Steely Dan Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Iran has never threatened the annihalation of Israel, that is propaganda media claptrap. The US is up to it's neck supporting terrorist organizations and Israel is not following any Nuclear treaty because it is amongst company like North Korea who wont sign any treaty. Contraire, I believe many posters on here would like to see a 'pre emptive mushroom cloud' over Tehran and they would find some way of justifying it under the 'just in case' catagory. It is an exercise in futility batting this one back and forth all day. For what it's worth I think Iraq II was a mistake on pragmatic grounds if not moral ones, the reason being we replaced an evil but rational regime with anarchy potentially leading to an evil but irrational regime. Libya was the same mistake exactly, Iran since the overthrow of the Shah has become both evil and irrational, which is why under no circumstances should they be trusted with nuclear weapons. If for the sake of argument it is conceded that Iraq was a mistake and there were no WMD's this does not mean the same applies to Iran, indeed thinking may be biased by previous mistakes resulting in the opposite even more costly mistake being made. Here is some more from the American Thinker article I posted before, the Iranian regime is evil, no question, but is it rational - yes or no? One prominent ayatollah, Mesbah Yazdi, one of Iran's leading advocates of Islamic end times' ideology, has stated that Khamenei ascends to the sky every year for five hours to meet with Imam Mahdi and to consult about what action to take next. It is said that Khamenei has been told by Imam Mahdi to continue full speed with the Iranian nuclear program and not to fear anyone or any threats. That fanatical belief could become a self-fulfilling prophecy should Revolutionary Guard forces launch a nuclear attack against Israel. Iranian leaders have often stated their goal is to destroy the Jewish state. Read more: http://www.americant...l#ixzz1iYeTvgXd P.S. We have a David Koresh type situation with the lunatic reaching for the nuclear trigger it's that clear cut Edited January 5, 2012 by Steely Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkaew Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Iran had a very responsible, democratically elected (the first in the Middle East) Government. The US took it out and put the 'Shah' back on the throne. It was the Shah that established the secret police, the torture and abuse of Iran's civilians. The rest is history and 'blowback' from the US intervention to take out a democratic Government that bothered nobody. The FACT in all of this is as has already been stated, the IAEA "found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq"; the IAEA concluded that certain items which could have been used in nuclear enrichment centrifuges, such as aluminum tubes, were in fact intended for other uses". Why can countries not pursue energy policies that will remove the inefficient and in a few decades soon to be defunct fossil fuel technologies? It is all about control! Do you know that the US has intervened and stopped African nations building coal powered electricity stations because of global warming. They are not allowed nuclear, so in fact have nothing. When asked how do villages ever get electricity and the nation develop the US said put solar panels on the roofs of the mud huts. One solar panel costing about 10 years salary of the average African villager. Its all about control. Jingthing, can you explain what is your gripe about the Rothschilds and their financial interests in all but 5 (now 4) of the worlds central banks. Why is that 'filth'? you know that deep down he is proud of that. Maybe N. Korea will fall any day now, but admittedly that would/will be better for the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomTao Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Is the Iranian regime rational? No. The country is controlled by the religious elite, they are awaiting the arrival of the Mahdi, last I heard the Mahdi arrival will be preceeded by an act of extreme violence on a global scale. Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkaew Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Jingthing, can you explain what is your gripe about the Rothschilds and their financial interests in all but 5 (now 4) of the worlds central banks. Why is that 'filth'? No, because I don't think this is the proper place for you to work out your anti-semitism issues. or because you have not bothered to do any research. Or because you have no answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Jingthing, can you explain what is your gripe about the Rothschilds and their financial interests in all but 5 (now 4) of the worlds central banks. Why is that 'filth'? No, because I don't think this is the proper place for you to work out your anti-semitism issues. or because you have not bothered to do any research. Or because you have no answer. I'm sure you have done lots of "research" on the thousands of antisemitic websites. Off topic, yes, move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkaew Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Jingthing, can you explain what is your gripe about the Rothschilds and their financial interests in all but 5 (now 4) of the worlds central banks. Why is that 'filth'? No, because I don't think this is the proper place for you to work out your anti-semitism issues. or because you have not bothered to do any research. Or because you have no answer. I'm