The Undocumented Dangers Of Thailand's Roads

[Tanaka]

in the channel for documentary they showed people building " hand built buses "

without diagrams or plans...... and they talked about " pirate buses "

why don't the police check these things when they pass through the numerous police

checkpoints?

there is only one way to travel by bus safely in Thailand and that is this way:-

http://www.nca.co.th/firstclass.php

And what makes you think their drivers have more knowledge and actual road safety education?

I wonder how many of those deaths are motor cycle related, it’s unfair to compare UK and Thailand for many reasons. Yes the numbers are shocking but I am not surprised the standard of driving in Thailand is shocking treat everybody as an idiot on the road as most of them are!

I am also quite shocked at the number of busses coaches and lorries I see almost every day with completely bald tyres! Doesn’t anyone check them?

No. And bus tyres are expensive.

[johnsuma]

I just did my Thai driving licence. Seeing how easy it is to get one without any proper training or theoretical drill makes me understand the traffic situation in Thailand.

And how many of Thais not even bother to obtain that at all....

Me myself got my drive licence in 20 minutes from the moment I stepped into the Roads Dept (or how you call that). NO ANY SINGLE QUESTION was sounded (about theory), NO ANY SINGLE MINUTE was spent on test driving....Nothing at all.

I step into the department, provide them photo/fee/passport, they gave me the questionnaire in Thai where correct answers were ALREADY PRE-CHECKED, I passed it to the clerk, waiting for 20min and received my licence. Bingo, I became a driver!

Lucky me, I have background of traffic rules/signs/driving since I was in my homecountry. At least I know DOs and DONT's... Many, MANY, MOST Thais do not.

But they are driving, too.....And sometimes they driving big tourist buses, lorries, passing in front of trains etc.....

Sorry man you are exagerating, yes most of are stupid, and all officials are heavily corrupted and yea the license for driving is easy to pass but you have to make a basic check of the eyes, a very basic!! test driving, (forward NO Backward!!) where there are 3 or 4 traffic panel that they are supposed to respect (on the road 50% of these mads burn the red light it allow them to go sleep faster..., you have also automatic computer test (put a nominative card into a reader and answer 30 or 40 question, (some are "sometime" unclear), then you get the license (you need all the day for the processing of all that.

Now if you have already license from your country or international license, there is no checking at all execept for the eye which is a mistake, the think that they must check here is the brain... Have a nice stay in the land of the smile.

Note that it is always very funny to go that place, better than in the circus.

[Moruya]

Until the licenses, cars and drivers are properly monitored, Thailand's roads will be continue to be among the most dangerous in the world.

Sometimes I leave the smog of Bangkok on a bit of a tour north/north east. When I do so I try to enjoy the bus. You get drivers that are OK and you get the bloody idiots. If it's the latter I get off and get another.

[Tanaka]

What ever happened to that underage unlicensed girl who killed 8-9 people by forcing a van over the toll way bridge. Her wealthy parent paid everyone off and that is the last we heard of it.

The witnesses hearings are set for April. But dont hold your breath that any punishment will be sentenced for this murder.

[remobb]

I have a lot of personal experience with this topic being a regular driver, I am British (no bearing on the matter really) Whist travelling on a bus from Udon Thani to Bangkok the bus takes a normal stop in Khon Khean. This driver decided to take a side street instead of following the normal route for the bus station. The electrical cables for this street where lower than the bus so the conductor stood on the roof of the bus to lift them over the bus (no joke, 100% true) he continued half way down the street lifting cables, banging shop signs and all. Finally he decided it was not possible because of parked cars so he wanted tp back up. Same thing but in reverse, lifting cables etc. At the junction the cables caught the rear of the bus but the driver kept going. He pulled all the cables out of their boxes, blew all the power in the nearby streets and buildings. We are lucky we where not electrocuted. He finally got out of the street and just continued as though nothing happened.

I have not and will not travell by bus again.

Further more, drivers are constantly racing down the side or emergency lane overtaking like crazy, at the same time cars and motorbikes constantly drive the wrong way on these lanes. Many times the police are directing traffic to do just this. How many times I have seen cars and trucks driving the wrong way cutting accross oncoming traffic to get through a gap in the barrier instead of driving a little further to the U turn.

