Huge Widening Income Gap

[snoophound]

Hotel Managers

They work????

Really?

Jingjing???

They might work to get there,but once there,most I know do diddly squat.

Aside from enjoying endless hospitality,free functions,travel etc etc.

The lowly paid assistant managers and accountants and marketing people work.

Lets say a 5* hotel with 50 rooms was fully booked at 8,000 baht a night for 75 percent of the year thats 50 x 8000 x 255 = 102 million baht anual revenue

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Been to a 5* hotel? Then you know they are 4-500 rooms and up up.

Exception are some boutique offshots where 1 night is in thousands US$.

For a 5* hotel to break even, a friend who is a manager at Hyatt said - 26% occupancy is enough. He is full to the brim all year round.

The Marriott Resort & Spa in BKK with 413 rooms was bursting at the seams in the worst of low, rainy, season in October. Landmark, JW Marriott, all 5* like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[TAWP]

I thought to get a work permit you HAD to earn at least about 60k a month excluding teachers/journalists/volunteers?  So surely most of the expats here would be earning that and most likely considerably more than that? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'No' to both statements.

[WhiteShiva]

Market forces sure,  you keep the poor poor.  You pay them a pittance so they are all too scared to demand more.  I don't know how the 'free-market' model sorts out the massive wage disparity problems.  I thought that is where gov'ts come in to create some sort of balance.  One thing is for sure 'the tickle down effect' is bunk.

I believe the 60k minimum wage has something to do with being american.  If your aus or uk then it's 30k.  Is that right??  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Disclosure:  I work in the out provinces so 240k a month is extra impressive from where I'm standing.  (Have to consider how much the hotel garbage man gets a month too though  )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what kind of market do you think would do the solve the poverty problems - socialism?

[simon43]

Anyway, what is more important is not how much your salary is, but how much your expenses are to pay out of that money! I earn a good salary but I have to pay my ex-wife in the UK some 400,000 baht every month!!

Not a lot left to spend after that (:(:

[Doza]

Hotel Managers

They work????

Really?

Jingjing???

They might work to get there,but once there,most I know do diddly squat.

Aside from enjoying endless hospitality,free functions,travel etc etc.

The lowly paid assistant managers and accountants and marketing people work.

Right, except they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for satisfying the shareholders. Performance goes down, GM is out.

simple example, why should a top thai executive at the pinnacle of thai society be deprived of living in a nice big house with a pool in sukhumvit because he is crowded out by rising costs

He wouldn't be. A top Thai executive of a MNC would be earning the same. If the company is not a MNC or a smaller company and they can't afford to pay top wages, then that's a simple market economy. Nothing to do with nationality.

[OlRedEyes]

You expect the result of this poll to reflect reality?

[think_too_mut]

He wouldn't be. A top Thai executive of a MNC would be earning the same. If the company is not a MNC or a smaller company and they can't afford to pay top wages, then that's a simple market economy. Nothing to do with nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true.

My company pays local wages, depends on the place and the nation if you wish (in terms of location), jacked up but nothing worth going to a 3rd world place for work.

For example, what my engineers in Japan get for 1 week (one week out of 8) to be on call in Japan is a monthly salary for someone in China or Thailand.

400US$ for one week pager, good chance nobody calls. If somebody calls, then overtime is paid.

If the overtime is 70 hours per month, it' my responsibility to take that person to te doctors. Including psycho tests.

[solo siam]

I think she said that this particular lady is like the sales director/manager. Some sort of executive position in the sales department. I guess that lady is in her 50's and has been with that hotel almost all her life, so then I guess it is somewhat justifiable.But doesn't make me any less jealous knowing her offspring generations will have a breeze through life.

I just don't see how a hotel, five star or not can afford to pay such salaries. It must be the stocks/shares and other revenues.

