Anyone With Young Kids ?

[Belfastboy]

I have great news...Mrs Belfastboy is 3 months pregnant... our first kid..

we planned it dow to a tee..lol....but my question is, we plan to go live in thailand for a bout 4 -5 years while the kid (s)? are young and then move back here to the UK fro their education....thats the plan anyhow...

was just wondering is there any others out there with young kids in bangkok...and just wondering how it went? nightmare? dream...?

any experiences shared, i wud be grateful... im all new to this game...lol

so excited...just pray he/she is healthy...

[GuestHouse]

Can't advise but congratulations hope everything goes well.

[terdsak_12]

If you've got a few quid, or a decentm job raising kids here is easy. I got a load of maids to deal with the dirty stuff. You'll need a decent motor to get around in. Houses are cheap, schools can be a killer though. All they seem interested in is gouging you for money.

[Neeranam]

Belfast Boy - why Bangkok? Are you going to be working?

IMO, I can't think of a worse plce for bring up kids. We lived there for a while - young kid - but left when she was walking. The air is very dirty, traffic etc.

In Isaan everything is so much better. Schools are a fraction of the price.

There is a real community feeling too - unlike Bangers.

[bkkmadness]

Nice one Belfastboy, congrats.

[chanchao]

Schools are only expensive if you're intent on selecting an international school where diplomants and expat managers for big multinational companies send their kids. They need to do so because they're only in Thailand temporary, and a more Thai oriented education would have little added benefit.

Aside from those schools there's loads of public and private Thai schools that are very good. Anyway, that's still years away before you will have to worry about that.

And I'm not congratulating you until the baby's there!

Anyway, pregnancy is the most wonderful time of having kids. The next best time is after they leave the house. Kids are just so much quieter and easier to take care of before they're born. Then I turn on the TV and see all kinds of mammels being born on Discovery channel. Like, they're born and 5 minutes later they're walking around! Gawd it sucks being human.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[OldAsiaHand]

The only advantage Thailand offers for raising children, at least that I can see, is the ready availability of inexpensive child care help for the parents. We were certainly happy to have that when our children were young, but I have serious doubts our children profited from it as much as we did.

On the other hand, even that advantage has to be weighed against the obvious disadvantages of Thailand. This is, after all, the third world, and wishing it was something else doesn't make it so. Surely nobody would prefer his children grow up in the third world if he has a choice.

A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious? Is he suggesting that pulling your children down to the lowest rungs of society will serve them well as they grow into adults? My God. It seems to me that your children deserve a great deal more than Isaan if you are able to give it to them.

Edited December 8, 2005 by OldAsiaHand

[Neeranam]

A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious? Is he suggesting that pulling your children down to the lowest rungs of society will serve them well as they grow into adults? My God. It seems to me that your children deserve a great deal more than Isaan if you are able to give it to them.

Yes I am very serious. Pulling them down to the lowest rungs of society - what <deleted>.

We don't live in rural Issan, we live in a large city - Khon Kaen.

If you are thinking of sending your kids to an International school, I suggest hangin out Major Cineplex Ekkamai and witness the type of reject that they churn out.

[leisurely]

We have a five year old and she adores living in Thailand. I do agree with the third world sentiments (once you get out of Bangers you really are in a developing nation) however, I would say that we are lucky. Fabulous maid, brilliant weather to allow her to swim every day, indulgent Thai nationals. I would like to move to somewhere slightly more developed but she would miss it so much we will probably stay for a couple more years.

Good luck, enjoy the pregnancy and the quietness at the moment, once the little one arrives it is non stop unless of course you have a FAB maid.

[leisurely]

Should not have posted the quantifier once you get outside bangkok it becomes a developing nation. One only needs to look along any soi and I mean any to see the squalor and dirt that some people have to live in.

[samran]

If you have the moulah, then it can be great. We are expecting our first next year, and we are very much looking forward to having some hired help around the house. Who wants to wash soiled baby clothers all day?

As for international schools here, many of them are international in name only. They are mostly filled with the children of very wealthy or upper middle class thai kids who at the end of the day (depending on the school) still struggle to speak english properly.

The 3 or 4 truely international schools are very very expensive, and come with the downside of having a high turnover as their parents come and go on their expat jobs. The kids therefore don't necessarily get the stablilty of having a good cohort of mates through your schooling days, which is something I sure appriciated.

As I said, they are very expensive, as/more expensive as some of the posher schools back in OZ can be. In my case, it helps to have a wife who is an international school teacher though, as you get free/heavily discounted education.

