My Daughter Has Been Kidnapped

[Childkidnapping]

Hello I am a UK citizen,

And married with a girl from a bar in Bangkok a few years ago,in Bangkok, we went to Bristol and she get pregnant:: A beatifull daughter.

I am 55 and my wife 24 and that wasn`t always easy, she took my daughter begining this year to Thailand and did not come back, My daughter Gabrielle does not own the Thai Nationality only the UK and has only UK passport, The court in the UK ordered her to bring the child back, no reply.

I went to Thailand with this order, and I even can not take my daughter out from her home, and I am the father.

My daughter is now in Thailand almost one year and I did find a lawyer, but I realy don`t know what my chances are.

Can my wife obtain for Thai nationality without me ( she does not have the birth cert) and we never applied for Thai Nat for our daughter.

What is my right in Thailand ?

Can someone with similar experiance help me.

Dennis from Bristol

[venturalaw]

Where in Thailand are you? What does your lawyer tell you? Curious as to why it has taken a year for you to seek the return of your daughter.

[metisdead]

Posts not contributing to the topic have been removed.

[madjbs]

I believe Thai law does not recognize this as "kidnapping". Find yourself a proper lawyer, who knows about this subject.

[snowgard]

If the mother is Thai, the daughter is automatic Thai too. I think your chance is like zero. Maybe a very good lawyer for the family court can do something if the mother is a bargirl and take drugs. Otherwise .........

[Childkidnapping]

Where in Thailand are you? What does your lawyer tell you? Curious as to why it has taken a year for you to seek the return of your daughter.

Bangkok I stay, she would come back she said, and then it took me a half year in the court in the UK.

[Childkidnapping]

She

If the mother is Thai, the daughter is automatic Thai too. I think your chance is like zero. Maybe a very good lawyer for the family court can do something if the mother is a bargirl and take drugs. Otherwise .........

She does or did work in a bar, mother thai and then what about that my child is born in the UK and me is the father ??

[Childkidnapping]

Is there any chance I get my child to the UK

[Boo]

Your child will automatically be a thai citizen due to her mother being thai.

Were you married when your child was born?

Where did you register the marriage, in UK or Thailand?

These are important questions that we need the answers to before proper advice can be given.

Ignore anyone who claims you have no chance of getting proper access to your child via the thai court system. These claims are usually made by people with zero knowledge or experience of the system.

Look up mikeyidea posts on this subject using the search function, he is a wealth of knowledge & will probably come online at some point to comment on this thread too. Listen to his words & take whatever advice he offers you.

[Maestro]

...Can my wife obtain for Thai nationality without me ( she does not have the birth cert) and we never applied for Thai Nat for our daughter...

Your daughter acquired Thai nationality at birth. I believe the Thai passport office requires the consent of both parents for the issuance of a passport to a child.

I don't know how the procedure for getting the UK court order regarding the return of the child into your custody can be enforced in Thailand. Perhaps another member knows the answer to this one. Filing a complaint with the police at the place of your wife's residence may have to be the first step.

[Childkidnapping]

Your child will automatically be a thai citizen due to her mother being thai.

Were you married when your child was born?

Where did you register the marriage, in UK or Thailand?

These are important questions that we need the answers to before proper advice can be given.

Ignore anyone who claims you have no chance of getting proper access to your child via the thai court system. These claims are usually made by people with zero knowledge or experience of the system.

Look up mikeyidea posts on this subject using the search function, he is a wealth of knowledge & will probably come online at some point to comment on this thread too. Listen to his words & take whatever advice he offers you.

Marriage registration in Bangkok, and yes we were married when the child was born....

I also understand that she is the mother, but then again also a uk citizen ?!

[Mario2008]

Your child has two nationalities, Thai and UK because of the parents. She has that be virtue of being born to a Thai mother and a British father. The only thing that needs to be done is to get a Thai brth certificate from the Thai embassy on London, which can be applied for by mail or through the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs, consular section. Getting a Thai passport will not be possible, as both parents must give consent. But not very important at this moment.

If you want the UK court order effected, in case of parental abduction the contacts regarding international cases is through the governments of both countries. The UK government should contact the appropriate Thai government to see the court order effected. It seems Thailand is now party to the treaty on international parental kidnapping.

