Honda Crf 250L

[Bung]

Where did you get these figures from? I have never seen performance figures for a stock KLX that has had the factory restriction bypassed. Can you provide a link to it? I really want to know.

Once again, the KLX will also lose weight when ditching it's also heavy standard muffler. They are both heavy, as always.

I think longer mirrors may set you back all of B300. I know a guy took his CRF to the kawasaki shop and put a KLX shift lever on it as it has a spring loaded tip.....B280.....

CRF's 1 radiator, non adjustable suspension, crappy flat air filter, thinner spokes......

No definate winner here yet. Early days.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Bung

[wantan]

It is unfair to compare the CRF with what the KLX does until it has the restriction lifted. It is as easy as sticking a paper clip in at at the dealer before you ride away.

Don't think so. Its absolutely normal to compare products the way they are sold. If you have to modify a product before it can be used properly than this is a big minus. And if you lose warranty and make your bike illigal than this is a much bigger minus.

Off course you can make a comparison on modified bikes. But where to stop then? Big bore kits, muffler, carb, tires... Why not make it easy and buy a real dirt bike than instead having an illegal dual sport.

[Bung]

I am only looking at making it fair, the klx has a factory restriction which stops it revving out in the upper 3 gears hence the lack of top speed. If you think shorting out some wires to make it run as it should is a big minus then you must be easily put off. You won't lose your warranty as they don't check to make sure it is still restricted, who would give a shit?

Why wouldn't you be interested in seeing them go head to head with the engines free to run out to the red line in all gears? I am very interested in seeing them run together as they should, not with one with a rev restriction in the top 3 gears, thats ridiculous.

It is interesting why kawasaki did this to the KLX. I have no idea but they did it for whatever reason. They must have had a reason or they would not have bothered. Who knows? It takes a monkey 1 minute to bypass and just as long to change back. If the Honda had it I would be just as keen to see it bypassed on that as well.

Illegal?

I am just as interested in not seeing a comparison with a KLX with a different gear ratio, knobby tyres, open exhaust and intake etc. Just standard and fair thats all. I don't understand why you wouldn't be interested in doing it this way.

If no one wants to compare them like they should then fine, I will do it myself in a couple of weeks.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Bung

[dave_boo]

I am bit conflicted about comparing a derestricted KLX versus a stock CRF. On the one hand, one really should compare as they come from the factory. On the other hand, simply shoving a wire in, as long as it is not logged by the ECU is really no different tham banging out exhaust restrictions.

Oh, and a CRF has 115% of the power that a derestricted KLX has (23 vs. 20). It has 135% of a bone stock KLX (23 vs 17).

Would also like to apologisr as Red Baron apparently only ever had two bikes that were in Kawi's then currrnt lineup, for whatever reason. They were 8% more expensive for full power (information gathere from threads on this forum).

[taninthai]

I am only looking at making it fair, the klx has a factory restriction which stops it revving out in the upper 3 gears hence the lack of top speed. If you think shorting out some wires to make it run as it should is a big minus then you must be easily put off. You won't lose your warranty as they don't check to make sure it is still restricted, who would give a shit?

Why wouldn't you be interested in seeing them go head to head with the engines free to run out to the red line in all gears? I am very interested in seeing them run together as they should, not with one with a rev restriction in the top 3 gears, thats ridiculous.

It is interesting why kawasaki did this to the KLX. I have no idea but they did it for whatever reason. They must have had a reason or they would not have bothered. It was the first "big bike" (if memory serves) so maybe done to placate a nervous government department so they could unleash these monsters on the market? Maybe Kawasaki themselves were nervous? Who knows? It takes a monkey 1 minute to bypass and just as long to change back.

Illegal?

I am just as interested in not seeing a comparison with a KLX with a different gear ratio, knobby tyres, open exhaust and intake etc. Just standard and fair thats all. I don't understand why you wouldn't be interested in doing it this way.

If no one wants to compare them like they should then fine, I will do it myself in a couple of weeks.

Bung I quoted the gps readings on another forum maxes out In 5th 130 displayed is maximum gps reading 119 into 6th gear tucked in chin on bars got it to 135 yesterday gps  Reading 125,had 140 indicated couple of days ago probably 130 gps

It's completely fair to compare how they come from the dealet

It's completely fair to co

[wantan]

Why wouldn't you be interested in seeing them go head to head with the engines free to run out to the red line in all gears? I am very interested in seeing them run together as they should, not with one with a rev restriction in the top 3 gears, thats ridiculous.

