How Hard Are You Prepared To Work . . .

[atyclb]

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

A classic ethnocentric attitude. I'm sure that folks in Iran believe that their culture is superior to yours. And I'm also sure they'll be able to explain it in a way that sounds reasonable. Much like you just did.

A fascile, non-argument. Nothing to do with ethnocentricity.

My statements are simple that only require a simple choice.

The concept of "Face" over-arches everything in this country. It promotes social cohesion at the price of everything else.

It is the perfect culture for people with delicate egos.

I'm sure you realize that every time you try to explain yourself, you demonstrate more of your ethnocentric views. That and your tendency to exaggerate. This whole face issue that you're hung up on is really not that huge a deal. Another way to explain it is that eastern societies try to live in harmony and avoid offending others unnecessarily. This may lead to what some see as dishonesty (e.g., a white lie) when straight talk may just not be appropriate. Anyways, no need to go back and forth. Believe as you will.

The "face" issue also exists in Japan, but the difference is Japan has a high level of integrity and morality and much lower cheating and corruption. Their educational standards are also much different as are the concepts of organization, efficiency and reliability. Japan was once an agricultural society as is/was Thailand. With significantly greater natural resources, and land there must be something to explain how Japan was building military grade aircraft and ships, not to mention submarines, 60 years ago. Korea has also emerged as a leader in the region not to mention Taiwan. Taiwans capitol Taipei actually has unobstructed sidewalks. Walking or riding a bicycle is a pleasure, not an obstacle course.

Living in Thailand means learning to just accept the way things are. Nothings going to change in the near future.

Some of us use the mechanisms of denial and/or rationalization.

[ludditeman]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

Very interesting way of putting it. Are you entirely sure you are unbiased?

I'd like to know where you are from, if that is not too intrusive. It would help me understand our views better. Furthermore, if that is not too much to ask: How long have you lived in Thailand?

Remark: It is quite normal that everybody thinks that their cultural norms are better than others. You just have to be aware that this works both ways, and that it affects you very much when you suddenly live in another culture.

Your culture also values

Women above men

Property above family

Lying to save people's feeling isn't that big a deal IMHO.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ludditeman

[F1fanatic]

Except that its rarely done to save someone else's feelings - 'saving face' is all about saving the feelings of the person telling the lie.

[Berkshire]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?

Good argument, a government that tells everything is ok flood wise just to save face. Lying until they cant deny it anymore.

Sort of like a government that says another country has WMD's so they can wage war? Or certain politicians (read Republicans) who hope their country would fail so that their party can return to power? Or certain countries who say they're not manipulating their currency? Or certain countries that believe that Assad should stay in power? Or a certain cruise ship captain who insists that he didn't abandon ship? We can go at this all day long about pretty much any country. What's your point?

[F1fanatic]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

[MarkCyr]

I don't go out of my way in Thailand to fit in any more than I do in Japan. I'm pretty much nice to people in any country I live...and I do adapt and even embrace cultural practices that I like -- including trying to learn the language. But I don't do it to "fit in" with the locals. This is Asia, and with the exception of perhaps the Philippines, if you are born as an outsider, an outsider you will remain for as long as you live there. In fact, as far as I've seen, those who try too hard to fit in actually freak the locals out a bit. Best to keep a healthy amount of farang smell about you and enjoy your time there.

[robblok]

Sort of like a government that says another country has WMD's so they can wage war? Or certain politicians (read Republicans) who hope their country would fail so that their party can return to power? Or certain countries who say they're not manipulating their currency? Or certain countries that believe that Assad should stay in power? Or a certain cruise ship captain who insists that he didn't abandon ship? We can go at this all day long about pretty much any country. What's your point?

Point is it happens all the time here, the flooding was just a great example of it. I don't deny that it happens somewhere else too. But not on the scale you see here. Also repercussions are had if you lie. The captain is going to be punished. Here if you are caught you just go to an inactive post.