Normally a Thai judge will not execute a foreign court order, but will look at it. A Thai judge will make a decision based on what is in the best interset of the child and will not be biased agianst foreigners. The norm in Thailand is that parents get shared custody. Sole custody is only awarded in cases where the other parent is percieved to be incapable of taking care of the child or even a danger to the child. On request of one of the parents the court can order that a child cannot be taken out of the country, meaning you will get shared custody in Thailand. (Unless you will be awarded sole custody).

The norm is always that a child is being taken care of by the parents, if the mother can't take care of the child th fhather will take care of the child. Meaning that if the mother can't take care of the child becaue of work in Bangkok, she cannot let the child stay with for example the grandmother in another place. Than you as the fahter would have the right to take care of the child.

Currently you have shared custody with the mother by way of default as you are maried to the mother. It means that you have equal rights to the child as the mother. You can't get the mother to hand over the child to you, but you can demand the child from anybody else. If you see for example your daughter with just the grandmother walking on the street you can just simply take your daughter. How wise/safe that is, is another matter but it would be legal.

Do realize that if you didn't see your daughter for some time children under the age of about 4 years old have poor memory. After a while you become a stranger to them.

A good lawyer regarding Thai family law would be isaanlawyers.

[Maestro]

I have deleted a nonsensical off-topic post.

[harrry]

Your child has two nationalities, Thai and UK because of the parents. She has that be virtue of being born to a Thai mother and a British father. The only thing that needs to be done is to get a Thai brth certificate from the Thai embassy on London, which can be applied for by mail or through the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs, consular section. Getting a Thai passport will not be possible, as both parents must give consent. But not very important at this moment.

If you want the UK court order effected, in case of parental abduction the contacts regarding international cases is through the governments of both countries. The UK government should contact the appropriate Thai government to see the court order effected. It seems Thailand is now party to the treaty on international parental kidnapping.

Normally a Thai judge will not execute a foreign court order, but will look at it. A Thai judge will make a decision based on what is in the best interset of the child and will not be biased agianst foreigners. The norm in Thailand is that parents get shared custody. Sole custody is only awarded in cases where the other parent is percieved to be incapable of taking care of the child or even a danger to the child. On request of one of the parents the court can order that a child cannot be taken out of the country, meaning you will get shared custody in Thailand. (Unless you will be awarded sole custody).

The norm is always that a child is being taken care of by the parents, if the mother can't take care of the child th fhather will take care of the child. Meaning that if the mother can't take care of the child becaue of work in Bangkok, she cannot let the child stay with for example the grandmother in another place. Than you as the fahter would have the right to take care of the child.

Currently you have shared custody with the mother by way of default as you are maried to the mother. It means that you have equal rights to the child as the mother. You can't get the mother to hand over the child to you, but you can demand the child from anybody else. If you see for example your daughter with just the grandmother walking on the street you can just simply take your daughter. How wise/safe that is, is another matter but it would be legal.

Do realize that if you didn't see your daughter for some time children under the age of about 4 years old have poor memory. After a while you become a stranger to them.

A good lawyer regarding Thai family law would be isaanlawyers.

Has that treaty been ratified yet. I understood it has been agreed to but not ratified by the government and was not in force till it has been.

[Mario2008]

Your child has two nationalities, Thai and UK because of the parents. She has that be virtue of being born to a Thai mother and a British father. The only thing that needs to be done is to get a Thai brth certificate from the Thai embassy on London, which can be applied for by mail or through the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs, consular section. Getting a Thai passport will not be possible, as both parents must give consent. But not very important at this moment.

If you want the UK court order effected, in case of parental abduction the contacts regarding international cases is through the governments of both countries. The UK government should contact the appropriate Thai government to see the court order effected. It seems Thailand is now party to the treaty on international parental kidnapping.

Normally a Thai judge will not execute a foreign court order, but will look at it. A Thai judge will make a decision based on what is in the best interset of the child and will not be biased agianst foreigners. The norm in Thailand is that parents get shared custody. Sole custody is only awarded in cases where the other parent is percieved to be incapable of taking care of the child or even a danger to the child. On request of one of the parents the court can order that a child cannot be taken out of the country, meaning you will get shared custody in Thailand. (Unless you will be awarded sole custody).

The norm is always that a child is being taken care of by the parents, if the mother can't take care of the child th fhather will take care of the child. Meaning that if the mother can't take care of the child becaue of work in Bangkok, she cannot let the child stay with for example the grandmother in another place. Than you as the fahter would have the right to take care of the child.