It goes on and on, I can almost write a book about it. In short to stay alive on the roads in Thailand drive yourself if possible and consider every other driver including the police are idiots and have no idea of rules of the road. I am not taking about European rules, I am talking about common sense rules.

Drive expecting an accident and if you are lucky like myself so far you may stay safe.

[blackthorn2005]

I recently retuned form a Patong-Ranong visa run. Added to the usual dangers of speeding, driving too close to the vehicle in front, driving on the wrong side of the road and racing other mini-buses, this one had no seat belts fitted. ALL public transport should be fitted with seat belts.

[SunsetT]

Over 6 years, I have sometimes travelled by minibus between Bangkok and Ban Phe or Hua Hin. Some drivers, usually the older ones, drive relatively reasonably (for Thailand), but others, despite having a full load of passengers, drive like Boy Racers, i.e., maniacs, dodging from lane to lane, with no concept of a safe stopping distance. What gets me is that the other passengers, including my wife with her 5yr old son, dont seem to worry at all, or support me if I complain to the driver to slow down using my wife to reluctantly translate!

Also, I just cannot understand why the fitting and use of seatbelts is not enforced on buses and minibuses. What is unbelievable is that they are often fitted but most times rendered unusable! I have been on one newish minibus where the seatbelts hidden under the seat had never even been taken out of their plastic packaging, rubber band removed and unravelled -puzzled looks from Thai passengers when I unravelled and used mine. Other times the belts are seemingly deliberately twisted around and around the metal bars under the seat to prevent their use! Seatbelts on coaches or buses are not so common, or have been hidden so well that you just cant see them. But again, absurdly, when fitted they are rendered unusable! See attached photo taken on a nice comfortable and apparently well maintained public bus operating between Udon Thani and Nakhon Phanom.

Why not let those who wish to use them use them?

If after a bus or minibus crash with fatalities, seatbelts were found not to be fitted, maintained and usable, the owning operator, and the driver were charged and convicted with murder, then I think this would soon serve as an effective motivation to ensure seatbelts are fitted, maintained and usable.

But ultimately this seems to be pure unadulterated, uncaring ignorance and negligence on the part of, not the drivers, or bus companies, but those in authority in government for failing to enforce such simple measures. They should know better.

[ingvar]

I cant recall reading in the news about this particular accident in June? Usually when there are buses and foreigners involved there are news in all newspapers?

Although this kind of accidents are high profile (similar to air crashes - worlds safest mode of transportation) the majority of accidents in Thailand; more than 90% I think, are caused by and involves motorcycles.

[Kered]

Better take a train, if you are short on budget, or fly, what is rather cheap as well! Busses and mini busses is kind of a Russian Roulette...

Rail travel seems to be as dangerous as the roads, yesterday's accident at Pranburi is one of many in the past year.

[Card]

^{I regularly travel by bus between BKK and CM and Pattaya because I hate flying and have never been involved in an accident. I started to travel by minibus but gave that up due to the increased dangers. However, I guess I'm lucky as I can see full well the dangers.}

^{But I am also aware that it is true that part of the fascination of travel to Thailand are the potential dangers and many farangs take unnecessary risks when they are here because it gives them a kind of bravado and a feeling of freedom that they are unable to achieve in their own countries. For example, many buses in Thailand have perfectly comfortable seat belts, but I am the only person who seems to use them. Also many farangs ride motorbikes without crash helmets or use flimsy ones or are unbuckled. When they go on treks into the jungle, how many think of taking first aid kits? I've been on one and had many other farangs needing the first aid kit I carried and yet still blamed the trek organisers for not bringing one. When accidents happen, they are the first to blame Thais, when they would never do what they do in their home countries. The bus accident in question was not the fault of the boys, but many accidents involving farangs would be less severe if they simply used the common sense and education they have but they claim are lacking in Thais.}

Edited December 29, 2011 by Card

[xthAi76s]

This will take a generation to change; there are so many interlocking problems, starting with accountability, all the way to the top. Perhaps if the mothers' campaign could make this a big enough issue, worldwide to really make a dent in tourist dollars, it might get the attention of the government. I suspect that's the only thing that will get anyone's attention. Even then, there is so much money at stake for the vested interests, it would take a really, really big dent. And I agree with a previous poster, that road safety is just one of MANY issues for tourists and locals alike. This is a country in transition and it will be a bumpy ride for a long time.

