Political Prisoners, Including Arisman, To Be Moved To New Facility

[webfact]

POLITICS

Political prisoners to be moved to new facility

The Nation

Some 100 remand political prisoners, including new inmate red-shirt leader Arisman Pongruangrong, would be moved to the Laksi holding centre, a new facility designed to detain the red shirts and others facing politically related charges, director-general Suchart Wong-ananchai said yesterday.

Arisman surrendered on Tuesday after taking refuge in Cambodia for more than one year. He faces many political charges, including terrorism, for his role in provoking the red-shirt protests against the previous government last year.

The court denied his bail request on the ground that he was a flight risk.

His lawyer, Karom Poltaklang, said he would try to make another plea for Arisman's bail next week. Next time, the bail guarantee would be increased to Bt2 million, together with a pledge by Arisman's wife Rapeepan Pongruangrong, who is a member of Parliament, the lawyer said.

The lawyer believed that the court would accept the plea as many other red leaders, who had also fled from the charge, were earlier freed on bail.

Suchart said the new holding centre will be inaugurated on December 20 and the red shirts held in remand would move in the following day. The separation of the red shirts from the regular remand population is being implemented in accordance with the report from the Truth for Reconciliation Commission, he said.

The holding centre, located in Bangkok's Lak Si, previously served as a centre for the Border Patrol Police.

Under an agreement with the Justice Ministry, police agreed to turn over the site as a temporary holding facility for those under remand due to their political struggle.

Arisman's wife Rapeepan, who visited him in the Bangkok Remand Prison yesterday, said the red leader was able to adjust himself to the cell conditions after the first night in prison.

He could not sleep well the first night due to the crowded conditions in the cell, but he would be better later when he becomes familiar with the cell and other inmates, she said.

Arisman decided to turn himself in to the authorities as the red shirt-backed government took the helm, expecting lenient treatment.

He said earlier that his surrender was to show national reconciliation.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said all concerned parties have to help create the atmosphere for reconciliation. "We might have a difference of opinion, but it's not necessary for us to be divided," she said.

Asked if her brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, would return to face justice soon, Yingluck said the reconciliation atmosphere mostly depends on unity, equality, rule of law and fairness for all.

Asked if the government would use its power to help Arisman, Yingluck said there are principles and the rule of law for the government and concerned parties to follow.

-- The Nation 2011-12-09

[Buchholz]

He could not sleep well the first night due to the crowded conditions in the cell, but he would be better later when he becomes familiar with the cell and other inmates, she said.

Communal showering does tend to bring them closer together.

.

[Buchholz]

I don't see mentioned in the article how the Corrections Dept. boss will avoid problems between the two groups at the unique prison after the incarcerated yellow shirts are transferred to the new facility.

How will the red/yellow groups be separated from one another there?

Additionally, if they are only moving 100 prisoners, it doesn't seem like all the red shirts will be able to be transferred after the 84 yellow shirts currently imprisoned are transferred there.

(I'm presuming Corrections Dept. will move the first convicted there first, which would not leave any spot open for the just recently arrived and un-convicted yet Arisaman).

.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[OzMick]

I don't see mentioned in the article how the Corrections Dept. boss will avoid problems between the two groups at the unique prison after the incarcerated yellow shirts are transferred to the new facility.

How will the red/yellow groups be separated from one another there?

Additionally, if they are only moving 100 prisoners, it doesn't seem like all the red shirts will be able to be transferred after the 84 yellow shirts currently imprisoned are transferred there.

(I'm presuming Corrections Dept. will move the first convicted there first, which would not leave any spot open for the just recently arrived and un-convicted yet Arisaman).

.

OP states remand prisoners - not yet convicted.

Nice that he is accustomed to his cell - may he have many years to enjoy it! OTOH, i wouldn't complain about a quick execution.

[renaissanc]

I think that Arisman has made a gross miscalculation. Thankfully, and to my surprize, Thaksin doesn't seem to control the courts. If he did, he'd be an innocent man by now. Arisman is now at the mercy of the legal system. I think Thaksin has lured him into a trap to get him put into jail as part of his strategy to get rid of the extremist Red Shirt leaders and thereby improve his image. Other Red Shirt leaders will surely follow Arisman into jail over the coming months. "Thank you for helping me. Now, into the rubbish bin you go!" If you work for a semi-dictator, you should expect this.

[khaowong1]

Any one got any photo's of this new place?

[AleG]

Political prisoners? What???

Let's see the definition of "Political Prisoner"

someone who is in prison because they have opposed or criticized the government of their own country

Exactly who is imprisoned now under those terms?