[think_too_mut]

A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious? Is he suggesting that pulling your children down to the lowest rungs of society will serve them well as they grow into adults? My God. It seems to me that your children deserve a great deal more than Isaan if you are able to give it to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Children playing, somewhere in Isaan. You guessed it, it's not in a gated community, just average plebs, 2 houses down from in-laws.

[charles]

Surely nobody would prefer his children grow up in the third world if he has a choice.

That is the conclusion I've come to. Now we have a baby, all being well we will be off back to the UK.

I chose to come to live in Thailand and have generally loved living here. But as much as I've loved living here, never ever for one second have I wished that I was Thai or that I'd been brought up in Thailand. In fact I've always felt very fortunate that I wasn't. So why oh why would I want to impose being brought up in Thailand on my child?

At first I thought we'd stay and thought up plenty of rather (over) idealistic justifications of how it might be good for our child. But being rational, it just doesn't stack up, and it's not even a matter of money.

1. Education is a killler. It is either nowhere anywhere near Western standards or is hugely expensive. And given the way international school kids seem to grow up in a kind of vacuum here, I'd still say a decent (free) English state school would be better, on the whole.

2. Recreation is difficult, at least in Bangkok. The main thing to do is going to shopping malls. Getting around is a fraught experience. In the UK in most places it is so quick and easy to just drive out into the countryside, where you can walk around and relax as you please. How does someone living in Bangkok go about "walking around the countryside" on a Saturday afternoon?

3. Safety and people's (lack of) sense of responsibility is a real worry when you have a child. Of course a kid can get hit by a bus in the West, no doubt, but at least it is less probable. For &lt;deleted&gt;'s sake kids get killed here just standing at a bus stop or when trying to get on the bus!

I'd even include more indirect considerations like that in Thailand the rule of law is weak and not evenly applied. Corruption and negligence is endemic. Is that the sort of environment you want for your child? You don't know when things like this are going to bite you. Certainly as a foreigner, your less likely to have the connections or the "insulation" to protect against these issues.

[think_too_mut]

Surely nobody would prefer his children grow up in the third world if he has a choice.

1. Education is a killler. It is either nowhere anywhere near Western standards or is hugely expensive. And given the way international school kids seem to grow up in a kind of vacuum here, I'd still say a decent (free) English state school would be better, on the whole.

2. Recreation is difficult, at least in Bangkok. The main thing to do is going to shopping malls. Getting around is a fraught experience. In the UK in most places it is so quick and easy to just drive out into the countryside, where you can walk around and relax as you please. How does someone living in Bangkok go about "walking around the countryside" on a Saturday afternoon?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Go to Australia. World class education and above world-class recreation. 85% of population lives less than 90mins from a beach, free for all, even if one has no job.

Bondi Beach is 15 mins from city centre, most famous of 34 beaches in Sydney.

(Guess why the color of Apple iMac back in 1998. was named "Bondi Blue").

[astral]

Why is everyone on about schools. The kid will be 5 at the most by the

time they leave Thailand...........

Forget Bangkok if you can and head for the provinces.

A much better pace of life and a lot safer. Just look at the bombs in Bangkok today 8 Dec 2005

[chanchao]

> This is, after all, the third world, and wishing it was something else

> doesn't make it so. Surely nobody would prefer his children grow up in the

> third world if he has a choice.

> A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your

> children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious?

Just as I got to this paragraph I was wondering if you were serious.

But indeed, people who feel fortunate not to have been raised in Thailand or not to have to live here are indeed better off grabbing that taxi to Don Muang.

Anyway I do recognize that there are more safety risks here, especially traffic, so I plan to take the 'turtle approach' and just have a couple extra kids as backup.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited December 8, 2005 by chanchao

[BKK90210]

Don't be so shock if your kid is spoiled rotten by your maid. Thai maids and Thais in general love babies and small kids, especially farang kids. As for the school, the good one in my experience is St. John (Lad Prao area), don't know the ranking among international school in BKK. They have 3 yrs kindergarden, both thai and english curriculum. I went through all thai curriculum (girl side) until 9th grade and had no problem continuing in american high school without losing any time at all, and then went on to the university . The kindergarden is a coed though. So far that I know they're still have the same president and vice-president since my time there. Many of my friends had gone to high school in England with no problem at all. When I left they did all the academic paper works for me for free. I had no problem with english that much. It is very good school in my humble experience, even without being in the international side. It's not that cheap but not that expensive. We're planning to adopt 2 thai kids and sending them there in the future. Good luck

[skylar]

And given the way international school kids seem to grow up in a kind of vacuum here, I'd still say a decent (free) English state school would be better, on the whole.

