Why Thailand Focuses On Face.

[jamman]

Here is more thought on cultural differences. It’s neither complex nor a light read, so if you have ever used the word pseudo-intellectual this might not be a fun post for you. Writing stuff like this is one way I really get my kicks though - its fun to think about stuff, and I never know what I really think until I write it down.

A reader asked me to speculate as to why Asian society places less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake and places more value on practical matters that relate to status than western societies. In this http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1316.htm article I considered there are more people in Asia with underdeveloped egos than in the west. People aren’t forced by their parents, teachers, and peers, to be rigidly truthful, to develop a strong personal character, quite the opposite. Students are encouraged not to make waves, to idly listen and parrot, to use other people’s work and to cheat on tests. Pointing out faults in others, even criticizing their ideas is regarded negatively. When there isn’t social pressure to be carefully considerate in ones logical arguments and carefully introspective and on guard for personal faults, a rich structure resting on honesty, openness, creativity, truth and social concern can’t develop. As long as face holds higher value than personal development, the culture is doomed to backwardness, stuck in adolescence.

The whole society has a fundamental flaw, at the root - all aims are towards status. More people in the west have as their aims the joys of their pursuits, not merely the joys of the fruits of their pursuits as status. More of us read for enjoyment as respect for the value of truth, more collect varied music or study art history or take five minutes to consider a sea shell for the joys and value of beauty. More of us consider our fellows when we choose how loud should be our motorcycle muffler for the value of moral social engagement. The value system is flawed in Asia, and this aborts the development of the individual and therefore the society. Concern for face is an adolescent phase that denies growth, because status is seen as more beneficial than making required mistakes and painful admissions of faults and confronting others. People have to be free to make fools of themselves to take off the straightjacket of unconsidered and inconsiderate values. It is a necessary part of growing up. Asia has tied itself down with its continued emphasis on social harmony through respect for face. In Canada you are free to criticize openly and publicly, and this friction leads to greater and greater inquiry and expression, and personal development, and all the advances that rest on those.

But stating the problem doesn’t answer the question of why it is this way. Why the culture is stuck in adolescence. Traditional European culture has placed much more emphasis on status than the New World cultures in North America, famous for individuality. North American cultural influence has been huge, we trade much with Europe, and together the movements towards a marriage of a European socialism and an American individualism is evolving in both continents. Asia is still basically feudal. Indonesia is basically owned by a few family interests. In Thailand connections are more important than skills. The social bonds and social climbing are more pragmatic and necessary here - you have to choose your allegiances and guard your image carefully. I see the emphasis on social bonds on the one hand or individuality on the other as a spectrum from Asia, to Europe, then the New World countries of the U.S., Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Obviously we need a marriage of these spectrums, keeping our respect for social bonds, while growing into greater and greater individuality.

Asia puts more emphasis on face due to inertia and lack of social revolution. Europe had its renaissance and the overthrowing of Monarchies, America had constitutional democratic revolution, then its Vietnam War protests, its feminist movement. Cultural inertias were overcome by grand political movements. Even the Copernican revolution in thought was partly political - the state, which was not separated from religion at the time, nearly killed the guy for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. It isn’t safe to have grand political movements in Asia - you could be shot. If you criticize a businessman in the press, you could be shot. If you criticize the culture openly, you could suffer severe consequences. I don’t know what precipitates social revolutions, but Asia hasn’t had theirs yet. There is no counter culture, and starting one could be dangerous. Without one, inertia will remain, as social and political revolution may be the only way for evolution on this society-wide scale.

A society needs capitalism as its base - individuals free to choose their own methods of competing for resources, motivated in good measure by selfish ends. And on top of that it needs structured rules of social interactions - government and laws and state organization. The general people have to be involved in their governments in order for both capitalism and socialism to work. Without that corruption turns the state into a collection of family interests - it becomes a more feudal society with the rich land barons and their serfs. The U.S. is quickly going in that direction, and at the same time becoming more materialistic, but Asia was always feudal. General and sophisticated political awareness and discussion seems a key to social change. Some dissatisfaction will need to be sufficient to rally people for change and to empower them to be active in their own governance before face will loose its tremendous power. If democratic lawful self governance is not possible, then you need connections for power, and connections are largely about allegiances and cultivating your image. The cultural heroes will remain the well connected. The road to success will stunt real success, as status alone is a hollow and alienated aim.

