Queueing Etiquette

[pauljones]

I decided to jump the que one time and the Thai became indignant.

They know what a que is.

When it happens to me, I let them and the cashier know about it.

[tropo]

Queueing is a peculiarly British trait...

Surely you're not serious?

It's a trait all over the world, it's just that some people ignore it. The only difference is that in Thailand queue jumpers often get away with it whereas back in our respective home countries it isn't possible - an ugly scene would always ensue.

I have more trouble with Russians pushing in than Thais. No one ever pushes in front of me these days.

[tropo]

I may have been tempted, were I frustrated at the time I had been waiting, to tap him on the shoulder, and say "There's a queue here, mate". THough the English would have been lost on him, I am fairly sure he would have understood the sentiment.

I've used a different technique a few times in the past and it was never misunderstood. I grabbed the queue jumpers shirt and pulled him back.

[tropo]

Either way, hardly anyone outside the UK has much idea about queuing unless they get a numbered ticket when they come in.

It's hard to believe that you could say this.

You need to travel a bit. There's a whole world outside the UK which queues.

I've never set foot in the UK yet (never will) but I've been queuing up for service all over the world.

[simon43]

If someone queue-jumps in front of me, I've given up trying to politely tell them that there is a queue. I just physically push in front of them again without saying anything.

That seems to work fine and gets the message across.

I think I'd be at home in China

Simon

[tropo]

If someone queue-jumps in front of me, I've given up trying to politely tell them that there is a queue. I just physically push in front of them again without saying anything.

That seems to work fine and gets the message across.

I think I'd be at home in China

Simon

That's about the best technique.

Despite all this bickering and shoving in queues here I often let people with one or two items to go ahead of me if I have a basket full... and Thais are always appreciative of this gesture.

I think it's a case of a few giving the rest a bad name.

[mca]

I also share a later view that many Thais lack spacial awareness

Ain't dat da truth!

Edited December 13, 2011 by mca

[tropo]

I also share a later view that many Thais lack spacial awareness

Ain't dat da truth!

They don't lack spacial awareness, they just don't require or demand as much space.

[Ulysses G.]

In some situations, I think they prefer to be close to other humans and these are situations that many Westerners prefer more space. In the changing room at the gym, Thais will often choose a locker right by another person when the rest of the room is empty.

In a restaurant, they will sit right behind you, even though there is no one else in the place. It drives me crazy personally, but a lot less than when another farang is doing it.

[Fookhaht]

In some situations, I think they prefer to be close to other humans and these are situations that many Westerners prefer more space. In the changing room at the gym, Thais will often choose a locker right by another person when the rest of the room is empty.

In a restaurant, they will sit right behind you, even though there is no one else in the place. It drives me crazy personally, but a lot less than when another farang is doing it.

Ulysses's observations (and Tropo's post) hit the nail on the head.

In a Thai university, I teach "Proxemics:" It is the social science of spatial perception among various cultures and societies. Believe, me the Asian perception of space is much different than the western notion.

All this talk about "queue-jumping" is amusing, because it shows such culture-colored glasses are being worn. In Thailand, you can't jump something that doesn't exist (in the offender's mind)!

Thais, like most Asians will fill any available space, regardless of their surroundings (witness the crazy antics in traffic). If you are standing dutifully in a "queue" (your western perception), and there is a half-meter of space at the counter next to the person who is being served, the Thai person will fill that space if you don't. It's a natural reaction, and they've done it all their lives.

Any occasional semblance of a "queue" is simply Thais being uncharacteristically more conscious of western notions of politeness which they consider "hi-so," and desirable. (Witness the cumbersome use of forks and knives to eat chicken wings at KFC). Many, many Thais are still unaware of that western norm, however, and these are the ones, who in your mind, jump the nonexistent "queue." In nine years, I have witnessed Atlanta-based 7-11's being a definite "western" influence, gradually changing Thais' perception toward western norms. It appears they actually train some or all of of their staff to serve people chronologically, not spatially. I've often seen them deliberately ignore the person who pushes in front of others waiting longer. It goes against their grain, but many staff grit their teeth and follow through. Obviously, uncomfortable doing it, but their training shows!