sure you have done lots of "research" on the thousands of antisemitic websites. Off topic, yes, move on. still no answer! Just unfounded anti-Semitic shielding. Is anyone criticising the Israel administration anti-Semitic? Is anyone criticising Goldman Sachs anti-Semitic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Iran has never threatened the annihalation of Israel, that is propaganda media claptrap. The US is up to it's neck supporting terrorist organizations and Israel is not following any Nuclear treaty because it is amongst company like North Korea who wont sign any treaty. Contraire, I believe many posters on here would like to see a 'pre emptive mushroom cloud' over Tehran and they would find some way of justifying it under the 'just in case' catagory. It is an exercise in futility batting this one back and forth all day. For what it's worth I think Iraq II was a mistake on pragmatic grounds if not moral ones, the reason being we replaced an evil but rational regime with anarchy potentially leading to an evil but irrational regime. Libya was the same mistake exactly, Iran since the overthrow of the Shah has become both evil and irrational, which is why under no circumstances should they be trusted with nuclear weapons. If for the sake of argument it is conceded that Iraq was a mistake and there were no WMD's this does not mean the same applies to Iran, indeed thinking may be biased by previous mistakes resulting in the opposite even more costly mistake being made. Here is some more from the American Thinker article I posted before, the Iranian regime is evil, no question, but is it rational - yes or no? One prominent ayatollah, Mesbah Yazdi, one of Iran's leading advocates of Islamic end times' ideology, has stated that Khamenei ascends to the sky every year for five hours to meet with Imam Mahdi and to consult about what action to take next. It is said that Khamenei has been told by Imam Mahdi to continue full speed with the Iranian nuclear program and not to fear anyone or any threats. That fanatical belief could become a self-fulfilling prophecy should Revolutionary Guard forces launch a nuclear attack against Israel. Iranian leaders have often stated their goal is to destroy the Jewish state. Read more: http://www.americant...l#ixzz1iYeTvgXd P.S. We have a David Koresh type situation with the lunatic reaching for the nuclear trigger it's that clear cut Sadly it is not really clear cut. Remember there would be no whack job Ayatollahs if the original democratic Government had been left alone. The placement of the Shah caused the issues in Iran leading to the Revolution and the rise to power of the religious nut jobs. They were never in influence with the democratic Government. As for going up to heaven for 5 mins a year to chat with God and the dead is that any different to Billy Swaggart, Benny Hinn and more importantly George W Bush, stating 'God is on our side', he speaks with God. A religious lunatic with their finger on the nuclear trigger? Not to judge everything on previous performance as you rightly say, but ...Vietnam..a lie and a mistake, Iraq..a lie and a mistake, Libya ...a very convenient mistake (seems Gaddhafi made the same mistake as Hussein, silly man, he was going to change the countries oil currency to something other than the US $).. So really, don't you think citizens of the world should expect a little caution on this one? The track record is far from good. Look how powerful the media propaganda machine is, they tell you WMD's in Iraq, you believe, they tell you Iran says 'wipe Israel off the map', you believe. It is time you started thinking for your self, you are a clever fella. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomTao Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I thought this was a discussion about Iran test firing missiles and the implications thereof, not Israel or antisemitism. Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Jingthing, can you explain what is your gripe about the Rothschilds and their financial interests in all but 5 (now 4) of the worlds central banks. Why is that 'filth'? No, because I don't think this is the proper place for you to work out your anti-semitism issues. How funny and convenient. Be careful there Jingthing, that's bordering on defamation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I thought this was a discussion about Iran test firing missiles and the implications thereof, not Israel or antisemitism. Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com Tom Tao Iran and Israel are sadly inseperable. There are reasons for the test firing of missiles and the escalation of war games in the Gulf of Hormuz. Jingthing is the only one mentioning anti semitism, it is the mantra he hides behind when he is beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Sadly it is not really clear cut. Remember there would be no whack job Ayatollahs if the original democratic Government had been left alone. The placement of the Shah caused the issues in Iran leading to the Revolution and the rise to power of the religious nut jobs. They were never in influence with the democratic Government. As for going up to heaven for 5 mins a year to chat with God and the dead is that any different to Billy Swaggart, Benny Hinn and more importantly George W Bush, stating 'God is on our side', he speaks with God. A religious lunatic with their finger on the nuclear trigger? Not to judge everything on previous performance as you rightly say, but ...Vietnam..a lie and a mistake, Iraq..a lie and a mistake, Libya ...a