Lets say a 5* hotel with 50 rooms was fully booked at 8,000 baht a night for 75 percent of the year thats 50 x 8000 x 255 = 102 million baht anual revenue

For wages, lets say 100 maids made 6000 baht a month that's 7.2 million baht a year

And say another 100 workers in various departments maid average 10k a month

That's 12 million baht

And say 50 managers averaged 50k a month

thats 30 million

With say 20 more averaging 100k a month,

that's another 24 million

And let's say 10 executive levels were pulling 200k a month

another 24 million

Altogether wages for a year would almost be 100 million baht. What about maintence and utilities? I just don't see how a hotel can afford such wages. Perhaps I'm overestimating the wages and staff numbers. Can someone in the business enlighten me more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you honestly think that a Hotel ONLY makes money from renting out rooms?? Cmon, get real - They probably make as much money from restaurants, spa treatments, room service, minibars, Hotel Bars etc.... Besides you said in the Original quote that it was a Directors BOSS (or Senior) that was pulling in that money, so shes gonna hev to be at least number 1 or 2 in charge.

A Team leader at Mcdonalds in the Uk could easily earn 6 pounds an hour, do 60 hours a week (not that extraordinary) and your earning nearly $3,000 a month before taking into account bonuses, actual overtime money (time and a half or whatever etc..) - So its not quite 5k US$ but its close enough to make my point.

I have no idea how you can live comfortably on 35k baht, your electric, internet, water and rent must take at least 10-15k of that, leaving you with 20k + whatever the wife makes for food, beer, clothes, going out, christmas, trips home, health-care, schooling, travel etc.. I'm not knocking it, I just dont know how you manage it.

[raybkk]

As someone said it's only money and you are doing better than mostof the wolrd.  Go to The Global Rich List for a reality check.

You are also comparing $US to Thai Baht!!  This always makes for confusion.

240,000baht is RELATIVELY a lot of money.  Can you tell me that the person in that position holds (in reality) that much more responsibility, and (in reality) works that much harder?

Come on!  How can you justify that massive wage disparity.  US$ don't count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think she said that this particular lady is like the sales director/manager. Some sort of executive position in the sales department. I guess that lady is in her 50's and has been with that hotel almost all her life, so then I guess it is somewhat justifiable.But doesn't make me any less jealous knowing her offspring generations will have a breeze through life.

I just don't see how a hotel, five star or not can afford to pay such salaries. It must be the stocks/shares and other revenues.

Lets say a 5* hotel with 50 rooms was fully booked at 8,000 baht a night for 75 percent of the year thats 50 x 8000 x 255 = 102 million baht anual revenue

For wages, lets say 100 maids made 6000 baht a month that's 7.2 million baht a year

And say another 100 workers in various departments maid average 10k a month

That's 12 million baht

And say 50 managers averaged 50k a month

thats 30 million

With say 20 more averaging 100k a month,

that's another 24 million

And let's say 10 executive levels were pulling 200k a month

another 24 million

Altogether wages for a year would almost be 100 million baht. What about maintence and utilities? I just don't see how a hotel can afford such wages. Perhaps I'm overestimating the wages and staff numbers. Can someone in the business enlighten me more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I work for a five start Hotel and I can confirm that wages for sales departments are Huge! The Sales directors would't start under Baht 250000.- a month. Now that might seem a lot of money but they are also bringing in a lot of business and revenue! Believe me, they are worth it. And the competition among 4-5 star hotels is huge and directors and sales are always looking to make more money elswhere.

P.s 5 star hotels dont charge Baht 8000.- per night. Try 16500 as an average. Further are most 5 star Hotels always booked at around 85%. Dont forget the function room and weddings! Further is the most profit made from from food and beverage. A steak at a 2-3 star Hotel costs 250 Baht. At a 5 star it goes for 750.- etc. etc. Anyway, dont wanna get into it to deep. Just try to tell you that your calculation is way off.

[billd766]

I used to work for a major MNC in telecommunications when I first came here 12 years ago and I was on salary +15% for being overseas. I was on 1 1/2 overtime after 37 1/2 hours a week and I was regularly working 50 or more hours a week. I was also given per diem to live here.