You'll have someone come out here and proclaim that tourism is actually not that important to Thailand because it's only about 6% of Thailand's GDP You'll also have people proclaim that Thailand's tourism future is with non-Western countries like China ...

But, I do agree that they are pretty naive to think they can change Thailand from within. Actually, that's true for any country. Hit them in the pocket; that's what matters.

[SunsetT]

"Miracle Thailand", (though, as is the norm here, bad English) seems a very appropriate Tourism slogan for Thailand, i.e.,

" It's a <deleted> miracle if you survive your stay here!

[xthAi76s]

Someone mentioned that the problems here in Thailand are many and all interlocking. That is very true.

Perhaps what it all boils down to as well is that life is cheap here. People know that, and they act accordingly. That's not easy to change and it doesn't change simply with better road rules.

[katabeachbum]

The dated busses used here, new paint and upholstery in old crap, would not be allowed on European roads.

The bus drivers here would not pass an European drivers license test

They keep 120kmh, while they in Europe are speed limited at 80kmh.

It is dangerous. I am glad someone focusing on it.

Go by plane, International safety standards apply

[kjhbigv]

I feel desperately sorry for the parents BUT trying to change driving attitudes here is an uphill, if not impossible battle.

This is not the UK with its many rules and regulations. In the big scheme of things, I would say the average Thai is more concerned about the things that matter to them eg. sorting out the floods, having a stable government etc etc.

It is all very well saying how bad the roads are here while sitting in London, but this is not London....priorities are different here.

The best they can hope for (as someone else said) is to encourage the UK government to put warnings on Foreign Office website and for travellers to be educated about the dangers.

Travellers should be made aware that safety standards are not as high as the UK and won't be for a long time.

[hellodolly]

I'd suggest to these ladies that putting pressure on the Thai government to improve road safety is like pushing a rope.

They'd be better off working the other end of the equation and pressure their own governments to post warnings about how dangerous it really is. Then they could work on every travel guide that lures kids to spend their shoestring budget vacation in dangerous areas. If those warnings were available, perhaps these mothers would have (as one mentioned) given their kids some money to travel safer by air, and tragedy would have been averted.

That's not specific to Thailand, as my previous decade (plus) in China makes Bangkok drivers seem like a breath of fresh air. Yes, it's that bad up there.

Most of the posters here have no idea of conditions out side their range of vision. China is just one of many that makes Thailand look good My wife is Thai and will not drive in Cambodia.

She understands the Thai driving and has as little understanding of the Cambodian driving as most of the posters here have of understanding the Thai driving.

Both just stand around and point fingers and say it is wrong.

And they are correct it is wrong for wherever they come from but they are not there now.

A more constructive effort would be to try to bring public transport vehicles up to safe levels of operation. As has been pointed out here bald tires are common. And perhaps a separate driving school for the drivers of big buses and trucks.

Telling them they are wrong is just a way of further alienating yourself from them.

[sysardman]

To start with - my sympathies to the families who have lost loved ones.

The reason many come to Thailand is the freedom from the nanny state, it's danger, excitement and cheap prices. If Thailand was to adopt everything that was suggested like checks on vehicles etc then I think every tuk-tuk would have to be scrapped and fares on public transport would soar. Thailand would soon lose it's appeal and the tourists would move to Laos or Vietnam. Same goes for every kind of safety check, all costs would be passed on to the consumer. Let's face it, nobody really comes here to study things like architecture unless your into prefab or poured concrete buildings

The poster Card gave some examples like the youngsters who go to Pattaya and Phuket who get drunk and then hire big 1000cc motorbikes and ride them in just shorts and (tshirt optional) with no helmet. I myself have used many of the bus services here and am amazed at the prices, I can travel 1000km here for the same price as travelling 20 miles back home.