And on what do you base that uninformed judgement? Have you ever been a student at an international school in Bangkok and also a student at a comprehensive in England? I was both. And the difference I saw was enormous in terms of the quality of the facilities and the availability of activities and the teaching staff.

My comprehensive was well equipped but sometimes there just wasn't the money for extras, whereas the international school could pull all the stops out. My teachers at the the comprehensive were good, but the international school teachers always went out of their way for their students in terms of giving up their personal time to go over concepts as well as run after school activities. There were many more subjects to choose from at the international school and small classes. Being at an international school also stamps out any racial prejudice - there's no room for it.

You seem to say that international school students are spoilt and have no idea of reality. I'll say that most of these students never had access to the quality of education that an international school the level that ISB, BPS or even NIST and Ruamrudee offer prior to moving to Thailand. I am glad that I went to school with people from diverse backgrounds and studied for the IB Diploma. I didn't work, but there were a few students at school who did (farang and luk krueng) and they juggled school and work pretty well.

If I had a choice for any child, I'd take international over government any day. International schools may not be academically selective (would this be your definition of a 'good' government school?), but an average student will obtain way above average marks if they put in the effort and have a good time doing it too. Parents who would choose otherwise just have the Tall Poppy Syndrome.

And before people drag out the Third World country crap as being unsuitable for children, I saw many homeless people in England during the Christmas holidays. They were freezing and probably starving. Paedophiles are in the news every week. Council housing estates are about as grim as a shack under a Thai expressway. England and Thailand are nice places if you have the money, and aren't such nice places if you don't. Corruption is everywhere (hello, the Rockdale City Council in Sydney was sacked after accepting bribes from property developers, and what about David Blunkett?) It's the lesser of the two evils, really.

I apologise for being so ###### long winded, but really the vast majority of the negative comments I have seen so far give no good reason as to why the OP should not want his child to spend the first few years of its life here.

[srisatch]

Congratulations!

Hope it all goes well!

Sorry this goes on a bit...but..!!

We have had to think long and hard about this!

It really comes down to what you want (and need) for yourselves and your wishes and expectations for the child..particularly once you see who they are.

I think that growing up in most places in the LOS, certainly until 5 or 6, is pretty good for a child assuming your wife has a 'normal' fairly extended family and you live in a place that is OK..the child will have grannies, aunties, siblings in abundance..and I would therefore exclude BKK unless you have to live there...later on BKK has all the facilities anyone could want..you just have to travel to them with a face mask on!

When it comes to schools and later..it will be really a question of money. If you go back to the UK one would have to ask..where?...as people have pointed out large swathes of the UK urban areas are dire and the schools, too....even if they are multicultural to the extent of a Jackson Pollock painting...but plenty of perfectly decent state schools...just not everywhere. In LOS I think it is much the same...One writer said there were 'plenty' of good Thai schools....does not say where and apart from one choice someone sent me I have yet to hear one 'good' school named!! I think Skylar's account of education in LOS sounds about right..but it costs..and it determines where you live...it is not in Isaan I fear!

What we have decided is that is essential the children are 100% fluent in Thai and English and that they can read and write properly in both languages...that while they are 'luk khreung' it is essential they can function as though they were completely Thai and completely 'farang'. I suppose to tell true! We want them to have the manners and confidence of Thai girls, but think like farangs. No wilting pansies saying 'mai roo'!

As it is almost impossible to be educated in Thai, let alone Thai culture in the UK, while you Can learn English here..and anyway we teach them..we have decided that we will stay until that fluency and ability has been achieved..we reckon probably by the time they are 8 or 9...then we will go to an English speaking country for a while... we think that it matters not, then, in another few years whether they go to an IB school or take A levels in the UK....but we would want them to have the chance to go to a decent UK university....so after all that they can choose where to be.......but there are long term decisions about money and property....Yes we might well have chosen to go to Oz, but we are too poor and too old!!

so you though her getting pregnant was the difficult bit!!

Enjoy!

[think_too_mut]

I think that growing up in most places in the LOS, certainly until 5 or 6, is pretty good for a child assuming your wife has a 'normal' fairly extended family and you live in a place that is OK..the child will have grannies, aunties, siblings in abundance..and I would therefore exclude BKK unless you have to live there...later on BKK has all the facilities anyone could want..you just have to travel to them with a face mask on!

When it comes to schools and later..it will be really a question of money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would agree that the early years spent in Thailand could be very pleasant for the child. Good climate, love and attention from anyone and everyone. My baby is not shy, accepts and trusts the people and enjoys anyone's company in BKK. No harm, no threat, just the love Thais show for the kids.

The thing starts with the school.

International schools are just a tad cheaper than in Tokyo. Count on 15K US$ + per year.

