The Undocumented Dangers Of Thailand's Roads

[cowslip]

It all comes back to education and changing the way people think.

First, would be to get parents stop buying bikes for their school children (some very young)... They learn bad road habits from the start.

Second.. Pay Police wages that they can survive on and would be less inclined to accept a few measly baht to let people get away with things such as roadworthy vehicles, drunk drivers, people not obeying road rules, etc.

This all takes a lot of money to run through the economy, so the Third would be to put in place "checks and balances" so money invested in economy is just that .... and not filtered through officials/companies so the end result is just a small portion to fix a road or install a set of lights or to monitor roadworthy buses/vehicles.

"It all comes back to education and changing the way people think."

Here is a n example of someone who really doesn't see the picture clearly - "all comes back"????? - this is a best only half the problem.

Edited December 30, 2011 by cowslip

[philhal2]

In a society that tolerates 8 year olds on motorcycles on the roads , where licences to drive are granted after 1 lap of a carpark behind the licencing office , where it is impossible to obtain any copy of a regulated set of road rules , where even the police see fit to drive after consumng local alcholic beverages , where it is deemed fit to drive on the wrong side of the road if you need to overtake on a blind bend ,where no theory test is required , where many of the drivers do not even know it is not acceptable to drive through red lights , where the mindset is this is Thailand and we do things the way Thai people can do them , regardless of the danger or the stupidity .

Do not think there is any way to change this country unless you have billions of $$ to bring the necessary actions including education and political persuasion into play hardball , just the political persuasion alone would break most financial institutions .

[cowslip]

Let's face it, what is happening here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Most of those who chose to post a "solution" here are as clueless about driving or rather road safety as the clueless examples they choose to base their ill thought out generalisations on in the first place.

Most of the "western" drivers I see simply don't know how to drive without following their native country's driving code and are completely incapable of adapting to different road situations whether here or "at home". Then they get indignant when they nearly get involved in or witness an accident - truth being they just can't figure it out and are airing their frustrations caused by their own inabilities - both driving and critical.

[Brian Allen]

.... 13,766 people were killed last year on Thailand roads ....

In cars and/or reported as road-accident deaths, perhaps.

But knowledgeable Thai friends and colleagues tell me the number of deaths during the past ten years or so is closer to about 100 (70 of them, motorcycle related and few of those reported as road-accident related) per day. Plus or minus, that is, 36,000 annual deaths. That kind of number is also my sense of what might be expected, given Thailand's simply awful road-safety/motoring standards -- and I've also heard estimates as high as 60,000.

I've been in and out of Thailand for fifty years, have lived here an aggregate fifteen or so years and, from Mae Sai to Sadau and/or to Songai Kolok -- and often on to Singapore -- have averaged driving 12 to 1500 miles or so a month and, although I am but passing on scuttlebutt, have never had occasion to doubt the friends and colleagues in question.The Thai road toll is pretty darned startling!

[xthAi76s]

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

Edited December 30, 2011 by ThailandMan

[hyperdimension]

.... 13,766 people were killed last year on Thailand roads ....

So that's around 38 people per day on average. However how many actually make it into the news? I think every single death should be shown on the news, like a daily "road deaths" segment on television and / or a regular page in newspapers. It should provide details of time of the accident, name of the person(s) killed, location, circumstances and cause. Publishing details of all road deaths would make drivers more wary when they are on the road. At the moment, based on what we see in the media, there is no indication that there are around 38 road deaths per day on average, or around 3 deaths every 2 hours on average.

[CosmicSurfer]

Here is why nothing will be done: NOBODY CARES!! very simple. there is complete apathy about pretty much anything here. Something as seemingly simple as getting information of how your children died takes forever with no answers at all???!!!

This is what kind of country it is. Love it or leave it? NO! Everyone has a right as citizens or visitors to get basic human rights..you can disagree if you want.

From the simplest things to the most complicated, Thailand does NOT care.

Absolutely CORRECT !!!!