The accident that started this topic was down to bad driving yes, but the lads who died were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Statements like 'they should have gone by air' are all well and good until you remember the Phuket air crash - again people in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can do all the safety checks you want but when it come down to human error, how can you guard against that. The bus crash seems to have been a driver trying to save a few minutes and the air crash was a pilot trying to land in atrocious weather conditions, correct me if I am wrong but I don't think any blame was ever put on bad maintenance.

[Lifer]

In general, from my experience driving in Chiang Mai, most drivers have absolutely no road sense, no common sense and an attitude of "its not my fault" when they drive. To call them brainless idiots would be an insult to brainless idiots.

About Chiang Mai, your absolutely right! And don't even think about obeying the law when you stop to let a pedestrian cross. Brainless drivers will swerve around you and hit the person trying to legally cross the road. It all comes out when they drive. Death is a non issue here with rebirth.

[SantiSuk]

I don't know how the ladies came to the conclusion that statistics are hard to come by:

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

Many countries look dangerous compared with the UK, which is close to the best in the world at 4 deaths per 100,000 (America is three times worse). Thailand is in line with the global average at around 20 deaths per 100,000 of population.

Those that think Thailand is dangerous need to visit the truly bonkers countries. Having driven through it both ways on the hippy trail to India in the 70s, I was unsurprised to see that Iran's rate is nearly twice that of Thailand. Their macho culture causes them to drive at each other on mountain passes in an oft fatal game of chicken.

Nonetheless, although there are no stats about public transport deaths, I would expect that Thailand's long distance buses are many times more dangerous than their western equivalents (but probably no different from similar developing countries like the Philipines, India, Brazil etc). Also deaths per 100,000 population is a very imperfect measure - what is needed for a reliable measure of how unsafe travel is, would be a death per 100,000 kilos travelled statistic (which would be almost impossible to construct).

Maybe a worldwide study of public transport deaths and/or tourist transport deaths would be a good subject for someone's undergrad project.

I would like to see NCA make some advertising mileage of their apparently better standard of driving. I observe on my drives from Isaan to Bangkok that they are rarely in the 'violently swaying dangerously overtaking' mode, so often favoured by those over-painted VIP wallahs. Perhaps if Thais could be encouraged by the private sector operators to value safety there would be more focus on it. Pigs might fly; when I observed to my wife that I would probably only travel in NCA if I could, she dismissed it with a predictable 'paeng mahk'.

[FriedMyLittleBrain]

It all comes back to education and changing the way people think.

First, would be to get parents stop buying bikes for their school children (some very young)... They learn bad road habits from the start.

Second.. Pay Police wages that they can survive on and would be less inclined to accept a few measly baht to let people get away with things such as roadworthy vehicles, drunk drivers, people not obeying road rules, etc.

This all takes a lot of money to run through the economy, so the Third would be to put in place "checks and balances" so money invested in economy is just that .... and not filtered through officials/companies so the end result is just a small portion to fix a road or install a set of lights or to monitor roadworthy buses/vehicles.

in some part i agree but maybe it is more deep & complicate ..Main.roads here is not so bad . And it seems that if government here really want to change smth.they just do it & for example most people here buy car or motorbike with credit -just not easy to count but easy to imagine how much they get from it,then every month or maybe twice a month road police get their piece & on on on -bit scare to go deeper & to look like paranoiac

[Soboringtochooseaname]

A life being so cheap here, why caring about other people using the road ? Just try to avoid breaking a Benz !

[hehehoho]

Better take a train,

Like the one derailed, injuring 129 passengers yesterday?

[xthAi76s]

I don't know how the ladies came to the conclusion that statistics are hard to come by:

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

Many countries look dangerous compared with the UK, which is close to the best in the world at 4 deaths per 100,000 (America is three times worse). Thailand is in line with the global average at around 20 deaths per 100,000 of population.

Those that think Thailand is dangerous need to visit the truly bonkers countries. Having driven through it both ways on the hippy trail to India in the 70s, I was unsurprised to see that Iran's rate is nearly twice that of Thailand. Their macho culture causes them to drive at each other on mountain passes in an oft fatal game of chicken.

Nonetheless, although there are no stats about public transport deaths, I would expect that Thailand's long distance buses are many times more dangerous than their western equivalents (but probably no different from similar developing countries like the Philipines, India, Brazil etc). Also deaths per 100,000 population is a very imperfect measure - what is needed for a reliable measure of how unsafe travel is, would be a death per 100,000 kilos travelled statistic (which would be almost impossible to construct).