Sounds a lot but you also have to consider that you have another home and a family to maintain back in your own country, you are also taxed at your home country tax rates. So you go back 3 times a year for a couple of weeks. It used to take me about 20 hours of travelling to get back home door to door and for the first couple of days your body is out of synch with everybody else, and then you do the return journey again in the same amount of time

In that MNC I worked in Thailand, 3 times, Indonesia 3 times, Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, Egypt 2 times, Qatar 2 times, UAE, Kuwait, France, Portugal and a couple of other places I cant remember offhand. That was from 1992 until the middle of 1998 when I quit and went contracting doing the same job.

In the MNC a 60 hour week was common and I once worked 96 hours in one week and worked 4 months without a day off.

In contracting you usually work a 50 hour week or sometimes an 8 hour day 7 days week.

Lots of money but as a contractor you are responsible for all your expenses, hotels, flights, visas, medical insurance etc.

The only real advantage you have is that you can turn jobs down but unfortunately the work is not there so much now as it is being done by Phillipinos, Indians, Indonesians and Thais for much less money than farangs get but much more than they would get in their own country, and they ahve to pay out the same way that we do but usually less on hotels etc.

I finished 7 months in Pakistan at the end of August and so far no offers are coming my way yet.

But I am at home with my family and that counts for a lot.

[greenwanderer108]

I think she said that this particular lady is like the sales director/manager. Some sort of executive position in the sales department. I guess that lady is in her 50's and has been with that hotel almost all her life, so then I guess it is somewhat justifiable.But doesn't make me any less jealous knowing her offspring generations will have a breeze through life.

I just don't see how a hotel, five star or not can afford to pay such salaries. It must be the stocks/shares and other revenues.

Lets say a 5* hotel with 50 rooms was fully booked at 8,000 baht a night for 75 percent of the year thats 50 x 8000 x 255 = 102 million baht anual revenue

For wages, lets say 100 maids made 6000 baht a month that's 7.2 million baht a year

And say another 100 workers in various departments maid average 10k a month

That's 12 million baht

And say 50 managers averaged 50k a month

thats 30 million

With say 20 more averaging 100k a month,

that's another 24 million

And let's say 10 executive levels were pulling 200k a month

another 24 million

Altogether wages for a year would almost be 100 million baht. What about maintence and utilities? I just don't see how a hotel can afford such wages. Perhaps I'm overestimating the wages and staff numbers. Can someone in the business enlighten me more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you honestly think that a Hotel ONLY makes money from renting out rooms?? Cmon, get real - They probably make as much money from restaurants, spa treatments, room service, minibars, Hotel Bars etc.... Besides you said in the Original quote that it was a Directors BOSS (or Senior) that was pulling in that money, so shes gonna hev to be at least number 1 or 2 in charge.

A Team leader at Mcdonalds in the Uk could easily earn 6 pounds an hour, do 60 hours a week (not that extraordinary) and your earning nearly $3,000 a month before taking into account bonuses, actual overtime money (time and a half or whatever etc..) - So its not quite 5k US$ but its close enough to make my point.

I have no idea how you can live comfortably on 35k baht, your electric, internet, water and rent must take at least 10-15k of that, leaving you with 20k + whatever the wife makes for food, beer, clothes, going out, christmas, trips home, health-care, schooling, travel etc.. I'm not knocking it, I just dont know how you manage it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You must be filthy rich if you don't see how it is possible to live off of 35,000 baht a month in Thailand. Actually, I don't make that much after taxes. More like 32 k on average.

I'm drunk half the week. If I didn't drink, I probably could save a lot.

I'm certainly not starving. I don't pay for sex if that's what you are asking? If I was making twice as much now, I probably would be paying for sex though... Fluck the wining and dining.

If you can introduce me to one person who works at macdonalds at 6 pounds an hour and can provide a pay stub in excess of 2000 USD or equivlent, please post or let me know. I think your full of &lt;deleted&gt;...I'll do a feature story about him/her in Nation Junior magazine, cause that's news worthy. If not, point me to a garbage man in any country that can prove he/she made 5000 USD or equivlent in one month salary. (no extra income from recycling counts)

[steveromagnino]

well while it cannot be easy for some foreigners to live on that sort of money who might have problems eating street food, catching buses etc, I think for a local who can get around, 32k is not so bad to live on. Certainly not a massive amount, but if not owning a fancy car or house, then enough to have a nice time on. Probably no lavish overseas trips, but enough to eat out all the time and so on.

