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This Is Disgraceful

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This has been on U.K news over the last couple of days.

Report taken from http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16618.shtml

How can anyone say that because of the way a woman dresses or acts she is partly or full responsible for being raped? 34% of people think that this is the reason, surely people cant be that ignorant, can they?

UK: New poll finds a third of people believe women who flirt partially responsible for being rapedICM Poll Shows Widespread Ignorance Of Extent Of Rape And Low Conviction Rates :o

A new ICM opinion poll commissioned by Amnesty International indicates that a third (34%) of people in the UK believe that a woman is partially or totally responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner.

The poll, ‘Sexual Assault Research’, published today (21 November) as part of Amnesty International’s ‘Stop Violence Against Women’ campaign, shows that similar “blame culture” attitudes exist over clothing, drinking, perceived promiscuity, personal safety and whether a woman has clearly said “no” to the man.

For instance, more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.

Around one in 12 people (8%) believed that a woman was totally responsible for being raped if she’d had many sexual partners.

Similarly, more than a quarter of people (30%) said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and more than a third (37%) held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say “no” to the man.

Changes in the law relating to consent mean that an alleged rapist must show that they had taken reasonable steps to ensure that the other person had consented to sex. In this respect the poll exposes a gap between the law and public attitudes.

Amnesty International UK Kate Allen said: “This poll shows that a disturbingly large proportion of the public blame women themselves for being raped.

“It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist ‘blame culture’.”

The poll also shows that the vast majority of the British population has no idea how many women are raped every year in the UK, with 96% of those polled saying they either didn’t know the true extent of rape or that they thought it was far lower than the true figure.

Only 4% of respondents even thought the number of women raped exceeds 10,000 per year when the true figure is likely to be well in excess of 50,000:

Six out of seven people either said they didn’t know that only 5.6% of rapes reported to the police currently result in conviction or believed the conviction rate to be far higher.

The average estimate was of a 26% conviction rate, nearly fives times higher than the actual rate.

Kate Allen added:

“In addition to uncovering disturbing attitudes over women being ‘to blame’, this poll also reveals the scale of public ignorance of the unacceptably high numbers of women raped every year in the UK as well as the dreadfully low conviction rates.

“The government has an international duty to prevent this gross human rights violation yet it’s clear that the government’s policies on tackling rape are failing and failing badly.

“These findings should act as a wake-up call to the government to urgently tackle the triple problem of the high incidence of rape, low conviction rates and a sexist blame culture.”

South Essex Rape and Incest Crisis Centre (SERICC) Director Sheila Coates said:

“This poll shows that people don’t realise how common rape actually is and that there’s little understanding of how many people rape crisis groups actually support.

“Groups like ours are picking up an ever increasing number of helpline calls and waiting lists are growing. The situation for rape victims and women’s specialist sexual violence services are at critical.

“Those needing counselling face waiting lists of up to one year and this can only get worse as more rape crisis groups close or cut back services due to a lack of funding and government support. This situation has forced victims into a post code lottery when trying to find support.”

Amnesty International’s poll comes ahead of a new call on government later this week from a coalition of women’s organisations, Amnesty International and the TUC for an integrated government strategy to combating violence against women in all its forms in the UK, including sexual assault.

Amnesty International is also conducting local opinion polls on rape awareness and attitudes and calling on local politicians and community leaders to support the campaign for an integrated strategy to combat violence against women.

Later this week (Thursday 24) Amnesty International is also unveiling a new audio-visual art exhibition in the Bargehouse gallery on London’s South Bank, where artists and the public have contributed to a set of ‘imaginings’ of what a world without violence against women would mean and what it would look like.

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It would be interesting to do the same analysis on the women respondents only and the men respondents only.

daleyboy

from what i understood this was an english survey - and from a country , until recently it was ok to force your wife ( ligion ) to have sex with ? .... why is it suprising to you the results are such?