CS

[tukkytuktuk]

The majority of road fatalities are people who don't wear a helmet when riding on a motorcycle. Strict laws supportinv this wkll save countless lives. The cost of a helmet ranges from 200 baht to 1,000 baht. Also, seat belts save thousands of lives each year. The same enforcement of this would save lives. The solution to problems is easy to deduce, the impletation of solutions is hard to encourage.

[tropo]

It all comes back to education and changing the way people think.

First, would be to get parents stop buying bikes for their school children (some very young)... They learn bad road habits from the start.

People never stop talking about the dangers of riding bikes in Thailand. Statistically they may not be as dangerous as people think considering the number of bikes on the roads here.

[hellodolly]

In a society that tolerates 8 year olds on motorcycles on the roads , where licences to drive are granted after 1 lap of a carpark behind the licencing office , where it is impossible to obtain any copy of a regulated set of road rules , where even the police see fit to drive after consumng local alcholic beverages , where it is deemed fit to drive on the wrong side of the road if you need to overtake on a blind bend ,where no theory test is required , where many of the drivers do not even know it is not acceptable to drive through red lights , where the mindset is this is Thailand and we do things the way Thai people can do them , regardless of the danger or the stupidity .

Do not think there is any way to change this country unless you have billions of $$ to bring the necessary actions including education and political persuasion into play hardball , just the political persuasion alone would break most financial institutions .

You forgot driving the wrong way on one way streets and driving on the sidewalk.

[hellodolly]

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

It would be interesting to see the break down on autos as compared to bikes.

Then the difference between bike riders with a helmet on and the ones without one.

Also the number of tourists doing the driving as compared to the Thai's.

Easy to say this or that is wrong but show some related facts. Also bear in mind that the emergency response time here for medical help is slow and not always that good any how. Perhaps if it was as good as where many of us come from the death statistics would go way down.

[lovetotravel]

A majority of Thailand's traffic woes are due to corruption. Either police corruption or government corruption (i.e. not enough funds to build things properly). In my hometown in the West, there was a stretch of road they called the death highway. Accidents almost every day and fatalities almost every week. Reason? Excessive speeding and no center divider.

Guess what? Extra police were added and the police now have ZERO tolerance for speeding. Fines are handed out left and right. A center divider has been added so cars don't cross the median and hit cars coming the other way. Government and police response solved a very deadly problem. You now see very few people speeding and very few accidents.

You pick out a very important point...traffic engineering - this is absolutely crucial for safe roads and cannot be achieved in a corrupt society, for the reasons you alluded to.

If you look even at the apparently "safest" countries in the world - the ones that don't actually live up to this - e.g. USA and Australia, actually have pretty poor traffic engineering.

Actually, my reference was to the US. I've traveled all over the world and the West (US, Europe, etc) has some pretty good traffic engineering. And pretty good enforcement. The heavy crack down on drunk driving has done wonders. Enforcement is the key. Better enforcement would keep people from going the wrong way on roads, riding without helmets, driving under the influence,etc. But that won't happen until the police force is reformed.

[erska]

A majority of Thailand's traffic woes are due to corruption. Either police corruption or government corruption (i.e. not enough funds to build things properly). In my hometown in the West, there was a stretch of road they called the death highway. Accidents almost every day and fatalities almost every week. Reason? Excessive speeding and no center divider.

Guess what? Extra police were added and the police now have ZERO tolerance for speeding. Fines are handed out left and right. A center divider has been added so cars don't cross the median and hit cars coming the other way. Government and police response solved a very deadly problem. You now see very few people speeding and very few accidents.

You pick out a very important point...traffic engineering - this is absolutely crucial for safe roads and cannot be achieved in a corrupt society, for the reasons you alluded to.

If you look even at the apparently "safest" countries in the world - the ones that don't actually live up to this - e.g. USA and Australia, actually have pretty poor traffic engineering.

Actually, my reference was to the US. I've traveled all over the world and the West (US, Europe, etc) has some pretty good traffic engineering. And pretty good enforcement. The heavy crack down on drunk driving has done wonders. Enforcement is the key. Better enforcement would keep people from going the wrong way on roads, riding without helmets, driving under the influence,etc. But that won't happen until the police force is reformed.