[pimay11]

"but he would be better later when he becomes familiar with the cell and other inmates, she said".

And to think this woman is one of the leaders of this government. The lights are on but no one's at home.

[rixalex]

Asked if her brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, would return to face justice soon, Yingluck said the reconciliation atmosphere mostly depends on unity, equality, rule of law and fairness for all.

Asked if she would eat rice this evening, Yingluck said that dinner was a common and popular custom, and that the atmosphere for such an occasion mostly depends on lighting, location, mood, good conversation and amiability of those engaged in repast.

[Buchholz]

Political prisoners? What???

Let's see the definition of "Political Prisoner"

someone who is in prison because they have opposed or criticized the government of their own country

Exactly who is imprisoned now under those terms?

According to the Red Shirts, all the Red Shirts are imprisoned now under those terms.

.

[rixalex]

Under an agreement with the Justice Ministry, police agreed to turn over the site as a temporary holding facility for those under remand due to their political struggle.

There was me thinking they were under remand due to suspicion of having broken the law.

[nicknostitz]

Political prisoners? What???

Let's see the definition of "Political Prisoner"

someone who is in prison because they have opposed or criticized the government of their own country

Exactly who is imprisoned now under those terms?

According to the Red Shirts, all the Red Shirts are imprisoned now under those terms.

.

Not just according to the Red Shirts. Here the relevant parts of the just released second interim report of the by the previous government installed Truth for Reconciliation Commission:

5.3 TRCT believes that political conflict that has occurred in the past was a

significant factor in later violence and violation of criminal law by various parties. The

violence and violation of criminal law that occurred cannot be considered as normal social

behavior without such political conflict because the violation is fundamentally based upon

political perspectives. Hence, even if such illegal behavior affects and harms individuals and

the public and requires that perpetrators be held legally accountable, criminal responsibility

and criminal punishment may not conform to the punishment philosophy and may not

render justice and contribute to solving the conflict. Perpetrators who have political motives

are different from common criminals who are essentially villains and criminals. Punishment

for this type of violent behavior may not result in deterring the perpetrators themselves or

the entire public according to the common philosophy of punishment. Moreover, the

prosecution of criminal cases related to political conflict may encounter problems because

of limitations of the investigation process, accusations, and the gathering of evidence and

witnesses viewed as being impartial, as well as bias for the advantage of those who control

state power in each period.

TRCT sees the prosecution of criminal cases according to the Royal Decree on

Public Administration in Emergency Situations B.E. 2548 (2005), the offence of unlawful

assembly of ten or more persons under Section 215 of Criminal Code, and other relevant

cases relating to incidents of political violence before and after the 19 September 2006

coup including cases of lèse majesté under Section 112 of Penal Code and Computer

Related Crime Act B.E. 2550 (2007) as all being related to political conflict. The government

should thus proceed with the prosecution of such offences as follows:

5.3.1 Clarify whether the accusation and the prosecution against accused

persons or defendants are consistent with the circumstances and consider whether the

accusation is unduly harsh or the evidence too weak to prove guilt.

5.3.2 Proceed in earnest with the temporary release of detainees as this is a

fundamental right of accused persons and defendants. Temporary release will enable

accused persons and defendants to prepare their defense and reduce the effects of

restriction of freedom on themselves and their families. The relevant authorities, such as

investigating officers and prosecutors, should file petitions with the court providing

information relating to accused persons and defendants, whether or not there is a risk that

they will abscond, a reason to destroy evidence or a reason to cause harm to society if a

temporary release is granted. If no such reasons exist, the legal principle protecting the

fundamental right to temporary release of accused persons and defendants should be

affirmed. With regard to temporary release, although Section 110 of the Criminal Procedure

Code does not require bail, it has been the practice of agencies within the justice system to

require bail. This practice is not in accordance with legal principles and has caused

substantial damage to the justice system. It has opened the door to "professional bailers",

illegal in the justice system, to take advantage of detainees whose rights and freedoms have

been withheld. Likewise, an "insurance company" also takes advantage. Permission for an

"insurance company" to gain advantage in this manner originated from a government policy

in one era which lacked understanding of the legal principle. However, the solution to the

root cause of the problem, which is a correct understanding of the legal principle, cannot be

brought about at this time because this problem involves legal education and a change in

perspective of those applying the law. In a case where the court allows temporary release

on bail, it is right that the government should provide such bail to all accused persons and

defendants who are not able to provide it. It should be noted that harsh accusations

against an accused is no reason for not allowing temporary release according to the law.

5.3.3 Accused persons and defendants are not villains or criminals as in regular

criminal cases but are accused of committing an offence in order to achieve political goals.

