Pakistani Taliban leader possibly killed in U.S. drone strike

[koheesti]

This is the first drone strike report I've read here where they didn't use the word "suspected".

[flying]

This is the first drone strike report I've read here where they didn't use the word "suspected".

True but due to previous reports claiming to have killed the same "suspected" terrorist in the past...multiple times on different dates at different locations

They now say "possibly" killed

Edited January 20, 2012 by flying

[GentlemanJim]

This is the first drone strike report I've read here where they didn't use the word "suspected".

It is suspected the drone attack killed a Taliban leader.

It is possible the drone attack killed a Taliban leader.

Same same, move along now.

[Scott]

After a PM and discussion with a poster who felt that the thread was unduly restrictive without being able to discuss Osama Bin Laden, I have reinstated one post (and I believe there is another I cannot find yet). I have also deleted by post regarding this issue (boy, I hate deleting my own posts--a dose of my own medicine doesn't taste so good).

Please try to stay on topic as much as possible and keep the discussion civil.

Thanks.

[GentlemanJim]

After a PM and discussion with a poster who felt that the thread was unduly restrictive without being able to discuss Osama Bin Laden, I have reinstated one post (and I believe there is another I cannot find yet). I have also deleted by post regarding this issue (boy, I hate deleting my own posts--a dose of my own medicine doesn't taste so good).

Please try to stay on topic as much as possible and keep the discussion civil.

Thanks.

Thanks Scott, good decision, this stuff is important and has an effect on us all, it molds global foreign policy and that in turn has an effect on investments and bank balances.

[koheesti]

I was watching parts of that old Harrison Ford movie from 1994, Clear and Present Danger. There's one scene in the Colombian countryside where a couple special forces guys (one being Willem Dafoe) are staking out a villa, waiting for all the bad guys to show up so they can paint the place with a laser to guide in a missile to take them all out. Only at the last minute, they see children appear from the other side of the house kicking a football around. Everyone in the villa and outside were killed.

[GentlemanJim]

I was watching parts of that old Harrison Ford movie from 1994, Clear and Present Danger. There's one scene in the Colombian countryside where a couple special forces guys (one being Willem Dafoe) are staking out a villa, waiting for all the bad guys to show up so they can paint the place with a laser to guide in a missile to take them all out. Only at the last minute, they see children appear from the other side of the house kicking a football around. Everyone in the villa and outside were killed.

It was a movie. They all went back home that night!

[koheesti]

I was watching parts of that old Harrison Ford movie from 1994, Clear and Present Danger. There's one scene in the Colombian countryside where a couple special forces guys (one being Willem Dafoe) are staking out a villa, waiting for all the bad guys to show up so they can paint the place with a laser to guide in a missile to take them all out. Only at the last minute, they see children appear from the other side of the house kicking a football around. Everyone in the villa and outside were killed.

It was a movie. They all went back home that night!

So is it life imitating art or art imitating life?

[flying]

I was watching parts of that old Harrison Ford movie from 1994, Clear and Present Danger. There's one scene in the Colombian countryside where a couple special forces guys (one being Willem Dafoe) are staking out a villa, waiting for all the bad guys to show up so they can paint the place with a laser to guide in a missile to take them all out. Only at the last minute, they see children appear from the other side of the house kicking a football around. Everyone in the villa and outside were killed.

It was a movie. They all went back home that night!

So is it life imitating art or art imitating life?

Little of both I am afraid

Recently that National Geographic hosted show Drone wars made mention of something similar.

It showed that in Pakistan some of the CIA intelligence was questionable.

Basically they recruit kids at times to paint targets.

It involves paying some kid for info. If the kid said for instance...he thought so & so were

involved in this or that...or if questioned if he knew where this guy was...Not sure if he was shown

a pic or what....then

If the kid said yes then the kid is asked to plant a small device...transponder? Outside the house/mud hut

of the *suspect*

In the reenactment they show the kid putting the small device in a pipe or gutter outside the hut.