Final words of advice. Chill out, Dorothy. You're not in Kansas anymore where they queue up to get into the storm cellar. (Or chill out, Clive, you're not in the pastie shop's queue, waiting to buy your favorite steak & kidney delight). Consider even "filling the space" yourself; no one will look down on you, and the Thais will admire you for your "Thai-ness."

Edited December 13, 2011 by Fookhaht

[GuestHouse]

I don't buy this apologist crap that Thais don't understand queues.

I'd advise people to take the time to watch Thais in queuing situations and pay particular attention when Thais further up the pecking order approach a queue - The queue at the local bank near our office is as good as an example as any.

Too many times I've seen a Thai wearing a suit approach and orderly queue of factory workers and walk straight to the front of the queue.

On one such occasion I was standing in line when exactly that happened - wearing my work overalls I'm certain the Thai guy in the suit simply saw a line of people who do not matter.

When I spoke to him and told him there's a place for him at the back of the queue, he came out with 'Sorry I didn't see you there' - Like 10 people, who did he not see? Someone who might not put up with his queue jumping.

So he returns to his car, waits for me to clear the queue and then steps right back at the front of the queue again.

[Fookhaht]

I don't buy this apologist crap that Thais don't understand queues.

I'd advise people to take the time to watch Thais in queuing situations and pay particular attention when Thais further up the pecking order approach a queue - The queue at the local bank near our office is as good as an example as any.

Too many times I've seen a Thai wearing a suit approach and orderly queue of factory workers and walk straight to the front of the queue.

On one such occasion I was standing in line when exactly that happened - wearing my work overalls I'm certain the Thai guy in the suit simply saw a line of people who do not matter.

When I spoke to him and told him there's a place for him at the back of the queue, he came out with 'Sorry I didn't see you there' - Like 10 people, who did he not see? Someone who might not put up with his queue jumping.

So he returns to his car, waits for me to clear the queue and then steps right back at the front of the queue again.

Dismissing cultural norms that are recognized world-wide by all social anthropologists? Don't be so fast to discount it, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Asian perception of space is further complicated by the social-hierarchy scenario Guesthouse so eloquently (and bitterly) describes. That hi-so client is probably well-educated and very aware of western norms of politeness--hence his reaction to your confrontation.

Unique to Asia? Heck, that scenario applies in the west too. Years ago, I worked for a nation-wide bank and was trained to ALWAYS give preferential treatment to our more wealthy clients. The "normal" client had to stand in queue at the tellers' counters, while we were told to discretely direct our more "worthy" clients out of the line to a more private desk area to do their business with an officer at a desk. (Happens in Thai banks even more). Take note how airlines treat high-mileage customers...I've been one, and there is definitely a hierarchy in service!

The reason for "queue" problems here? It's not either-or. It's both-and.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Fookhaht

[GuestHouse]

Dismissing cultural norms that are recognized world-wide by all social anthropologists? Don't be so fast to discount it, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Asian perception of space is further complicated by the social-hierarchy scenario you describe. That hi-so client is probably well-educated and very aware of western norms of politeness--hence his reaction to your confrontation.

I prefer my observation that Thais understand queues but have a culturally ingrained attitude of Hierarchy - If you are further up the pecking order OR the situation you find yourself in can't come back on you - do as you please.

But if there is any uncertainty in the Hierarchy or the people around you have a direct impact on you then behave yourself.

So queuing in the office canteen is orderly, queues of factory workers from the same factory at the ATM are orderly - Queues at the middle class wedding party buffet are orderly.

Remove the social link between people or place someone who believes s/he is further up the pecking order and you get queue jumping.

The Hi-So client in the example I have given is far more likely to be adverse to conflict than he is likely to be aware of western manners.

He jumps the queue expecting nobody will challenge him - when he's challenged he backs down until the challenge has gone away and then jumps the queue again, assured that just as he can't cope with conflict, nor can any of the factory workers in the queue.

He's got a suit on, it is his right to do as he pleases.

