Why So Cynical?

[Suradit69]

I have to agree with the OP here, Thaivisa (news and general forums at least) create huge amounts of cynical comments.

The thing that seems to be so aggravating about the negativity on this and other boards is that many of the writers seem to think the problems they are carping about only exist in Thailand and that back in Heaven-on-Earth (i.e. their own countries) all things are wonderful.

There are good and corrupt police, politicians, business persons, et al. everywhere. Politicians talk nonsense everywhere and make election promises they'll never honor. Some police are out for bribes in every country on earth. The media is biased and gets things screwed up everywhere, with the additional issue here that things misquoted in Thai get further screwed up when poorly translated into English.

And, since most of the carping seems to come from those of European extraction, the same people who brought you several world wars and a recent worldwide economic meltdown, as well as racist colonialism, the suggestion that Thailand should adopt Western standards is laughable.

There are frustrations and problems in Thailand, but not nearly as many as the perpetual whiners suggest and most of the whiners are really not qualified to comment on "facts" that they and their friends manufacture on bar stools.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Suradit69

[onionluke]

Its all the people who won't let me form my opinion that make me cynical, telling me what I should think, what kind of opinion I can have. I'd be quite happy if I could just be my usual sardonic, cynical self. Surely that's all that we all want?

I get a bit fed up with people asking so many stupid questions, as well. You're not bloody Magnus Magnusson, and you never will be. Anyway, I'm not a mastermind, so I think I'll pass on this question...

And another thing. Look at these shoes. They cost me six times what I paid for the last pair, so they'd better last more than a few months. Anyway, you can't go wrong with shoes from Nottingham, even if they were made in Vietnam

SC

Surely cobblers in Northampton would be better ?

You're quite right, but as I found out, they're from Somerset in any case.

Read - Learn - Post is better than

Post - Learn - Edit...

SC

Edit: Just goes to show - I don't know cobblers...

Whilst we're talking cobblers, as I was following up the research on my previous post, I happened to notice that Dr Martens are made in Thailand, and that they have also resumed production in Northampton, for all the cynics that say British manufacturing is dead... and that made me pine wistfully for my ten-hole cherry reds that I wore when I was much younger than I am today. Used to take longer to lace them up than to cycle down to the paper shop, except in the winter when I would fall off my bike on the ice at the cross-roads at the foot of the hill. The joys of being up before the gritters...

[farang000999]

they need to make a specific room on here just for people who want to complain that others complain too much. we have had this topic only a 100 times so far.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Question should be "in this age of Information, why are there still some people left with hope and optimism? Bloody idjits"

[dannyman]

GO GUY 'S

[IAMHERE]

I highly doubt the OP will bother reading the replies.

[ravip]

:-)

Actually, a cynic is someone who moans constantly but never does anything about anything and is determined to stay that way. Someone who's jaded hasn't lost the will to change, they've just lost the means. Scratch the surface of a cynic and you'll find someone who simply doesn't have any answers. Polish the surface of a jaded person and you'll find they'll come up good as new.

R Cooper, Twickenham

There are two equilibria – the people who fail become cynical about their experience, which helps them cope, and the people who succeed are idealistic, because we want to believe the best in others and they’re successful anyway so they can say whatever they want.

[WunMoneyBunny]

(01)...I think cynicism is just a Western form of wit, especially with Brits & Ozzies who "love to take the piss" (yes, I am one)!

(02)...It's difficult however, not to be cynical for a purpose other than humour, when analysing certain asinine regulations, especially when they unnecessarily affect the lives of literally thousand of foreigners who reside in LOS. Not that I'm suggesting that there aren't some equally ridiculous laws back in one's own home country. A particular favourite of mine, as you may have noticed from past posts, is the Thai Immigration Office (TIO) 90-day reporting regulation. Allow me to prove my point by being analytically cynical yet again.

(03)...In a reasonably recent forum (www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/486830-90-day-reporting-why/ dated 2011-07-30), the following statement was posted:

(03a).........#40Tao: "Last year, I asked a senior official at IMMO/Bkk why they required the 90-day report. She said that it was needed "in case the foreigner has a problem...." My interpretation is that they wanted to be able to track you down if you were on some "wanted" list."

