How Hard Are You Prepared To Work . . .

[KarenBravo]

I suspected that KarenBravo has experienced a Thai person pushing in the queue, or something similar, and decided from that that her 'culture' is superior.

Wrong. See my post above.

[hotandhumid]

I couldn't give a monkeys if I'm accepted or not. Why would I be?

[Berkshire]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

A classic ethnocentric attitude. I'm sure that folks in Iran believe that their culture is superior to yours. And I'm also sure they'll be able to explain it in a way that sounds reasonable. Much like you just did.

[xthAi76s]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

I'm going with the ones that value truth over face and substance over appearance.

Anyway, it's no so much about cultural ideals because most cultural ideals are pretty good, in my opinion.

What's really at issue, I believe, is the percentage of people (and perhaps more importantly, the percentage of people one has encountered) who do or don't actually live up to or anywhere near their stated cultural values.

I think that on appearance, Thailand has this problem pretty badly. The marketing machines have sold Thailand to the world (or, at least to English speaking foreigners) as Place A. But, those of us who get here and settle down often find it very difficult to believe that we are in the right place as most of what we encounter is very different from the the marketing of Place A.

Edited February 6, 2012 by ThailandMan

[Berkshire]

The marketing machines have sold Thailand to the world (or, at least to English speaking foreigners) as Place A. But, those of us who get here and settle down often find it very difficult to believe that we are in the right place as most of what we encounter is very different from the the marketing of Place A.

Interesting perspective. I'm sure you know that the "marketing machine," like many popular tourist destinations in the world, prefers that you come, enjoy, spend money, leave. Emphasis on the "leave." Now the fact that some decided to stay, well that's what I would call an "unintended consequence" of the marketing machine.

[xthAi76s]

The marketing machines have sold Thailand to the world (or, at least to English speaking foreigners) as Place A. But, those of us who get here and settle down often find it very difficult to believe that we are in the right place as most of what we encounter is very different from the the marketing of Place A.

Interesting perspective. I'm sure you know that the "marketing machine," like many popular tourist destinations in the world, prefers that you come, enjoy, spend money, leave. Emphasis on the "leave." Now the fact that some decided to stay, well that's what I would call an "unintended consequence" of the marketing machine.

Well then, they should have a completely different marketing program aimed at expats/retirees.

... "Welcome to Thailand where you are really only valued as a depositor of currency and where you have almost no protections under the law."

something to this effect

[F1fanatic]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

I'm going with the ones that value truth over face and substance over appearance.

Anyway, it's no so much about cultural ideals because most cultural ideals are pretty good, in my opinion.

What's really at issue, I believe, is the percentage of people (and perhaps more importantly, the percentage of people one has encountered) who do or don't actually live up to or anywhere near their stated cultural values.

I think that on appearance, Thailand has this problem pretty badly. The marketing machines have sold Thailand to the world (or, at least to English speaking foreigners) as Place A. But, those of us who get here and settle down often find it very difficult to believe that we are in the right place as most of what we encounter is very different from the the marketing of Place A.

Quite. I always had a soft spot for Buddhism (even though I'm an atheist), but changed my views when moving here...

Even though I (mostly) understand the culture here, I will never understand how lying, to protect oneself, is the right thing to do in any culture.

That's not 'culture' - its self-aggrandisement.

[Berkshire]

The marketing machines have sold Thailand to the world (or, at least to English speaking foreigners) as Place A. But, those of us who get here and settle down often find it very difficult to believe that we are in the right place as most of what we encounter is very different from the the marketing of Place A.

Interesting perspective. I'm sure you know that the "marketing machine," like many popular tourist destinations in the world, prefers that you come, enjoy, spend money, leave. Emphasis on the "leave." Now the fact that some decided to stay, well that's what I would call an "unintended consequence" of the marketing machine.

Well then, they should have a completely different marketing program aimed at expats/retirees.

... "Welcome to Thailand where you are really only valued as a depositor of currency and where you have almost no protections under the law."

something to this effect

The point is that it's standard procedure for pretty much every popular tourist destination in the world. That is, they want you to visit but don't want you to stay. I doubt any of these places will come out and say that.

