn't call it a warning just about BKK Bank. I'd call it a warning about pretty much all the Thai banks.

As far as I can tell, and in researching those bank policies that I could find, the various Thai banks all seem to have the same "until 5 minutes after you report" policy. There might be some exception to that, but if there is, I've yet to find it. The rule probably originated with some government or Bank of Thailand regulation, but I've never seen any info on the source of those policies.

Of course, the banks can exercise discretion and choose to do something apart from their policy. I've read some anecdotal reports here of people getting some funds back from their bank. But the policy seems to be the general rule. If someone does better than that, it would seem they're pretty fortunate.

[jackdawson]

Thanks for this post. It is extremely educational.

stolen Be 1st ATM Visa card

None of my business but how did your card get "stolen"?

Edited November 20, 2011 by jackdawson

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, someone asked the other day here in another thread about the notion of putting a large amount of funds into a Thai bank in order to earn a 3% or so interest rate that's better than he could get at present in his home country.

And there was a discussion in the thread about the various potential pitfalls with doing so....including reporting issues with the U.S. government for U.S. citizens, potential tax complications, the scheduled decline in Thai government bank deposit insurance for 2012 to 1 million baht per bank per depositor, and more to the point for this thread, the serious lack of meaningful consumer protections in the Thai banking industry.

Add to that the basic inability for a farang to expect any meaningful action by local law enforcement or civil litigation in the event of theft or fraud, and my ultimate conclusion was a person's money might be just as safe in U.S. mutual funds or similar non-bank investments outside Thailand. There are so many potential problems with the Thai system, it's really taking a risk.

By the way, since I mentioned it above, the Thai government bank deposits insurance program only applies in the event your Thai bank fails/goes out of business -- it doesn't provide any protection in the event your funds are lost due to theft or fraud.

[thrilled]

Ya have to be careful with thailand banks

[Pib]

Thanks for the warning about Bangkok Bank.

Tom, I wouldn't call it a warning just about BKK Bank. I'd call it a warning about pretty much all the Thai banks.

As far as I can tell, and in researching those bank policies that I could find, the various Thai banks all seem to have the same "until 5 minutes after you report" policy. There might be some exception to that, but if there is, I've yet to find it. The rule probably originated with some government or Bank of Thailand regulation, but I've never seen any info on the source of those policies.

Of course, the banks can exercise discretion and choose to do something apart from their policy. I've read some anecdotal reports here of people getting some funds back from their bank. But the policy seems to be the general rule. If someone does better than that, it would seem they're pretty fortunate.

Would agree...it's pretty much all Thai banks. Welcome to the Land of No-to-Little Consumer Protection. To the best of my knowledge there is no Thai law or Bank of Thailand regulation that provides any degree of customer protection regarding credit and debit cards...it's pretty much left up to the individual Thai banks to set their policy....and their policy seems to be within to protect the bank and not the customer.

I haven't used my Bangkok Bank Be1st debit card for a purchase for a long time since I use my U.S.-issued Capital One Mastercard which provides me protection under U.S. consumer protection laws and has a 0% foreign transaction fee with a 2% / 1% cash back feature, but when using any credit/debit card for purchases the check-out clerk rarely appears to compare signatures....once in a blue moon type thing. The great majority of the time they swipe the card and immediately hand the card back to me while the receipt for signature is still printing out of the POS machine.

Yeap, when it comes to Thai credit/debit cards you are at the mercy of the bank's policy....and that policy is really written to protect the bank; not the customer. TIT.

[lomatopo]

Is it still possible to get an ATM-only card from Bangkok Bank?

Is it possible to set daily limits on a Bangkok Bank account?

Is it possible to get internet banking on an existing Bangkok Bank account, without a Work Permit?

If your card is cloned, but not stolen, are you still responsible?

When I first moved here six years ago I got an ATM-only card at Bangkok Bank, but that card cracked and they gave me a BeFirst Visa debit card, which I never use.

I remember some threads/blogs were people were able to prove ( after a long, exhaustive process: police report, request ATM video ) the card was cloned and funds were replaced.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Is it still possible to get an ATM-only card from Bangkok Bank?