(04)...My immediate thoughts were that this is one of the few, if not the only potentially legitimate explanation that I've seen posted for the "reason" for the 90-day report. I stress "reason" for the 90-day report, rather than the laws or regulations that establish & enforce it. In the absence of any statement of which I am aware, from any official Thai policymaker as to the practical "reason" for such a policy, or any evidence that such a practical "reason" actually does or ever did exist, then it is worth analysing this senior official's statement.

(05)...Pardon my cynicism in this analysis, but the senior official's statement is so preposterous that it's hard not to be sceptical. Let me explain by asking some hypothetical questions.

(06)...Could this "wanted" list be a "security-threat wanted" list, because the immigrant/alien/foreigner involved has just been reported as being a nefarious individual, or has just "accidently" exploded a couple of bombs in Bangkok, & so should be put behind bars ASAP ("steel-type" bars that is, not "Pattaya-type")? Could that list be presented as: "Wanted for flying large a/c into tall buildings without official approval or ATC clearance"? If so, then does any law-abiding immigrant/alien/foreigner, or any supposedly well-meaning TIO official really believe that such a "wanted" individual would comply with the 90-day reporting regulations, or would provide an honest & correct address? I may be the one that's naive, but I strongly doubt it!

(07)...On the other hand, any law-abiding immigrant/alien/foreigner could be on a "non-threatening wanted" list because for example, he/she should return to his/her home country immediately, owing to a critically ill member of the family. Here's another example: the law-abiding foreigner could be on a "non-threatening wanted" list because a benevolent but ailing Nigerian gentleman requires his/her bank account details immediately to enable the deposit of a very large sum of money before the Nigerian croaks. If that is the case, then the first place that the TIO authorities should & probably would contact is the foreigner's embassy or consulate, & leave the searching up to them. The foreigner is expected to keep his/her embassy informed for just such a purpose, but if the foreigner chooses to do otherwise, then he/she will suffer the consequences of not being contactable, not the TIO. "Bye bye never-to-be-seen-again NOK (sob)", or "Bye bye large sum of money (considerable sob)!"

(08)...I won't go on. I hope you get my point on the analytical use of cynicism. I also hope that the good lopburi3, or some other fine Global Moderator, does not consider this to be an off-topic rant, & condemn it to the small, round filing cabinet in the corner.

[F1fanatic]

I have to agree with the OP here, Thaivisa (news and general forums at least) create huge amounts of cynical comments.

The thing that seems to be so aggravating about the negativity on this and other boards is that many of the writers seem to think the problems they are carping about only exist in Thailand and that back in Heaven-on-Earth (i.e. their own countries) all things are wonderful.

There are good and corrupt police, politicians, business persons, et al. everywhere. Politicians talk nonsense everywhere and make election promises they'll never honor. Some police are out for bribes in every country on earth. The media is biased and gets things screwed up everywhere, with the additional issue here that things misquoted in Thai get further screwed up when poorly translated into English.

And, since most of the carping seems to come from those of European extraction, the same people who brought you several world wars and a recent worldwide economic meltdown, as well as racist colonialism, the suggestion that Thailand should adopt Western standards is laughable.

There are frustrations and problems in Thailand, but not nearly as many as the perpetual whiners suggest and most of the whiners are really not qualified to comment on "facts" that they and their friends manufacture on bar stools.

I agree that all politicians need to be ignored - they just say whatever they think will win them votes and are as corrupt as the international businesses (from whom they either have 'consultancies' and non-exec directorships, or intend to get them once they leave office, as they have been so 'helpful').

Thank you for pointing out though that the 2 World Wars were entirely due to Europe - as I had previously thought the US only actually 'joined in' when they were attacked by the Japanese. As for the recent financial crisis being the fault of Europe.... Yes, Europe has/had deep problems - a bit like the US.

[StreetCowboy]

I have to agree with the OP here, Thaivisa (news and general forums at least) create huge amounts of cynical comments.

The thing that seems to be so aggravating about the negativity on this and other boards is that many of the writers seem to think the problems they are carping about only exist in Thailand and that back in Heaven-on-Earth (i.e. their own countries) all things are wonderful.