Enough people have to be dissatisfied enough with the current state of affairs and feel empowered enough that they can band together and make a political change in order to overcome the barrier to conflict that face imposes. Once rebels are seen as heroes, people can have role models that then stress a value other than status, and personal development is then freed from the straightjacket of adolescent concern with image. Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr. were partial inventors of the individual, in society. Before such grand rebels and revolutionaries, we accepted our place in our feudal society, did not look the King in the eye, and watched our image closely.

The power of inertia will keep Asia focused on face until there is strong enough dissatisfaction for social systems such as schooling or religion or women’s rights or mafia style corruption or under-regulated individual and corporate pollution, or labor rights, to start open public debate and criticism and reform. Without rebels as heroes with real social and political power, it’s safer to play cover tunes than make a new musical style. Better to fit in and not buck the system.

We don’t even have to think about these things in the west. We grew up taking for granted the courage of our heroes. Asia doesn’t have such heroes yet, and doesn’t know that it doesn’t have them.

The spirit of National Public Radio and Public Television in the U.S. is reformist, plus there is strong civic spirit of taking delight in the community of ideas for their own sake. It takes as its premise for being that public communication freed from commercial interest will be fuller and richer, less restricted by political and business interests, less a dumbed down sideshow of titillating sensationalism and the top 40 experience, and is a required part of a healthy society. Canada has the CBC and Britain has the Beeb - both publicly funded radio shows of very high quality. No one gets shot for expressing controversial or damaging views. Listening to them makes you feel part of an informed caring community, and is fun.

Any city without a café or bar that has open mike night for storytelling, poetry readings and music is a city missing a strong sense of community of spirit. We tell each other our stories, and that makes us connected and alive and growing. If people aren’t reading or writing, participating in culture, the culture is backwards.

I’d speculate that any society with few reformist heroes and little public involvement in government will suffer a similar poverty of the soul, and would be curious to hear from folks familiar with Arab countries what’s going on there. In communities with the greatest public involvement I’d expect to see the greatest attentions paid to the arts, truth (scientific, philosophical, meditative, psychological), and morals. San Francisco and Boulder Colorado come to mind.

I didn’t read that theory anywhere, it just occurred to me this moment. It sounds right, and I hope it gains me a lot of face.

[Jai Dee]

Geez jamman, didn't you get enough out of this thread on face?

This smells like troll bait...

Watch the replies please or this thread will be closed.

[Maigo6]

More of us consider our fellows when we choose how loud should be our motorcycle muffler for the value of moral social engagement.  The value system is flawed in Asia, and this aborts the development of the individual and therefore the society. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to wonder why you left your own country.

One trip to a city center on a Friday night in the UK after the pubs kick out will enlighten you as to how civilised and culturtal farangs are, compared with the backward Asians.

If being so wonderful and advanced creates the problems that you now have in the West, then you can keep all that advancement and perfection, jeez, I think you guys need to look at what is happening in Europe, then tell me Europe is so good.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Maigo6

[Boon Mee]

"The power of inertia will keep Asia focused on face until there is strong enough dissatisfaction for social systems such as schooling or religion or women’s rights or mafia style corruption or under-regulated individual and corporate pollution, or labor rights, to start open public debate and criticism and reform."

Their social systems have been around a lot longer that 'ours' so I'd have to say time is on their side...

[girlx]

i haven't had time to read through this whole post yet, but my immediate question is what about Japan, which has the same concept of face but is much more advanced than Thailand?

[Maigo6]

i haven't had time to read through this whole post yet, but my immediate question is what about Japan, which has the same concept of face but is much more advanced than Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably much more socially advanced than most countries, not just thailand

[Noel]

Here is more thought on cultural differences.  It’s neither complex nor a light read, so if you have ever used the word pseudo-intellectual this might not be a fun post for you. <MEGA SNIP> 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the warning, not that I would have bothered reading your doubtless mind-numbingly boring, misguided and pretentious prose anyway.

Just keep trolling along jamman, if that's what makes you happy...

[Boon Mee]

This is a theme newbies (or Trolls) like to latch on to when first confronting Asia...

[Glauka]

Here is more thought on cultural differences.  It’s neither complex nor a light read, so if you have ever used the word pseudo-intellectual this might not be a fun post for you.  Writing stuff like this is one way I really get my kicks though - its fun to think about stuff, and I never know what I really think until I write it down.