[flying]

In my opinion it is all a matter of situational awareness which is a trait that Thais just don't seem to have

That is something I have noticed over the years too...Even with my wife.

While she is very polite & stands in line like everyone should...other times I try to explain situational awareness to her for safety reasons.

That aside on the subject of Que cutting...Just yesterday in Robinsons I was buying

my wife a birthday card. I am standing behind a young Thai man & we are waiting our turn.

A middle aged Thai lady with her two kids go right past us to the front & throws their baskets of things on the counter. I say Mai Dee Loy & the guy in front of me looks back & smiles nodding his head.

Ok no problem let it go....

Later that day we go to Swensons & as we are checking out...again in line behind a girl with an older Thai lady behind us a younger 20 something Thai lady comes along side like she thinks she is going to go in front of me.

This time I am having none of it & when the girl in front moves off I dive right in....

But I can see the que jumper has now slid in behind me between the older Thai lady & myself....The older Thai says nothing but looks unhappy....

When I am done paying I step straight back as if I dont know the younger lady is there forcing her back & wave the old lady thru....She smiles & nods at me a thanks..

Made my day & made the wife laugh.....The 20 something year old girl did not look so happy but TS

Edited December 13, 2011 by flying

[JurgenG]

I don't buy this apologist crap that Thais don't understand queues.

I'd advise people to take the time to watch Thais in queuing situations and pay particular attention when Thais further up the pecking order approach a queue - The queue at the local bank near our office is as good as an example as any.

Too many times I've seen a Thai wearing a suit approach and orderly queue of factory workers and walk straight to the front of the queue.

On one such occasion I was standing in line when exactly that happened - wearing my work overalls I'm certain the Thai guy in the suit simply saw a line of people who do not matter.

When I spoke to him and told him there's a place for him at the back of the queue, he came out with 'Sorry I didn't see you there' - Like 10 people, who did he not see? Someone who might not put up with his queue jumping.

So he returns to his car, waits for me to clear the queue and then steps right back at the front of the queue again.

There are people who are paid to solve non existing problem.

Give them a break, everybody needs to make a living.

[Fookhaht]

Dismissing cultural norms that are recognized world-wide by all social anthropologists? Don't be so fast to discount it, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Asian perception of space is further complicated by the social-hierarchy scenario you describe. That hi-so client is probably well-educated and very aware of western norms of politeness--hence his reaction to your confrontation.

I prefer my observation that Thais understand queues but have a culturally ingrained attitude of Hierarchy - If you are further up the pecking order OR the situation you find yourself in can't come back on you - do as you please.

But if there is any uncertainty in the Hierarchy or the people around you have a direct impact on you then behave yourself.

So queuing in the office canteen is orderly, queues of factory workers from the same factory at the ATM are orderly - Queues at the middle class wedding party buffet are orderly.

Remove the social link between people or place someone who believes s/he is further up the pecking order and you get queue jumping.

The Hi-So client in the example I have given is far more likely to be adverse to conflict than he is likely to be aware of western manners.

He jumps the queue expecting nobody will challenge him - when he's challenged he backs down until the challenge has gone away and then jumps the queue again, assured that just as he can't cope with conflict, nor can any of the factory workers in the queue.

He's got a suit on, it is his right to do as he pleases.

I don't discount your direct observations at all--I just think it has a bit more of a cynical slant. Your premise still doesn't explain why the younger man jumped the queue in the OP's post, and why students continually crowd in front of the "Ajarn" at the check-out counter. That turns the "hierarchy-explains-all" hypothesis on its head.

That open space is pretty irresistible to Asians. Witness the two meters of space in front that are claimed by nearly every driver entering busy traffic--right-of-way be damned! Yes, the big SUV's do it more aggressively, but the farmer mom with her two kids on the motorbike do it just as often!

Edited December 13, 2011 by Fookhaht

[geriatrickid]

It's not just the English that have an understanding of the concept, the Japanese, Canadians and most Scandanavians are just as good. Never had an Aussie shove his way past me except at the lav when he apologetically said, if he didn't he'd have "puddled the floor" and he apologized whilst he took his wizz. (The aussies have such quaint expressions.) Although the Thais can be jumpers, they tend to respect the line if the majority of people are doing so. Those that jump are often those we least expect will do so such as older women and pretty boys.. No scurvy looking thug ever tried to shove his way past me.