Is it possible to set daily limits on a Bangkok Bank account?

Is it possible to get internet banking on an existing Bangkok Bank account, without a Work Permit?

If your card is cloned, but not stolen, are you still responsible?

When I first moved here six years ago I got an ATM-only card at Bangkok Bank, but that card cracked and they gave me a BeFirst Visa debit card, which I never use.

I remember some threads/blogs were people were able to prove ( after a long, exhaustive process: police report, request ATM video ) the card was cloned and funds were replaced.

Loma, re your questions above...

--Last time I checked, BKKB was no longer issuing straight ATM cards, and only were issuing new cards as Be1st... However, they do allow the option of setting the POS limit amount for the card to zero.

What is my daily spending limit?

You can spend up to 150,000Bt per day or, if you want to limit your expenses you can choose to cap your daily spending at 20,000Bt, 50,000Bt, 100,000Bt, or 150,000Bt. Also can choose to set the spending limit at zero.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Be1st%20and%20ATM%20Cards/Be1st%20Card/Pages/Tell%20Me%20More.aspx#4

--You can enroll in Internet banking with them without having a work permit. See this web page re their info and requirements, which vary by a person's visa status:

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Online%20Banking/For%20Personal/iBanking/How%20to%20Apply/Pages/Default.aspx

--Re daily limits, you can set daily limits for online banking transactions -- funds transfers to 3rd parties and bill payments -- in the online banking settings menu. You can set transaction limits on the Be1st card itself with the bank, either in branch or via ATM, I believe.

--I don't know about the issue of what reimbursement would occur in the event of card cloning. They and the other Thai banks appear to be pretty bad when cards are stolen or lost... I'm not sure if the banks behave any better in documented cloning cases.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think this is a very telling omission...

BKKB has pages and pages of website info on account security, card security, online banking security, etc etc...

Even an entire page on info about what to do if one's card is lost or stolen.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=13&t=513620

But try to find mention of their policy where the cardholder is held responsible for all fraudulent transactions until 5 minutes after you've called to report the card, and you could spend a lifetime looking and never find it.

I found it once, buried in a terms and conditions document. But good luck in finding a prominent place on the BKKB web site where they make that detail clear to their customers.

But they do add the nice touch of also charging the card holder who's had their card lost or stolen a fee of 200 baht for the replacement card.

[tombkk]

Thanks for the warning about Bangkok Bank.

Tom, I wouldn't call it a warning just about BKK Bank. I'd call it a warning about pretty much all the Thai banks.

As far as I can tell, and in researching those bank policies that I could find, the various Thai banks all seem to have the same "until 5 minutes after you report" policy. There might be some exception to that, but if there is, I've yet to find it. The rule probably originated with some government or Bank of Thailand regulation, but I've never seen any info on the source of those policies.

Of course, the banks can exercise discretion and choose to do something apart from their policy. I've read some anecdotal reports here of people getting some funds back from their bank. But the policy seems to be the general rule. If someone does better than that, it would seem they're pretty fortunate.

I just don't get the thing with the signature: Why do we have to sign the slips at all? From what you are saying, my signature is worth nothing, it's just a waste of ink.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And you're expecting common sense or rationality here? Really???

They don't really care if YOU the cardholder sign the slip. They just care that someone signs the slip. Could be a monkey for all they care.

[lomatopo]

Thanks for the heads up and subsequent information. I'm off to my branch today.

[Pib]

Here's the typical credit/debit card signature verification process in Thailand. You hand the checkout clerk your card, they run it through the POS machine, and then either lay the card down or hand it back to you while the POS machine prints out the receipt for signature and your receipt. If the clerk didn't immediately hand you the card back right after swiping it, they will now have the card and your receipt in their hand as they watch you sign the receipt for signature. As you hand them back the signed receipt they hand you your card and receipt. Now if on some occasions you may notice they appear to glance down at your card as you were signing, well, they are probably not comparing signatures but only glancing at their fingernail polish.