The transmitter gives a signal to the drone that destroys the building.

Questionable tactics at best....Reasons that come to my mind is the same reasons that half or more of

Gitmo prisoners could be innocent.

These are dirt poor people....If someone is offered money to rat someone out....what is stopping them from picking

some bum or someone they dont like? The large amount of gitmo prisoners were Afghan refugees sold into prison for bounty by Pakistan cops.

Secondly the transmitters point to a target with no concern for how near other huts are to it.

At the end of the day IMO it is just another form of terrorism. But due to situational ethics it is accepted & called collateral damages/war on terror

No follow ups by Congress on CIA operations in Pakistan...as has been shown time & again the CIA will not even admit or deny they have drones in Pakistan...Yet it is obvious to all.

Does not sound like the actions of a Constitutional Republic's at all.

The whole purpose of a Constitution is to protect from such rogue actions or mob rule.

Instead these types of things sound like a rogue division of it......At other times they would be called a Gestapo or some form of secret police acting on their own without oversight

Edited January 22, 2012 by flying

[GentlemanJim]

Little of both I am afraid

Recently that National Geographic hosted show Drone wars made mention of something similar.

It showed that in Pakistan some of the CIA intelligence was questionable.

Basically they recruit kids at times to paint targets.

It involves paying some kid for info. If the kid said for instance...he thought so & so were

involved in this or that...or if questioned if he knew where this guy was...Not sure if he was shown

a pic or what....then

If the kid said yes then the kid is asked to plant a small device...transponder? Outside the house/mud hut

of the *suspect*

In the reenactment they show the kid putting the small device in a pipe or gutter outside the hut.

The transmitter gives a signal to the drone that destroys the building.

Questionable tactics at best....Reasons that come to my mind is the same reasons that half or more of

Gitmo prisoners could be innocent.

These are dirt poor people....If someone is offered money to rat someone out....what is stopping them from picking

some bum or someone they dont like? The large amount of gitmo prisoners were Afghan refugees sold into prison for bounty by Pakistan cops.

Secondly the transmitters point to a target with no concern for how near other huts are to it.

At the end of the day IMO it is just another form of terrorism. But due to situational ethics it is accepted & called collateral damages/war on terror

No follow ups by Congress on CIA operations in Pakistan...as has been shown time & again the CIA will not even admit or deny they have drones in Pakistan...Yet it is obvious to all.

Does not sound like the actions of a Constitutional Republic's at all.

The whole purpose of a Constitution is to protect from such rogue actions or mob rule.

Instead these types of things sound like a rogue division of it......At other times they would be called a Gestapo or some form of secret police acting on their own without oversight

But not the first time this kind of approach to intelligence gathering or selection of the guilty has been used. They had a very similar system in place during the trials of the Salem Witches . Same same, just no drones or transponders.

[Ulysses G.]

Basically they recruit kids at times to paint targets.

It involves paying some kid for info. If the kid said for instance...he thought so & so were

involved in this or that...or if questioned if he knew where this guy was...Not sure if he was shown

a pic or what....then

If the kid said yes then the kid is asked to plant a small device...transponder? Outside the house/mud hut

of the *suspect*

Any link to this? A link known for accurate, unbiased information.

[flying]

Basically they recruit kids at times to paint targets.

It involves paying some kid for info. If the kid said for instance...he thought so & so were

involved in this or that...or if questioned if he knew where this guy was...Not sure if he was shown

a pic or what....then

If the kid said yes then the kid is asked to plant a small device...transponder? Outside the house/mud hut

of the *suspect*

Any link to this? A link known for accurate, unbiased information.

In regards to the drones/target painting

We had been through this topic before remember?

We had links & I think the whole series is available.

Just search....

In regards to the Pakistan police selling prisoners into Gitmo

there is lots of info reports online

should be an easy google.

Just type.....

"pakistan police sell prisoners to guantanamo"

The bigger picture or point I am trying to convey here is this....

Being a Constitutional Republic we were designed with safe guards in mind.