There are good and corrupt police, politicians, business persons, et al. everywhere. Politicians talk nonsense everywhere and make election promises they'll never honor. Some police are out for bribes in every country on earth. The media is biased and gets things screwed up everywhere, with the additional issue here that things misquoted in Thai get further screwed up when poorly translated into English.

And, since most of the carping seems to come from those of European extraction, the same people who brought you several world wars and a recent worldwide economic meltdown, as well as racist colonialism, the suggestion that Thailand should adopt Western standards is laughable.

There are frustrations and problems in Thailand, but not nearly as many as the perpetual whiners suggest and most of the whiners are really not qualified to comment on "facts" that they and their friends manufacture on bar stools.

I agree that all politicians need to be ignored - they just say whatever they think will win them votes and are as corrupt as the international businesses (from whom they either have 'consultancies' and non-exec directorships, or intend to get them once they leave office, as they have been so 'helpful').

Thank you for pointing out though that the 2 World Wars were entirely due to Europe - as I had previously thought the US only actually 'joined in' when they were attacked by the Japanese. As for the recent financial crisis being the fault of Europe.... Yes, Europe has/had deep problems - a bit like the US.

I don't really think that you can separate the US and Europe. Although many of the inhabitants may be descended from Africans, and a few from indigenous peoples, culturally, it is a Western European anglo-saxon nation, even if it is located elsewhere; just like Australia...

It always surprises me that people are so ready to condemn others on the grounds of their profession - whether they be politicians, policemen or bankers, based on the behaviour of a few villains when they themselves, and their fellow posters, are all such pictures of moral rectitude.

Some time ago I realised that there were people elsewhere who were bnigger, stronger, smarter, more ethical than myself, and many of those people were successful. I learnt the difference between scepticism and cynicism; not to assume that others were selfish, corrupt or dishonest, but to accept the possibility that they might be...

SC

[theblether]

I have to agree with the OP here, Thaivisa (news and general forums at least) create huge amounts of cynical comments.

The thing that seems to be so aggravating about the negativity on this and other boards is that many of the writers seem to think the problems they are carping about only exist in Thailand and that back in Heaven-on-Earth (i.e. their own countries) all things are wonderful.

There are good and corrupt police, politicians, business persons, et al. everywhere. Politicians talk nonsense everywhere and make election promises they'll never honor. Some police are out for bribes in every country on earth. The media is biased and gets things screwed up everywhere, with the additional issue here that things misquoted in Thai get further screwed up when poorly translated into English.

And, since most of the carping seems to come from those of European extraction, the same people who brought you several world wars and a recent worldwide economic meltdown, as well as racist colonialism, the suggestion that Thailand should adopt Western standards is laughable.

There are frustrations and problems in Thailand, but not nearly as many as the perpetual whiners suggest and most of the whiners are really not qualified to comment on "facts" that they and their friends manufacture on bar stools.

I agree that all politicians need to be ignored - they just say whatever they think will win them votes and are as corrupt as the international businesses (from whom they either have 'consultancies' and non-exec directorships, or intend to get them once they leave office, as they have been so 'helpful').

Thank you for pointing out though that the 2 World Wars were entirely due to Europe - as I had previously thought the US only actually 'joined in' when they were attacked by the Japanese. As for the recent financial crisis being the fault of Europe.... Yes, Europe has/had deep problems - a bit like the US.

I don't really think that you can separate the US and Europe. Although many of the inhabitants may be descended from Africans, and a few from indigenous peoples, culturally, it is a Western European anglo-saxon nation, even if it is located elsewhere; just like Australia...

It always surprises me that people are so ready to condemn others on the grounds of their profession - whether they be politicians, policemen or bankers, based on the behaviour of a few villains when they themselves, and their fellow posters, are all such pictures of moral rectitude.

Some time ago I realised that there were people elsewhere who were bnigger, stronger, smarter, more ethical than myself, and many of those people were successful. I learnt the difference between scepticism and cynicism; not to assume that others were selfish, corrupt or dishonest, but to accept the possibility that they might be...

SC

SC your trying to deny people their right to be Self Righteous, and you can't be doing that. You see the people who are most Self Righteous are the same one's that have gone through their lives being Most Wrongness, their every opinion is entrenched way beyond the scope of reasonable argument, mainly because they don't have the ability to reason and argue constructively.