A reader asked me to speculate as to why Asian society places less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake and places more value on practical matters that relate to status than western societies.  In this http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1316.htm article I considered there are more people in Asia with underdeveloped egos than in the west.  People aren’t forced by their parents, teachers, and peers, to be rigidly truthful, to develop a strong personal character, quite the opposite.  Students are encouraged not to make waves, to idly listen and parrot, to use other people’s work and to cheat on tests.  Pointing out faults in others, even criticizing their ideas is regarded negatively.  When there isn’t social pressure to be carefully considerate in ones logical arguments and carefully introspective and on guard for personal faults, a rich structure resting on honesty, openness, creativity, truth and social concern can’t develop.  As long as face holds higher value than personal development, the culture is doomed to backwardness, stuck in adolescence. 

The whole society has a fundamental flaw, at the root - all aims are towards status.  More people in the west have as their aims the joys of their pursuits, not merely the joys of the fruits of their pursuits as status.  More of us read for enjoyment as respect for the value of truth, more collect varied music or study art history or take five minutes to consider a sea shell for the joys and value of beauty.  More of us consider our fellows when we choose how loud should be our motorcycle muffler for the value of moral social engagement.  The value system is flawed in Asia, and this aborts the development of the individual and therefore the society.  Concern for face is an adolescent phase that denies growth, because status is seen as more beneficial than making required mistakes and painful admissions of faults and confronting others.  People have to be free to make fools of themselves to take off the straightjacket of unconsidered and inconsiderate values.  It is a necessary part of growing up.  Asia has tied itself down with its continued emphasis on social harmony through respect for face.  In Canada you are free to criticize openly and publicly, and this friction leads to greater and greater inquiry and expression, and personal development, and all the advances that rest on those.

But stating the problem doesn’t answer the question of why it is this way.  Why the culture is stuck in adolescence.  Traditional European culture has placed much more emphasis on status than the New World cultures in North America, famous for individuality.  North American cultural influence has been huge, we trade much with Europe, and together the movements towards a marriage of a European socialism and an American individualism is evolving in both continents.  Asia is still basically feudal. Indonesia is basically owned by a few family interests.  In Thailand connections are more important than skills.  The social bonds and social climbing are more pragmatic and necessary here - you have to choose your allegiances and guard your image carefully.  I see the emphasis on social bonds on the one hand or individuality on the other as a spectrum from Asia, to Europe, then the New World countries of the U.S., Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Obviously we need a marriage of these spectrums, keeping our respect for social bonds, while growing into greater and greater individuality. 

Asia puts more emphasis on face due to inertia and lack of social revolution.  Europe had its renaissance and the overthrowing of Monarchies, America had constitutional democratic revolution, then its Vietnam War protests, its feminist movement.  Cultural inertias were overcome by grand political movements.  Even the Copernican revolution in thought was partly political - the state, which was not separated from religion at the time, nearly killed the guy for saying that the earth revolved around the sun.  It isn’t safe to have grand political movements in Asia - you could be shot.  If you criticize a businessman in the press, you could be shot.  If you criticize the culture openly, you could suffer severe consequences.  I don’t know what precipitates social revolutions, but Asia hasn’t had theirs yet.  There is no counter culture, and starting one could be dangerous.  Without one, inertia will remain, as social and political revolution may be the only way for evolution on this society-wide scale. 

A society needs capitalism as its base - individuals free to choose their own methods of competing for resources, motivated in good measure by selfish ends.  And on top of that it needs structured rules of social interactions - government and laws and state organization.  The general people have to be involved in their governments in order for both capitalism and socialism to work.  Without that corruption turns the state into a collection of family interests - it becomes a more feudal society with the rich land barons and their serfs.  The U.S. is quickly going in that direction, and at the same time becoming more materialistic, but Asia was always feudal.  General and sophisticated political awareness and discussion seems a key to social change.  Some dissatisfaction will need to be sufficient to rally people for change and to empower them to be active in their own governance before face will loose its tremendous power.  If democratic lawful self governance is not possible, then you need connections for power, and connections are largely about allegiances and cultivating your image.  The cultural heroes will remain the well connected.  The road to success will stunt real success, as status alone is a hollow and alienated aim. 