When these safe guards are sidestepped via things like the Patriot Act

or even keeping our Country being kept under a declared State of emergency for over a decade affords

too much room for that which we were designed to protect against

Edited January 23, 2012 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

In regards to the drones/target painting

We had been through this topic before remember?

Sorry, but you are not known for posting such scenarios accurately and without a lot of spin. If you are going to make such accusations you should support them with a link and it is not up to others to search the internet to prove your claims.

I did try to Google it and found nothing, but that does not mean that it is not out there somewhere in outer space. I will believe it when I see it was confirmed by a reliable, accurate source.

[beechguy]

In regards to the drones/target painting

We had been through this topic before remember?

Sorry, but you are not known for posting such scenarios accurately and without a lot of spin. If you are going to make such accusations you should support them with a link and it is not up to others to search the internet to prove your claims.

I did try to Google it and found nothing, but that does not mean that it is not out there somewhere in outer space. I will believe it when I see it was confirmed by a reliable, accurate source.

UG, he may be correct, but so what? The same people we pay to work on the bases or other projects are passing on information to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and they are planting IED's. It's just the way it is, but flying and some of these guys are only happy to look at part of the situation.

[Ulysses G.]

I agree, but it is always nice to know the truth about these things and a link to a reliable source is a first step in that direction.

[Ulysses G.]

The issue at dispute is the claim that children are being paid to paint targets for drones and are targeting innocent civilians instead. This "selling prisoners" thing is a red herring thrown in to the debate that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread at all.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[flying]

The issue at dispute is the claim that children are being paid to paint targets for drones and are targeting innocent civilians instead. This "selling prisoners" thing is a red herring thrown in to the debate that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread at all.

????

I will try to answer your two posts & beechguys in one.......

1st the selling of prisoners or painting targets have similarities as I am pointing out that info is at times paid for & the accuracy of such is what is being questioned. That simple fact aside how else do you suppose drones find targets deep inside Pakistan where we have no forces?

These drones do not just patrol areas & transmit a camera close up of each person it flies over.

As for finding the facts go for it. It is a National Geographic special how hard can that be.

Why is it as you say my place to educate you or as you say prove what I say?

You have a problem with then help yourself.

The topic as I said was long & recent. It was between koheesti & myself & was in this sub forum.

In either case go to National Geographics site & look as I said I do remember the whole series is available.

How much simpler can that be?

Beechguy said....

It's just the way it is, but flying and some of these guys are only happy to look at part of the situation.

That is 180 degrees off....The fact is I am not willing to look past what our government is doing beyond the permissions our constitution grants.

These things should have congressional oversight or how are they different from a Gestapo like setup?

That the CIA can operate all these drones in Pakistan without a tally or even admitting they do is beyond the scope.

That they are allowed do to some fancy footwork in the form of Patriot Act or declaring a National State of emergency for over a decade

to allow the Presidents to allow such is just foolish.

Do not forget it is not just the so called terrorist that have handed over certain rights & freedoms in this blanket case.

If on the other hand the whole point of your post Beechguy is to say the bad guys do it so why can't we......Well then I cannot help you.

I don't go for that situational ethics

But at the end of the day we know how these things go.

No amount of anything will open a crack for light to get into some caves as they prefer to remain dark.

Edited January 23, 2012 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

No evidence of very questionable claims and a lot of spin to try to justify throwing in accusations that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Typical.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[flying]

No evidence of the claims and a lot of spin to explain including accusations that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Typical.

Allright

even though you were told you could freely find the info

National Geographic.....

Then Drone wars...

Here .I went & got it for you..........

See the little yellow box in the lower right of the video?

That is because it was a National Geographic special as I said....

Yet watch it & see it is just as I remembered with a boy putting the transmitter into a pipe outside

the house.

Look at about 4.5 minutes into it...if your too tired to watch all 15 minutes

by the way I recommend the whole series as it is very good....I am sure you will not watch but others may be interested.