Typified by this guy

[StreetCowboy]

...

SC your trying to deny people their right to be Self Righteous, and you can't be doing that. You see the people who are most Self Righteous are the same one's that have gone through their lives being Most Wrongness, their every opinion is entrenched way beyond the scope of reasonable argument, mainly because they don't have the ability to reason and argue constructively.

...

I feel that I have been blessed by a sad inability to make jokes, and so I have had to laugh at the antics of others and the entertaining haps and mishaps (misterhaps?) that I have encountered as I wind the turns of this mortal coil. When one can laugh at the sad ironies or coincidences more frustrating than serendipitous, then it is hard to sustain one's pernicious prejudices against one's fellows and their entertaining foibles and follies.

All I can say is thank goodness for a good lexicon and some minutes of leisure in which to make use of it

SC

[farang000999]

Isn't it funny when you read Thai Visa and anytime someone mentions their gf/wife/personal situation they must first, right at the beginning, clarlify that she wasn't a prostitute?

[theblether]

...

SC your trying to deny people their right to be Self Righteous, and you can't be doing that. You see the people who are most Self Righteous are the same one's that have gone through their lives being Most Wrongness, their every opinion is entrenched way beyond the scope of reasonable argument, mainly because they don't have the ability to reason and argue constructively.

...

I feel that I have been blessed by a sad inability to make jokes, and so I have had to laugh at the antics of others and the entertaining haps and mishaps (misterhaps?) that I have encountered as I wind the turns of this mortal coil. When one can laugh at the sad ironies or coincidences more frustrating than serendipitous, then it is hard to sustain one's pernicious prejudices against one's fellows and their entertaining foibles and follies.

All I can say is thank goodness for a good lexicon and some minutes of leisure in which to make use of it

SC

Serendipity?...shock development!!

Anyway, don't worry, I think your funny , even though I usually have to get a thesaurus to help work out your posts.

[StreetCowboy]

...

SC your trying to deny people their right to be Self Righteous, and you can't be doing that. You see the people who are most Self Righteous are the same one's that have gone through their lives being Most Wrongness, their every opinion is entrenched way beyond the scope of reasonable argument, mainly because they don't have the ability to reason and argue constructively.

...

I feel that I have been blessed by a sad inability to make jokes, and so I have had to laugh at the antics of others and the entertaining haps and mishaps (misterhaps?) that I have encountered as I wind the turns of this mortal coil. When one can laugh at the sad ironies or coincidences more frustrating than serendipitous, then it is hard to sustain one's pernicious prejudices against one's fellows and their entertaining foibles and follies.

All I can say is thank goodness for a good lexicon and some minutes of leisure in which to make use of it

SC

Serendipity?...shock development!!

Anyway, don't worry, I think your funny , even though I usually have to get a thesaurus to help work out your posts.

Serendipity... I've many and oft been blessed with the ability to be in the right place at the right time - or at the very least not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It would restore my faith in God except that I would be appalled if He took an interest in such mundane and trivial affairs.

"I think your funny"

You'll be getting me one of those jackets with the buckles up the back...

SC

[anterian]

I get very cynical about TV when just getting into a good argument, the whole lot gets deleted as "off topic", any good debate goes off down side issues, that's part of the fun.

[StreetCowboy]

I get very cynical about TV when just getting into a good argument, the whole lot gets deleted as "off topic", any good debate goes off down side issues, that's part of the fun.

No it isn't

Edited February 26, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[GuestHouse]

Honesty

Thais are taught it is OK to lie, they do it often, for many reasons

Western CV, are taught to never lie, it is bad

Morality

Thais don't have any problems with casual sex, even if they are married

Western CV, sex is always bad, a married person who has sex outside marriage is a bad person

I actually think those two Thai values are much more sensible than the WCV way.

You should put this to the test by allowing your Thai wife/girlfriend catch you out lying to her about where you have been and what you have been up to, followed by her finding out that you've been shagging another woman.

You'll very quickly learn the reality that seems at this moment to allude you.

Edited February 26, 2012 by GuestHouse

[theblether]

I get very cynical about TV when just getting into a good argument, the whole lot gets deleted as "off topic", any good debate goes off down side issues, that's part of the fun.