[onthemoon]

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

Hm. You are only thinking about your own benefit while living with Thais. And you are making no compromises whatsoever, and you are proud of it.

OK.....

I really do not have a clue what you are talking about.

We may have a misunderstand here. I'll try to explain my side:

1. You say you are here only for your own benefit.

2. I conclude that since you are not interested in the benefit of the Thai people around you, you can't have any Thai people around you.

3. You say that you do.

4. I question that you don't care about them. In fact, I think you do.

Does it make sense now?

(Had to delete some quotes because the system wouldn't let me have "too many" opening/closing tags.)

[onthemoon]

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

Hm. You are only thinking about your own benefit while living with Thais. And you are making no compromises whatsoever, and you are proud of it.

OK.....

If what he meant to say is his office staff consists of 2 farangs and 10 Thais and 10 Thais at home aka don't show up to work, it is a significant issue. Perhaps you think an employer that does not flex and allow his Thai employees to "not come to work" is a mean, selfish, and uncompromising person?

I don't think he meant to say that. Anybody who thinks that it's OK for their staff to not come to work will be out of business very quickly.

[tombkk]

Except that its rarely done to save someone else's feelings - 'saving face' is all about saving the feelings of the person telling the lie.

Not necessarily. I can also help saving the face of the person talked to, or a person referred to.

In fact, the concept of 'saving face' , which is not unique to Thailand, is very difficult to grasp for Westerners. Many books have been written, but as long as we do not grow up in a culture that embraces the concept as an integral part, we will not fully understand it.

It is therefore inadvisable to say that the concept is bad per se, and saying that it is tantamount to lieing. It is better to say "I don't understand the concept of saving/losing face".

[lonexpat]

Up to date plucked 2337 armpits. The giggles and slaps on my bald head inticate acceptance is a far from near occurance. But like the OP, One thous live in hope.

[KeyserSoze01]

Bottom line , you will never bee accepted as a Thai , You maybe tolerated but as soon as the sh.. hits the fan you are a Falang.

I been here 20 yrs and this comment is spot on from my experience .

As it would be in any other country, including "your own".

I beg to differ with you once again. Foreigners in the west are often given greater defference over residents. Just ask the folks from the UK. A foreigner in Thailand is always assumed to be at fault, even if they have nothing to do with a situation.

[cmsally]

I think the aspect of saving face is overplayed. It does factor into a lot of situations but it doesn't go on throughout every interaction. It happens in certain social situations but these can often play alongside a very different kind of scenario.

A little bit like how the bureaucracy and the army can often interact. On one hand you have the very correct, polite although often a bit self important types who look as though they are running things. Then you have the other, usually rougher with a few loose cannons and cut a bit of slack to be more direct and forceful because of their role.

This kind of interplay can happen throughout society. Such as local smarmy politicians/bureacrats and the local nack leng etc etc

Status and position also factor into the face saving game too. The higher up you go, not many faces have to be saved.

It's not too clear cut but a lot rests on politeness. To avoid the worse aspects you can often play a more complicated game to get the advantage over others.

[Berkshire]

Sort of like a government that says another country has WMD's so they can wage war? Or certain politicians (read Republicans) who hope their country would fail so that their party can return to power? Or certain countries who say they're not manipulating their currency? Or certain countries that believe that Assad should stay in power? Or a certain cruise ship captain who insists that he didn't abandon ship? We can go at this all day long about pretty much any country. What's your point?

Point is it happens all the time here, the flooding was just a great example of it. I don't deny that it happens somewhere else too. But not on the scale you see here. Also repercussions are had if you lie. The captain is going to be punished. Here if you are caught you just go to an inactive post.

I don't see it happening that much in social circles...but then that depends on the circle that you associate with. In political circles, that's normal, as it is in the realm of politics in any country. That was my point, that politicians lie and it's not a Thai thing or a face thing. The captain was sort of a bad example as he's clearly not a politician.

[Berkshire]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

[cmsally]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

I think it occurs more when people don't really know each that well, or when business is mixed with social meeting.