Most of Bangkok earn somewhere around this amount and get by ok.

Even my old maid used to only earn 12,000b a month, and she managed to send her daughter overseas to study and owned a quite nice house somewhere in Thonburi; certainly possible but involves not too much drinking and even less womanising

Womanising, not being able to ride the local transport systems and being unable to eat local food are the problems hitting most expats in the wallet IMHO.

Regarding hotels, never understood why but so many of the management are Swiss?!! What is up with dat?

[Jumbo chilli]

I live in Chiangmai an there are quite a few Korean(protestants) missionaries live around my house.

One day I asked one of them about their income( it's none of my business though)

"2,000+$" + "extra education support (50%) for their kids"

&lt;deleted&gt;!

[greenwanderer108]

Anyway, what is more important is not how much your salary is, but how much your expenses are to pay out of that money!  I earn a good salary but I have to pay my ex-wife in the UK some 400,000 baht every month!!

Not a lot left to spend after that (:(:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How the hel_l did you end up paying 5.6k GBP to your ex wife per month??? Well if it's child support, look on the bright side,

your british kids wouldn't likely ever be beggars. Even if he/she/they become heroin addicts, your monthly stipend would keep them happy.

[greenwanderer108]

Saloop Wa (Therefore, In conclusion, etc.)

Given my status as someone with no initial investment capital, If I want to make 'good' money to survive in Thailand

my options are...

A.Become a garbage man in US

B. Work macdonalds in US or GB, with overtime of course

C. Become a Korean Christian missionary

or

D. Sell my bum to one of the 28 Thaivisa members (70% of poll) with overwelming wealth on a regular basis

The choices...maybe being poor (though top 13 percent in world) isn't so bad after all.

[Patex]

...I have no idea how you can live comfortably on 35k baht, your electric, internet, water and rent must take at least 10-15k of that, leaving you with 20k + whatever the wife makes for food, beer, clothes, going out, christmas, trips home, health-care, schooling, travel etc..  I'm not knocking it, I just dont know how you manage it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He still must be very young...

usa= 7eleven

Thailand= Teacher/Journalist, drunk 1/2 the week

I'm lovin' it

[barryofthailand]

I think the sales people in five star hotels most likely are on a base salery plus commision.

Simon 43, you meanm to tell me you pay your x $10,000 U.S. per month? If this is true you have my sympathy.

I know people from the UK who get about 127,000 baht per month retire3ment.

I would gather to say the average retirement from the states is in the range of 75,000 baht per month.

Barry

[Heng]

A decent 5 star hotel in a worlds capital is going to set you back about US$100 million to US$ 200 million, and that includes Bangkok.

My ex's family built the Radisson over on Rama IX. Not a 5 star hotel, but the entire project contract was "only" US$3 million. Building only of course, but lets say the trimmings cost you double that, even then it's a whole different ballpark. You save quite a bit when building in Thailand.

[solo siam]

You must be filthy rich if you don't see how it is possible to live off of 35,000 baht a month in Thailand. Actually, I don't make that much after taxes. More like 32 k on average.

I'm drunk half the week. If I didn't drink, I probably could save a lot.

I'm certainly not starving. I don't pay for sex if that's what you are asking? If I was making twice as much now, I probably would be paying for sex though... Fluck the wining and dining.

If you can introduce me to one person who works at macdonalds at 6 pounds an hour and can provide a pay stub in excess of 2000 USD or equivlent, please post or let me know. I think your full of &lt;deleted&gt;...I'll do a feature story about him/her in Nation Junior magazine, cause that's news worthy. If not, point me to a garbage man in any country that can prove he/she made 5000 USD or equivlent in one month salary. (no extra income from recycling counts)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The MINIMUM wage in the UK is 5.05 pounds, ANYONE working say a 50 hour week earns a MINIMUM of $1966 US$. Are you trying to suggest that no-one in the whole of the UK who works for Mcdonalds has ever done 50 hours a week?????