I am interested in many things. But the most basic comparison is to compare the bikes without modification. After that you guys can compare whatever you like

[JonnyF]

Where did you get these figures from? I have never seen performance figures for a stock KLX that has had the factory restriction bypassed. Can you provide a link to it? I really want to know.

Once again, the KLX will also lose weight when ditching it's also heavy standard muffler. They are both heavy, as always.

I think longer mirrors may set you back all of B300. I know a guy took his CRF to the kawasaki shop and put a KLX shift lever on it as it has a spring loaded tip.....B280.....

CRF's 1 radiator, non adjustable suspension, crappy flat air filter, thinner spokes......

No definate winner here yet. Early days.

Just ignore sTROLLING, he's only here to spam and i'm amazed he's got away with it for so long but maybe changing his name from hehehoho (banned for spamming?) helped prolong his career on TV?

I'd agree that there's still no clear winner. I'm leaning towards the crf, it sounds like it has a bit more power and rides well from the reviews so far, but the non adjustable suspension and the extra weight put me off a bit although i prefer the looks to the Kawi, especially the white one which would look awesome with black rims imo. I'm really interested to hear the RRP, i was pretty shocked when i heard they were being sold for 140k when a non abs CBR 250 goes for about 105k. I think AP Honda's price gouging might be raising it's ugly head again.

I guess SumetCycle would know the RRP, any chance of sharing it with the forum members? It would be really helpful helping some us to decide whether to wait a few months before buying.

[taninthai]

Just something to throw in over on motorcycle in thailnad there is a picture off a black box that you plug into bike to derestrict talking crf here only thing is no one knows if it is a genuine or a fake , it's also bit hard to tell if crf has Any restriction in the rev range as it has no rev counter,bike comes out in japan tommorow and then Europe in may so alot more info and aftermarket parts to come

It's pretty obvious the crf is restricted somewhere as it's the same engine as the cbr and I believe speeds of over 150 are seen on them

Edited May 13, 2012 by taninthai

[Bung]

I am only looking at making it fair, the klx has a factory restriction which stops it revving out in the upper 3 gears hence the lack of top speed. If you think shorting out some wires to make it run as it should is a big minus then you must be easily put off. You won't lose your warranty as they don't check to make sure it is still restricted, who would give a shit?

Why wouldn't you be interested in seeing them go head to head with the engines free to run out to the red line in all gears? I am very interested in seeing them run together as they should, not with one with a rev restriction in the top 3 gears, thats ridiculous.

It is interesting why kawasaki did this to the KLX. I have no idea but they did it for whatever reason. They must have had a reason or they would not have bothered. It was the first "big bike" (if memory serves) so maybe done to placate a nervous government department so they could unleash these monsters on the market? Maybe Kawasaki themselves were nervous? Who knows? It takes a monkey 1 minute to bypass and just as long to change back.

Illegal?

I am just as interested in not seeing a comparison with a KLX with a different gear ratio, knobby tyres, open exhaust and intake etc. Just standard and fair thats all. I don't understand why you wouldn't be interested in doing it this way.

If no one wants to compare them like they should then fine, I will do it myself in a couple of weeks.

Bung I quoted the gps readings on another forum maxes out In 5th 130 displayed is maximum gps reading 119 into 6th gear tucked in chin on bars got it to 135 yesterday gps Reading 125,had 140 indicated couple of days ago probably 130 gps

It's completely fair to compare how they come from the dealet

It's completely fair to co

I was talking of the KLX. It has a restriction in it that won't allow it to rev to the limit in the top 3 gears....You may think it is fair to compare them as they come from the dealer but I am only interested in having them both being able to run out to their red line in all gears. I would be saying the same of the CRF if it had it.

This is getting old......

[wana]

Where did you get these figures from? I have never seen performance figures for a stock KLX that has had the factory restriction bypassed. Can you provide a link to it? I really want to know.

Once again, the KLX will also lose weight when ditching it's also heavy standard muffler. They are both heavy, as always.

I think longer mirrors may set you back all of B300. I know a guy took his CRF to the kawasaki shop and put a KLX shift lever on it as it has a spring loaded tip.....B280.....