very convenient mistake (seems Gaddhafi made the same mistake as Hussein, silly man, he was going to change the countries oil currency to something other than the US $).. So really, don't you think citizens of the world should expect a little caution on this one? The track record is far from good. Look how powerful the media propaganda machine is, they tell you WMD's in Iraq, you believe, they tell you Iran says 'wipe Israel off the map', you believe. It is time you started thinking for your self, you are a clever fella. G.W Bush is no longer in power, so no longer a threat even if I were to hypothetically accept your premise. I am pretty certain he didn't get transported to heaven on a winged horse every year to chat with the founding fathers as to how best cause the coming of the messiah - In other words if you think there is any equivalence argument comparing the mental health of the U.S regime with the Iranian one then I can't really help you as I'm no psychiatrist. As for the Shah and U.S historical foreign policy, that is all besides the point, the insane ideology that replaced the Shah is what we are now dealing with and unfortunately the western governments have been in denial about the nature of said ideology, which imho is absolutely inseparable from any discussion of the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 [still no answer! Just unfounded anti-Semitic shielding. Is anyone criticising the Israel administration anti-Semitic? Is anyone criticising Goldman Sachs anti-Semitic? Well, considering that Goldman Sachs isn't "jewish", I don't know why you bring up the topic. GS has nothing to do with the Iranians trying to obtain nuclear weapons. I suppose you will claim that Lakishimi Mittel isn't really Indian but was secretly dropped from a space pod in Ashkelon where he morphed into super hebrew intending to create the Iranian missile crisis. Nor does the Rothschild family or group have have interests in 5 central banks. You cannot provide any reliable information to substantiate your claim. And please, the Lyndon Larouche website isn't a reliable source. Why do you insist on going off on a tangent that has no bearing on the subject at hand, except to provide what I would charitably term is a kooky explanation for the madness going on in Iran now? Seriously. give it a rest because you won't win any converts with the over the top conspiracy theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 unfortunately the western governments have been in denial about the nature of said ideology, which imho is absolutely inseparable from any discussion of the middle east. Really? If you were Germany and had relied on Iranian oil & gas, would you care as long as you got the energy? If you were dependent upon German co-operation on bigger trade and security issues, would you go along with Germany to keep it happy? How about making sure that the Turks were happy too? I don't think that the west is in denial. rather, they just don't know what to do as the problem is a lot bigger and far more complex than what is discussed in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Jingthing is the only one mentioning anti semitism, it is the mantra he hides behind when he is beat. The leadership in Iran want to wipe out the Jews and have said it repeatedly. You can't ignore that fact. Edited January 5, 2012 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) I don't have a difficult time telling the "bad" from the "good". Nope, not at all. There are even some countries which some might put in the "bad" category but they have a long, proven track record of being responsible with their nukes and that's good enough to earn them a pass. Well if you look at facts & deeds you might As for responsible with nukes........Only one country ever used nukes on a civilian population Yet you probably say the end justified the means......Why can no other say such? I am sure they are grouped with your *good* guys Who is to say Iran will not also have a good track record as you put it? One of your "bad" category but they have a long, proven track record of being responsible with their nukes and that's good enough to earn them a pass. Who died & made any one or two countries both with bad track records of actual bad deeds the police of the world? The FACTS are thus.....Iran has done nothing aggressive towards the US or Israel Yet both want to pre-emptive bomb them with the collateral damages/Murder of innocents. Lets leave aside the media rhetoric that Iran funded this or took out a contract on someone as both are media facts not based in reality. Edited January 5, 2012 by flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Who is to say Iran will not also have a good track record as you put it? That is a good one. Thanks for lightening up the forum a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The leadership in Iran want to wipe out the Jews and have said it repeatedly. You can't ignore that fact. A fact is based in reality/deeds so yes we can ignore that. What is hard to ignore is the fact that certain countries by their deeds are doing wrong daily yet expect a free pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johna Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I could not be bothered reading through every post, the first and last page told me everything I needed to know. Iran test fires missiles during a military exercise, and all this drama!!!! Iran is being threatened by the West on behalf of Israel, they are defending themselves, OK got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Jingthing