Common Courtesy In Thailand

[Fookhaht]

Skipping the previous 50+ replies.

Now right there is the height of rudeness.

Our 50+ posts are not worth your deep and thoughtful perusal?

[Berkshire]

Classic "I'm a grumpy old white man" thread.

I'll bet relevant posters are all 50 years plus in age and i should know i can feel myself becoming one - though am trying to fight it, because its just sad more than anything else.

You're absolutely right. So sad. So pathetically sad.

[Fookhaht]

Classic "I'm a grumpy old white man" thread.

I'll bet relevant posters are all 50 years plus in age and i should know i can feel myself becoming one - though am trying to fight it, because its just sad more than anything else.

You're absolutely right. So sad. So pathetically sad.

Some under-40 poster, please come to the rescue and prove these age-bigots wrong?

[StreetCowboy]

I try not to let other people's rudeness get me down; if I let their stupidity get me down I'd scarcely be on this forum so much

(now there's a bit of pots and kettles...)

SC

[brizzle]

I realize that we all view politeness and manners through the prism of our culture. But sometimes, the "Thai way" has me boggled. A case in point has recently gotten my goat.

A friend of mine's mother has to go from Naratiwat to Hat Yai weekly for medical treatment and what with the danger of being out on the road after dark, the kids decided to pitch in and buy a used car so someone could drive her. The problem is that car prices are even more exorbitant down there than up here in Bangkok, so they decided to buy one here. The next problem is that no one in the family is a good driver, or with an earned license (vice paid-for license), and they were afraid to drive it down south. Enter me. I was asked to help. And after a 6 hour day buying the car, another day getting it registered, and three days back and forth getting it repaired, I left New year's Eve at 3:00 AM for the trip. Due to torrential rains and car problems, I pulled into the small village at about 7:00 PM.

The mother did greet me, and one of the grandkids came up and gave me a sawadi kha, but the kids ignored me as they finished their dinner. A neighbor, full of New Year's cheer (homemade whiskey) called me over to offer me snort, but the family ignored me. No food, no greeting. The son came over shortly and asked for the keys, which i gave. This was the only time he addressed me. I gave him the keys, then he turned and walked off.

I am basically in house arrest until daybreak (the soldiers would not let anyone in nor out of the village), sitting in a small concrete home, with not enough light to even read. As I was tired from driving all day, I fell asleep early. In the morning, once again, no greeting, no thanks. Another relative took me to the airport around 10, and I flew back.

I am not sure how many hours I spent on this stupid car. But just the drive down there was a pain in the you-know-what. And not one word of thanks, not even a greeting except from the mother and one young grandchild. No meal, either. And you know what? I was pretty ticked off. Different cultures or not, I can't see how you would expect someone to go out of his way like that for a huge favor, and not thank the person. Not only not thank him, but totally ignore him.

You sum up Thai manners in a nutshell in this post. I have been in a very similar situation ..not even a glass of water offered on arrival.

Another thing that is presumeably down to ''culture'' is the almost total disregard on the skytrains in Bangkok to give up designated seats to the more needy such as the elderly,pregnant women and infants. I have been travelling with my 3 year old daughter on crowded trains this week and nobody has yet stood up to let her sit down bar one falang.

Now as for the road manners.......

[longstebe]

Classic queue jumping at the ATM gets me or lets park the motorbike in the middle of the road and give that look to the poor sod in the car trying to pass.

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[samran]

Not only is this a grumpy old man thread, I wonder how many of these blokes have inadvertently (and that is be generous) offended locals.

Glass houses and all that.

[wamberal]

Not only is this a grumpy old man thread, I wonder how many of these blokes have inadvertently (and that is be generous) offended locals.

Glass houses and all that.

And I wonder how many posters can visualise how they look to the average Thai? Or Chinese, or Japanese, and so on.

Look around you, with a critical eye, at the average Westerner, and compare and contrast - some of us, maybe most of us, are overweight, sloppily dressed, smelly (because we eat a lot of dairy products and meat), and ungainly. Plus we tend to do things in public that most Thais find a bit unpleasant to look at.

Perhaps it is no wonder that we are not accorded our rights.

Incidentally, how many of us are well versed in Thai do's and don'ts, I wonder?

[tominbkk]

I believe it has almost everything to do with relationships. If you are connected by family, friends, work, as the recipient of customer service, or something like that then Thais will generally bend over backwards for you, especially if you are older and are polite and friendly. If they don't know you or have any connection to you or your social network, then basically you do not exist, and courtesy is not required.