Currently you have shared custody with the mother by way of default as you are maried to the mother. It means that you have equal rights to the child as the mother. You can't get the mother to hand over the child to you, but you can demand the child from anybody else. If you see for example your daughter with just the grandmother walking on the street you can just simply take your daughter. How wise/safe that is, is another matter but it would be legal.

Do realize that if you didn't see your daughter for some time children under the age of about 4 years old have poor memory. After a while you become a stranger to them.

A good lawyer regarding Thai family law would be isaanlawyers.

Has that treaty been ratified yet. I understood it has been agreed to but not ratified by the government and was not in force till it has been.

I recently checked and believe it is indeed rattified, but not 100% sure.

Thai immigration now officially requires consent from both parents to take a child in or out of the country, but I don't believe that is actually enforced. The IATA database gives this warning, but not for all nationalities. So it is a bit confusing.

[cardholder]

If the mother is Thai, the daughter is automatic Thai too. I think your chance is like zero. Maybe a very good lawyer for the family court can do something if the mother is a bargirl and take drugs. Otherwise .........

This is also my view. My perception is that a mother is pretty much free to take her daughter wherever she wishes and the courts generally lean towards the mother.

On what basis did a UK court order that the child should return to the UK ?

[IMA_FARANG]

Denis:

Sorry to give you the bad news but under Thai law your daughter IS Thai.

That is because her mother is Thai...and therefore your daughter has a right to Thai nationality for that reason.

Any court in Thailand that you bring the case to, UNLESS you can prove the THAI mother to be an unfit mother, will almost always determine the best interests of the child will lie with the child's MOTHER rather than the child's father...simply because, if for no other reason than that the mother carried the unborn child in her womb for 9 months...which the father didn't.

Sorry to have to tell you that, but that is the reality of the situation.

It may be possible to get a Thai court to recognise your U.K. court order as contributary evidence to your request for custody of the child...but without some evidence that her mother is unfit to be a mother the Thai court is extremely unlikely to side with you.

And if the child is old enough to understand and expresses a desire to live with her mother...you're chances of getting custody of the child is practically nil.

About the best you can hope for is to be allowed visitation rights to see your daughter ocassionally...and that is very hard to enforce if the mother does not agree.

And, just so you understand, whether the mother has another "boyfriend" or not is NOT considered evidence of being an unfit mother...because the mother is of the age of consent and therefore can legally pick her own partners.

Sorry to have to tell you this...but it's the reality you will have to deal with.

Based on that reality...you will have to decide what to do for yourself.

[Mario2008]

Denis:

Sorry to give you the bad news but under Thai law your daughter IS Thai.

That is because her mother is Thai...and therefore your daughter has a right to Thai nationality for that reason.

Any court in Thailand that you bring the case to, UNLESS you can prove the THAI mother to be an unfit mother, will almost always determine the best interests of the child will lie with the child's MOTHER rather than the child's father...simply because, if for no other reason than that the mother carried the unborn child in her womb for 9 months...which the father didn't.

Sorry to have to tell you that, but that is the reality of the situation.

It may be possible to get a Thai court to recognise your U.K. court order as contributary evidence to your request for custody of the child...but without some evidence that her mother is unfit to be a mother the Thai court is extremely unlikely to side with you.

And if the child is old enough to understand and expresses a desire to live with her mother...you're chances of getting custody of the child is practically nil.

About the best you can hope for is to be allowed visitation rights to see your daughter ocassionally...and that is very hard to enforce if the mother does not agree.

And, just so you understand, whether the mother has another "boyfriend" or not is NOT considered evidence of being an unfit mother...because the mother is of the age of consent and therefore can legally pick her own partners.

Sorry to have to tell you this...but it's the reality you will have to deal with.

Based on that reality...you will have to decide what to do for yourself.

The statement that he has almost zero chance on custody is nonsense. He has a fair chance in a Thai court, that he is a foreigner doesn't matter nor that he is male. Several memebrs have gained sole custody over their child in a Thai court, others have shared custody with the children either having their main stay with the mother or the fahter. By default he will have shared custody, the only question will be how many days a week the child can stay with him and who will be the prime care taker.

regarding legally picking your own partners, that is not the case when you are married. Then it is called adultry and reason for divorce and reason to sue for damages from the new lover (if he knew of the marriage).

[MikeyIdea]

Read what Mario2008 writes twice, always good information

"I went to Thailand with this order, and I even can not take my daughter out from her home, and I am the father."