I agree

[transam]

I get very cynical about TV when just getting into a good argument, the whole lot gets deleted as "off topic", any good debate goes off down side issues, that's part of the fun.

No it isn't

A Mod and a member eh.

[GuestHouse]

You show a perfect example of the cynical approach to any implementation of values that does not match your own expectation...........we do not live in a world of perfect values, honesty, equality, and adherence to a set status of social values. Poverty can easily change social values, war can certainly influence social values, is it right or wrong to steal if you are hungry........I place survival before the badge of honesty, for some that may well be a daily challenge..........and you can't see why there would be a variation in an individual priorities regarding the status of these social values?......perhaps there is a case that social values should apply to those who can afford to follow them....and if there are whole populations that have evolved through a differing order of social values, rather than condemn, you may wish to look into why

You appear to have travelled far and wide with a very closed mind

T

Then you'd have to explain the fact why peoples living in extreme environments, Deserts, Arctic Areas, Remote Islands, High Mountain Areas etc have developed cultures in which social sharing of resources holds such high position in the social values of these peoples. A cultural rule of hospitality and providing food, water and shelter to strangers is a common theme across these peoples living on the edge of survivability.

Indeed I have traveled far and wide, my mind has been closed to the idea that I have the answer to how we must live, and I've always been surprised that there are common themes of honesty, hospitality, personal integrity and honour that are found across the cultures I've lived and worked with.

Common Human Values.

The world by direct on the ground observation, not from behind a keyboard.

Edited February 26, 2012 by GuestHouse

[theblether]

I get very cynical about TV when just getting into a good argument, the whole lot gets deleted as "off topic", any good debate goes off down side issues, that's part of the fun.

No it isn't

A Mod and a member eh.

The argument part of that sketch was pure genius, after that it went downhill.

[473geo]

You show a perfect example of the cynical approach to any implementation of values that does not match your own expectation...........we do not live in a world of perfect values, honesty, equality, and adherence to a set status of social values. Poverty can easily change social values, war can certainly influence social values, is it right or wrong to steal if you are hungry........I place survival before the badge of honesty, for some that may well be a daily challenge..........and you can't see why there would be a variation in an individual priorities regarding the status of these social values?......perhaps there is a case that social values should apply to those who can afford to follow them....and if there are whole populations that have evolved through a differing order of social values, rather than condemn, you may wish to look into why

You appear to have travelled far and wide with a very closed mind

T

Then you'd have to explain the fact why peoples living in extreme environments, Deserts, Arctic Areas, Remote Islands, High Mountain Areas etc have developed cultures in which social sharing of resources holds such high position in the social values of these peoples. A cultural rule of hospitality and providing food, water and shelter to strangers is a common theme across these peoples living on the edge of survivability.

Indeed I have traveled far and wide, my mind has been closed to the idea that I have the answer to how we must live, and I've always been surprised that there are common themes of honesty, hospitality, personal integrity and honour that are found across the cultures I've lived and worked with.

Common Human Values.

The world by direct on the ground observation, not from behind a keyboard.

I disagree, you will find your common values are shared by those whose purpose it suits, when it suits, as I have said

Thou shalt not kill........................need I say more.........

I will be interested to know if you have travelled the world on hospitalty........with no funds to support you and thus received this glowing impression of hospitality and support.

Edited February 26, 2012 by 473geo

[GuestHouse]

I disagree, you will find your common values are shared by those whose purpose it suits, when it suits, as I have said

Thou shalt not kill........................need I say more.........

I will be interested to know if you have travelled the world on hospitalty........with no funds to support you and thus received this glowing impression of hospitality and support.

I've travelled from a shoestring budget, backpacking/cycling and I've travelled on the full expat deal.

And you, how far and wide have you travelled, how many countries have you lived in/worked in?

[ludditeman]

You should put this to the test by allowing your Thai wife/girlfriend catch you out lying to her about where you have been and what you have been up to, followed by her finding out that you've been shagging another woman.

You'll very quickly learn the reality that seems at this moment to allude you.

I think you mean ELUDE (see http://www.dailywritingtips.com/elude-vs-allude-vs-illude/)

Anyway the whole trick to lying (Thai style) is to never admit to lying no matter how silly the lie was, and no matter how badly you were caught out.