Enough people have to be dissatisfied enough with the current state of affairs and feel empowered enough that they can band together and make a political change in order to overcome the barrier to conflict that face imposes.  Once rebels are seen as heroes, people can have role models that then stress a value other than status, and personal development is then freed from the straightjacket of adolescent concern with image.  Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr. were partial inventors of the individual, in society.  Before such grand rebels and revolutionaries, we accepted our place in our feudal society, did not look the King in the eye, and watched our image closely.

The power of inertia will keep Asia focused on face until there is strong enough dissatisfaction for social systems such as schooling or religion or women’s rights or mafia style corruption or under-regulated individual and corporate pollution, or labor rights, to start open public debate and criticism and reform.  Without rebels as heroes with real social and political power, it’s safer to play cover tunes than make a new musical style.  Better to fit in and not buck the system.

We don’t even have to think about these things in the west.  We grew up taking for granted the courage of our heroes.  Asia doesn’t have such heroes yet, and doesn’t know that it doesn’t have them. 

The spirit of National Public Radio and Public Television in the U.S. is reformist, plus there is strong civic spirit of taking delight in the community of ideas for their own sake.  It takes as its premise for being that public communication freed from commercial interest will be fuller and richer, less restricted by political and business interests, less a dumbed down sideshow of titillating sensationalism and the top 40 experience, and is a required part of a healthy society.  Canada has the CBC and Britain has the Beeb - both publicly funded radio shows of very high quality.  No one gets shot for expressing controversial or damaging views.  Listening to them makes you feel part of an informed caring community, and is fun.

Any city without a café or bar that has open mike night for storytelling, poetry readings and music is a city missing a strong sense of community of spirit.  We tell each other our stories, and that makes us connected and alive and growing.  If people aren’t reading or writing, participating in culture, the culture is backwards.

I’d speculate that any society with few reformist heroes and little public involvement in government will suffer a similar poverty of the soul, and would be curious to hear from folks familiar with Arab countries what’s going on there.  In communities with the greatest public involvement I’d expect to see the greatest attentions paid to the arts, truth (scientific, philosophical, meditative, psychological), and morals.  San Francisco and Boulder Colorado come to mind. 

I didn’t read that theory anywhere, it just occurred to me this moment.  It sounds right, and I hope it gains me a lot of face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WELL do you know what I like about Thailand people therefore culture that is lack in Europe?

1. People jobs are not the most important thing in their life therefore they care more about other matters like relaxing, being with neighbours, sitting and just watch...they are not so stress

2. They smile all the time and that make such a different...In Europe people do not smile as much, they are overwhelmed by work problems, money problem,marriage problems...they forget to smile.

3. Their children run half naked playing in the water, being curious about other creatures...they haven´t got the pressure of getting into the best school, best university, and trying to be the best.

the list can go on...

This is all I have to say.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Glauka

[kat]

Here is more thought on cultural differences.  It’s neither complex nor a light read, so if you have ever used the word pseudo-intellectual this might not be a fun post for you.  Writing stuff like this is one way I really get my kicks though - its fun to think about stuff, and I never know what I really think until I write it down.

A reader asked me to speculate as to why Asian society places less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake and places more value on practical matters that relate to status than western societies.  In this http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1316.htm article I considered there are more people in Asia with underdeveloped egos than in the west.  People aren’t forced by their parents, teachers, and peers, to be rigidly truthful, to develop a strong personal character, quite the opposite.  Students are encouraged not to make waves, to idly listen and parrot, to use other people’s work and to cheat on tests.  Pointing out faults in others, even criticizing their ideas is regarded negatively.  When there isn’t social pressure to be carefully considerate in ones logical arguments and carefully introspective and on guard for personal faults, a rich structure resting on honesty, openness, creativity, truth and social concern can’t develop.  As long as face holds higher value than personal development, the culture is doomed to backwardness, stuck in adolescence. 