It is ILLEGAL to employ anyone over 22 for under a minimum of 5.05 pounds per hour in the UK, Anyone over 22 working in ANY job could earn 2,000 US$ by simply working 51 hours a week.

32,000 Baht isnt enough for a farang to live out here, what happens if you get ill, need to go home to visit a dieing relative etc...

I earn about 1/3 of what I did when I was 24 (6 years ago), however I still earn enough to be able to enjoy myself etc...

[bodypaul]

There are 5,957,009,885 people poorer than you.

The global rich list.

That makes me feel better!!

[Baal]

This is not to pry into the personal lives of anyone specifically, I'm just curious what the average salary range actually is for TV members. I assume it's somewhere between 30-50k

Anyway what brought this curiousity up is yesterday I had a conversation with my GF who works clerical/sales at a 5 star hotel in Bangkok. She was telling me the salaries of some of her 'superiors' which really sparked something in me. I'm not usually prone to jealousy but when I heard the salaries of some of these elite in the hotel business, I couldn't help it

The Thai sales manager who's been working for 5 years or so makes 40k/month, which doesn't bother me.

But it's two of the main directors salaries that got to me. One who is Japanese, gets 140k a month!! So she can speak Japanese, Thai, and English. Pay me half that and I'll learn any language you want.

Her Thai superior gets 210k per month!! I'd have to work half a year to match one month. My gf would have to work more than a year. Does anyone else find such facts disturbing?    

Maybe some people will argue that it's their right, and they're worthy of such money. I can't seem to find any justification for such wealth knowing that 1000 other Thais have to be getting paid 5 thousand baht a month so that one or two elite can get that much.  I doubt they work any harder than anyone else and assume it's just the financial gap stratification at play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know how hard it is to run a hotel? The hours they put in on average are 50+ per week. The fires they have to put out on a daily basis lead to a high percentage of Hotel Industry management having alcohol "issues".

Restraint, House Keeping, Reservations, Transportation, Group Sales and Events,

Security, Customer Service, etc etc. It’s a huge headache. They deserve every penny they get and it has nothing to do with JUST being able to speak many languages.

Your "doubt" about them working harder than anyone else are unfounded and simplistic.

[Baal]

Hotel Managers

They work????

Really?

Jingjing???

They might work to get there,but once there,most I know do diddly squat.

Aside from enjoying endless hospitality,free functions,travel etc etc.

The lowly paid  assistant  managers and accountants and marketing people work.

^^^^^^^

Wrong! nuff said.

Edited December 1, 2005 by Baal

[fanta rood]

A thai doctor earned about 35k baht/month in a government hospital 4 years ago at age ~35. You guys make me sick =(

[unforgiven]

5,000 US$ a month isnt a lot for a very senior director at a large 5* Hotel, regardless of race or country. 

Thats about the same as a Garbage man makes in the states, With overtime you could earn that amount working at Mcdonalds as a Team Leader.

Its always easy to look at other peoples jobs and come to the conclusion that they dont do much for their money, without understanding the responsibility, time and dedication that a position at that level requires.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. No garbage man makes 5000 dollars a month in the states! At a full time 40 hour week that averages to 25 dollars an hour for a 200 hour month. Most months won't even reach 200 hours.

2. And no possible way in hel_l, any position except actually being the owner of a franchise, are you going to make 25 dollars an hour at macdonalds. Managers don't even pull in 2000 dollars a month.

Think you should do your math.

BTW. More than 100 thousand baht a month is not peanuts. What the heck are you going to do with that kind of money in Thailand except get richer...Hospitality, 5 star, bla, bla, The only thing I see is a widening gap. These people can save a million baht an under a year...What are they going to buy in Thailand? Property, stocks, ok so they'll get even richer. What about duds like me barely pulling in 30k a month. You know how difficult it is for me to get property, being farang aside. I'd have to be in debt to a bank for 20-30 years just to be an owner of some 26 square meter studio room, where someone making 'peanuts' at a 5 star hotel can buy a house with a year's savings.