On the other hand, if you want worse case scenarios, come to Jungceylon in Phuket where the Russians and Middle easterners make the Thais look meek and mild. They do not respond to stares or comments. At least a Thai will smile and say sowwy sometimes. The oddballs are the Indians. Sometimes, they are just so very British, more British than John Bull and then there are the members of the legion of chaos. I call the Indians the wild cards.

[Fookhaht]

It's not just the English that have an understanding of the concept, the Japanese, Canadians and most Scandanavians are just as good. Never had an Aussie shove his way past me except at the lav when he apologetically said, if he didn't he'd have "puddled the floor" and he apologized whilst he took his wizz. (The aussies have such quaint expressions.) Although the Thais can be jumpers, they tend to respect the line if the majority of people are doing so. Those that jump are often those we least expect will do so such as older women and pretty boys.. No scurvy looking thug ever tried to shove his way past me.

On the other hand, if you want worse case scenarios, come to Jungceylon in Phuket where the Russians and Middle easterners make the Thais look meek and mild. They do not respond to stares or comments. At least a Thai will smile and say sowwy sometimes. The oddballs are the Indians. Sometimes, they are just so very British, more British than John Bull and then there are the members of the legion of chaos. I call the Indians the wild cards.

Great case study material. Yes, the Japanese are such anomalies when it comes to normal Asian "orderliness"--they are orderly to nearly the paranoid degree (by western observation).

I do take exception about the Russians not responding to stares or comments. I've seen them just as often see it as an invitation to a scuffle. They're a strange mix of East and West, as they've always been.

[Dave9000]

Apparently the Poms are good at queuing, but they are rank amateurs when compared to the Japlanders. Japanese people queue endlessly, without any anguish or impatience, and with a total absence of queue jumpers. Japanese queues are always straight, orderly and well mannered....I often think they are so well mannered that they would not rebuke a queue jumper; but their collective thoughts would give their target a guts ache.

Aussies will queue if they must but they will let people know that it gives them the sh-1-ts.

Thai queues are just bloody funny as long as you are a spectator and not a participant.

[Semper]

Too many times I've seen a Thai wearing a suit approach and orderly queue of factory workers and walk straight to the front of the queue.

There is normaly (never) no queue in a bank, you take your number and wait untill it's your turn. I could be wrong but I've never seen this kind of behavior in a bank in Thailand.

[GuestHouse]

I don't discount your direct observations at all--I just think it has a bit more of a cynical slant. Your premise still doesn't explain why the younger man jumped the queue in the OP's post, and why students continually crowd in front of the "Ajarn" at the check-out counter. That turns the "hierarchy-explains-all" hypothesis on its head.

This presumes that "Ajarn' is further up the pecking order than the students - I've seen little evidence to confirm this.

I can see nothing it the Thai guy per the OP's example that confirms or denies either your Thais don't see space view or my Thais don't see people they don't think matter to them view.

Edited December 13, 2011 by GuestHouse

[StreetCowboy]

Too many times I've seen a Thai wearing a suit approach and orderly queue of factory workers and walk straight to the front of the queue.

There is normaly (never) no queue in a bank, you take your number and wait untill it's your turn. I could be wrong but I've never seen this kind of behavior in a bank in Thailand.

SCB, Rama IV

Queue for the tellers, wander over and seek attention at the desks for other matters, generally people are served in the order that they arrive, though its hard to tell as there is always lots of milling around from one desk to another.

SC

[hehehoho]

Picked up two small items in a service station this morning and the lovely Thai woman in front of me who had a basketful saw me and smiled and insisted I go first.

Good and bad in every country.

Thailand's certainly no different to the West in this regard.

[GuestHouse]

What I do see on a daily basis is Thais behaving very differently when confronted with people up/down the pecking order from themselves or when dealing with people who do / do not have an impact on them personally.