[xthAi76s]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

I thought the same until I started discussing 'sensitive' topics with some of the Thai people in my circle.

Have you discussed any sensitive topics with Thais in your circle? Things like discussion about the merits of certain aspects of Thai society?

[Berkshire]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

I thought the same until I started discussing 'sensitive' topics with some of the Thai people in my circle.

Have you discussed any sensitive topics with Thais in your circle? Things like discussion about the merits of certain aspects of Thai society?

Absolutely (discussing sensitive topics). Thais are actually quite candid and can be pretty tough on their own. I've heard some seriously critical comments regarding politicians and such. But usually, these conversations we have are in Thai. If they had to speak in English, they're usually much more docile and apprehensive, afraid of saying things the wrong way.

[xthAi76s]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

I thought the same until I started discussing 'sensitive' topics with some of the Thai people in my circle.

Have you discussed any sensitive topics with Thais in your circle? Things like discussion about the merits of certain aspects of Thai society?

Absolutely (discussing sensitive topics). Thais are actually quite candid and can be pretty tough on their own. I've heard some seriously critical comments regarding politicians and such. But usually, these conversations we have are in Thai. If they had to speak in English, they're usually much more docile and apprehensive, afraid of saying things the wrong way.

Interesting... Surely, there will be a wide variety of people/personality types in a population of 65+ million or so. That makes sense. What I often find is the Thais I know who are fluent in English still will often make excuses for any kind of problems in Thai society that might be due to 'faulty' culture. They are not hesitant to blame an individual public figure or the 'political system', but rarely will they say something like "Thai people need to be better educated about the world around them". Many might say something like "The politicians need to do a better job of improving the education system" or something to this effect. They will blame so long as the person or entity being blamed is an entity designed for it -- like in politics. They will never something self-critical, for example, like "I think some of my views about the world are shaped by what I consider to be faulty, insular, xenophobic culture, and I try to pay attention to this when I'm developing opinions about certain things." Likewise, they would never say something like "I think the fact that we have a psuedo caste system here whereby brown people, the real, historial, native Thais (those who comprise the vast majority of the country) are poorly represented in key, power industries and indeed seem to accept a tacit belief that they are somehow inferior to their Chinese leaders). Light conversations... sure, people will point at an establishment and blame it/them, but real stuff, the 'meat and potatoes' -- they will make excuses. Same irrespective of English or Thai being used as the medium.

[F1fanatic]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

OK. So would you be as forthright to a Thai that has justifiably 'pissed you off' as you would be to a farang?

I certainly wouldn't! A farang causing a Thai to lose face is not a good idea...

As I said in an earlier post, 'saving face' is about saving one's own face - not somebody elses - unless, they are thought to be 'superior'.

[Berkshire]

They will never something self-critical, for example, like "I think some of my views about the world are shaped by what I consider to be faulty, insular, xenophobic culture, and I try to pay attention to this when I'm developing opinions about certain things."

The term "they" can apply to many farangs who post on TV.

[xthAi76s]

They will never something self-critical, for example, like "I think some of my views about the world are shaped by what I consider to be faulty, insular, xenophobic culture, and I try to pay attention to this when I'm developing opinions about certain things."

The term "they" can apply to many farangs who post on TV.

Can't argue with that.

[connda]

Honestly, I stopped that nonsense about trying to be accepted by anyone many years ago. I am who I am -- accept me a face value and I'll do the same.

With that said though -- I do live here. When I lived in North America, I complained about immigrants (legal and illegal) who chose to work in my country but not learn the language and culture. So here in Thailand, I walk my talk. I'm trying to learn the language and understand the culture. It's an ongoing process. I'm I going to become Thai. No. I'm I going to work to be accepted. Definitely not.

Those who chose to accept me on my own merit. Great. I'll do the same with them.

[nocturn]

They will never something self-critical, for example, like "I think some of my views about the world are shaped by what I consider to be faulty, insular, xenophobic culture, and I try to pay attention to this when I'm developing opinions about certain things."