[erska]

id like to say first that im sorry for the loss of any life, but i enjoy riding on thai roads i find it easer than western countrys, in aust. I dont ride on the roads much any more due to the dangers, Thai roads also have dangers but i think (as a motorcyclest) things flow much better & you can for see the hazzards. I dont want to change this contry into the one have left as defeats the reason for being here, i embrace the culture & take it for what it is. Anyway there just my thoughts..................enjoy

[johnsuma]

I was paid 2000 baht once at a toll station because I was told I had gone over the speed limit, actually I was under the speed limit. He said he had me on Radar. There is know radar there.. I told him I would not pay him and he said ok. We will impound your vehicle and then you will have to make your way to the station across town on foot. I paid of course.

1. Overspeed fine (legal one) is 400THB, as far as I know.

2. Overspeeding does not require vehicle impounding.

He must just issue you the ticket and let you go. You must pay that prior to the next annual TC of your vehicle otherwice you'll not be able to prolong that and get a new ЕС sticker........

...and of course this is Thailand, and I always get my ЕС stickers even without bringing my vehicle in. Should I care for issued ickets? I don't think so... Of course it is illegal the way of living in LOS, used by majority and thus is legal somehow.

Wowww some tourists are really very stupid, the price for over speed is usually 200 Baht (that is what they charge me 2 years ago) and you get a receipt from officer at a regular checking point. In a gaz station it was certainly on of these "police officer" thief. I had something like that with a police on motobike in BKK that want to charge me with 500 Bahts, because I made a turn at a wrong place, I got my camera, and make a picture of his dirty face, he panicked and told me to go away, he forgot about the money ....

All are corrupted officer in Thailand, and be carefull in case of accident with a Thai, police "officer" make fake documents in order you have to pay for damages. Seems to be the law!!!! As "juges" share and enforce that behaviours.

Edited December 31, 2011 by johnsuma

[xthAi76s]

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

It would be interesting to see the break down on autos as compared to bikes.

Then the difference between bike riders with a helmet on and the ones without one.

Also the number of tourists doing the driving as compared to the Thai's.

Easy to say this or that is wrong but show some related facts. Also bear in mind that the emergency response time here for medical help is slow and not always that good any how. Perhaps if it was as good as where many of us come from the death statistics would go way down.

Yes, the statistical breakdown would be very nice to see. I fear, though, that it would be some time before we could really trust the statistics to be reasonably accurate.

Just a word about helmets. Many have said that helmets on motorcycles would make a big impact on keeping the deaths down. I have not studied this kind of thing, but I just don't think that a person has a significantly better chance wearing a helmet if he/she is going as fast as most of these guys go. Sure, it would help, but I just don't know how much. The human body is fragile with or without the helmets unfortunately.

[lovetotravel]

Yes, the statistical breakdown would be very nice to see. I fear, though, that it would be some time before we could really trust the statistics to be reasonably accurate.

Just a word about helmets. Many have said that helmets on motorcycles would make a big impact on keeping the deaths down. I have not studied this kind of thing, but I just don't think that a person has a significantly better chance wearing a helmet if he/she is going as fast as most of these guys go. Sure, it would help, but I just don't know how much. The human body is fragile with or without the helmets unfortunately.

Helmets make a huge difference. As does other protective gear. Proper footwear, gloves, leathers, etc. None of which get worn here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_helmet

A 2008 systematic review^[1] examined studies on motorcycle riders who had crashed and looked at helmet use as an intervention. The review concluded that helmets reduce the risk of head injury by around 69% and death by around 42%.

You can survive broken bones, but not a broken head.

[xthAi76s]

Yes, the statistical breakdown would be very nice to see. I fear, though, that it would be some time before we could really trust the statistics to be reasonably accurate.