The whole society has a fundamental flaw, at the root - all aims are towards status.  More people in the west have as their aims the joys of their pursuits, not merely the joys of the fruits of their pursuits as status.  More of us read for enjoyment as respect for the value of truth, more collect varied music or study art history or take five minutes to consider a sea shell for the joys and value of beauty.  More of us consider our fellows when we choose how loud should be our motorcycle muffler for the value of moral social engagement.  The value system is flawed in Asia, and this aborts the development of the individual and therefore the society.  Concern for face is an adolescent phase that denies growth, because status is seen as more beneficial than making required mistakes and painful admissions of faults and confronting others.  People have to be free to make fools of themselves to take off the straightjacket of unconsidered and inconsiderate values.  It is a necessary part of growing up.  Asia has tied itself down with its continued emphasis on social harmony through respect for face.  In Canada you are free to criticize openly and publicly, and this friction leads to greater and greater inquiry and expression, and personal development, and all the advances that rest on those.

But stating the problem doesn’t answer the question of why it is this way.  Why the culture is stuck in adolescence.  Traditional European culture has placed much more emphasis on status than the New World cultures in North America, famous for individuality.  North American cultural influence has been huge, we trade much with Europe, and together the movements towards a marriage of a European socialism and an American individualism is evolving in both continents.  Asia is still basically feudal. Indonesia is basically owned by a few family interests.  In Thailand connections are more important than skills.  The social bonds and social climbing are more pragmatic and necessary here - you have to choose your allegiances and guard your image carefully.  I see the emphasis on social bonds on the one hand or individuality on the other as a spectrum from Asia, to Europe, then the New World countries of the U.S., Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Obviously we need a marriage of these spectrums, keeping our respect for social bonds, while growing into greater and greater individuality. 

Asia puts more emphasis on face due to inertia and lack of social revolution.  Europe had its renaissance and the overthrowing of Monarchies, America had constitutional democratic revolution, then its Vietnam War protests, its feminist movement.  Cultural inertias were overcome by grand political movements.  Even the Copernican revolution in thought was partly political - the state, which was not separated from religion at the time, nearly killed the guy for saying that the earth revolved around the sun.  It isn’t safe to have grand political movements in Asia - you could be shot.  If you criticize a businessman in the press, you could be shot.  If you criticize the culture openly, you could suffer severe consequences.  I don’t know what precipitates social revolutions, but Asia hasn’t had theirs yet.  There is no counter culture, and starting one could be dangerous.  Without one, inertia will remain, as social and political revolution may be the only way for evolution on this society-wide scale. 

A society needs capitalism as its base - individuals free to choose their own methods of competing for resources, motivated in good measure by selfish ends.  And on top of that it needs structured rules of social interactions - government and laws and state organization.  The general people have to be involved in their governments in order for both capitalism and socialism to work.  Without that corruption turns the state into a collection of family interests - it becomes a more feudal society with the rich land barons and their serfs.  The U.S. is quickly going in that direction, and at the same time becoming more materialistic, but Asia was always feudal.  General and sophisticated political awareness and discussion seems a key to social change.  Some dissatisfaction will need to be sufficient to rally people for change and to empower them to be active in their own governance before face will loose its tremendous power.  If democratic lawful self governance is not possible, then you need connections for power, and connections are largely about allegiances and cultivating your image.  The cultural heroes will remain the well connected.  The road to success will stunt real success, as status alone is a hollow and alienated aim. 

Enough people have to be dissatisfied enough with the current state of affairs and feel empowered enough that they can band together and make a political change in order to overcome the barrier to conflict that face imposes.  Once rebels are seen as heroes, people can have role models that then stress a value other than status, and personal development is then freed from the straightjacket of adolescent concern with image.  Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr. were partial inventors of the individual, in society.  Before such grand rebels and revolutionaries, we accepted our place in our feudal society, did not look the King in the eye, and watched our image closely.

The power of inertia will keep Asia focused on face until there is strong enough dissatisfaction for social systems such as schooling or religion or women’s rights or mafia style corruption or under-regulated individual and corporate pollution, or labor rights, to start open public debate and criticism and reform.  Without rebels as heroes with real social and political power, it’s safer to play cover tunes than make a new musical style.  Better to fit in and not buck the system.

We don’t even have to think about these things in the west.  We grew up taking for granted the courage of our heroes.  Asia doesn’t have such heroes yet, and doesn’t know that it doesn’t have them. 

The spirit of National Public Radio and Public Television in the U.S. is reformist, plus there is strong civic spirit of taking delight in the community of ideas for their own sake.  It takes as its premise for being that public communication freed from commercial interest will be fuller and richer, less restricted by political and business interests, less a dumbed down sideshow of titillating sensationalism and the top 40 experience, and is a required part of a healthy society.  Canada has the CBC and Britain has the Beeb - both publicly funded radio shows of very high quality.  No one gets shot for expressing controversial or damaging views.  Listening to them makes you feel part of an informed caring community, and is fun.