I was just home in the US, and strangers are constantly kind to one another (I don't come from a huge town, bigger cities are more brusque but people are still generally polite). Holding doors for people, engaging in small talk at a bar or in an elevator or in a line at the supermarket, these are common in the US, but not here.

Anyway, cultures and their norms and codes for social distance vary greatly. A look at Hofstede's Cultural Dimension Theory might be useful for some here if they are having problems understanding why we humans act and think differently around the globe. I would say if there are traits here in Thailand or elsewhere that keep you from peace of mind or just having a good time, it is probably best to move on to a place that will be more copacetic. You aren't going to be changing cultural norms any time soon!

Edited January 6, 2012 by tominbkk

[Tonto21]

Reminds me of the time when I opened the door briskly at a barbershop need suk soi 5 and smacked a girl in the head sitting on the other side. I said sorry and sat in my chair, she started to whine farang this and that and I got up and walked over to her and said, if your fat ass wasn't sitting in front of the door your small head woudn't have got hit +++ expletives and left.

That’s brilliant mate, I really like that, I would like to have been there, did you say it in Thai?

One thing that gets my goat is when I’m left with no alternative course of action or placed in a situation by the dumb action of others, and I’m left being the one who is deemed as rude; people walking 3 or 4 abreast in confined walkways at a snail’s pace, knowing you would like to pass, but ignoring you……So, eventually you see a gap and go for it…..only to be looked at like you just took a dump in there handbag, even standing to the side to let someone pass is meet with that, ‘you dumb farang look’……………..Or siting to close behind a door!

[Heimdallr]

I have quite opposite experiences most of the time. People at least seem somewhat considerate with common courtesy. It's probably more about what kind of people you're surrounded by.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Heimdallr

[Ijustwannateach]

I think there is such a thing as basic consideration and politeness that has analogous components across many cultures, and when Thais are called on it they lose face- because they KNOW they're in the wrong- for example, when people do occasionally resist queue jumpers, or when people don't know how to behave graciously when others are doing them a favour and they get called on it. I don't think 'Thai culture' excludes those kinds of manners, except for those who are raised very boorishly- because for the most part, I am treated well by Thais.

When I find myself among a group that routinely has issues with these kinds of manners, I just extricate myself from them socially. It's not my job to be their social worker. And problems are certainly more likely to come up (as in any culture) with people who don't know you. It takes a bit higher way of thinking to understand that politeness is ultimately self-serving, even with strangers, because what goes around comes around (think they call it karma here!).

[StreetCowboy]

I believe it has almost everything to do with relationships. If you are connected by family, friends, work, as the recipient of customer service, or something like that then Thais will generally bend over backwards for you, especially if you are older and are polite and friendly. If they don't know you or have any connection to you or your social network, then basically you do not exist, and courtesy is not required.

I was just home in the US, and strangers are constantly kind to one another (I don't come from a huge town, bigger cities are more brusque but people are still generally polite). Holding doors for people, engaging in small talk at a bar or in an elevator or in a line at the supermarket, these are common in the US, but not here.

Anyway, cultures and their norms and codes for social distance vary greatly. A look at Hofstede's Cultural Dimension Theory might be useful for some here if they are having problems understanding why we humans act and think differently around the globe. I would say if there are traits here in Thailand or elsewhere that keep you from peace of mind or just having a good time, it is probably best to move on to a place that will be more copacetic. You aren't going to be changing cultural norms any time soon!

I was thinking about this today; I view my manners and the way I behave towards others as being about me; whether I am a well-mannered person. Perhaps Thais think it is about their relationship with that person, and therefore if they have no relationship with that person, they are under no obligation to be considerate or honest.

SC

[pattayadingo]

Education.

In my day we were taught manners. Open the door for females, old people. Give up your seat for the same. Say please and thank you. Say excuse me in a variety of situations.

Many of the yobbish culture in 'Farang Land' have no manners because their parents do not teach them.

I feel it is the same here. Many are not taught manners.

[tominbkk]

I was thinking about this today; I view my manners and the way I behave towards others as being about me; whether I am a well-mannered person. Perhaps Thais think it is about their relationship with that person, and therefore if they have no relationship with that person, they are under no obligation to be considerate or honest.

SC

Bingo! That's how I see it.

[MiG16]

I realize that we all view politeness and manners through the prism of our culture. But sometimes, the "Thai way" has me boggled. A case in point has recently gotten my goat.