Just a word about helmets. Many have said that helmets on motorcycles would make a big impact on keeping the deaths down. I have not studied this kind of thing, but I just don't think that a person has a significantly better chance wearing a helmet if he/she is going as fast as most of these guys go. Sure, it would help, but I just don't know how much. The human body is fragile with or without the helmets unfortunately.

Helmets make a huge difference. As does other protective gear. Proper footwear, gloves, leathers, etc. None of which get worn here.

http://en.wikipedia....torcycle_helmet

A 2008 systematic review^[1] examined studies on motorcycle riders who had crashed and looked at helmet use as an intervention. The review concluded that helmets reduce the risk of head injury by around 69% and death by around 42%.

You can survive broken bones, but not a broken head.

I see. Stand corrected. I forgot that you can die from hitting your head not too terribly hard onto asphalt/concrete...

[spidermike007]

Perhaps the biggest impediment to road safety is the Thai police, and the lack of driving etiquette, taught to new drivers here. In many countries of the world, we drive safely and courteously, out of consideration (based on the driving etiquette training we have received), and fear of the police. There is no fear of the police here. They have little interest in making sure the public drives safely. They are like toy soldiers, and have little skill, desire, motivation, and ability to ensure the public's safety. In Koh Samui, the police are the worst in Thailand. They never issue speeding tickets, and though the police chief exclaims on occasion, when several people die in motorbike accidents on a period of a few days, that he will force his department to enforce the helmet law, it never gets done. They continue to collect 500 baht tea money fines. But, no bikes are confiscated, and nobody faces anything but the inconvenience of paying a small fine. They pull people over for a few days, and then it goes away. The lack of helmet enforcement is the single biggest cause of motorbike related deaths on the island. And that figure is up to 60 per month! Mostly farengs, who go home in wooden boxes, due mostly to ineffective law enforcement, by the toy police here. The mayor does not care, nor does the Surat Thani govt., nor the central govt., or something would be done about this travesty. Also, in Lamai Beach they do not even enforce the one way driving, resulting in many accidents. The police in Thailand are the most amateur group of law enforcement agents in the world, perhaps with the exception of Guyana, Surinam, and maybe a couple of sub Saharan countries in Africa. And this is the 22nd largest economy in the world? Not for too much longer, I fear.

[Pinot]

I agree with the above post. In three years of driving here, I've never seen or heard of a traffic stop where a cop will pull someone over. No driving laws are ever enforced here so why would you obey any law? Driving here is a cage match with no ref, anything goes! They only way to change things are to start enforcing laws. That's not about to start anytime soon.

This is Thailand:

A German told me he was the only witness in a fatal accident that day. He had seen a pickup truck knock a motorbike off the road. The falang driver of the motorbike went into a boulder and was there lying with a broken neck, dead. The pickup driver stops walks over to the dead falang and says to the German, "He's okay," and drives off. The cops show up soon afterwards and the German says to the top cop on the scene, "I saw Thai driver in pickup truck hit motorbike off the road." The cop said, "Listen to me. Driver not Thai. Driver falang." Case closed.

[E1717007]

In general, from my experience driving in Chiang Mai, most drivers have absolutely no road sense, no common sense and an attitude of "its not my fault" when they drive. To call them brainless idiots would be an insult to brainless idiots.

+1....That is correct!

[gemguy]