It is a 3 part series about 15 minutes each

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KrmJI-1xyE

Edited January 23, 2012 by flying

[Scott]

Let's try and not get too personal. Most posters can feed themselves, if they are hungry enough. Some just don't like what's on the menu and have no intention of eating it.

[flying]

Let's try and not get too personal. Most posters can feed themselves, if they are hungry enough. Some just don't like what's on the menu and have no intention of eating it.

Sorry Scott I went back & read it & agree.....I have edited it to be less personal.

Thanks & yes I agree with the rest of your post

[Ulysses G.]

You have to be kidding. One line in a video about what some Pakistanis and Taliban commanders speculate might be happening is not evidence (and there was no mention of children that I heard). This is just another unsupported conspiracy theory. It is not proof or anything close to it.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[flying]

You have to be kidding. One line in a video about what some Pakistanis and Taliban commanders speculate might be happening is not evidence (and there was no mention of children that I heard). This is just another unsupported conspiracy theory. It is not proof or anything close to it.

As I said previously..............I did not think you would watch the whole series.

As such you will only have the one line to complain about.....carry on & I will try to remember in the future to not

waste my time.

Other may enjoy the series & find it informative & interesting.

As for concrete PROOF...............kind of a funny request when one considers the CIA

doe not even admit to having drones in Pakistan at all..............another bit of info those who watch the series can find for themselves

Edited January 23, 2012 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

You told me where to look at the video and I did. No, I am not going to watch the whole series looking for something that supports your claim . If you can locate anything - from a trustworthy source, - that supports what seems to be just another conspiracy theory, please point it out..

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Fookhaht]

The drone strikes are a powerful tool against terrorism and the terrorist leaders are being decimated. This program should be continued with lots of attention on preventing collateral damage.

I don't understand what seems so insidious about this technology.

Drone technology seems to be a heck of a lot more accurate and selective than Germany's V-2 rockets targeting London or USA's A-bomb which decimated two Japanese cities, both of which MAXIMIZED "collateral damage." Targeting the "core" of the problem seems a lot more humane in warfare, despite the reality that mistakes are part of the territory.

[flying]

You told me where to look at the video and I did. No, I am not going to watch the whole series looking for something that supports your claim . If you can locate anything that supports what seems to be just another conspiracy theory - from a trustworthy source, - please point it out..

I dont think anything anyone says or shows can help you .....sorry.

But instead you say you watched & yet from 4:59 to 5:06 he specifically says......It does turn out that devices are used & people on the ground.

So take it or leave it I cannot say how your mind works analytically or not.

Instead lets say your right...............So the targeting is how?

In some little village in the Pakistan mountains a CIA guy...probably with a baseball cap & sneakers is just passing through town & paints targets eh?

Does not stick out....I mean after all just another lost tourist eh?

Yes good luck with your finding of irrefutable proof in acts that the CIA will not even confirm nor provide a tally of dead to Congress.....

Which by the way was the whole point of this side bar that has been lost.

Mai Bpen Rai

Carry On

[Ulysses G.]

But instead you say you watched & yet from 4:59 to 5:06 he specifically says......It does turn out that devices are used & people on the ground.

Maybe you need to listen again. He mumbles something about, "It does turn out the there are devices" that can be used to pinpoint targets - but we all knew that. He does not say there is any evidence of children or tribesman using these devices as opposed to CIA or Navy Seals. This is nothing but - at most - an unsubstantiated guess.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Wallaby]

Flying you know only too well that some on here will not believe anything the west does is bad. Even when there is clear evidence of wrongdoing they will just try and find a way to justify it.

The extremists on here are worse than the extremists they are fighting as they have the tools available to find the truth but refuse to acknowledge it.

[Ulysses G.]

Flying you know only too well that some on here will not believe anything the west does is bad. Even when there is clear evidence of wrongdoing they will just try and find a way to justify it.

The whole point is that there is no evidence presented on this issue - just spin,speculation, smears and personal insults as per usual.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.