Ok, I can't let jealousy take over here...either way, I don't think such elite prestige benefits any society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok your probablly right about Mcdonalds, but your dead wrong about the unionized garbage collerctors in new york with overtime they can even make more 5grad per month

[snoophound]

I siad the ones I know

The hardest part of the job of the ones in Thailand i know ,is dealing with unrealistic and greedy Thai owners.

Pretty cushy in Aus.

Hotel Managers

They work????

Really?

Jingjing???

They might work to get there,but once there,most I know do diddly squat.

Aside from enjoying endless hospitality,free functions,travel etc etc.

The lowly paid  assistant  managers and accountants and marketing people work.

^^^^^^^

Wrong! nuff said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Patex]

A thai doctor earned about 35k baht/month in a government hospital 4 years ago at age ~35. You guys make me sick =(

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you think this is his onliest workingplace???

These peanuts he takes only in addition to the money from his own "clinic" and/or his "parttimework" in a private hospital... you also forgot to mention all the extras he can get.

Patex

[simon43]

Hi Greenwanderer108 and BarryofThailand! Most of that $10,000 is in child support! UK rules state that you need to pay 25% of your salary when you have 3 kids. It's not actually enforceable in Thailand, but I recognise a moral duty to pay for my kids. I agree it's a heck of a lot of money, but my ex-wife does manage to spend it all, albeit not on the kids

Oh, she also got to keep all of the million pound house in 5 acres...I got a small holiday house in Somerset. She got her 30,000 pound car, mine was repossed!!

Right now, I live in a 12,000 baht 'Thai' house in Phuket with my new, (and pregnant) wife. I am able to run my mobile comms business from Thailand (internet job), so I can still earn the money. But my Thai wife has often said that a much cheaper route in the long term is to take out a contract on my ex-wife!! (Now that has got me thinking...)

But I still have a smile on my face every day and I'm VERY happy!!

Simon

[Doza]

A thai doctor earned about 35k baht/month in a government hospital 4 years ago at age ~35. You guys make me sick =(

You're right - it's disgusting!

I'm making a call to everyone who has been educated, trained and skilled in a profession and is paid what the market demands for his/her labour here in Thailand to think about how terrible and morally bankrupt you are. Please take measures to reduce your salary this instant because you really should be living on 35,000THB / month comfortably and be happy about it. There is no excuse for this greed!

What are you thinking???

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(fanta rood @ 2005-12-02 06:25:14)

A thai doctor earned about 35k baht/month in a government hospital 4 years ago at age ~35. You guys make me sick =(

*

And you think this is his onliest workingplace???

These peanuts he takes only in addition to the money from his own "clinic" and/or his "parttimework" in a private hospital... you also forgot to mention all the extras he can get.

Patex

This, of course, isn't his onliest place.

It is the same with most government workers. The measly salary they give us is not usually enough to live on. However there are LOTS of "perks".

The main perk is that they are usually respected by other people and get lots of time away from work. Some manage to turn this elevated status into cash. Just about everyone I know in the government get a salary which is a fraction of their actual income from other work and business.

Ever seen a government worker on 7,000 baht with a new car/ 10,000 baht telephone?

I have a good friend who is a university lecturer, earning 25,000 baht a month. He has a PhD in Economics. He travels around Isaan getting up to 2000 baht an hour for gigs, turning the real income into about 50,000 baht a month + what he makes in rent from a few house and family hotel in Samui would make it into the 6 figures.

If you own your own house and car in Issaan, are married with kids, I'd say that 10,000 baht a month is enough to live on. OK, some people will say that this is no life. If your the type of guy who can't eat somtam and sticky rice, or drink 'lao khao', and need you expat food and serviced apartment, maid, UBC, skiing holidays in San Moritz, you won't understand this.

But there are many different types of expats for example those who are sent here and those who choose to be here.

[Baal]

I siad the ones I know

The hardest part of the job of the  ones in Thailand i know ,is dealing with unrealistic and greedy Thai owners.

Pretty cushy in Aus.

I bet if you followed that fine lady from Japan around for a day you would be tired at the end of the day.

Now if Im wrong let me know, Ill make sure to tell all the Interns that I know from Europe who are studying Hotel Management to head to Thailand.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Baal