What I have noticed for over 20 years of living here is 2 factors that would increase the rate of accidents. One is the way that the Thai drivers all practice the same thinking where they believe the other drivers will see what they are doing and give way or allow it to happen. Such as pulling out into traffic, they commonly just make the move ( especially if there is any room at all to make their move) while assuming and or relying on the other drivers to see what they are doing and accomodate them. It works most of the time but all too often it can result in an accident such as the bus accident explained here. They do that in part because they have no fear that they will get hit and the fact that 99 % of the time NO other Thai driver will accomodate them if they do not aggressively make their move. Second is the way that the Thais do not practise "defensive driving" and they will not change their course of action until the very last second believing they are "in the right" and the other driver is wrong and so the attitude itself causes a notable percent of the accidents. The "Me first attitude" and the lack of foresight is a big factor. You can see and feel it when you are in cross walk and no one will stop for you and the only way to get across the road in a cross walk is to step out in the cross walk and step in front of the traffic when there is a slight break in the traffic. I have noticed that near everytime that the on coming car, that deperately trys to squeese by the pedestrians and nearly hits someone but has to come to an abrupt stop to accomodate the pedestrians, is driven by a woman. If there is 1 foot of room they will try to steer around you while they are going through the cross walk. It is also a case of monkey see and monkey do and what ever the others do the others will commonly copy the style of driving. Those are just some of the factors I have noticed amongst all the other bad to terrible driving habits of the Thais. But you know what..in their simple minds they think they are the best drivers in the whole world and in thier minds why would they believe or think there is any need to actually think "too much" about what they are doing rather than "just drive" and get from point A to B. If an accident happens it is something or someone elses fault and bad Karma rather than bad driving on their part or lack of thinking about what they are about to do or already doing. On a side note: 4 times I have been in a taxi cab when the cab I was in was involved in a minor accident. Each time I just threw the driver some money ( more than the agreed fair, back in the day or more than the meter posted ) and got out and quickly walked away. Once, the driver tried to grab me as I was exiting and make me stay and be responsible for his involvement in his accident. If you did happen to stay around or your hurt enough and can not get away there is very good chance you will be the one paying and or held responsble for the accident because they need someone ( something ) to blame anyhow and their logic is that you caused the accident because you told the cab driver to go to where you told him too go or go the "way" where the accident happened so the logic says it would not have happened if you had not told the taxi driver to go the way where the accident DID happen. Farangs make great escape goats anyhow for the Thai's driving incompetance. I once saw a major motor cycle(s) / car(s) accident at the intersection of Sathorn Road and Surasak Road in Bangkok. The light was unusually long (controled by the police ) and it looked like about 100 motorcycles had weaved their way through the traffic ( another notable cause of accidents ) and accumulated at the front of the traffic and the head of the intersection waiting for the red light to turn green. When it turned green all the motor cycles raced ahead and I can only surmise that one or 2 of the motorcycles at the front of the pack collided with one another and went down and the rest of the pack behind them just kept on racing ahead, including cars and trucks impatient to get moving again. It was gruesome to say the least and I came to the intersection on foot maybe 3 to 5 minutes after the accident and some of the accident victims had managed to move clear of the pile up of bikes and bodies that were twisted up and pinned within all the bikes and human limbs that other people were now pulling apart. Meantime no police officers were actually trying to stop all the rest of the traffic from attempting to go through the intersection or finding any room at all to squeese past the carnage in front of them...adding more mayhem to the already existing mayhem. It took at least 30 minutes before 1 ambulance finally arrived and piled in 6 or 7 of the injured persons and other people where already dragged off to the side along with 4 or maybe 5 people who looked to be dead or unconscious while lots of people were sitting around or laying on the curb nursing some really nasty wounds on various parts of their bodies. I noticed that lots of people were watching ..but not many were helping other than the accident people themselves helping one another and the police just told everyone else what to do and used their police radioes and came back and forth and into and out of their police box at the corner. I could hear ambulance sirens coming from different directions but 15 minutes later they had not arrived as they were stuck in the traffic and of course no one giving way or access to the ambulances. That is another thing I have noticed...hardly anyone at all heeds the sirens of the ambulances and makes room or gives way to ambulances rather they drive faster and or ignore the ambulances. Anyhow there was a whole lot of blood all over the middle of the intersection and lots of bike parts and plenty of twisted metal on display along with a few cars that had just plowed ahead and crashed into the back sector of the motorcycle pack. I lived in the area and I was on my way home and had to witness that nasty aftermath.

Edited December 31, 2011 by gemguy

[spidermike007]

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

It would be interesting to see the break down on autos as compared to bikes.

Then the difference between bike riders with a helmet on and the ones without one.

Also the number of tourists doing the driving as compared to the Thai's.