[StreetCowboy]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

[Jingthing]

The point is that it's standard procedure for pretty much every popular tourist destination in the world. That is, they want you to visit but don't want you to stay. I doubt any of these places will come out and say that.

I don't really agree with that. Each country has its own culture and attitude about foreigners. Some countries are more xenophobic than others. When I was looking into Mexico for example as a retirement destination that's not the feeling I got either from the nationals there or talking to expats about their experiences.

[StreetCowboy]

The point is that it's standard procedure for pretty much every popular tourist destination in the world. That is, they want you to visit but don't want you to stay. I doubt any of these places will come out and say that.

I don't really agree with that. Each country has its own culture and attitude about foreigners. Some countries are more xenophobic than others. When I was looking into Mexico for example as a retirement destination that's not the feeling I got either from the nationals there or talking to expats about their experiences.

Though that was before you arrived...

[F1fanatic]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

So what point are you trying to make to further this thread?

Who is trying to stop you living in peace here?

[Berkshire]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

I think "they" do.

[Jingthing]

The point is that it's standard procedure for pretty much every popular tourist destination in the world. That is, they want you to visit but don't want you to stay. I doubt any of these places will come out and say that.

I don't really agree with that. Each country has its own culture and attitude about foreigners. Some countries are more xenophobic than others. When I was looking into Mexico for example as a retirement destination that's not the feeling I got either from the nationals there or talking to expats about their experiences.

Though that was before you arrived...

Why don't you give your weird personal vendetta against me a rest?

[KarenBravo]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

A classic ethnocentric attitude. I'm sure that folks in Iran believe that their culture is superior to yours. And I'm also sure they'll be able to explain it in a way that sounds reasonable. Much like you just did.

A fascile, non-argument. Nothing to do with ethnocentricity.

My statements are simple that only require a simple choice.

The concept of "Face" over-arches everything in this country. It promotes social cohesion at the price of everything else.

It is the perfect culture for people with delicate egos.

[StreetCowboy]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

So what point are you trying to make to further this thread?

Who is trying to stop you living in peace here?

My point was that the word 'just' in a sentence is a brief way of saying "I don't understand the complexities of it, and would like to treat it in a simplistic and ignorant fashion" as in "if you don;t like it, why don't you just leave?"; "why don't they just let us stay here" - "they" being the whole of Thailand, officialdom, bureaucracy, clulture, neighbours et al, and "us" being 'me personally, but not Nigerians or Burmese or sex tourists or people importing cheap goods or backpackers or ...'. Unfortunately, its not so simple...

There are a set of rules that we can abide me, and that might be inconvenient and expensive for some of us, but those rules are intended to allow in certain desirable people and keep out undesirable people, If I fall foul of them, then perhaps it would be easier for me to improve myself than to change the whole of Thailand.

SC

[Berkshire]

The point is that it's standard procedure for pretty much every popular tourist destination in the world. That is, they want you to visit but don't want you to stay. I doubt any of these places will come out and say that.

I don't really agree with that. Each country has its own culture and attitude about foreigners. Some countries are more xenophobic than others. When I was looking into Mexico for example as a retirement destination that's not the feeling I got either from the nationals there or talking to expats about their experiences.

Well of course I don't disagree with you. There are certainly many places that are trying hard to attract retirees, not just tourists. Those places are clearly desperate for foreign currency. But there are places that would really prefer tourist to be just that. Hawaii comes to mind. That island really couldn't handle any more people settling there, but still they come. And Thailand is not exactly trying to attract longstay-foreigners, yet still they come. Sometimes it seems like Thailand is trying to discourage longstay-foreigners. Yet still they come. Wonder why that is?

[nocturn]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

So what point are you trying to make to further this thread?

Who is trying to stop you living in peace here?

My point was that the word 'just' in a sentence is a brief way of saying "I don't understand the complexities of it, and would like to treat it in a simplistic and ignorant fashion" as in "if you don;t like it, why don't you just leave?"; "why don't they just let us stay here" - "they" being the whole of Thailand, officialdom, bureaucracy, clulture, neighbours et al, and "us" being 'me personally, but not Nigerians or Burmese or sex tourists or people importing cheap goods or backpackers or ...'. Unfortunately, its not so simple...