CRF's 1 radiator, non adjustable suspension, crappy flat air filter, thinner spokes......

No definate winner here yet. Early days.

I guess SumetCycle would know the RRP, any chance of sharing it with the forum members? It would be really helpful helping some us to decide whether to wait a few months before buying.

i doubt theyre going to shoot themselves in the foot and do that when these are seling like hot cakes for 145k around bkk now

[dave_boo]

If that 150 CBR speed is indicated, it makes sense. The CRF is geared 5% lower than the CBR (40 rear vs 38). So 0,95x150=142,5.

Even if that 150 is GPS, look how much more wind resistance th CRF has due to lack of fairing.

[Bung]

Where did you get these figures from? I have never seen performance figures for a stock KLX that has had the factory restriction bypassed. Can you provide a link to it? I really want to know.

Once again, the KLX will also lose weight when ditching it's also heavy standard muffler. They are both heavy, as always.

I think longer mirrors may set you back all of B300. I know a guy took his CRF to the kawasaki shop and put a KLX shift lever on it as it has a spring loaded tip.....B280.....

CRF's 1 radiator, non adjustable suspension, crappy flat air filter, thinner spokes......

No definate winner here yet. Early days.

Just ignore sTROLLING, he's only here to spam and i'm amazed he's got away with it for so long but maybe changing his name from hehehoho (banned for spamming?) helped prolong his career on TV?

I'd agree that there's still no clear winner. I'm leaning towards the crf, it sounds like it has a bit more power and rides well from the reviews so far, but the non adjustable suspension and the extra weight put me off a bit although i prefer the looks to the Kawi, especially the white one which would look awesome with black rims imo. I'm really interested to hear the RRP, i was pretty shocked when i heard they were being sold for 140k when a non abs CBR 250 goes for about 105k. I think AP Honda's price gouging might be raising it's ugly head again.

I guess SumetCycle would know the RRP, any chance of sharing it with the forum members? It would be really helpful helping some us to decide whether to wait a few months before buying.

I agree. It looks like the CRF has more power. Some figures have been quoted but no one can back them up with proof. Lets say the CRF has 23hp and the KLX has 20 then. So it should. The KLX engine has been around for 6 odd years and was never originally designed for FI unlike the CRF. It also has an offset piston and roller rockers of some sort. That may explain my friend saying it felt smoother and that will help on those long hwy runs.

But it is 5kg heavier. It may carry that well according to guys testing it but the fact remains. Any weight loss can be mimicked by the KLX. I don't care for percentages. I will wait for a seat of the pants comparison. Luckily my friend has a KLX from new and just picked up his CRF yesterday. His opinion will be better than most.

As far as cooling capacity goes, It will be fine on the street and for the most part offroad. But I would love for someone to have a look at the CRF's and compare it to the KLX If it is bigger it may be ok but if it is half as big I would like to see how it goes stuck in mud on a hot day spinning it's wheel for 5 or 10 minutes. That would be a good test and quite an easy scenario to be in in Thailand.

Then there is the suspension. No doubt it is cheaper on the CRF. I would probably change it regardless for a better shock as I doubt it will handle touring or heavy off road work very well. I am not sure the KLX will either but at least when you throw some luggage on it you can simply turn up the compression a bit (and I don't mean the pre load) Honestly, I think all this suspension is lost on most people and they would probably never even bother setting the sag up cotrrectly but it is very important to me.

Then there is the air filter, again, most people don't give a monkeys but I like how you can fit a proper off road style foam filter to the KLX.

So the CRF probably goes a little bit faster.

It's cheaper but I will spend that money I saved on a decent rear shock. I have no idea if the KLX shock is good enough for what I want it for. (would love to know....)

It's a bit heavier but I think a lot of that is in the engine and it wears it down low.

There is a good chance I will have to spend a bit of money on the forks as well taking it over the price of the KLX.

Currently there is no after market suspension for it nor is there any decent air filter for it and the only type you can use will be a flat K&N style, not a proper off road foam one.

It may over heat when in difficult conditions and there isn't a lot you can do to change that, maybe fit KLX ones

There is the rumours of performance parts for the CRF, I am sure the normal stuff you do to these sorts of bikes will be available soon.

The CRF has no tach but really, you don't need one on a bike like this.