Also, I understand those who are out of the farang game - retired, saved enough and moved to Thai or just ended up there in some way. They have to rationalize their situation.

I'll be still in the workforce when my daughter graduates from the Uni, she would have native Thai, English and near native Japanese.

Just for the sake of the argument, how would a child who attended the best school in Nakhon Nowhere compete with someone who graduated from not Harward or simillar, but just from Sydney University?

[OldAsiaHand]

A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious? Is he suggesting that pulling your children down to the lowest rungs of society will serve them well as they grow into adults? My God. It seems to me that your children deserve a great deal more than Isaan if you are able to give it to them.

Yes I am very serious. Pulling them down to the lowest rungs of society - what &lt;deleted&gt;.

We don't live in rural Issan, we live in a large city - Khon Kaen.

If you are thinking of sending your kids to an International school, I suggest hangin out Major Cineplex Ekkamai and witness the type of reject that they churn out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of &lt;deleted&gt;.....

Why is it that so many otherwise serious discussions on this board ends with these social drop-outs sneering their abuse at those who are more successful than they are?

The fact is that some of the international schools in Thailand are competitive with the best schools anywhere in the world -- not as good as the very best in the US and Europe perhaps, but at least seriously competitive. Dismissing the kids who are fortunate enough to attend these school as 'rejects' is both ignorant and offensive.

Stay in Khon Kaen. You probably feel like a king there. But for Christ's sake, don't wish the same kind of small-minded, provincial stupidity on your children.

Edited December 8, 2005 by OldAsiaHand

[greenwanderer108]

Good discussion!

I'm also expecting early next year (March-April) and have been contemplating this topic a lot lately..I definately don't want to spend a long time in Bangkok. Unfortunately, my work is here. If the work was just teaching, I wouldn't hesitate to relocate to the provinces, but it's journalism for a student magazine, so it demands me to be in Bkk. I'll give it a year or two, but definately plan to relocate out of the smog/traffic life.

So it seems that atleast the first year or two, my child will have grow up in Bangkok, unfortunately but we'll definately get him/her out as much as possible within the time period. i.e. trips to the relatives in lopburi, Nakhon Sawan, and Phuket.

When the child gets old enough for school, I am certain that I don't want the kid growing up in the big city. I want my child to be in a place where he/she can climb trees, swim in ponds/rivers, catch frogs, all the stuff that I cherished as a kid.

But certainly not the spoiled city kid throwing crying fits for the latest toys at Central or Big C, trying to compete with the rest of the neighborhood kids on who has the best toys...

So, in that sense, growing up in the country can do a lot more for one's imagination than growing up in the city. City kids buy the latest toys, country kids make their own toys...

Lots to think about as far as the education goes. There are lots of worthy English programs in each provincial school (โรงเรียนประจำจังหวัด) that are a fraction the cost of these international schools. Perhaps, I can cop out Thai style, and send the kid to grow up with the mother in law in Phuket. Then, he/she won't get the language benefit from me

lots to consider...

[greenwanderer108]

A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious? Is he suggesting that pulling your children down to the lowest rungs of society will serve them well as they grow into adults? My God. It seems to me that your children deserve a great deal more than Isaan if you are able to give it to them.

Yes I am very serious. Pulling them down to the lowest rungs of society - what &lt;deleted&gt;.

We don't live in rural Issan, we live in a large city - Khon Kaen.

If you are thinking of sending your kids to an International school, I suggest hangin out Major Cineplex Ekkamai and witness the type of reject that they churn out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of &lt;deleted&gt;.....

Why is it that so many otherwise serious discussions on this board ends with these social drop-outs sneering their abuse at those who are more successful than they are?

The fact is that some of the international schools in Thailand are competitive with the best schools anywhere in the world -- not as good as the very best in the US and Europe perhaps, but at least seriously competitive. Dismissing the kids who are fortunate enough to attend these school as 'rejects' is both ignorant and offensive.

Stay in Khon Kaen. You probably feel like a king there. But for Christ's sake, don't wish the same kind of small-minded, provincial stupidity on your children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you suggesting, that any international school education in Bangkok is better than an education in the provinces?? I don't think I can agree with this..

I think what's most important is the values and examples that the parent raises the child initially in the home, continuing home-education while he/she is in school--whether it be in an expensive wealthy private school, or a local government school in the provinces.

It seems that a lot of these parents who send their kids to Intl. schools put all the pressure on the schools to work magic on their child..which is what I want to avoid.

BTW, Khon Khaen is a pretty developed modern city, without all the smog/traffic of Bangkok. Have you been there lately?