There are a set of rules that we can abide me, and that might be inconvenient and expensive for some of us, but those rules are intended to allow in certain desirable people and keep out undesirable people, If I fall foul of them, then perhaps it would be easier for me to improve myself than to change the whole of Thailand.

SC

you way way overreaching the intelligence of the board in general.

did you really think "they" would be able to understand you even after you had explained yourself?

your cup must truly be half full.

[StreetCowboy]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

So what point are you trying to make to further this thread?

Who is trying to stop you living in peace here?

My point was that the word 'just' in a sentence is a brief way of saying "I don't understand the complexities of it, and would like to treat it in a simplistic and ignorant fashion" as in "if you don;t like it, why don't you just leave?"; "why don't they just let us stay here" - "they" being the whole of Thailand, officialdom, bureaucracy, clulture, neighbours et al, and "us" being 'me personally, but not Nigerians or Burmese or sex tourists or people importing cheap goods or backpackers or ...'. Unfortunately, its not so simple...

There are a set of rules that we can abide me, and that might be inconvenient and expensive for some of us, but those rules are intended to allow in certain desirable people and keep out undesirable people, If I fall foul of them, then perhaps it would be easier for me to improve myself than to change the whole of Thailand.

SC

you way way overreaching the intelligence of the board in general.

did you really think "they" would be able to understand you even after you had explained yourself?

your cup must truly be half full.

Why don't they just top it up?

SC

Edit: to be honest, my cup runneth over

Edited February 6, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[PattaniMan]

My point was that the word 'just' in a sentence is a brief way of saying "I don't understand the complexities of it, and would like to treat it in a simplistic and ignorant fashion" as in "if you don;t like it, why don't you just leave?"; "why don't they just let us stay here" - "they" being the whole of Thailand, officialdom, bureaucracy, clulture, neighbours et al, and "us" being 'me personally, but not Nigerians or Burmese or sex tourists or people importing cheap goods or backpackers or ...'. Unfortunately, its not so simple...

I just had another whisky. And my complaint is that today they have just put the price up from 110 baht to 115 baht. Bastards. All of them.

[atyclb]

A question anyone may pose to themselves or others.

How many are living here because of the virtues of society; morality, honesty, integrity, substance, reliability, accountability, responsibility, % of competents, lack or greed and selfishness.

I am not nor have I ever met anyone that is. One of the primary overriding reasons for being in Thailand is related to social life and the perception of it being a place amply suited for such.

It is what it is.

[tombkk]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

Very interesting way of putting it. Are you entirely sure you are unbiased?

I'd like to know where you are from, if that is not too intrusive. It would help me understand our views better. Furthermore, if that is not too much to ask: How long have you lived in Thailand?

Remark: It is quite normal that everybody thinks that their cultural norms are better than others. You just have to be aware that this works both ways, and that it affects you very much when you suddenly live in another culture.

[onthemoon]

Pray tell, what am I missing??

I can't tell you in one paragraph. The main reason I live in Thailand are the Thai people. Both at home and in the office I am the only farang, most of my friends are Thais, but maybe it's just me.

What do I like about the Thais? - I'll write that book when I retire.

What do I not like about the Thais? - There are some things, but they are less important for me. Obviously, because otherwise I wouldn't be living here, would I?

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

Hm. You are only thinking about your own benefit while living with Thais. And you are making no compromises whatsoever, and you are proud of it.

OK.....

[kurnell]

Pray tell, what am I missing??

I can't tell you in one paragraph. The main reason I live in Thailand are the Thai people. Both at home and in the office I am the only farang, most of my friends are Thais, but maybe it's just me.

What do I like about the Thais? - I'll write that book when I retire.

What do I not like about the Thais? - There are some things, but they are less important for me. Obviously, because otherwise I wouldn't be living here, would I?

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

Hm. You are only thinking about your own benefit while living with Thais. And you are making no compromises whatsoever, and you are proud of it.

OK.....

I really do not have a clue what you are talking about.

[atyclb]

A question anyone may pose to themselves or others.