Maybe a worldwide study of public transport deaths and/or tourist transport deaths would be a good subject for someone's undergrad project.

I would like to see NCA make some advertising mileage of their apparently better standard of driving. I observe on my drives from Isaan to Bangkok that they are rarely in the 'violently swaying dangerously overtaking' mode, so often favoured by those over-painted VIP wallahs. Perhaps if Thais could be encouraged by the private sector operators to value safety there would be more focus on it. Pigs might fly; when I observed to my wife that I would probably only travel in NCA if I could, she dismissed it with a predictable 'paeng mahk'.

Any undergrad statistics 101 course would caution you against trusting in statistics held up by 3rd world countries, and I believe that's particularly true with respect to those countries with FACE to save.

It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that one would trust the stats. What checks are there to ensure that things are 1) being reported and that they 2) are being reported accurately? Statistics don't come from God; they are man-made. We should be more realistic and think more about it.

Edited December 29, 2011 by ThailandMan

[Pib]

If Thai drivers would just treat each other on the road like they generally treat visitors to their homes then the driving situation in Thailand would be a 100 times more safe and courteous. But once most Thais get behind the wheel their whole attitude changes...they are now race drivers.

Mentioning courteous, there is very, very little courtesy displayed on the roads of Thailand for other vehicles and pedistrains....everyone is trying to gain that additional meter and second in where ever they are going regardless of the dangerous vehicle moves and speeds involved to make those gains...you would think most everyone is trying to get to the hospital emergency room...and lord knows you don't want to maintain a safe driving distance from the vehicle ahead of you because someone will gain that meter/second by cuttting into that safe space.

Yeap, Thai drivers should try some driving with courtesy in mind. I doubt they will ever truly care about safety, but maybe they could try being as courteous on the roads as they are in their homes--that's my New Years wish for 2012. I know, my wish has a snowball's chance in hell in coming true.

[sysardman]

for himself. The police do nothing but collect their bribes. I was paid 2000 baht once at a toll station because I was told I had gone over the speed limit, actually

Capealava must be the only one in Thailand to have ever got money from the BiB!!!

Sorry about that probably English is not your first language but it made me laugh, as for johnsuma I had a lot of trouble even following your post. And one other person I noticed is using where instead of were (used twice at least so not a typo) were as in 'we were on our way to Bangkok' as opposed to where as in "where is Bangkok?" (not the actual phrases used by the poster)

[xthAi76s]

If Thai drivers would just treat each other on the road like they generally treat visitors to their homes then the driving situation in Thailand would be a 100 times more safe and courteous. But once most Thais get behind the wheel their whole attitude changes...they are now race drivers.

Mentioning courteous, there is very, very little courtesy displayed on the roads of Thailand for other vehicles and pedistrains....everyone is trying to gain that additional meter and second in where ever they are going regardless of the dangerous vehicle moves and speeds involved to make those gains...you would think most everyone is trying to get to the hospital emergency room...and lord knows you don't want to maintain a safe driving distance from the vehicle ahead of you because someone will gain that meter/second by cuttting into that safe space.

Yeap, Thai drivers should try some driving with courtesy in mind. I doubt they will ever truly care about safety, but maybe they could try being as courteous on the roads as they are in their homes--that's my New Years wish for 2012. I know, my wish has a snowball's chance in hell in coming true.

I just finished reading a book that discussed this type of thing. The book argues that Thais operate in 3 social circles of increasing indifference. They are: family circle, cautious circle and selfish circle.

Take a peek at: http://www.thingsasi...ies-photos/2704

From the link above

"For example, why can such an otherwise gentle and non-confrontational people be such aggressive drivers? How can they be so compassionate in certain circumstances and so callous in others? And why do English-speaking Thais in the company of an English-speaking foreigner nevertheless insist on speaking Thai?

The authors argue that the answers to the first two questions depend upon what they call the three circles of Thai social interactions: the Family, Cautious, and selfish circles respectively. Basically the list proceeds in ascending order of indifference. The guy cutting you off on the road, or cutting in front of you in a queue, calculates that he will probably never encounter you again and can therefore afford to be assertive."