[Belfastboy]

thanks for all the replies guys...very much appreciated.....

im not really worried about the education side of things ...as i say prob 4 -5 years in bkk then home to UK for a stable education...not just school but life education outside of thailand.

was also wondering as i read many of the replies...how many of the people with negative comments have thai partners?

would be interesting to know...as surely with my wife being from bkk and her family based there as well, this wud in fact be benifical to childminding...loving thai family etc...

i agree bangkok isnt the perfect place...but hey we have a business here in the UK which can fund our stay there..so i see many weekends in phuket...chiang mai..pattaya..hua hin...etc...even singapore etc..

but bangkok is very western....would never dream of going in to the thai outback..god forbid...kohn kaen may be lovely ...but hey if i wanted that much of a rural liflestyle i wud go to borneo or somewhere..lol...no offence

no i see ourselves...based in bangkok but with a holiday home in phuket ...cant wait..

as for places to live in bkk? any suggestions....thong lor is pretty nice...and someone mentioned a large moo bann out near the don muang airport especially for expats....anyone know of this place?

[Boo]

What alot of snobs there are, can u afford to send your kids to a good private school in your own country? i doubt most of you could. Many thai people manage to be successfull without the benefit of a private school education & some of them are even educated at thai school in the sticks. Imagine that, intelligent thai children not having the benefit of a 15k USD per year education. Amazing.

But I didn't realise how many upper class farang were living in the Kingdom. Please tell me, how was your time at private school in your own country?

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-12-08 10:47:40)

QUOTE

A post prior to this, for example, suggests that it is wonderful to raise your children in rural Isaan. Can the poster really be serious? Is he suggesting that pulling your children down to the lowest rungs of society will serve them well as they grow into adults? My God. It seems to me that your children deserve a great deal more than Isaan if you are able to give it to them.

Yes I am very serious. Pulling them down to the lowest rungs of society - what &lt;deleted&gt;.

We don't live in rural Issan, we live in a large city - Khon Kaen.

If you are thinking of sending your kids to an International school, I suggest hangin out Major Cineplex Ekkamai and witness the type of reject that they churn out.

*

Speaking of &lt;deleted&gt;.....

Why is it that so many otherwise serious discussions on this board ends with these social drop-outs sneering their abuse at those who are more successful than they are?

The fact is that some of the international schools in Thailand are competitive with the best schools anywhere in the world -- not as good as the very best in the US and Europe perhaps, but at least seriously competitive. Dismissing the kids who are fortunate enough to attend these school as 'rejects' is both ignorant and offensive.

Stay in Khon Kaen. You probably feel like a king there. But for Christ's sake, don't wish the same kind of small-minded, provincial stupidity on your children.

So you were serious!

Khon Kaen does not have a small-minded, provincial stupidity.

I have known many kids from international schools in Bangkok, over many years - taught them maths, many friends' kids, and my friends. My experience is that if I had the money I might send them there but might not. MOST of the ones who are mixed Thai farang totally reject their Thai birthrights- is this a good thing?. They look down on the Thai kids, and any of the Isaan......... well just don't get invited into their trendy little groups. The farnag kids don't have a clue where they are from, moving from one country to another. Drugs and booze seem to be as big as many of the government schools and worse than most private Thai schools. I am putting my kids into a bi-lingual school.

What have you added to this thread that is on topic? Did your kids like being brought up in Thailand? Please tell your experience.

My experience is that kids who have been to good Thai schools, then on to universities here or abroad are much more like I would wish mine to turn out. not the spoied brats that think they deserve the world without doing anything.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Neeranam

[Belfastboy]

What alot of snobs there are, can u afford to send your kids to a good private school in your own country? i doubt most of you could. Many thai people manage to be successfull without the benefit of a private school education & some of them are even educated at thai school in the sticks. Imagine that, intelligent thai children not having the benefit of a 15k USD per year education. Amazing. 

But I didn't realise how many upper class farang were living in the Kingdom. Please tell me, how was your time at private school in your own country?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

why are u classed a snob just because u can afford private education for your kid??

if u can afford it ...go for it... iknow i would...

but my thinking is that u can get a better education in the UK for FREE..!!

[solo siam]

Dont know about that, The UK is so PC now, any sort of competetiveness is looked down upon, schools and classes cater mainly to the lower denominator.

Phuket has some good schools, Including a Montessori school which I have been looking into - I personally really like the way they teach but personally I think most learning takes place at home.

[Boo]

I never said that sending your child to private school made anyone a snob but mocking others who don't or can't afford it, is being a snob.

[phuketsiam]

but do the schools get bombed in the UK?

Edited December 8, 2005 by phuketsiam