The term "they" can apply to many farangs who post on TV.

Can't argue with that.

i tend to regard the majority of posters on here as the personification of "them" to my "us"

[nocturn]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

OK. So would you be as forthright to a Thai that has justifiably 'pissed you off' as you would be to a farang?

I certainly wouldn't! A farang causing a Thai to lose face is not a good idea...

As I said in an earlier post, 'saving face' is about saving one's own face - not somebody elses - unless, they are thought to be 'superior'.

if the reason they pissed me off was justifiable, i would be in the wrong.

[Moonrakers]

This is not about governments - everyone knows politicians are lying, thieving scum - its about individuals and 'culture'.

The cruise ship captain is not exactly getting much support...

As I said above, I do not see this rampant lying and "face-saving" thing in the Thai social circles that I associate with. And yes, the cruise ship captain didn't really fit in with the other examples relating to lying politicians. It just sort of popped in my head at that moment.

OK. So would you be as forthright to a Thai that has justifiably 'pissed you off' as you would be to a farang?

I certainly wouldn't! A farang causing a Thai to lose face is not a good idea...

As I said in an earlier post, 'saving face' is about saving one's own face - not somebody elses - unless, they are thought to be 'superior'.

I would be as forthright with a Thai as I would with a farang and am so should the need arise. What's more is that in the 10 yrs plus I have been here, I have not had a problem as a result. If anything, ignoring the 'face' nonsense has been beneficial because it helps to get things done.

[TAWP]

Being a manager you cannot allow people hiding behind 'face'. Not if you intend on succeeding on any scale. We encourage our employees to be open and direct - and of course some of our better employees for different reasons [perhaps being studying outside for several years etc] are not your typical Thai, but they are also successful and carry a good income.

[StreetCowboy]

Why would you not respect the face of a farang?

SC

[nocturn]

Being a manager you cannot allow people hiding behind 'face'. Not if you intend on succeeding on any scale. We encourage our employees to be open and direct - and of course some of our better employees for different reasons [perhaps being studying outside for several years etc] are not your typical Thai, but they are also successful and carry a good income.

so typically thais are poor failures?

[David48]

Congratulations Hardened Soul ... in a week your thread is approaching 200 replies ... food for those who thought the conversation had diminished here in the General Topics section.

As for my thoughts ... I find it incredibly easy living in Thailand, though it's only been for 3 month stints at a time.

How hard am I prepared to work? ... different levels for different things.

With the gf's family ... incredibly hard.

Her family is slowly becoming my family and there is compromise and respect from both sides.

In Business ... less so because money is money.

In street life ... watch the Thai and mirror (but not emulate) them.

I see a beggar, I want to give, do the Thai give?

If they give ... then so do I.

Thais want to make merit and be charitable ... if they don't give, it's a good indication that it's a scam.

Shopping ... don't like the Hi-So places.

For character ... my gf's father said that he doesn't like the Hi-So Thais.

I replied (through the gf) great ... I'm not Hi-So either, nor Lo-So ... I'm just So-So ... we all laughed.

As for dress ... the gf says the Thai attitude is that 'shorts' are for boys.

BUT, my dress problems are solved ... I simply ask the gf what to wear and problem solved as she takes into consideration my aversion to heat (I like to wear shorts) flip flops or 'proper' shoes etc.

If she's not there it's a ... look for not too crumpled shirt, sniff the armpit and if both thumbs up ... it's the shirt for me.

When I comes to language ... I stink. To learn 'By gin cow gun mai crup' (lets go eat together) ... took me the best part of half a day watching and repeating the nice Thai girl on the YouTube clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhgSyb6SodA

But the respect you get from the Thai ... because you make this small effort to learn little bit their language is well worth it.

My attitude is ... TiTs, it's their country and I am but a guest, and very appreciative of this fact.

I know that sometimes the Thai friends and family try and mirror me but not emulate me ... this brings us both mutual respect.