I'm happy I have a deposit on mine. But I am not giving upmon the KLX just yet. It will be interesting what the English media reviews come up with in their comparisons.

[JonnyF]

Where did you get these figures from? I have never seen performance figures for a stock KLX that has had the factory restriction bypassed. Can you provide a link to it? I really want to know.

Once again, the KLX will also lose weight when ditching it's also heavy standard muffler. They are both heavy, as always.

I think longer mirrors may set you back all of B300. I know a guy took his CRF to the kawasaki shop and put a KLX shift lever on it as it has a spring loaded tip.....B280.....

CRF's 1 radiator, non adjustable suspension, crappy flat air filter, thinner spokes......

No definate winner here yet. Early days.

I guess SumetCycle would know the RRP, any chance of sharing it with the forum members? It would be really helpful helping some us to decide whether to wait a few months before buying.

i doubt theyre going to shoot themselves in the foot and do that when these are seling like hot cakes for 145k around bkk now

Now there's a shocker

[strollling]

The CBR250R hits 150kph gps.

Once broken in and loosened up.... And the throttle is pinned for a while.

[taninthai]

There seems very little info comIng here from klx owners I would like to know what make is the the suspension on the klx I know the crf is showa which I think is s pretty respected name in off roading anyone like to comment

Bung I've been in the situation of back wheel spinning up I tried to go up a small wet hard clay like hill wheel just kept spinning and sliding to the left I rolled back down a couple of feet and had to drop the bike the rear wheel was then stuck in a little rut with tree roots was revving the ass of it to get it out ,verdict yes the radiator got a little hot sometimes you can feel the heat of it but the fan kicks in and I didn't see any over heating light come on.

I think how I got into this situation was because it was 1 of my first rides and I forgot about letting air out the tyres for off roading ....

[nikster]

It all comes down to the question: Green, or Red?

Honestly the differences between KLX and CRF are so minor everyone's going to have a different winner depending on preference. I don't mind the ground clearance - I think this might be an advantage in most situations; The only thing I hated about the KLX was the fuel economy, the CRF fixes that. Biggest plus in my book. And I like new things... the CRF is new... new engine design has more potential, of course I might be wrong about that. Weight is a bummer, not happy about that but hoping that a lot of it is in the CAT. Riding the KLX is Laos was great fun though and I loved the feel of the bike. Just bring spare gear shifters.

Somebody asked why Kawasaki would restrict their 250s in such a weird way - to pass emissions of course. They don't mind that almost all KLXs will be derestricted. The Honda's new engine is apparently cleaner to begin with.

Best price reported so far is 130k. Ramp up seems quite a bit faster than the CBR back then so hopefully prices will come down quicker, too.

[RidersCorner]

All well and good until you have a warranty claim on an expensive, parallel imported, new bike, or just want to get it serviced. Remember all these new bikes are extremely complicated and need authorized service centers proprietary computer software these days.

Try get Ducati Thailand to service or do warranty work on a grey imported Ducati.

"Freedom to offer great prices"? Really?

Not sure what cave you live in, but here in the real world when they released the new CB'r' 250 we witnessed many greedy Honda dealers in Thailand completely ignore the AP Honda MSRP and charge huge markups on the new 250cc thumper.

The MSRP was perhaps a "great price", but how many dealers ever sold the bike at the AP Honda MSRP?

So far we see with the CRF250L the same pattern of price gouging that occurred with the CB'r' 250. Some greedy Honda dealers are trying to charge as much as 150k baht for the new CRF250L. (Compared to the fixed price of 152500 Baht for the Kawasaki KLX250).

With these cheap new 250's Honda can certainly beat the competition on price, but with some of their dealers taking the piss on pricing it really doesn't do much for the brand image. It's probably smart that AP Honda chose not to announce an MSRP for the new CRF250L. This way the Honda customers don't know how badly they're getting gouged by their dealer...

I find it awful similar to how Red Baron can import new bikes from abroad, pay all the duties and taxes, and still undercut Kawasaki...at least with APe Honda's setup you have the option to shop around. Kawasaki's prices that exceed an importers are set in stone and purchasers either get raped with a restricted model or go the RB route and get less of a warranty for a 'real' Kawasaki.

I'm not defending either practise; however I would rather let market forces decide (which they have demonstrated in the CBR's instance) as the less distasteful options.