is the only one mentioning anti semitism, it is the mantra he hides behind when he is beat. The leadership in Iran want to wipe out the Jews and have said it repeatedly. You can't ignore that fact. Well I can ignore it because it is not a fact. The Iranian President said that Israel must face regime change, 'The Israeli Regime must be wiped out'.That is the fact. Now we all know what we think about regime change. So contrary to your belief what was actually said was quite different. Iran were stating that the Israeli regime is evil and must be wiped out, nothing to do with wiping the Jews out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkjames Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Is this topic about war games or Israel? I lost count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The leadership in Iran want to wipe out the Jews and have said it repeatedly. You can't ignore that fact. A fact is based in reality/deeds so yes we can ignore that. The Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists are run by Iran,, so, sorry, no pass for the Iranian leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 unfortunately the western governments have been in denial about the nature of said ideology, which imho is absolutely inseparable from any discussion of the middle east. Really? If you were Germany and had relied on Iranian oil & gas, would you care as long as you got the energy? If you were dependent upon German co-operation on bigger trade and security issues, would you go along with Germany to keep it happy? How about making sure that the Turks were happy too? I don't think that the west is in denial. rather, they just don't know what to do as the problem is a lot bigger and far more complex than what is discussed in public. Actually, you may have a point, for simply ages it's as if open discussion of the root cause of middle eastern problems has seemed to be taboo. Then I read someone citing an extract from the book Watership down. Hazel: Is cowslip coming? Maybe he knows. Fiver: He wouldn’t come. He told me to stop talking about it Watership Down 1978 Richard Adams In the Book Watership down the Rabbits in Cowslip’s warren are comfortable, well fed and secure. When Bigwig gets caught in a snare at the warren Fiver runs to Cowslip for help, but he will not acknowledge the danger and in fact tells Fiver to keep quiet. He does this because he must. If the illusion of the warren’s comfort is shattered, the horrible price paid for it must be faced and he can’t bear it. As Fiver puts it in the book: Here is the link to the idea, though it is just for info as the only relevance to the current thread is the difficult and highly problematic situation we are facing. http://datechguyblog.com/2011/12/29/fiver-shrugs-and-the-silence-of-the-warren/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) The Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists are run by Iran,, so, sorry, no pass for the Iranian leadership. People who live in glass houses......... US Funds terror Groups to sow chaos in Iran http://www.telegraph...os-in-Iran.html http://www.globalres...5837&context=va The Bush administration has admitted that covert actions of an aggressive nature were applied against Iran and Syria. The stated objective was to wreck the countries' economies and currency systems. The infamous Iran-Syria Policy and Operations Group (ISOG) created in early 2006, integrated by officials from the White House, the State Department, the CIA and the Treasury Department, had a mandate to destabilize Syria and Iran, and bring about "Regime Change" :"The committee, the Iran-Syria Policy and Operations Group [iSOG], met weekly throughout much of 2006 to coordinate actions such as curtailing Iran's access to credit and banking institutions, organizing the sale of military equipment to Iran's neighbors and supporting forces that oppose the two regimes." (Boston Globe, 25 May 2007) ISOG had also been providing undercover assistance to Iranian opposition groups and dissidents. The group's propaganda ploy consisted in feeding disinformation into the news chain and "building international outrage toward Iran". (Boston Globe 2, January 2007) http://www.americabl...pport-anti.html Imagine if a group of leading American liberals met on foreign soil with -- and expressed vocal support for -- supporters of a terrorist group that had (a) a long history of hateful anti-American rhetoric, ( an active role in both the takeover of a U.S. embassy and Saddam Hussein's brutal 1991 repression of Iraqi Shiites, © extensive financial and military support from Saddam, (d) multiple acts of violence aimed at civilians, and (e) years of being designated a "Terrorist organization" by the U.S. under Presidents of both parties, a designation which is ongoing? The ensuing uproar and orgies of denunciation would be deafening.But on December 23, a group of leading conservatives -- including Rudy Giuliani and former Bush officials Michael Mukasey, Tom Ridge, and Fran Townsend -- did exactly that. In Paris, of all places, they appeared at a forum organized by supporters of the Mujaheddin-e Khalq (MEK) -- a group declared by the U.S. since 1997 to be "terrorist organization" -- and expressed wholesale support for that group. Worse -- on foreign soil -- they vehemently criticized their own country's opposition to these Terrorists and specifically "demanded that Obama instead take the [] group off the U.S. list of foreign terrorist organizations and incorporate it into efforts to overturn the mullah-led government