A friend of mine's mother has to go from Naratiwat to Hat Yai weekly for medical treatment and what with the danger of being out on the road after dark, the kids decided to pitch in and buy a used car so someone could drive her. The problem is that car prices are even more exorbitant down there than up here in Bangkok, so they decided to buy one here. The next problem is that no one in the family is a good driver, or with an earned license (vice paid-for license), and they were afraid to drive it down south. Enter me. I was asked to help. And after a 6 hour day buying the car, another day getting it registered, and three days back and forth getting it repaired, I left New year's Eve at 3:00 AM for the trip. Due to torrential rains and car problems, I pulled into the small village at about 7:00 PM.

The mother did greet me, and one of the grandkids came up and gave me a sawadi kha, but the kids ignored me as they finished their dinner. A neighbor, full of New Year's cheer (homemade whiskey) called me over to offer me snort, but the family ignored me. No food, no greeting. The son came over shortly and asked for the keys, which i gave. This was the only time he addressed me. I gave him the keys, then he turned and walked off.

I am basically in house arrest until daybreak (the soldiers would not let anyone in nor out of the village), sitting in a small concrete home, with not enough light to even read. As I was tired from driving all day, I fell asleep early. In the morning, once again, no greeting, no thanks. Another relative took me to the airport around 10, and I flew back.

I am not sure how many hours I spent on this stupid car. But just the drive down there was a pain in the you-know-what. And not one word of thanks, not even a greeting except from the mother and one young grandchild. No meal, either. And you know what? I was pretty ticked off. Different cultures or not, I can't see how you would expect someone to go out of his way like that for a huge favor, and not thank the person. Not only not thank him, but totally ignore him.

You sum up Thai manners in a nutshell in this post. I have been in a very similar situation ..not even a glass of water offered on arrival.

I completely agree that what Bonobo experienced is completely ill mannered and inconsiderate. I cant explain why they acted that way, and am not about to try and defend them

but brizzle - I have to disagree that this is typical of Thai manners and hospitality.

where I come from and in the circle of people I know, anyone that comes to your house - be it a repairman, or friends - is offered at the very least a glass of water. if they are there closer to an hour or longer, then likely to be offered either some snack or food

and this has nothing to do with whether one is poor or otherwise. a glass of water doesnt cost anything

[bonobo]

I made my cathartic post yesterday about driving the car down to Naratiwat, and as usual when you can let it out like that, felt somewhat better afterwards. Then, I got home late last night and got a call. Seems the brother drove the car into the house. I don't know if alcohol was involved, but his wife wanted to know if the insurance would cover the damage.

I never posted in the recent karma thread, but ....

[Thaddeus]

I realize that we all view politeness and manners through the prism of our culture. But sometimes, the "Thai way" has me boggled. A case in point has recently gotten my goat.

A friend of mine's mother has to go from Naratiwat to Hat Yai weekly for medical treatment and what with the danger of being out on the road after dark, the kids decided to pitch in and buy a used car so someone could drive her. The problem is that car prices are even more exorbitant down there than up here in Bangkok, so they decided to buy one here. The next problem is that no one in the family is a good driver, or with an earned license (vice paid-for license), and they were afraid to drive it down south. Enter me. I was asked to help. And after a 6 hour day buying the car, another day getting it registered, and three days back and forth getting it repaired, I left New year's Eve at 3:00 AM for the trip. Due to torrential rains and car problems, I pulled into the small village at about 7:00 PM.

The mother did greet me, and one of the grandkids came up and gave me a sawadi kha, but the kids ignored me as they finished their dinner. A neighbor, full of New Year's cheer (homemade whiskey) called me over to offer me snort, but the family ignored me. No food, no greeting. The son came over shortly and asked for the keys, which i gave. This was the only time he addressed me. I gave him the keys, then he turned and walked off.

I am basically in house arrest until daybreak (the soldiers would not let anyone in nor out of the village), sitting in a small concrete home, with not enough light to even read. As I was tired from driving all day, I fell asleep early. In the morning, once again, no greeting, no thanks. Another relative took me to the airport around 10, and I flew back.

I am not sure how many hours I spent on this stupid car. But just the drive down there was a pain in the you-know-what. And not one word of thanks, not even a greeting except from the mother and one young grandchild. No meal, either. And you know what? I was pretty ticked off. Different cultures or not, I can't see how you would expect someone to go out of his way like that for a huge favor, and not thank the person. Not only not thank him, but totally ignore him.

You sum up Thai manners in a nutshell in this post. I have been in a very similar situation ..not even a glass of water offered on arrival.