[tomdfc]

I have driven in Thailand for 6 years now. I think of it as a miracle that I have been unscathed so far. I am reconciled that my luck will not last, though I do all I can to defer that day. I never drive without two hands on the steering wheel. I try never to take my eyes off the road - and that means looking in every direction continuously. Every short local trip (in Chiang Mai, where I stay) runs up a long catalogue of driving indiscretions, any one of which would / should be a bookable offence. I continue to be puzzled by the general behaviour which everyone seems to exhibit on the road here - meaning, it seems to be so much at odds which the lovely and loveable character of so many ordinary Thais. There is absolutely no courtesy ever shown, everyone is hell-bent of getting from A to B at maximum speed, there is no lane discipline, "big cars" have a self-assumed priority over lesser vehicles and often overtake crossing hard dividing lines to do so, forcing you to swerve into inside motor cycle lanes - in the hope that no unfortunate is then overtaking you on the inside - which is also not uncommon, there is very clearly no understanding of even normal common-sense road rules, most people routinely run red lights (at speeds which would impress Sebastian Vettel), etc. I shudder when I see the condition of buses, lorries and pick-up trucks, especially given the speed at which they drive. I am impressed by the night vision which many people have - since they seem to be able to drive without lights well after sundown. I cringe when I see the jam-packed "visa run" mini-vans careering onward to ensure a one-day turnaround at Mae Sai. For me, wiser by dint of my time here, it is a choice of course. But innocent and unassuming should know the risks. Every life is precious.

[Basil B]

The issue is not the roads but the users...

[xthAi76s]

I have driven in Thailand for 6 years now. I think of it as a miracle that I have been unscathed so far. I am reconciled that my luck will not last, though I do all I can to defer that day. I never drive without two hands on the steering wheel. I try never to take my eyes off the road - and that means looking in every direction continuously. Every short local trip (in Chiang Mai, where I stay) runs up a long catalogue of driving indiscretions, any one of which would / should be a bookable offence. I continue to be puzzled by the general behaviour which everyone seems to exhibit on the road here - meaning, it seems to be so much at odds which the lovely and loveable character of so many ordinary Thais. There is absolutely no courtesy ever shown, everyone is hell-bent of getting from A to B at maximum speed, there is no lane discipline, "big cars" have a self-assumed priority over lesser vehicles and often overtake crossing hard dividing lines to do so, forcing you to swerve into inside motor cycle lanes - in the hope that no unfortunate is then overtaking you on the inside - which is also not uncommon, there is very clearly no understanding of even normal common-sense road rules, most people routinely run red lights (at speeds which would impress Sebastian Vettel), etc. I shudder when I see the condition of buses, lorries and pick-up trucks, especially given the speed at which they drive. I am impressed by the night vision which many people have - since they seem to be able to drive without lights well after sundown. I cringe when I see the jam-packed "visa run" mini-vans careering onward to ensure a one-day turnaround at Mae Sai. For me, wiser by dint of my time here, it is a choice of course. But innocent and unassuming should know the risks. Every life is precious.

Read my post above for more information about Thai culture and how their interaction is highly influenced by the perceived importance of that interaction.

[englishinsiam]

I am slowly educating my wifes family in Chachoengaso to start getting licences and wear helmets and seatbelts. I have so far talked Half of them into getting a licence and am now working on getting them to buckle up whenever they get in a car.

It's taken 2 years of nagging and safety first comments. I crap myself whenever I take our Scooter around Pattaya never go above 60KMH's and am constantly looking around expecting some idiot to cut in front of me.

When driving my car it gets to me when I am indicating left the Buffalo that insist on coming up the left to get past me before I turn off. My mirrors are the most widely used item in my car. We always without exception where our seatbelts and our son has a properly fitted babyseat. We won't take our son out on the Motorbike until he is at least 8 and has his own helmet and even then if there is 3 of us we'll take the car.

I am always appalled by the non standards of driving in this country. My wife remarked how calm and safe (even though busier) the roads in England were. I told her yes it's because we are taught how to drive safely and the Police are not money grabbing buffalo, they are a professionally trained well paid force.