[473geo]

You show a perfect example of the cynical approach to any implementation of values that does not match your own expectation...........we do not live in a world of perfect values, honesty, equality, and adherence to a set status of social values. Poverty can easily change social values, war can certainly influence social values, is it right or wrong to steal if you are hungry........I place survival before the badge of honesty, for some that may well be a daily challenge..........and you can't see why there would be a variation in an individual priorities regarding the status of these social values?......perhaps there is a case that social values should apply to those who can afford to follow them....and if there are whole populations that have evolved through a differing order of social values, rather than condemn, you may wish to look into why

You appear to have travelled far and wide with a very closed mind

T

Then you'd have to explain the fact why peoples living in extreme environments, Deserts, Arctic Areas, Remote Islands, High Mountain Areas etc have developed cultures in which social sharing of resources holds such high position in the social values of these peoples. A cultural rule of hospitality and providing food, water and shelter to strangers is a common theme across these peoples living on the edge of survivability.

Indeed I have traveled far and wide, my mind has been closed to the idea that I have the answer to how we must live, and I've always been surprised that there are common themes of honesty, hospitality, personal integrity and honour that are found across the cultures I've lived and worked with.

Common Human Values.

The world by direct on the ground observation, not from behind a keyboard.

In which case the countries you have visited will require no laws but live by their social values.......unless as I have previously stated those that can afford to carry social values........perhaps your comment woud indicate that also on the edge of survival maybe there is no option but to adhere to the common theme.....Thus in Thailand the Thai adhere to their way too, tea money is their way of supporting their own hospitality, as they accept this structure there is no question of integrity or honour........

It is the cynic that cannot accept the Thai way as a social norm that has the issue

Edited February 26, 2012 by 473geo

[farang000999]

Don't forget, you can always join the monkhood for a month to repent all sins.

[473geo]

I disagree, you will find your common values are shared by those whose purpose it suits, when it suits, as I have said

Thou shalt not kill........................need I say more.........

I will be interested to know if you have travelled the world on hospitalty........with no funds to support you and thus received this glowing impression of hospitality and support.

I've travelled from a shoestring budget, backpacking/cycling and I've travelled on the full expat deal.

And you, how far and wide have you travelled, how many countries have you lived in/worked in?

Oh rest assured I have travelled......sometimes on a shoestring sometimes not.....I have experienced expat life, I have work experience in many countries

I cycled around the north of Thailand a few years ago, indeed I found generousity, hospitality, and honesty........all in this country I am now expected to believe is corrupt to the core.....what is more this hospitality, honesty, and integrity was largely provided by the RTP.

[GuestHouse]

In which case the countries you have visited will require no laws but live by their social values.......unless as I have previously stated those that can afford to carry social values........perhaps your comment woud indicate that also on the edge of survival maybe there is no option but to adhere to the common theme.....Thus in Thailand the Thai adhere to their way too, tea money is their way of supporting their own hospitality, as they accept this structure there is no question of integrity or honour........ It is the cynic that cannot accept the Thai way as a social norm that has the issue

Actually this is true of all societies.

Walk around the shopping mall, take a stroll through town, look around the work place. Extremely small numbers of people break the law. The vast majority do not. They adhere to the common values which bind societies.

You have of course observed this during your own wide and varied travels.

Edited February 26, 2012 by GuestHouse

[ludditeman]

Walk around the shopping mall, take a stroll through town, look around the work place. Extremely small numbers of people break the law. The vast majority do not. They adhere to the common values which bind societies.

You are now confusing 'the law' (a governmental concept) with 'morality and honesty' (a religious concept)

Two entirely different concepts, you can be completely immoral and dishonest (by whatever standards) without breaking any laws.

You can also 'break the law' while still firmly adhering to your ideas of 'honesty and morality'.

Of course your ideas of honesty are a little mixed up as you appear to consider 'theft' and 'lying' as the same game.

Having a similar background to you, I also confuse these two things, while an ounce of thought allows me to see the difference.

Clearly trying to convince you the sky was green, is not in the same ballpark as stealing your car.

Edited February 26, 2012 by ludditeman