What Kawasaki motorcycle can you buy at Red Baron for less than what Kawasaki, Thailand charges?

Answer: None

Red Baron doesn't import any of the Kawasaki models that are sold by Kawasaki, Thailand.

They sure do undercut AP Honda though!

Red Baron sells the 2012 Honda Goldwing for 1,280,000 Baht

AP Honda price is 1,539,000 Baht!

Red Baron sells the US Spec CBR1000RR for 680k Baht

AP Honda sells the RESTRICTED CBR1000RR for 799k Baht

I guess these are the "great prices" that sTROLLing was talking about?

Way to go Red Baron!

[Bung]

Well, just got off the phone to a mate who had a side by side comparison with the KLX with the restriction removed (with 20,000klm's on it but owned from new). He said it was night and day, the CRF more powerful and smoother across the range. Also handled much better (they had it around the samoeng loop). There was a concesus that changing the shock wasn't something that needed to be done.

Having them side by side, beers in hand a bunch of biker guys they all agreed it had a higher quality finish as well and generally looked nicer.

With the price difference it has right now it is clearly a better bike. I have money to spare to buy some accessories.

My mind is made up, I'm afraid as much as I like the KLX it is showing it's age. What will become of it?

I reckon they should put the engine out of the 250 Ninja in it That seems to be the way forward now.

I should have mine waiting for me by the time I get back in a couple of weeks.

[Baand]

^ Congrats.

The CRF is clearly the better bike, from a better company, which respects it's customers when it comes to price point and quality.

Go Honda!

[Theboy]

^ Congrats.

The CRF is clearly the better bike, from a better company, which respects it's customers when it comes to price point and quality.

Go Honda!

[JonnyF]

^ Congrats.

The CRF is clearly the better bike, from a better company, which respects it's customers when it comes to price point and quality.

Go Honda!

I'm not sure about that hehehoho/sTROLLing, but I'd say the CRF is starting to look like a very good deal.

It's a real shame we can't get the RRP of the bike, I'm going to be viewing one this weekend and I'd really like to know the RRP so I can tell whether I'm being ripped off by the dealer or not. As a Honda employee maybe you could find out and let us know.

I'm starting to think that with an aftermarket pipe, tail tidy and new gear/brake levers this could be an excellent bike.

[William Osborne]

is the KLX electric start ?

Edited May 14, 2012 by William Osborne

[taninthai]

They have just opened a new Kawasaki dealer in krabi today popped in there and ordered the folding gear pedal as some one somewhere mentioned they fit the crf cost me 241 bht.

They had a brand new klx in there so had a good look at it height wise felt no different in height compared to my crf looks wise IMO the crf wins hands down horrible matt black frame on the klx.

They also had the new klx 150 in there looks an alright bike but nothing like the klx 140 klx 150 price 79,500 bht

Also noticed the klx 250 seems to have alot of welds around the swimgarm where the crf seems to be 1 smooth piece of metal with no welding

The forks also on the crf look alot better than the klx still waiting for someone to comment on what make the forks and suspension are on the klx

Edited May 14, 2012 by taninthai

[deemon]

^ Congrats.

The CRF is clearly the better bike, from a better company, which respects it's customers when it comes to price point and quality.

Go Honda!

Yes it is defenetly a much better bike than the old fashion Kawasaki.

[SumetCycle]

All well and good until you have a warranty claim on an expensive, parallel imported, new bike, or just want to get it serviced. Remember all these new bikes are extremely complicated and need authorized service centers proprietary computer software these days.

Try get Ducati Thailand to service or do warranty work on a grey imported Ducati.

"Freedom to offer great prices"? Really?

Not sure what cave you live in, but here in the real world when they released the new CB'r' 250 we witnessed many greedy Honda dealers in Thailand completely ignore the AP Honda MSRP and charge huge markups on the new 250cc thumper.

The MSRP was perhaps a "great price", but how many dealers ever sold the bike at the AP Honda MSRP?

So far we see with the CRF250L the same pattern of price gouging that occurred with the CB'r' 250. Some greedy Honda dealers are trying to charge as much as 150k baht for the new CRF250L. (Compared to the fixed price of 152500 Baht for the Kawasaki KLX250).