in Tehran." http://www.infowars....p-against-iran/ A member of a terrorist organization operating in Iran says that a US State department radio station originally put him in touch with the group.Ali Motlaq is a member of The Royalist Association of Iran or Tondar, a terrorist group that has claimed responsibility for the attacks across Iran in the last 5 years. They have killed and wounded hundreds. Motlaq is currently under arrest for planting bombs and orchestrating the assassination of top Iranian figures. In an exclusive interview with Press TV’s IRAN TODAY, he said he first got in touch with the group through Radio Farda – a Persian language radio station funded by the US State Department. Iran has criticized the US for not naming the group as a terrorist one. Tondar is in Los Angeles where it has based its radio station and website. Edited January 5, 2012 by GentlemanJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Jingthing is the only one mentioning anti semitism, it is the mantra he hides behind when he is beat. The leadership in Iran want to wipe out the Jews and have said it repeatedly. You can't ignore that fact. Well I can ignore it because it is not a fact. The Iranian President said that Israel must face regime change, 'The Israeli Regime must be wiped out'.That is the fact. Now we all know what we think about regime change. So contrary to your belief what was actually said was quite different. Iran were stating that the Israeli regime is evil and must be wiped out, nothing to do with wiping the Jews out. You are being willfully naive if you think the difference between regime change and wiping out the Jews are two different things - I suggest you take a look at the demographics through history of all Countries on earth where Islam has become the majority faith, and at risk of going off topic in order to reply to your point I would observe the so called 'right of return' is an idea specifically intended to bring about said majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Jingthing is the only one mentioning anti semitism, it is the mantra he hides behind when he is beat. The leadership in Iran want to wipe out the Jews and have said it repeatedly. You can't ignore that fact. Well I can ignore it because it is not a fact. The Iranian President said that Israel must face regime change, 'The Israeli Regime must be wiped out'.That is the fact. Now we all know what we think about regime change. So contrary to your belief what was actually said was quite different. Iran were stating that the Israeli regime is evil and must be wiped out, nothing to do with wiping the Jews out. You are being willfully naive if you think the difference between regime change and wiping out the Jews are two different things - I suggest you take a look at the demographics through history of all Countries on earth where Islam has become the majority faith, and at risk of going off topic in order to reply to your point I would observe the so called 'right of return' is an idea specifically intended to bring about said majority. So was the goal of Regime change in Iraq (the reason now formally given for going to war) to wipe out the Iraqi people? Was the goal of Regime change in Egypt and libya to wipe out the Egyptian and libyan people? I am not quite sure it's me that's being naive. Edited January 5, 2012 by GentlemanJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Iran and the Palestinians want the Jews out of Israel. This isn't a secret. Stop acting like it is. Whether by mass murder or voluntary exile. Given the Jews won't all voluntarily leave, do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I am not quite sure it's me that's being naive. Your not I can assure you But if you try to talk sense/logic/facts here you will be beat down by the pom pom's of the cheer leaders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Iran and the Palestinians want the Jews out of Israel. This isn't a secret. Stop acting like it is. Whether by mass murder or voluntary exile. Given the Jews won't all voluntarily leave, do the math. Never heard that about Iran.......But as for Palestine.Facts suggest they are the ones getting beat out of their lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 So was the goal of Regime change in Iraq (the reason now formally given for going to war) to wipe out the Iraqi people? Was the goal of Regime change in Egypt and libya to wipe out the Egyptian and libyan people? I am not quite sure it's me that's being naive. Come on now, you know very well that secular democracies are not genocidal, though perhaps naively they do suspect their ideals can be applied directly to other cultures which hitherto had no democratic history or beliefs. As you keep mentioning Israel I think to make my point I could ask you to read about what happened in Sudan and is happening now in Egypt if you are having difficulty distinguishing what exactly regime change means to other cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I am not quite sure it's me that's being naive. Your not I can assure you But if you try to talk sense/logic/facts here you will be beat down by the pom pom's of the cheer leaders Do you pro Iranian people actually believe what you write, or do you think you can fool some new people?Also, regime change is change of a governing power, keeping the existing country intact. The enemies of Israel want the Israeli state to no longer exist. A much more radical goal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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