I completely agree that what Bonobo experienced is completely ill mannered and inconsiderate. I cant explain why they acted that way, and am not about to try and defend them

but brizzle - I have to disagree that this is typical of Thai manners and hospitality.

where I come from and in the circle of people I know, anyone that comes to your house - be it a repairman, or friends - is offered at the very least a glass of water. if they are there closer to an hour or longer, then likely to be offered either some snack or food

and this has nothing to do with whether one is poor or otherwise. a glass of water doesnt cost anything

Agree with Miggy completely, I can't think of a single time I have visited a Thai home where glasses of water weren't produced almost instantly and frequently with snacks. In fact many of the dwellings where I live have pots of water with a ladle roadside for anyone to help themselves.

If I am not mistaken, many years ago, before some bloke in a suit or uniform decided that Sawadee khrap/ka was going to be the standard greeting, Kin cow rien was used quite often (have you eaten yet)

[MiG16]

Agree with Miggy completely, I can't think of a single time I have visited a Thai home where glasses of water weren't produced almost instantly and frequently with snacks. In fact many of the dwellings where I live have pots of water with a ladle roadside for anyone to help themselves.

If I am not mistaken, many years ago, before some bloke in a suit or uniform decided that Sawadee khrap/ka was going to be the standard greeting, Kin cow rien was used quite often (have you eaten yet)

'pai nai ma' 'kin khao rue yang'

where are you coming from. have you eaten. - many homes you visit people still ask these questions

and yes, the pot of drinking water for anyone to help themselves were a common thing. still see that in small villages, but unlikely in the cities these days.

[maiphedmaiaroi]

Thais definatly havent been taught about opening or holding doors for people.

Its a rare occurence over here.

These days i open the door myself and let it slam or close behind me.

No big deal unless its old lady.

[StreetCowboy]

Thais definatly havent been taught about opening or holding doors for people.

Its a rare occurence over here.

These days i open the door myself and let it slam or close behind me.

No big deal unless its old lady.

I don't really see any need to sacrifice what little good manners I have because of the shortcomings of others. If I can pick up some new and different good habits while living here, all well and good, but I don't think I want to abandon any of my 'farang' good habits, whether they seem out of place or not, and whether they are shared by my native neighbours or not.

SC

[DocN]

Thais definatly havent been taught about opening or holding doors for people.

Its a rare occurence over here.

These days i open the door myself and let it slam or close behind me.

No big deal unless its old lady.

I don't really see any need to sacrifice what little good manners I have because of the shortcomings of others. If I can pick up some new and different good habits while living here, all well and good, but I don't think I want to abandon any of my 'farang' good habits, whether they seem out of place or not, and whether they are shared by my native neighbours or not.

SC

Spot on

[maiphedmaiaroi]

Thais definatly havent been taught about opening or holding doors for people.

Its a rare occurence over here.

These days i open the door myself and let it slam or close behind me.

No big deal unless its old lady.

I don't really see any need to sacrifice what little good manners I have because of the shortcomings of others. If I can pick up some new and different good habits while living here, all well and good, but I don't think I want to abandon any of my 'farang' good habits, whether they seem out of place or not, and whether they are shared by my native neighbours or not.

SC

I dont see it as abandoning. Just adapting.

Just like i have adapted to smile at random people in public.

Do that in the west and youd be labelled insane.

[sbk]

Agree with Miggy completely, I can't think of a single time I have visited a Thai home where glasses of water weren't produced almost instantly and frequently with snacks. In fact many of the dwellings where I live have pots of water with a ladle roadside for anyone to help themselves.

If I am not mistaken, many years ago, before some bloke in a suit or uniform decided that Sawadee khrap/ka was going to be the standard greeting, Kin cow rien was used quite often (have you eaten yet)

'pai nai ma' 'kin khao rue yang'

where are you coming from. have you eaten. - many homes you visit people still ask these questions

and yes, the pot of drinking water for anyone to help themselves were a common thing. still see that in small villages, but unlikely in the cities these days.

Yes in all my years of living here I have never heard of this kind of extraordinarily rude behavior. Usually its quite the reverse. and to not offer a meal? Astonishing. Usually its hard to get them to NOT feed you!

I have no defense for these people except to say, they certainly are not the norm.

[maiphedmaiaroi]

Agree with Miggy completely, I can't think of a single time I have visited a Thai home where glasses of water weren't produced almost instantly and frequently with snacks. In fact many of the dwellings where I live have pots of water with a ladle roadside for anyone to help themselves.