I am not blaming the poms ( thought they suck at sport :o ) but the problem of respect for a person is more widespread than the cold isles...

a person is a person whether they have a snatch or a c0ck.....

How can anyone say that because of the way a woman dresses or acts she is partly or full responsible for being raped? 34% of people think that this is the reason, surely people cant be that ignorant, can they?

What about a guy who goes out, gets drunk, goes into a shady part of town and gets mugged. Don't you think he is at least partly responible for acting stupid?

Not that it is any excuse for what happens to him.

I think it would be interesting to see exactly what questions were asked in this survey. Was it

"do you think a woman who dresses up deserves to be raped?"

or was it

"do you think a woman who dresses provocatively, goes out and gets drunk/high, flirts wildely around in the bar/disco/nightclub and then follows a complete stranger back to his place at 3 o'clock in the morning and gets raped should have known better?"

The article refers to "flirtatious manner" - What is that?

Please note that I am not trying to make excuses for rapists or muggers here, just pointing out that if you act stupid and suffer the consequences, you are at the very least partly responsible.

Had a mullah come out and say something very similar in Sydney recently.

What a crock of an excuse.

Skimpy clothes make certain types of people turn into sub human animals.

I dont think so,its just an excuse.

How can anyone say that because of the way a woman dresses or acts she is partly or full responsible for being raped? 34% of people think that this is the reason, surely people cant be that ignorant, can they?

What about a guy who goes out, gets drunk, goes into a shady part of town and gets mugged. Don't you think he is at least partly responible for acting stupid?

Not that it is any excuse for what happens to him.

I think it would be interesting to see exactly what questions were asked in this survey. Was it

"do you think a woman who dresses up deserves to be raped?"

or was it

"do you think a woman who dresses provocatively, goes out and gets drunk/high, flirts wildely around in the bar/disco/nightclub and then follows a complete stranger back to his place at 3 o'clock in the morning and gets raped should have known better?"

The article refers to "flirtatious manner" - What is that?

Please note that I am not trying to make excuses for rapists or muggers here, just pointing out that if you act stupid and suffer the consequences, you are at the very least partly responsible.

I am not blaming the poms ( thought they suck at sport  :D  )

What rhymes with lovely pearled cup

yeah .. ashes to ashes :o

I agree that the questions need to addressed, as does the demographic of those surveyed.

A few years ago there was a survey in France

"do you agree with the introduction of the Euro as the only currency in France?"

and there was a 80% approval

"do you agree that the French franc should be scrapped forever, in favour of the Euro"

and 90% against.

The surveyors, who were psychologists, were making the point that you can easily skew a survey and lead an answer.

Skimpy clothes make certain types of people turn into sub human animals.

I dont think so,its just an excuse.

You mean Australians are born that way.....?

  • Author
What about a guy who goes out, gets drunk, goes into a shady part of town and gets mugged.  Don't you think he is at least partly responible for acting stupid?

Not that it is any excuse for what happens to him.

Your right he probably is partly responsible for getting that drunk he cant control himself. And i also agree just because he is drunk he should still be safe to walk the streets.

But a woman being raped i think is something entirely different. A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped. It dosent matter how much she flirts, because thats exactly all it is flirting, nothing more. Also the way she dresses shouldnt matter, at the end of the day we should have self control, thats what seperates us from the animals.

But the survey isnt speaking to the rapists out there, just ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe from what people are saying that if they were put in a court on the jury and they were told the girl was flirting and was wearing a low cut top, that she deserved to be raped, and find the guy innocent.

All those who took part in the survey and said that she is partly responsible should be very ashamed of themselves.

To stumonster i think you have your facts wrong

Ashes-England win

Rugby world cup-England win

Tri nations tests-England win

recent boxing-England win

So tell me stu bad few years for the Aussies or what? :o

So tell me stu bad few years for the Aussies or what? :o

we're just teasing youse - if we didn't let youse win a few times , you'd all crack a sook and not play.... :D

  • Author

So tell me stu bad few years for the Aussies or what? :D

we're just teasing youse - if we didn't let youse win a few times , you'd all crack a sook and not play.... :D

:o i suppose you were just teasing the last 8 teams to beat the mighty wallabies :D

You mean Australians are born that way.....?