Easy to say this or that is wrong but show some related facts. Also bear in mind that the emergency response time here for medical help is slow and not always that good any how. Perhaps if it was as good as where many of us come from the death statistics would go way down.

Yes, the statistical breakdown would be very nice to see. I fear, though, that it would be some time before we could really trust the statistics to be reasonably accurate.

Just a word about helmets. Many have said that helmets on motorcycles would make a big impact on keeping the deaths down. I have not studied this kind of thing, but I just don't think that a person has a significantly better chance wearing a helmet if he/she is going as fast as most of these guys go. Sure, it would help, but I just don't know how much. The human body is fragile with or without the helmets unfortunately.

There was a recent study done on motorbike accidents in thailand. It found that 88% of the motorbike deaths in a one year period, were people not wearing helmets. Of course, the deaths could be caused by a number of reasons, but the head is a very fragile thing, and a head hitting concrete at 80kph gives you little chance, unless you have the protection of a helmet. Helmets DO MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

[FritsSikkink]

Everyone who drives on the roads regularly knows that minibus and other bus drivers are the worst on the roads.

Don't forget the motorcycles:

5 kids on 1 bike

Drunken tourists who never drove a bike before

[cowslip]

in the channel for documentary they showed people building " hand built buses "

without diagrams or plans...... and they talked about " pirate buses "

why don't the police check these things when they pass through the numerous police

checkpoints?

there is only one way to travel by bus safely in Thailand and that is this way:-

http://www.nca.co.th/firstclass.php

nonsense - just advertising.

[cowslip]

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

It would be interesting to see the break down on autos as compared to bikes.

Then the difference between bike riders with a helmet on and the ones without one.

Also the number of tourists doing the driving as compared to the Thai's.

Easy to say this or that is wrong but show some related facts. Also bear in mind that the emergency response time here for medical help is slow and not always that good any how. Perhaps if it was as good as where many of us come from the death statistics would go way down.

Yes, the statistical breakdown would be very nice to see. I fear, though, that it would be some time before we could really trust the statistics to be reasonably accurate.

Just a word about helmets. Many have said that helmets on motorcycles would make a big impact on keeping the deaths down. I have not studied this kind of thing, but I just don't think that a person has a significantly better chance wearing a helmet if he/she is going as fast as most of these guys go. Sure, it would help, but I just don't know how much. The human body is fragile with or without the helmets unfortunately.

There was a recent study done on motorbike accidents in thailand. It found that 88% of the motorbike deaths in a one year period, were people not wearing helmets. Of course, the deaths could be caused by a number of reasons, but the head is a very fragile thing, and a head hitting concrete at 80kph gives you little chance, unless you have the protection of a helmet. Helmets DO MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

right - you seem to be unaware of the purpose of wearing helmet......it will offer little or no protection to a direct hit at that sort of speed - the brain will suffer massive internal injuries and no helmet will save you.

what a helmet does is protect you against MINOR orGLANCING blows to the head - these can be at speeds as low as walking pace - without the hat you will die, this is why so many people die as most m/c accidents are a slow speed and near home. So the expression "I'm not going far" is actually tantamount to a suicide note

[cowslip]

It all comes back to education and changing the way people think.

First, would be to get parents stop buying bikes for their school children (some very young)... They learn bad road habits from the start.

Second.. Pay Police wages that they can survive on and would be less inclined to accept a few measly baht to let people get away with things such as roadworthy vehicles, drunk drivers, people not obeying road rules, etc.

This all takes a lot of money to run through the economy, so the Third would be to put in place "checks and balances" so money invested in economy is just that .... and not filtered through officials/companies so the end result is just a small portion to fix a road or install a set of lights or to monitor roadworthy buses/vehicles.

"It all comes back to education and changing the way people think."

Here is a n example of someone who really doesn't see the picture clearly - "all comes back"????? - this is a best only half the problem.

""It all comes back to education and changing the way people think."" - not true - people in countries with very low accident rates don't think either - you have to think for them.

Edited January 4, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

It doesn't matter how much you "educate" or legislate unless the roads match this death rates and other injuries will remain high.