With these cheap new 250's Honda can certainly beat the competition on price, but with some of their dealers taking the piss on pricing it really doesn't do much for the brand image. It's probably smart that AP Honda chose not to announce an MSRP for the new CRF250L. This way the Honda customers don't know how badly they're getting gouged by their dealer...

I find it awful similar to how Red Baron can import new bikes from abroad, pay all the duties and taxes, and still undercut Kawasaki...at least with APe Honda's setup you have the option to shop around. Kawasaki's prices that exceed an importers are set in stone and purchasers either get raped with a restricted model or go the RB route and get less of a warranty for a 'real' Kawasaki.

I'm not defending either practise; however I would rather let market forces decide (which they have demonstrated in the CBR's instance) as the less distasteful options.

What Kawasaki motorcycle can you buy at Red Baron for less than what Kawasaki, Thailand charges?

Answer: None

Red Baron doesn't import any of the Kawasaki models that are sold by Kawasaki, Thailand.

They sure do undercut AP Honda though!

Red Baron sells the 2012 Honda Goldwing for 1,280,000 Baht

AP Honda price is 1,539,000 Baht!

Red Baron sells the US Spec CBR1000RR for 680k Baht

AP Honda sells the RESTRICTED CBR1000RR for 799k Baht

I guess these are the "great prices" that sTROLLing was talking about?

Way to go Red Baron!

My staff called Red Baron the other day. Yes, they do offer a great price, but they said the plate would take four months or more to get and would cost extra. Also, who knows if the American spec. CBR 1000 will even pass the Thai emissions test? They only offer a two month warranty too. I don't think I would be confident spending that much money and receiving such a short warranty. There is also the issue of service. I'm sure the mechanics at Red Baron are good, but nowhere as good as the mechanics at Honda's Big Wing.

[BigBikeBKK]

Great to see that initial reviews of the new Honda CRF250L are for the most part positive. Looks like Honda may have a winner!

Competition is always a good thing. The KLX250 has owned the 250 dual sport niche in Thailand for years. Perhaps the CRF250L will prompt some upgrades.

Happy Trails!

[motocrosser]

So what is the RRP then?anyone?

[StGeorge]

So what is the RRP then?anyone?

I dont know about the RRP, but today in Mityon on the Pattaya Tai and 3rd Road junction, the price stands at 135k. It rises to just over 138k to register, and upto 141900 with 2yrs insurance. No finance available at the moment, unlike with the KLX from the Kawazaki dealer on the Sukumvit.

Even someone i know who knows the owner couldnt get the price down and was quoted the same 2hrs later.

The saleswoman in Mityon said the price may vary between provinces, after i asked about the aforementioned 115k RRP. Has anyone had a better deal outside of Pattaya?

[Bung]

They have just opened a new Kawasaki dealer in krabi today popped in there and ordered the folding gear pedal as some one somewhere mentioned they fit the crf cost me 241 bht.

They had a brand new klx in there so had a good look at it height wise felt no different in height compared to my crf looks wise IMO the crf wins hands down horrible matt black frame on the klx.

They also had the new klx 150 in there looks an alright bike but nothing like the klx 140 klx 150 price 79,500 bht

Also noticed the klx 250 seems to have alot of welds around the swimgarm where the crf seems to be 1 smooth piece of metal with no welding

The forks also on the crf look alot better than the klx still waiting for someone to comment on what make the forks and suspension are on the klx

I will go out on a limb and say KYB? Kawa tend to use them as Honda use Showa all the time.

Did you shorten the KLX gear lever? My mate had his shortened the same as the CRF.

[Bung]

So what is the RRP then?anyone?

I dont know about the RRP, but today in Mityon on the Pattaya Tai and 3rd Road junction, the price stands at 135k. It rises to just over 138k to register, and upto 141900 with 2yrs insurance. No finance available at the moment, unlike with the KLX from the Kawazaki dealer on the Sukumvit.

Even someone i know who knows the owner couldnt get the price down and was quoted the same 2hrs later.

The saleswoman in Mityon said the price may vary between provinces, after i asked about the aforementioned 115k RRP. Has anyone had a better deal outside of Pattaya?

I have now way to back this up but my gut feeling is that you will never see these CRF's for cheaper than B135 000. That is their promotion price which is due to end today. If they sold them cheaper then that is a slap in the face to all the people who rushed out and bought them at this special price. It is already B18 000 cheaper than the competition.