I hope not. My wife is married to an Australian.

  • Author
You mean Australians are born that way.....?

I hope not. My wife is married to an Australian.

Ohh dear poor lady :o

... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

Its true RDN, something most women have known about for a long time--lots of guys think any excuse will do.

Most women face the facts of life as teenagers: to always be aware, careful and wary. Sad but better than being a victim.

... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

He's just an excitable boy.

  • Author
... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

I am not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain please.

  • Author
... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

He's just an excitable boy.

And that comment is supposed to mean what exactly? :D

What about a guy who goes out, gets drunk, goes into a shady part of town and gets mugged.  Don't you think he is at least partly responible for acting stupid?

Not that it is any excuse for what happens to him.

Your right he probably is partly responsible for getting that drunk he cant control himself. And i also agree just because he is drunk he should still be safe to walk the streets.

But a woman being raped i think is something entirely different. A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped. It dosent matter how much she flirts, because thats exactly all it is flirting, nothing more. Also the way she dresses shouldnt matter, at the end of the day we should have self control, thats what seperates us from the animals.

But the survey isnt speaking to the rapists out there, just ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe from what people are saying that if they were put in a court on the jury and they were told the girl was flirting and was wearing a low cut top, that she deserved to be raped, and find the guy innocent.

First of all, nobody has said that women are asking for it, nor that they deserve to get raped. A third of the respondents said that women are partly or fully responsible when they get raped. I am shocked by the "fully responsible" part, but then again, we don't even now if any of the people surveyed actually agreed with that statement. I did however see an argument that in some cases (like I outlined above) the victim can be partly to blame.

Everybody has a responsibility to take care of themselves, and if you fail to do so, you have automatically increased your statistical chances of getting robbed/raped/hurt/killed/etc. You can (and should) blame (and punish to the full extent of the law) the perpetrator, but in many cases, the situation could have been avoided by the victim simply by using common sense. Not always, perhaps not even in most cases, but certainly in some cases.

Sorry for being so non-PC, but before anyone goes ballistic and calls me a male chaunistic pig (or worse), please note that I am not making excuses for rapists or other criminals here. The point I was trying to make was that when someone does something really stupid and then suffers the consequences, they are IMHO partly to blame.

And, just for the record - women dressing sexily and flirting are not doing anything stupid! In fact, it is exactly the kind of behavior I would like to encourage :o

Sorry - double posting - dunno how it happened, but I am sure I was partly responsible....

I think rape is despicable, regardless of the women's actions/dress.

If dressing provocatively and acting flirtatious were primary factors in women being raped, then a large percentage of the women in Thailand would be getting raped on a regular basis. (From what I see/hear in the local news, it isn't a common crie in Thailand, though it probably isn't reported and recorded in the same manner as in most western countries).

One problem I have with people using stats to back up stories, is that the numbers can be manipulated to show almost any result desired.

Poll only certain age groups, genders, races, in certain areas at select times, and you can limit the results to a more favourable reading.

Don't like the numbers ? Throw out the ones that hurt your case or show a result other than what you are looking for.

Still not working for you ? Try selecting questions worded slightly differently, and ask those questions to different sets of people based on age, race, gender and location.

Eventually you will end up with results that prove what ever point you are trying to make. Then you can go public with them and make it sound like it is the opinion of the whole (region/country what ever).

I also have a problem with the honesty of a small percentage of the people that claim to have been raped. I've seen numerous stories of girls/women having consensual sex and later reporting it as rape. I personally know a girl (young woman) who had consensual sex with a guy she met while on a training course far from home.

After she returned home, she found out she was pregnant. Suddenly (6 weeks later) she told her parents and friends that she must have been slipped that date-rape drug (she never reported it as a rape to the police though).