You might want also to consider the types of vehicles that predominate on Thai roads - largely due to government regulation that favours pickups and more rudimentary vehicles.

[cowslip]

I've driven in Thailand for 5 years and I don't want to compare with another countries even if I had driven before. Let's stick to Thailand and I would say most of the drivers drive appallingly bad here. It's a fact. Daily I see cars reversing because they missed the exit from a highway while the other cars drive about 120 km/h. First of all it's illegal and so dangerous. They don't give a <deleted>. Furthermore what pisses me off is the tailing or aggressive driving. Daily I witness this. I see many drivers, while having a speed above 100km/h are driving very close 1-2m to the car in front. It's not just stupid but it's suicidal. So far I was hit by the other drivers twice a year for no reason whatsoever. Most of all I am hit from behind while I'm waiting the traffic lights, wading through the traffic or hit by reversing cars who forget to look in the mirrors. Once I was hit from behind because of emergency breaking I had because of an accident in front of me at the same time. I managed not to hit the car in front of me. Bu the f***er who was tailing me smashed into my car.

Talking about the present driving in Bangkok and Nonthaburi, as I drive mostly in these places went down the hill. The driving is worse than 5 years ago, especially now. Thailand is really f***ed up because of the floods. If in the past they would cover a pothole in 2 days, now because of floods the potholes are still there for more than a month. I don't talk about small potholes, I am talking about criminal potholes, 1.5 m large and 40 cm deep.

That was my rant, anyway be safe and watch out while you are driving, look in the mirrors all the time and be very careful if you change the lane or turn, as there are motorcycles appearing from nowhere or driving the opposite direction of the traffic.

and a good rant it was!

You say you don't want to compare........" Let's stick to Thailand and I would say most of the drivers drive appallingly bad here." - but this can only be asserted by comparison with elsewhere - otherwise how do we know what is "good" or "bad"? - Do we have to assume that this is as good as it gets??????

Edited January 4, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

I don't know how the ladies came to the conclusion that statistics are hard to come by:

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

Many countries look dangerous compared with the UK, which is close to the best in the world at 4 deaths per 100,000 (America is three times worse). Thailand is in line with the global average at around 20 deaths per 100,000 of population.

Those that think Thailand is dangerous need to visit the truly bonkers countries. Having driven through it both ways on the hippy trail to India in the 70s, I was unsurprised to see that Iran's rate is nearly twice that of Thailand. Their macho culture causes them to drive at each other on mountain passes in an oft fatal game of chicken.

Nonetheless, although there are no stats about public transport deaths, I would expect that Thailand's long distance buses are many times more dangerous than their western equivalents (but probably no different from similar developing countries like the Philipines, India, Brazil etc). Also deaths per 100,000 population is a very imperfect measure - what is needed for a reliable measure of how unsafe travel is, would be a death per 100,000 kilos travelled statistic (which would be almost impossible to construct).

Maybe a worldwide study of public transport deaths and/or tourist transport deaths would be a good subject for someone's undergrad project.

I would like to see NCA make some advertising mileage of their apparently better standard of driving. I observe on my drives from Isaan to Bangkok that they are rarely in the 'violently swaying dangerously overtaking' mode, so often favoured by those over-painted VIP wallahs. Perhaps if Thais could be encouraged by the private sector operators to value safety there would be more focus on it. Pigs might fly; when I observed to my wife that I would probably only travel in NCA if I could, she dismissed it with a predictable 'paeng mahk'.

Any undergrad statistics 101 course would caution you against trusting in statistics held up by 3rd world countries, and I believe that's particularly true with respect to those countries with FACE to save.

It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that one would trust the stats. What checks are there to ensure that things are 1) being reported and that they 2) are being reported accurately? Statistics don't come from God; they are man-made. We should be more realistic and think more about it.

actually anyone with the slightest knowledge of stats will look at these stats and realise that they are the basis for some conclusions and ae worthwhile - they would also look at the source not the country.......to simply try and be clever by criticising stats will-nilli is just childish.