Now, after saying above I will have to admit that "one" time, repeat, "one" time a clerk actually did a signature verification of sorts. It was at the Pinklao Tops Market a few months ago and the wife signed her name in Thai while her signature on the credit card was in English. The clerk caught this and asked her to sign again in English but even then didn't really compare the two signatures in English. Other than this one signature verification of sorts in all the hundreds of credit/debit card purchases the wife and I have done in Thailand, signature verification in Thailand is basically not accomplished. Why should it be accomplished since there is no real consumer protection laws....once the store has the signature on the receipt they are pretty much assured come hell or high water the payment will not be pulled by the bank if it was a stolen card. TIT

Edited November 22, 2011 by Pib

[ianguygil]

Is it still possible to get an ATM-only card from Bangkok Bank?

Is it possible to set daily limits on a Bangkok Bank account?

Is it possible to get internet banking on an existing Bangkok Bank account, without a Work Permit?

If your card is cloned, but not stolen, are you still responsible?

When I first moved here six years ago I got an ATM-only card at Bangkok Bank, but that card cracked and they gave me a BeFirst Visa debit card, which I never use.

I remember some threads/blogs were people were able to prove ( after a long, exhaustive process: police report, request ATM video ) the card was cloned and funds were replaced.

Loma, re your questions above...

--Last time I checked, BKKB was no longer issuing straight ATM cards, and only were issuing new cards as Be1st... However, they do allow the option of setting the POS limit amount for the card to zero.

What is my daily spending limit?

You can spend up to 150,000Bt per day or, if you want to limit your expenses you can choose to cap your daily spending at 20,000Bt, 50,000Bt, 100,000Bt, or 150,000Bt. Also can choose to set the spending limit at zero.

http://www.bangkokba...e%20More.aspx#4

--You can enroll in Internet banking with them without having a work permit. See this web page re their info and requirements, which vary by a person's visa status:

http://www.bangkokba...es/Default.aspx

--Re daily limits, you can set daily limits for online banking transactions -- funds transfers to 3rd parties and bill payments -- in the online banking settings menu. You can set transaction limits on the Be1st card itself with the bank, either in branch or via ATM, I believe.

--I don't know about the issue of what reimbursement would occur in the event of card cloning. They and the other Thai banks appear to be pretty bad when cards are stolen or lost... I'm not sure if the banks behave any better in documented cloning cases.

John, what is the deal with this new ID? Not using the JFCHANDLER any more?

Dave is out of the office until tomorrow. He can answer a lot of these questions for the OP and the points you have raised. Clearly the business practices in Thailand differ from those in the USA (after all, this is Thailand), but we are always interested in feedback from our customers. I think there are a few misconceptions here, and we need to explain the products so people understand the advantages of things like the Be1st Smart Card which cannot be skimmed (duplicated).

I will wait for Dave to get back tomorrow and I will ask him to get into this thread. Thank you

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If any info posted above is incorrect, I'd certainly be happy for someone from BKK Bank to correct and/or clarify it, especially as regards customer liability for charges occurring with lost or stolen BKKB cards.

Re Ian's comment above about the Be1st card and card skimming, note that the OP in this thread had a case of a lost or stolen card... not a skimmed one.

[lomatopo]

So I went to my BBL branch today. I was able to apply for Internet Banking, will have to wait and see if I get the snail-mails and emails.

Regarding setting the Be1st Visa Debit/ATM card daily spending limit to ZERO I'm not sure the service rep. really understood what I was asking. She kept referring back to changing my PIN to protect myself, even though that really only applies to ATM activity, I think. Do you use your PIN when making Visa debit purchase? Then when I mentioned using the card a Tesco she said yes, it would work. On the account screen it said "Daily Spending Limit EDC" and then a longish blank space. (I could see by daily ATM limits of 50,000 on the right-hand side of that screen.)

Does anyone know if those letters, EDC, mean that my daily spending limit is actually ZERO? Is there anyway to verify that my daily spending limit is actually ZERO? Would it be somehow illegal, or against the rules, to try and use my card for a purchase, just to see if it is denied? Or would this cause other problems?

Edited November 22, 2011 by lomatopo