Well, that's because a British court order is not valid in Thailand, it has to be a Thai court order. The police here have no authority to act because of the British court order you showed them.

Thai police will not act against the mother for sure but IF the child is with e.g. the grand mother and the mother is not around, then try this;

Take the British court order to the consular section of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs (on Cheang Wattana Rd) and get a certified true translation in Thai of it. It makes it look more official with Thai stamps and all (and the police can read what it says too), then go with your layer to the local police station where your daughter lives and talk to "roi wien" (that's the policeman in charge) and ask him to help you to fetch the child. Maybe he will help, maybe not. He will NOT take the child from the mother so no use even trying if she's around but if granny or someone else takes care of the child, then give it a go. You need a British passport for the child before you try this by the way

If that doesn't work, then only way is through the Thai Juvenile court system and I would strongly recommend you to do it the official way that Mario also writes = make the British court order matter the most => The UK government should contact the appropriate Thai government to see the court order effected. It seems Thailand is now party to the treaty on international parental kidnapping.

A Thai juvenile court will not simply enforce the British court order but they will consider it. I don't know if they would accept to send the child back to England in this case but I highly doubt it, the basis for all decisions in Thai Juvenile courts is - in the best interest of the child - sending the child back to England would go against that as the child then in effect could/would lose her mother

If you can't live in Thailand, then this probably doesn't look good for you - the same problem when parents living far away from each other break up everywhere in the world - You will have no problems at all getting your shared custody and shared possession of the child upheld in a Thai Juvenile court but the question is; Will you be able to use it?

Were you awarded sole custody in the British court order or was the child only ordered back again?

Good Luck

MikeyIdea

[harrry]

I may be wrong but I understand the court orders the child to be returned to the country in which it has been living at the time of the abduction. It does not give custody but enables the case to be heard. It is my understanding that the costs of returning are to be paid by the person taking the child from the country. Member countries are obliged to act on that order.

[beano2274]

Do you know where they are? This is one of the most important things to help you.

[beano2274]

I may be wrong but I understand the court orders the child to be returned to the country in which it has been living at the time of the abduction. It does not give custody but enables the case to be heard. It is my understanding that the costs of returning are to be paid by the person taking the child from the country. Member countries are obliged to act on that order.

As someone has already stated Thailand does not have to recognise other countries court orders, it looks after it's own.

Edited December 20, 2011 by beano2274

[WebBangkok]

wow, I had almost the exact same thing happen to one of my friends. Almost identical a few years ago where he had a court order from Australia after the mother took the child to Thailand and never came back.

He took the court order to the Australian Embassy and they helped him sort it out and organised and told him where to go etc.

The Thai courts did side with him and the court order was what he believes helped him get his son back so I think you have a great chance. So I think you should go to the Embassy first and seek advise from there as they should be able to tell you what steps to take, it wont be fast but it should give you the best chance possible.

[WebBangkok]

I am not sure what the UK justice courts are like, but you probably have more chance the judge siding with the father than what you would have in Australia where the overwhelming majority of the custody cases ends up with the female winning.

[harrry]

I may be wrong but I understand the court orders the child to be returned to the country in which it has been living at the time of the abduction. It does not give custody but enables the case to be heard. It is my understanding that the costs of returning are to be paid by the person taking the child from the country. Member countries are obliged to act on that order.

As someone has already stated Thailand does not have to recognise other countries court orders, it looks after it's own.

Not completely true if the treaty has been ratified. In general the courts apply the law here well,,,except in a few high profile cases.

[beano2274]

I may be wrong but I understand the court orders the child to be returned to the country in which it has been living at the time of the abduction. It does not give custody but enables the case to be heard. It is my understanding that the costs of returning are to be paid by the person taking the child from the country. Member countries are obliged to act on that order.

As someone has already stated Thailand does not have to recognise other countries court orders, it looks after it's own.

Not completely true if the treaty has been ratified. In general the courts apply the law here well,,,except in a few high profile cases.

The big word being "if". This needs to be clarified.

[farang000999]

Forget all the legal stuff. Call the mother and tell her you won the lottery. They will be back and smiling in an hour.

[samsiam]

A good lawyer regarding Thai family law would be isaanlawyers.

That is quite funny..

[bow]

How is the mother's financial situation ?

I know this sounds terrible, but financial support to the mother might persuade her to help you to get the child back to England.