Not just in queues, but in every aspect of their dealing with each other - Thais are hyper sensitive to hierarchy and 'social utility'.

I find it difficult to believe that this clear trait of Thai society is switched on and off in queues

Rather queues are an environment were Thais are forced to do something they don't like doing - deal with people they have not been introduced to.

There response far too often is to ignore or be dismissive of the other people around them.

Edited December 13, 2011 by GuestHouse

[Fookhaht]

I don't discount your direct observations at all--I just think it has a bit more of a cynical slant. Your premise still doesn't explain why the younger man jumped the queue in the OP's post, and why students continually crowd in front of the "Ajarn" at the check-out counter. That turns the "hierarchy-explains-all" hypothesis on its head.

This presumes that "Ajarn' is further up the pecking order than the students - I've seen little evidence to confirm this.

Your presumption is exactly correct.

I see it every week, sometimes multiple times. I am an "Ajarn" on a campus of 45,000 students. Plenty of instances, to verify they'll even defy social hierarchy to fill that irresistible space.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Fookhaht

[nocturn]

i am amused by the number of brits on here who seem to believe that queuing is a uniquely british trait.

I am not even going to touch the term "British reserve" nor the homophobia expressed in the OP.

[xandreu]

i am amused by the number of brits on here who seem to believe that queuing is a uniquely british trait.

I am not even going to touch the term "British reserve" nor the homophobia expressed in the OP.

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, queuing is not a uniquely British thing. In fact, what's become clear in this thread is that you can learn a lot from a society by watching how they deal with such basic social behaviors, and every society has it's own rules and ways of going about it. I'm sure Fruedians would (and probably do) have a field day over such a simple observation.

As for homophobia, I don't know where you got that from? Not wanting someone who appeared homosexual to misunderstand why you're staring at them doesn't make you homophobic, it simply means you don't want them to misunderstand why you're staring at them. I'm homosexual myself. And I didn't want him to misunderstand why I was staring at him.

Edited December 13, 2011 by xandreu

[Travel2003]

In my opinion it is all a matter of situational awareness which is a trait that Thais just don't seem to have

They are not aware of other vehicles when they drive, they are not aware of others when they walk on a sidewalk, not aware of pedestrians when they turn into or out of a street and certainly not aware of other people in a line

It's funny that they are so polite when on a one-on-one situation but when they are in a mass, all that goes out the window

And still they seem to avoid too many accidents, so they obviously have some sort of awarness we do not know of.

This is actually something I have seen all over this continent.

The absolutely worst are the Indians and Chinese. Probably not all 2-3 Billion of them, but too many.

We all have probably been in a line, with someone infront of us, and suddenly 10 other pushes infront of you, as it turned out this person infront of you was traveling together with this other group. Thus they think they have right to just jump infront of anyone else.

I recently stayed a few days at Embassador hotel in BKK.

When checking out there is an Indian national about to check out, first in line.

Behind him is a tall and very stylish elderly English gentleman.

Suddenly 3 other pops up, and pass the gentleman.

Turned out their were the travel companions to the first guy.

The English gentleman explodes, and tell them off, with a very loud voice, but still in a polite way, basically verbally force them to line up behind the rest of us.

Wonderful display from the gentleman.

Big smile from me.

:-)

PS. I think most countries in at least Northern Europe (and North America?) have developed very disciplined culture regarding this.

[tropo]

That open space is pretty irresistible to Asians. Witness the two meters of space in front that are claimed by nearly every driver entering busy traffic--right-of-way be damned! Yes, the big SUV's do it more aggressively, but the farmer mom with her two kids on the motorbike do it just as often!

Riding this way in Pattaya has probably saved me a month or more of waiting time over the past 6 years.

[tropo]

On the other hand, if you want worse case scenarios, come to Jungceylon in Phuket where the Russians and Middle easterners make the Thais look meek and mild. They do not respond to stares or comments.

The Russians only respond to a well timed shove. You need to prevent them from pushing in front of you. Once they have claimed the space in front there's no going back.

The 7Elevens where I live in Pattaya are always crowded with Russians. If they are blocking my way I just push through. I've given up trying to be polite.