In another case, a girl had consenual sex with a guy, then later (out of guilt apparently) told her boyfriend that the guy had raped her.

He and a few of his buddies beat the living crap out of the guy, put him in the hospital in intensive care. Permamently scarred for life now. While he was in the hospital, the girl told the police the truth about what had happened (she was never charged with anything).

It is unfortunate that actual rape does happen, and those guilty of it should be hung by their nuts. My point is that the numbers (stats) don't tell the real truth very often.

... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

He's just an excitable boy.

And that comment is supposed to mean what exactly? :D

My comment means that it is easy to understand why you are so shocked about this...it is because you are easily excitable...if you would like me to explain in further detail I would be glad to oblige.

... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

He's just an excitable boy.

And that comment is supposed to mean what exactly? :D

My comment means that it is easy to understand why you are so shocked about this...it is because you are easily excitable...if you would like me to explain in further detail I would be glad to oblige.

And my comment earlier meant that I could not believe that you do not believe that there are people out there who believe that women are partly responsible. :D

I think rape is despicable, regardless of the women's actions/dress.

And I don't think anyone here will disagree.

One problem I have with people using stats to back up stories, is that the numbers can be manipulated to show almost any result desired.

Poll only certain age groups, genders, races, in certain areas at select times, and you can limit the results to a more favourable reading.

Don't like the numbers ? Throw out the ones that hurt your case or show a result other than what you are looking for.

Still not working for you ? Try selecting questions worded slightly differently, and ask those questions to different sets of people based on age, race, gender and location.

Eventually you will end up with results that prove what ever point you are trying to make. Then you can go public with them and make it sound like it is the opinion of the whole (region/country what ever).

To a certain extent you are right. That is why it is important to give all the information available, not selectively manipulate the findings.

E.g. "more than 95% of male farangs have eaten rice or raped minors." True, but meaningless.....

I also have a problem with the honesty of a small percentage of the people that claim to have been raped. I've seen numerous stories of girls/women having consensual sex and later reporting it as rape.

Which in my opinion is as much a crime as rape itself. Perhaps even worse. Not only do the jeopardize the life and future of an innocent person, but they also make it more difficult for actual rape victims to be taken seriously when reporting to the police.

  • Author
... A woman could never be found to be partly responsible for being raped....

....ordinary everyday folks, who 1/3 think the woman was asking for it, its this i find hard to stomach, i cant truly believe....

What I can't truly believe is that you are so shocked about this. :o

He's just an excitable boy.

And that comment is supposed to mean what exactly? :D

My comment means that it is easy to understand why you are so shocked about this...it is because you are easily excitable...if you would like me to explain in further detail I would be glad to oblige.

And my comment earlier meant that I could not believe that you do not believe that there are people out there who believe that women are partly responsible. :D

Fair enough rdn, i can believe that there are people out there that think like that, what i couldnt get my head around was the proportion of people that think like that, i thought maybe 1 or 2% but not 34 %. I would like to see the results of the survey , to see how many people were polled and who they were.Do you reckon it would be mainly blokes?

To Chow not sure why you think i am easily excitable, i was merely posting a topic that i thought would be of some interest to fellow members.Obviously not to you though.

This was in the news yesterday

Taken from bbc news

Jon Silverman looks at the implications of a case which collapsed after a woman who alleged she was raped told a court she had been too drunk to remember whether she had consented to sex.

The failure of one case at a crown court is not going to have a significant impact on the future course of rape prosecutions.

But it does underline the difficulties in this area of the law around the crucial issue of consent.

In law an unconscious person cannot give consent

The Sex Offences Act 2003 has made it considerably harder for a defendant to argue that he reasonably believed that a woman had consented to sex.

In cases where a woman can satisfy a jury that she was asleep or unconscious, the onus has shifted towards the man who has to prove otherwise.

However, that still leaves a considerable proportion of trials where alcohol is a factor and where the jury is offered two conflicting versions of events without any third party corroboration.