Therefore, if accused persons and defendants are not granted temporary release, the

government should arrange for their detention in an appropriate place, not in a common

prison as has been the case in the past.

5.3.4 These cases are related to the ongoing political conflict over the past few

years. The perpetrators have political motivations and the ongoing conflict is rooted in the

transition of Thai society. Therefore, the principle of criminal justice which uses criminal

prosecution measures and punishment is not appropriate for the current situation in our

country. It is thus appropriate to study and apply the theories of transitional justice and

restorative justice in order to properly apply their principles and methods. This will enable

Thailand to learn from the experience of foreign countries that have encountered severe

conflicts.

While studying how to properly apply various measures to the conflict situation

in Thailand, prosecutors should be requested to cooperate by delaying prosecution of these

cases and by not taking them to court until collection of the relevant information is

complete – correct and reliable information concerning circumstances of the case, overall

information regarding the causes of the problem, and information on academic principles

pertaining to legal measures under the framework of transitional justice and restorative

justice. This will benefit prosecutors and the public and will enable us to decide on

appropriate measures before the cases come to court.

[Buchholz]

Political prisoners? What???

Let's see the definition of "Political Prisoner"

someone who is in prison because they have opposed or criticized the government of their own country

Exactly who is imprisoned now under those terms?

According to the Red Shirts, all the Red Shirts are imprisoned now under those terms.

Not just according to the Red Shirts. Here the relevant parts of the just released second interim report of the by the previous government installed Truth for Reconciliation Commission:

They don't mention the plethora of provincial hall Red Shirt arsonists, the members of the elite Red Shirt Bomber Squad, nor the Greater Metropolitan Red Shirt Grenade Launcher Association of Bangkok.

As said, ALL Red Shirts...

.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Buchholz

[Oberkommando]

And to think this woman is one of the leaders of this government. The lights are on but no one's at home.

To be fair, they are all pretty dim.

[rixalex]

Not just according to the Red Shirts. Here the relevant parts of the just released second interim report of the by the previous government installed Truth for Reconciliation Commission:

<snipped for brevity>

What a lot of nonsense. Crime is crime, and even if you wanted to give special and preferential treatment on the basis of fighting for some political cause, first you would have to prove that that was the real motivation, and how do you do that? Answer is you can't, without getting inside people's heads. Were red shirts who received money at the protests, there for the money or for what they believed? My guess would be some were there simply for the money, some were there simply because they believed in the cause, and others were there for both money and cause, but how do we determine this on an individual basis. Again, the answer is we can't.

If i break into someone's house and steal some Chinese made appliances, i get caught, and then claim that i was about to burn them in protest at the Chinese government, on behalf of the people of Tibet, does that then allow me special treatment by the law? If it does, every criminal unfortunate enough to get caught, with a little imagination, should be able to attach a political cause to their "misdeed" that then grants them some degree of leniency.

One law for all. No exceptions. I'm sure the red shirts, who are, we are told, fighting against double standards, would agree, would they not?

[TAWP]

Burning down a house = bad.

Burning down a house because you worship a stone/are a communist/believe in moon-people/hate some political figure/hate some historical figure/in general dislike others that have it betters or just had a bad day = OK - and will be given location in a special prison for 'political prisoners'.

*sigh*

[jeanelie]

Who calls the Thai jails ... a facility?

[nicknostitz]

They don't mention the plethora of provincial hall Red Shirt arsonists, the members of the elite Red Shirt Bomber Squad, nor the Greater Metropolitan Red Shirt Grenade Launcher Association of Bangkok.

As said, ALL Red Shirts...

.

I understand that the report of which i have just posted a section relevant to the topic here uses a lot of big words, but i would still suggest to take the time and read it again. The TRCT is not a Red Shirt organization - it is a neutral body staffed with some of the foremost experts in the legal field here, supported also by foreign experts, to investigate and issue recommendations based on their investigations, to find a peaceful resolution to Thailand's ongoing conflict.

The commission has been installed by the Abhisit government, and continues under this government.

But of course our Thaivisa experts know better...

[rubl]

I understand that the report of which i have just posted a section relevant to the topic here uses a lot of big words, but i would still suggest to take the time and read it again. The TRCT is not a Red Shirt organization - it is a neutral body staffed with some of the foremost experts in the legal field here, supported also by foreign experts, to investigate and issue recommendations based on their investigations, to find a peaceful resolution to Thailand's ongoing conflict.

The commission has been installed by the Abhisit government, and continues under this government.

But of course our Thaivisa experts know better...