Any city without a café or bar that has open mike night for storytelling, poetry readings and music is a city missing a strong sense of community of spirit.  We tell each other our stories, and that makes us connected and alive and growing.  If people aren’t reading or writing, participating in culture, the culture is backwards.

I’d speculate that any society with few reformist heroes and little public involvement in government will suffer a similar poverty of the soul, and would be curious to hear from folks familiar with Arab countries what’s going on there.  In communities with the greatest public involvement I’d expect to see the greatest attentions paid to the arts, truth (scientific, philosophical, meditative, psychological), and morals.  San Francisco and Boulder Colorado come to mind. 

I didn’t read that theory anywhere, it just occurred to me this moment.  It sounds right, and I hope it gains me a lot of face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WELL do you know what I like about Thailand people therefore culture that is lack in Europe?

1. People jobs are not the most important thing in their life therefore they care more about other matters like relaxing, being with neighbours, sitting and just watch...they are not so stress

2. They smile all the time and that make such a different...In Europe people do not smile as much, they are overwhelmed by work problems, money problem,marriage problems...they forget to smile.

3. Their children run half naked playing in the water, being curious about other creatures...they haven´t got the pressure of getting into the best school, best university, and trying to be the best.

the list can go on...

This is all I have to say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I agree with you Glauka. There are many things that I like here, more than the West. However, I'm always aware of a tradeoff. You discover new benefits or value, for the benefits you left behind.

That being said, while I don't agree with everything Jamman says in his post, I don't think he is far off base.

And to Girlx, I think your question is a good one. If I had to wing this question offhand, I'd say that Japan has far less corruption because they have a culture that is based on honesty and infused with shame if one does not uphold this social value. Also, I believe their work ethic is tied to this notion of shame, which is much more important than nepotism, unlike Thailand.

[chownah]

Not wanting to spend too much time on the details of the original post although there are alot of comments I could make I would like to sum up what I think is the major oversite in the post.....namely....the negative attributes that he suggests are found in Thai people are just as widely found throughout western cultures as well. In my experience the vast vast majority of Westerners place "less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake" and place "more value on practical matters that relate to status". You were using these quoted words to describe Asians....I think they equally apply to Westerners. I guess most PEOPLE are "stuck in adolescence" as you like to describe their condition.

I almost forgot....your term "poverty of the soul"...perhaps OP should do some soul searching.

Edited December 12, 2005 by chownah

[think_too_mut]

What a rubbish. Maybe it's not but it shows the author has not seen any education. Poor man, has he ended up in Thailand? What's he doing there now?

[Jai Dee]

This is a theme newbies (or Trolls) like to latch on to when first confronting Asia...

You got that in one Boony...

[Glauka]

I agree with you Kat. There are some tings that i don´t like about thailand culture the same with spanish culture. But I think that we need to be as critic with our culture as we are with other cultures.

[kat]

Yes, totally agree. Otherwise, we are hypocrites.

*edit - changed you for we, because I am talking in general and not personal terms.

Edited December 12, 2005 by kat

[Noel]

This is a theme newbies (or Trolls) like to latch on to when first confronting Asia...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got that in one Boony...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am somewhat surprised that 'john Krukowski' has not joined in.

Oh, perhaps he has...

[AlexLah]

Hey OP,

How many countries have you visited?

I have worked and visited more then 60 and I can tell you that in most of them bragging with a new (expensive) car or good looking GF, Rolex is common practice.

One of the concepts of face is actually a nice thing (not to embarres another in front of others for example).

Something that is forgotten in a lot of 'developed' countries.

Because in those 'developed' countries most of people try to find ways to let the other look bad hoping they get rewarded by exposing someones mistakes.

All those endless discussions of someone trying to convince others that you are wrong instead of finding a solution.

And I could go on about what is so wrong about Western culture.

We just have to find a way to intermix the good things of both.

My two cents for whatever it means.

Alex

[kat]

"We just have to find a way to intermix the good things of both."

Well stated, Alex. Although, I cannot tell a lie - sometimes this is ###### hard to do in Thailand even with the best of intentions.