Intervene

Some, like Ruth Hall, of Women Against Rape, argue that the judge at Swansea Crown Court should have allowed the jury to reach a verdict.

"We know that in certain circumstances, where drink is involved, a man will often take advantage of a woman," she said.

But judges are obliged to intervene where a prosecution has failed to reach a certain evidential threshold, to protect the right to a fair trial of the defendant.

Some judges have expressed concern about the number of evidentially weak cases brought to court

CPS reviews consent row case

The Director of Public Prosecutions will want to know whether Mr Justice Roderick Evans made his ruling correctly.

Given that most rape trials come down to one person's word against another, the government is exploring ways of reinforcing the evidence given by a complainant.

A piece of CPS-sponsored research is looking at the use of expert witnesses to place in context behaviour or dress which may lead juries to disbelieve the word of a woman who has been raped.

Such expert testimony is admissible in other common law jurisdictions, including Canada, Australia and the US.

Improving the forensic quality of DNA evidence is also on the agenda.

False complaints

Fewer than 6% of rape allegations lead to a conviction. And in contested trials, the figure is even lower.

So do you think the girl is partly or fully to blame because she was so out of it on booze that she cant remember if she consented?

Once again we will never know, was this actually rape but just not enough evidence? Or is it 2 women trying to make some bucks from famous people?

Ronaldo will not face rape charge

Ronaldo attended the police station voluntarily

Manchester United footballer Cristiano Ronaldo will not face charges over allegations he raped a woman in a London hotel suite, police said.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has stated there is insufficient evidence to prosecute the Portuguese winger, said a Scotland Yard spokesman.

Ronaldo, 20, always denied the accusations about the alleged serious sexual assault in October.

He was quizzed last month after voluntarily attending a police station.

The Scotland Yard spokesman said: "The Metropolitan Police Service submitted a file to the CPS in November following allegations of a serious sexual assault at a central London hotel on October 2.

"We have been informed today by the CPS that there is insufficient evidence to charge.

"As such, the two men arrested during the course of this investigation will face no further action by police in connection with this matter."

Initially, two women made an allegation of rape, claiming that Ronaldo and another man took them back to a penthouse suite in the Sanderson Hotel in London after they met at a nightspot.

One of the women later withdrew her allegations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4468628.stm

Your guess is as good as mine or anybody else's Mr.Bo-J... it's a hel_l of a weapon to use against somebody, if it is not true. Just mentioning a person in the media in connection with rape means there will be threats, phonecalls and sometimes even stalkers against the person. Which I suppose they deserve if they really did rape somebody - the problem is when they didnt...

And men always come up with the stories of the girl who lied in order to justify their attitudes. I would suspect that there are far more women who are raped and are telling the truth than ones who lie about it. No statistics, just personal experience. Of course you guys all here the stories about the poor lad who was set up but very rarely do you hear about the poor girl who was drugged and raped. We all hear the stories we want to hear, I suspect.

sbk.....I would love to make a comment here but unfortunately I am not allowed to due to my employment restrictions.

My only point was that we all hear the stories that fit our preconceived notions.

Men seem to remember the false accusations far better than they remember real events. Women tend to believe an accuser rather than immediately assume a lie simply because women can empathize with how truly horrible it must be.

2 questions for the people to ponder;

If a women is so drunk that she can't remember if she gave consent or not then is it considered rape if a sober man take advantage of her inebriated state and has sex with her?

If a straight man is so drunk that he can't remember if he gave consent, is it considered rape if a gay man took advantage of his inebriated state & had sex with him?

Everyone needs to take care of themselves & if someone gets so drunk that they can't remeber where/who they are or what they are doing then they need to take some responsibility if something bad happens. BUT if a person sees a girl/guy completely out of it & decideds to take advantage of them then they shouldn't go unpunished. This also applies to mugging, ripping people off & attacking (fighting)

There has to be something fundamentally wrong with a person who would have sex with someone so drunk that they didn't know it was happening. :o

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