The problem with labeling activities as 'politically motivated' is that most are not clearly black or white. What about the 'troubles down-South'? Should all be labeled as 'politically motivated'? Is asking for prosecution of anyone politically motivated?

The commission still has a lot of work to do, I'm afraid

[phiphidon]

They don't mention the plethora of provincial hall Red Shirt arsonists, the members of the elite Red Shirt Bomber Squad, nor the Greater Metropolitan Red Shirt Grenade Launcher Association of Bangkok.

As said, ALL Red Shirts...

.

I understand that the report of which i have just posted a section relevant to the topic here uses a lot of big words, but i would still suggest to take the time and read it again. The TRCT is not a Red Shirt organization - it is a neutral body staffed with some of the foremost experts in the legal field here, supported also by foreign experts, to investigate and issue recommendations based on their investigations, to find a peaceful resolution to Thailand's ongoing conflict.

The commission has been installed by the Abhisit government, and continues under this government.

But of course our Thaivisa experts know better...

And just out of interest, from the same committee I understand, there was this regarding the "tag" of terrorists - I wonder what influence this might have vis a vis certain insurance payouts?

http://www.nationmul...s-30166395.html

[kimamey]

Asked if her brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, would return to face justice soon, Yingluck said the reconciliation atmosphere mostly depends on unity, equality, rule of law and fairness for all.

Asked if she would eat rice this evening, Yingluck said that dinner was a common and popular custom, and that the atmosphere for such an occasion mostly depends on lighting, location, mood, good conversation and amiability of those engaged in repast.

Brilliant

[AleG]

I understand that the report of which i have just posted a section relevant to the topic here uses a lot of big words, but i would still suggest to take the time and read it again. The TRCT is not a Red Shirt organization - it is a neutral body staffed with some of the foremost experts in the legal field here, supported also by foreign experts, to investigate and issue recommendations based on their investigations, to find a peaceful resolution to Thailand's ongoing conflict.

The commission has been installed by the Abhisit government, and continues under this government.

But of course our Thaivisa experts know better...

The argumentation of that report is bizarre, to put it mildly.

"Perpetrators who have political motives are different from common criminals who are essentially villains and criminals." That's a good one, I bet Bin Laden is kicking himself in hell for not thinking of that.

Are we to expect that those who fired grenades at Sala Daeng should be forgiven and forgotten, 'cause you know, it was just a manifestation of political discourse. Or the Black Shirts that shot at the army at Democracy monument, a political statement, all fair.

Strange sort of democracy that would lead up to, when destroying property, injuring and killing people is fair if done for political motives, I bet elections would be a riot.

[nicknostitz]

The argumentation of that report is bizarre, to put it mildly.

"Perpetrators who have political motives are different from common criminals who are essentially villains and criminals." That's a good one, I bet Bin Laden is kicking himself in hell for not thinking of that.

Are we to expect that those who fired grenades at Sala Daeng should be forgiven and forgotten, 'cause you know, it was just a manifestation of political discourse. Or the Black Shirts that shot at the army at Democracy monument, a political statement, all fair.

Strange sort of democracy that would lead up to, when destroying property, injuring and killing people is fair if done for political motives, I bet elections would be a riot.

When you mention Sae Daeng and Red Shirt militants, you have to mention in the same breath human rights violations of the military, wrongful arrests, documented cases of torture by security forces committed against Red Shirts, etc.

Anyhow, neither the approach of the TRCT, nor its argumentation is bizarre.If you care to read up on the Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa, you can see that this approach has a precedent, and in a country which over a much longer period of time experienced a conflict with incomparably worse human rights violations than here in Thailand, so far.

[nicknostitz]

I understand that the report of which i have just posted a section relevant to the topic here uses a lot of big words, but i would still suggest to take the time and read it again. The TRCT is not a Red Shirt organization - it is a neutral body staffed with some of the foremost experts in the legal field here, supported also by foreign experts, to investigate and issue recommendations based on their investigations, to find a peaceful resolution to Thailand's ongoing conflict.

The commission has been installed by the Abhisit government, and continues under this government.

But of course our Thaivisa experts know better...

The problem with labeling activities as 'politically motivated' is that most are not clearly black or white. What about the 'troubles down-South'? Should all be labeled as 'politically motivated'? Is asking for prosecution of anyone politically motivated?

The commission still has a lot of work to do, I'm afraid

The conflict in the south is not part of what the TRCT is doing.

But if you ask, yes, the deaths related to the insurgency (which is an estimated 50% to 70% of the overall death toll, the remainder are related to crime, local politics and personal conflicts) are in that sense politically motivated. The closest related conflict to the conflict in the three provinces was the Aceh conflict, and it has been solved via amnesties for all, and a negotiated autonomy for Aceh.In some variation this will also one day have to be applied to the South, though the biggest difficulty is that a large minority of the population down the is Buddhist, and it will not be easy to find a way that can accommodate both ethnic groups and religions in the region.