That's my 1 cent, for better or worse.

[gburns57au]

Obviously forgot about the student riots that happened in recent history and left a lot of kids dead. Thailand has had its own political and social revolution in the past and plenty of it.

The issue of "face" in Asia is inherited through centuries and it is not so easy to get rid of.

Understanding "face" can be a big asset to a foriegner, especially those who wish to do business or work with Asians or even live successfully amongst them.

[sbk]

And I doubt the concept of face is restricted solely to the possession of material goods or one's status in society.

[Jai Dee]

This is a theme newbies (or Trolls) like to latch on to when first confronting Asia...

You got that in one Boony...

I am somewhat surprised that 'john Krukowski' has not joined in.

Oh, perhaps he has...

[stumonster]

i haven't had time to read through this whole post yet, but my immediate question is what about Japan, which has the same concept of face but is much more advanced than Thailand?

Probably much more socially advanced than most countries, not just thailand

japan and face ... bukkake comes to mind ... .. ok nefarious trolling effort..

the class structure is more of a problem in all societies than the issue of face - people need to learn that respect is earnt - not bestowed

[Jai Dee]

people need to learn that respect is earnt - not bestowed

Very good point stumonster... and Thai people know the difference too... believe you me.

"Face" has many facades... as some of you already know, you choose the face to wear to suit the occasion...

[Maigo6]

Haha Stumonster, yes, the Japanese certainly project a meaning of ' Face ' .

Edited December 12, 2005 by Maigo6

[meemiathai]

jamman,

I for think your post was excellent. Very very good. I agree with you 99% and the 1% is just something I have no experience with so I can't tell.(Like I haven't yet lived in any western countries nor Thailand)

I would say the things you described are exactly what is happening here in HK(not to mention China). And it is heading worse. And I have no doubt that Thailand is more or less the same(guess China is much worse) as had been described by a lot of members here. Have you experienced HK or China before, jamman?

I am very disappointed with the society I am living in. I can't use words as good as you to describe what it's like. A lot of people around me are soul-less. They accept a lot of wrong doings as if that's way it should be. They bow to people who are rich or in high positions and let them abuse their rights and truly believe(that's where the problem is) that should be the way. People take part in sports say for example football matches and are willing to use whatever dirty trick to win. What is the whole ###### point if it is not about enjoying the sports?(but forgot to mention, this includes farangs as well)

I have been to Canada once. I must mention that in one city called Edmonton, you just can't meet better people anywhere in the world. Every single person I met was like an angle. Genuine, honest and friendly. And what a co-incidence!

My father changed from a British national to a Canadian before he was killed in a TA there. At my age of 4. And I like that place too.

Anyway please keep posting.

[seonai]

Jaamman,

Thanks for posting something intelligent. Good on you. A decent debate at last.

Seonai

[seonai]

And most of what you said was true, don't listen to the prats who say you are new in Thailand. It's a fact, what you are saying is fact.

Seonai

[britmaveric]

And most of what you said was true, don't listen to the prats who say you are new in Thailand. It's a fact, what you are saying is fact.

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[meemiathai]

WELL do you know what I like about Thailand people therefore culture that is lack in Europe?

1. People jobs are not the most important thing in their life therefore they care more about other matters like relaxing, being with neighbours, sitting and just watch...they are not so stress

2. They smile all the time and that make such a different...In Europe people do not smile as much, they are overwhelmed by work problems, money problem,marriage problems...they forget to smile.

3. Their children run half naked playing in the water, being curious about other creatures...they haven´t got the pressure of getting into the best school, best university, and trying to be the best.

the list can go on...

This is all I have to say.

Glauka, these are also some of the things I like about here.

[Boggers]

The danger of focusing too much on face is that societal pressure is always on the verge of boiling over for some. The Japanese have a very high rate of suicide largely due to stress from fear of humiliation. There can be even a greater danger once people are removed from that environment and begin to act without any inhibition.

When I taught at unversity in Japan, one of the professors explained that the atrocities commited by the Japanese during WWII stemmed from the fact that soldiers were finally free from the confines of their tightly knit communities and became unleashed animals. They no longer had to worry about saving face and went to extreme measures to take advantage of the circumstances.

I don't think society in Thailand is anywhere near as regimented as that of Japan, but there are certainly common elements.