How many are living here because of the virtues of society; morality, honesty, integrity, substance, reliability, accountability, responsibility, % of competents, lack or greed and selfishness.

I am not nor have I ever met anyone that is. One of the primary overriding reasons for being in Thailand is related to social life and the perception of it being a place amply suited for such.

It is what it is.

PS; I have not encountered a whole lot of farangs that have a high level of function either, in the framework of the term "international standard" Perhaps the laxity of Thai society attracts some people more than others. My perceptions are echoed by Japanese, Korean, and Swiss and German precision level people. I even know some high function Thais that feel the same way. Perhaps a way to put is is there is a lot of dysfunction in the society. Some choose to rationalize it by saying it is "culture", different stye, whatever.

Edited February 7, 2012 by atyclb

[atyclb]

Pray tell, what am I missing??

I can't tell you in one paragraph. The main reason I live in Thailand are the Thai people. Both at home and in the office I am the only farang, most of my friends are Thais, but maybe it's just me.

What do I like about the Thais? - I'll write that book when I retire.

What do I not like about the Thais? - There are some things, but they are less important for me. Obviously, because otherwise I wouldn't be living here, would I?

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

Hm. You are only thinking about your own benefit while living with Thais. And you are making no compromises whatsoever, and you are proud of it.

OK.....

If what he meant to say is his office staff consists of 2 farangs and 10 Thais and 10 Thais at home aka don't show up to work, it is a significant issue. Perhaps you think an employer that does not flex and allow his Thai employees to "not come to work" is a mean, selfish, and uncompromising person?

[F1fanatic]

"They" is the cornerstone of bigotry, as "just" is the measure of ignorance.

Why don't they just let us live in peace here?

SC

So what point are you trying to make to further this thread?

Who is trying to stop you living in peace here?

My point was that the word 'just' in a sentence is a brief way of saying "I don't understand the complexities of it, and would like to treat it in a simplistic and ignorant fashion" as in "if you don;t like it, why don't you just leave?"; "why don't they just let us stay here" - "they" being the whole of Thailand, officialdom, bureaucracy, clulture, neighbours et al, and "us" being 'me personally, but not Nigerians or Burmese or sex tourists or people importing cheap goods or backpackers or ...'. Unfortunately, its not so simple...

There are a set of rules that we can abide me, and that might be inconvenient and expensive for some of us, but those rules are intended to allow in certain desirable people and keep out undesirable people, If I fall foul of them, then perhaps it would be easier for me to improve myself than to change the whole of Thailand.

SC

you way way overreaching the intelligence of the board in general.

did you really think "they" would be able to understand you even after you had explained yourself?

your cup must truly be half full.

Obviously anyone who didn't immediately gather the missing appostrophes around 'they' in SC's post are stupid, unlike you .

Once SC pointed out the intention behind his post, it became more obvious - which presumably, is why you posted AFTER his explanatory post?

[Berkshire]

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

A classic ethnocentric attitude. I'm sure that folks in Iran believe that their culture is superior to yours. And I'm also sure they'll be able to explain it in a way that sounds reasonable. Much like you just did.

A fascile, non-argument. Nothing to do with ethnocentricity.

My statements are simple that only require a simple choice.

The concept of "Face" over-arches everything in this country. It promotes social cohesion at the price of everything else.

It is the perfect culture for people with delicate egos.

I'm sure you realize that every time you try to explain yourself, you demonstrate more of your ethnocentric views. That and your tendency to exaggerate. This whole face issue that you're hung up on is really not that huge a deal. Another way to explain it is that eastern societies try to live in harmony and avoid offending others unnecessarily. This may lead to what some see as dishonesty (e.g., a white lie) when straight talk may just not be appropriate. Anyways, no need to go back and forth. Believe as you will.

[robblok]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

Good argument, a government that tells everything is ok flood wise just to save face. Lying until they cant deny it anymore.

[Jingthing]

I don't find any need to get into labeling different cultures superior or inferior. Especially when considering that historically such thinking has been closely linked with racism and genocide. HOWEVER, I do feel as human civilizations have progressed that we can assign values to different things and objectively label them as undesirable evils. Such as: genocide, slavery, racism, corruption, theocracy, etc.