[siampolee]

The Justice Ministry is preparing to follow the advice of the reconciliation committee, which includes changing the "terrorism" charges against red shirts to "criminal association".

Justice Ministry spokesman Thirachai Wuthitham, who is also secretary to the minister, said the Cabinet had assigned Deputy Prime Minister and Interior Minister Yongyuth Wichaidit to chair the rehabilitation panel with Justice Minister Pol General Pracha Promnok as his deputy. The ministry has ordered all related agencies to be ready to follow the proposals of the Truth for Reconciliation Commission, which includes changing terrorism charges against the red shirts to "Ang Yi" or criminal association.

It would seem from the above quote that already the course of justice is "meandering"' due to governmental interference in the affairs of the T.R.C.T.

Indeed it is an amazing sight to see how the truth is manipulated to suit the agenda of a political party and that manipulation is swallowed by gullible left wing hacks of the fourth estate.

Those who are incarcerated due to their activities are but throwaway pawns in the ongoing power struggle by the assorted vested interests who climbed onto the back of a worthy political cause then hi-jacked for their own self serving ends.

Beware of the smile on the face of the tiger.

[webfact]

Abhisit Opposes Transfer Of Red-Shirt Prisoners To Separate Facility

Follow this link:

[AleG]

When you mention Sae Daeng and Red Shirt militants, you have to mention in the same breath human rights violations of the military, wrongful arrests, documented cases of torture by security forces committed against Red Shirts, etc.

Anyhow, neither the approach of the TRCT, nor its argumentation is bizarre.If you care to read up on the Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa, you can see that this approach has a precedent, and in a country which over a much longer period of time experienced a conflict with incomparably worse human rights violations than here in Thailand, so far.

So because of those violations it's OK to bomb civilians, right.

[Buchholz]

They don't mention the plethora of provincial hall Red Shirt arsonists, the members of the elite Red Shirt Bomber Squad, nor the Greater Metropolitan Red Shirt Grenade Launcher Association of Bangkok.

As said, ALL Red Shirts...

I understand that the report of which i have just posted a section relevant to the topic here uses a lot of big words, but i would still suggest to take the time and read it again. The TRCT is not a Red Shirt organization - it is a neutral body staffed with some of the foremost experts in the legal field here, supported also by foreign experts, to investigate and issue recommendations based on their investigations, to find a peaceful resolution to Thailand's ongoing conflict.

The commission has been installed by the Abhisit government, and continues under this government.

I understand my post might perhaps be difficult to understand for ESL'ers, but I never said anything negative about the committee as you infer. I simply stated that while they specifically addressed the illegal assembly of more than 3 people could be construed by them as political crime, they didn't address the violent acts by Red Shirts.

I also think they have put out some good information, like finding that much of the current difficulty all derives from inappropriate judicial judgements concerning Thaksin.

The root cause of violent events in Thailand...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=517781&view=findpost&p=4900662

[Buchholz]

Asked if her brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, would return to face justice soon, Yingluck said the reconciliation atmosphere mostly depends on unity, equality, rule of law and fairness for all.

Asked if she would eat rice this evening, Yingluck said that dinner was a common and popular custom, and that the atmosphere for such an occasion mostly depends on lighting, location, mood, good conversation and amiability of those engaged in repast.

Brilliant

Agreed. She's the Poster Child for Obfuscation.

.

[TAWP]

The argumentation of that report is bizarre, to put it mildly.

"Perpetrators who have political motives are different from common criminals who are essentially villains and criminals." That's a good one, I bet Bin Laden is kicking himself in hell for not thinking of that.

Are we to expect that those who fired grenades at Sala Daeng should be forgiven and forgotten, 'cause you know, it was just a manifestation of political discourse. Or the Black Shirts that shot at the army at Democracy monument, a political statement, all fair.

Strange sort of democracy that would lead up to, when destroying property, injuring and killing people is fair if done for political motives, I bet elections would be a riot.

When you mention Sae Daeng and Red Shirt militants, you have to mention in the same breath human rights violations of the military, wrongful arrests, documented cases of torture by security forces committed against Red Shirts, etc.

No we don't, since we are talking about prisoners, not actions done by other people in a conflict.

Ofcourse since your aim here is to push agenda it is clear why you have to mention it.

I have now given you a week of thinking - do you still think Marshall is an excellent reporter and what he says is beyond reproach?