If I am not mistaken, many years ago, before some bloke in a suit or uniform decided that Sawadee khrap/ka was going to be the standard greeting, Kin cow rien was used quite often (have you eaten yet)

'pai nai ma' 'kin khao rue yang'

where are you coming from. have you eaten. - many homes you visit people still ask these questions

and yes, the pot of drinking water for anyone to help themselves were a common thing. still see that in small villages, but unlikely in the cities these days.

Yes in all my years of living here I have never heard of this kind of extraordinarily rude behavior. Usually its quite the reverse. and to not offer a meal? Astonishing. Usually its hard to get them to NOT feed you!

I have no defense for these people except to say, they certainly are not the norm.

Obviously you dont live in bangkok.

[Jangot]

I have spent most of the last 30 years living and working in SE Asia, so I am quite used to the "ways"

Except, over the last few years I have spent quite a few months working in China. Now there is a challenge.

The worst thing for me is the eating habits, I can't say table manners, but of course they are normal manners for the Chinese.

Even in big international hotels, I dread the meal times. All my mother's words come back to haunt me:

Close your mouth when you eat

Don't talk with your mouth full

Take the food to your mouth, not your mouth to the food.

Don't make noise when you eat.

Then there are things she never had to tell me:

Don't hawk your larynx and sinuses at the meal table

Don't put one finger to the side of your nose and blow it onto the carpet beside your chair

Don't use your eating utensils into the communal dishes

Don't smoke at a table that has a big clear "No smoking" sign on it.

Don't spit your unwanted food bits and bones onto the table cloth

I keep expecting her to appear and give them a clout behind the head.

But then, here is the thing...

I was discussing this with a friend, who's son married a Japanese girl.

At the wedding ceremony in Japan, my friend's son dug him in the ribs and urgently whispered in his ear

"Make some slurping noises when you eat, dad, or they will think you are not enjoying the food"

Maybe 'manners maketh the man' - but who's manners and what man and where?

[F1fanatic]

Somebody told me shortly after I arrived here, that the locals are v inconsiderate BUT, v tolerant.

I have found this to be true.

They do though (in my experience), always offer at least a glass of water !

[bonobo]

Since the whole water thing seemed to surface after my post, I guess, in all fairness, I should point out that after I returned from the next-door neighbor an hour or so later, one of the sisters did give me a bottle of coke. No food, though.

[Geekfreaklover]

Interesting thread.

I had one strange (for me at least) experience the other day. Alighting the 46 bus at rush hour. There were a crowd of people waiting to get on the packed bus. As the doors opened the guy at the front of the crowd (Bangkok has bus crowds/rugby scrums rather than queues) said 'quickly, quickly,' to me in English. I was a bit surprised, but slipped through the crowd and onto the sidewalk. I'm no slowcoach getting off any mode of transport having commuted all my life, but I have never heard a Thai tell another Thai 'reo, reo,' when they are waiting to get on a mode of transport. Why did he say that? To exercise his English? To show-off to the other Thais? It was slightly rude and a bit baffling.

The other thing I sometimes find is standing up on public transport and despite there being a few good spaces around someone will always try and stand where I'm standing and slowly nudge me out of the way. Baffling.

Women stopping to have a chat on a skinny stretch of pavement oblivious to all the people trying to get past behind her. Same woman stopping to chat on her mobile phone at the bottom of an escalater. Happens all the time.

I think its down to a mix of rapid urbanization and lack of awareness to others outside their social spectrum. There may be a bit of racisim thrown in, but thats another story.

[MiG16]

Since the whole water thing seemed to surface after my post, I guess, in all fairness, I should point out that after I returned from the next-door neighbor an hour or so later, one of the sisters did give me a bottle of coke. No food, though.

well if you were at my place I wouldnt offer food either

cos I cant

but will certainly offer you some chocolates

jokes and personal practice aside, it would be rude to not offer some sort of hospitality. a glass of water is the minimum.

especially in Bonobo's case - when someone has driven hours to do something for you. the talking part - there may be other explanation - shy, insecure to talk to a foreigner

but a smile crosses any language barrier. a smile accompanied with some water..some sort of hot drink like milo or similar would be the next closest thing to food if the hour was too unusual to offer someone a proper meal.

if the house is living in extreme poverty, even then they would offer some sort of hospitality that is within their means (which from the fact of purchasing a car I would imagine they cant be THAT poor)

sounds like poor manners - but I have to argue against this being typical or the norm in thai society.